Pikachu

[redfeatherraven]

Guess that explains why I keep dying then, I keep going in default.

I'm still scrubbing hard over here, but that's to be expected.

I'm certain at least the broader advice from previous games applies, if the techs don't always, but is there any advice yet specifically for the 3DS side of things, or is it all still basics from prior games?

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

You'll need to relearn spacing as it doesn't seem to be as solid/static as other games. Learn how to TC/turn cancel grab for sure. You will need to completely learn Thunder over again from scratch. It is shorter, faster, and if you get a cloud sweetspot, it will spike the opponent down to you for them to get hit by the (possibly) strongest hitbox of thunder for a pretty good chance of an instant KO at higher percents.

If you manage to b-reverse thunder and get a cloud sweetspot, this means it may possibly be a guaranteed meteor spike.

Just theorycrafting here though, no absolutes or anything.

 

[Soul.]

I heard Pikachu's turn canceled grab has a lot of range. If this is true, then this will be huge.
And about B-reverse Thunder, it's probably going to need a lot of testing, since we really don't know if it is guaranteed to meteor smash in the air.

 

[Leaf.]

The hitboxes should be the same regardless of where Pikachu is standing. But thunder would be a really high spike to hit anyway, easy to react to and just recover from. Not that it's not useless, having an opponent at your level or under you make gimping so much easier, but I don't think it'll be a 100% reliable kill.

I'll be getting my hands on the full version for a bit on Friday and Saturday, but I won't have anything but CPUs to practice on. I'll also have several people with the demo with me this weekend as well, though, so is there something you guys would like tested that would be vs people (How reliable Bair/Fair keep people in for gimping purposes) or something that can just be done on the full version instead (QAC on slopes, etc)?

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

It'd be awesome if you could test every possible tech with good people. Cloud spiking, TC grabs, general thunder uses assuming your opponent can't absorb stuff, and other things. Just test the effectiveness of moves and which moves make the best combo potential.

I'm really liking ftilt. It's quick, it's got range, and it can send them really far out, and at high percents off the stage.

 

[Leaf.]

I'll be messing with a lot of stuff. x.x
Speaking of combo potential, has anyone else playing the demo noticed that hitting someone with the second part of Quick Attack sends them up a pretty good distance? CPUs haven't jumped out of it yet, so I can land what appear to be reliable upsmashes/nairs out of getting it. Just another thing to test this weekend, but everyone else should look at it too.

 

[redfeatherraven]

Ooo, that seems like something I can actually look into. I'll see what I can do in the morning.
Then someone more competent can find out why it's working! Everyone wins!

The new thunder is making me very, very sad. Partly it's just because all the CPUs seem to have learned where their air dodge button is, but beyond that it seems like you have to hit them with astonishing precision, and the effect outside of the cloud sweet spot has been underwhelming so far.

This could all be me, however.



Of course the scrub hates new Thunder. Just wait till you hear what I think of new Dsmash.

 

[Pikabunz]

No, you're right. The new thunder is garbage compared to Brawl thunder. It's still possible to ko off the top with it though.

 

[redfeatherraven]

Nice to be right, I suppose, even if it's only about "they changed it now it sucks."

Remember who's talking, but I would expect the cloud sweetspot would be an easy read without some downright Machiavellian setup, and I can't imagine a poke off the top without plenty of heat already heaped on. Would these impressions be accurate enough?

Also, and perhaps more importantly, does new Thunder have practical uses outside of a kill?

 

[Psyant]

New thunder is just different. It's harder to hit as a combo from anything, and you won't get many kills off the top anymore, but it can serve as a combo breaker against things like Sheik ftilt spam and overall you can throw it out much more in the neutral game thanks to it's faster speed and B-reversing. Plus you get the occasional spike/stage bounce spike into another move. It's also still good for throwing out just past the ledge to catch people recovering low and near the stage. Esam was using it pretty well in his matches against Wizzrobe earlier. Definitely not useless, it's just kinda different in it's usage now.

 

[redfeatherraven]

I really need to catch some of these matches.

Suspected the combo breaking usage, but was worried by the lackluster explosion radius we've got now. Good to know, though. Especially glad you mentioned the ftilt spam, because my best friend is in fact aiming to be a Shiek main, to my suave and reserved horror.

 

[Psyant]

Here's some good matches Esam played as Pikachu against Lucina and Sheik: http://www.twitch.tv/wizzzrobe/c/5142130?t=8m37s

He plays against Dog Hunt Dog as Pika a bit later in the video too (23:40ish).

Also, this was cool:

 

[redfeatherraven]

One, @ Psyant you are a homie. I've got an hour and a half to kill, I'm gonna review.

Two, I just now realized your avi is gogglechu, because I was not paying attention for some reason earlier. That is good for twice the homie points right off the bat.

Three, @ Leaf. , I've spent some quality time on the Quick Attack bit. The second direction for Quick Attack has some fairly significant knockback, by comparison to previous titles. However, the knockback takes a minute to be significant. Specifically I saw results on Mega Man around 70-80%, with distance equivalent to ftilt around 20-30% in distance and a nifty little arc. Looks like it has fair hitstun as well.

Sadly my Scrub Thumbs(TM) can't make much use of it, and I'm having trouble following up; the circle pad denies me precision so far, and although the CPU efforts are pretty promising I don't know if there's enough hitstun to counteract the lag at the end of the move against a human opponent.

Think I've been about as useful as I can be there, at least for now. Anyone more skilled looking to take up the torch?

 

[Leaf.]

Yeah CPUs have started to air dodge out of the second QA. definitely not gonna be able to get upsmash out of it. N-air still seems good for it, but I'll know starting tomorrow for sure. It doesn't start having that knockback until late, though, and by the time you get to a percent that N-air would kill, they'll be popping up too high to follow it up.

It can kill at 300% in sudden deaths, though.

 

[redfeatherraven]

You mean they're learning? Oh we're screwed.

The big problem I had was just that It seems like a predictable approach, especially with the first QA telegraphing the intent. Not to mention we've taught Skynet how to dodge it now. Maybe if you recovered to just above the ledge and jumped your opponent in a bad spot?

That'd be a hell of a way to decide a sudden death though.

 

[Leaf.]

It's really predictable. And honestly, a bit difficult to land a second QA. Anyone with decent reaction time can shield it if they see it coming out, so it's something that needs to be used pretty rarely.
Pika is going to have a lot of tech that requires surprising opponents, it looks like. Because nothing looks reliable right now. And that sucks for me because I wanna be flashy. :<

 

[redfeatherraven]

You have lightning in your veins, all yo' moves are flashy.

Seriously though. Question. What do we have in terms of mindgames? Anything yet?

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

TC grabs. QALC maybe. Other than that, unless custom moves are tournament legal, there's not much.

You might be able to play mindgames with ftilt if you can get them to fear it at higher percents, shield, then get a free grab.

 

[Choice Scarf]

I'm sure stuff like that will develop over time, but things from previous games that should still apply:

• B-reverse thunder jolt shield pressure or b-turnaround thunder jolt retreat/reset to neutral
  
• Utilt vs uair OoS when opponent is behind you
  
• Fair autocancel to grab or Usmash follow-up
• RAR Bair/Nair vs RAR Uair
• SHFF aerials vs tomahawks (applies to all chars but still)

And based on what we know about the sm4sh mechanics so far, maybe:

• Pivot grabs vs pivot tilts/smashes
• Dash attack (since it's actually good now) vs dash grab vs dash and shield
• Vectoring in vs vectoring away when receiving combos (positional mix-up)

Lack of dash-dancing, wavedashing, and QAC means a lot of positional mix-ups are gone though, which sucks since I feel like that has always been one of Pika's strengths, though I guess QALC should help a little. Custom move counterpicking would be sick, though we shouldn't base anything off of that until they are legal if at all. Varying aggression vs defensive play (with dtilts and ftilts) can always help if done unpredictably.

Or you know, pretend to be a noob and spam thunder or skull bash

 

[redfeatherraven]

Oh come now. I'm not pretending.

Seriously though. Obliged on the help, I'll try to make y'all proud.

 

[Leaf.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZPxLLaL4N8

Pika's lack of kill power just continues to hurt the character. The differences aren't that big at higher percents, but still.

 

[Psyant]

Goes both ways, Esam very nearly killed Sheik at 70% here with an Fsmash because he was at 130% and "enraged". The question right now is whether every character gets the same boost at the same %s, or if lighter characters get bigger damage boosts at lower % than heavyweights. If the damage boost is the same regardless of the character than the mechanic favours heavies that can live longer.

 

[Leaf.]

Quick Attack Cancel for sure works on slanted ground.
Any sort of slant to the ground allows you to jump out of Quick Attack.

 

[Pikabunz]

I knew it would. That's why it worked in the video of the Wii U demo. Pilot Wings for #1 counter pick.

Thanks for confirming this, Leaf.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

@Leaf 's got me hyped.

Wii U's QAC hopes too real.

 

[Jmacz]

The one thing I'm noticing is I just can't pick him up and use him like I have in the past. For me Pikachu has always been the one guy I'm good with right off the bat, and he's probably my worst right now out of the 5 on the demo. I know I'm probably trying to play him like I have in the past and it's just not working. I get the feeling everyone else is to, once we all shake off the cobwebs I'm sure Pikachu will look much better.

 

[Leaf.]

Anything else people can thing to test?
I have this right here for about a day.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I'm enjoying this character a lot more then I thought I would be. With the lack of shield stun in this game, you can punish an even wider variety of things then before with his mobility. Seriously, that dash attack is hilariously good as a punish.

 

[Soul.]

Anything else people can thing to test?
I have this right here for about a day.

Assuming you have the full version, how are the custom moves? Are they useful?

 

[NobleClamtasm]

It's really predictable. And honestly, a bit difficult to land a second QA. Anyone with decent reaction time can shield it if they see it coming out, so it's something that needs to be used pretty rarely.
Pika is going to have a lot of tech that requires surprising opponents, it looks like. Because nothing looks reliable right now. And that sucks for me because I wanna be flashy. :<

I've been playing around with QA as well, and I see lots of potential. The second hit pops them up quite a fair bit, even at moderate percentages which can lead to cool stuff like aerial follow ups at low percentages, and air dodge frame traps at higher %. I can see this exceptionally useful in closing gaps against keepaway characters. In his game, projectiles typically leave the character vulnerable for a brief period, which can be more than enough for a properly executed QA to punish.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Where is the sweetspot on F-smash? Is it actually in the larger ball of electricity so that we can finally get rewarded for spacing it properly? Or is it a time based sort of hitbox?

 

[Soul.]

Where is the sweetspot on F-smash? Is it actually in the larger ball of electricity so that we can finally get rewarded for spacing it properly? Or is it a time based sort of hitbox?

It's on the tip of the move. To make it simple, yes, it's in the larger ball of electricity.

 

[Pikabunz]

The very tip is where it's weakest. The middle is the sweet spot. The damage from closest to Pika to the tip is 15, 18, 12.

 

[Soul.]

Wait. I thought the tip was the sweetspot. Guess I gotta go check on the demo.

 

[Leaf.]

Assuming you have the full version, how are the custom moves? Are they useful?

The system I'm using doesn't have any of Pika's customs unlocked, and I probably won't spend too long tying to unlock them.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Yeah customs will take forever, it's probably not worth it.

Middle sweetspot for F-smash is at least better than it was before for spacing. Feels like U-smash's sweetspot is still up close though (or maybe its above?)

How do you guys think edgeguarding will work? I think the only thing that sends people at a low-ish angle is d-tilt. Maybe d-smash but I never have enough range for it to work

 

[NobleClamtasm]

Yeah customs will take forever, it's probably not worth it.

Middle sweetspot for F-smash is at least better than it was before for spacing. Feels like U-smash's sweetspot is still up close though (or maybe its above?)

How do you guys think edgeguarding will work? I think the only thing that sends people at a low-ish angle is d-tilt. Maybe d-smash but I never have enough range for it to work

I think fair is a really good option for edgeguarding now that SDI has been nerfed. Intercept your opponent with fair and once it connects, you can fastfall off the stage to drag him under

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

How do you guys think edgeguarding will work? I think the only thing that sends people at a low-ish angle is d-tilt. Maybe d-smash but I never have enough range for it to work

I think it'll work similar to the way it has before. Jolt is still great, and Thunder just needs to be relearned for the timing. B-reversed Thunder is still in as well as skull bash's increased speed making it safer to chase offstage since you can skull bash + QA back whenever you need to. For the opponents less experienced with Pika's MU, edge kills with fsmash can prove to be useful when timed well.

 

[VirusEXE]

Just wanted to let you know that while playing the demo, I noticed that at ~100+ %, upthrow -> Thunder works really well. Upthrow puts the player in just the right position to get sweetspotted by the cloud hitbox, spiking them back down into pikachu and the stronger hitbox for Thunder.

 

[Choice Scarf]

But the CPU's always air dodge before the bolt hits. There's just not enough hitstun on your launcher move at the reasonable percents. And even when it does connect they always fly in the wrong direction for me.

Pulling it off though does rack up about 30%, which is ridiculous considering this is Pika we're talking about.