Meta Pikachu Metagame Discussion

[Soul.]

I'd like to know what do you all think about the Mii Brawler MU now after that Twitch stream from days ago. That MU is really weird, or at least, seems to be one. Helicopter Kick is ridiculous if anything; the small Mii has insane air speed. How are we supposed to get after them?

 

[hell-dew]

Is Dair safe on his shield?

i say that we have to play mario's game because most people beat mario by zoning him out. pikachu cannot do that. If you try to camp mario, he just gets stage control, you end up in the corner,and he gets kill setups and lots of damage on you.

i also think mario gets more out of his hits than we do, unless i am doing something wrong. I juggle him with uair and try to bait out his nair once I know the combo is going to end, but since we cannot take mario to a stage without platforms, he gets away free eventually (and without getting hit too hard).

ESAM where do you think we should take mario anyway? (the mario mains in my region ALL ban FD and smashville)

Dair isnt safe on shield also thank god esams back i was kinda sad to say that the best pika out there might have been nakat... *cringe* Ahem moving on

Dair isnt safe on shield but it works insanely nicely against a lot of marios hit boxes Dtilt actaully boxes him out really nicely to also you have zero buisness using randy QAs out of neutral mario can punish that crap for free and our combo game is way better then his we can also break out of his combos with Nair Foot stools and Thunder cancels pretty hard.


also you can clash his up B with Nair which makes dealing with him off stage a lot easier

Now my question is WTF do we do in the luigi MU i feel like off stage we should have our change but i dunno how to deal with him yet

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I actually don't like BF in that MU for once since you want to be able to threaten with thunder out of combos. I would probably go to Duckhunt

 

[Hoenn]

In the mario MU? If not, what stages outside Fd and SV should i take mario?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

>says duckhunt in post

Duckhunt is good, castle siege probably is as well.

 

[Togii]

Hey Pikachu mains! The Kirby boards are discussing the Pikachu matchup right now, and we'd value any input you guys have. Here's a link: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...sion-week-2-fox-pikachu-5-19-25.400052/page-2

 

[Hoenn]

Castle siege is not legal much in my scene. we have BF SV FD TaC lylat duck hunt delphino halberd, but I have one weekly i could use castle siege at, i guess

not sure where to take mario at the bigger events.

Also sorry if it seems like I am dragging on the mario discussion too much. mario is the bane of my existence and at the last monthly we had, I lost to 2 mario mains (both 2-0)

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Castle Siege isn't even a remotely bannable stage the hell?

I mean Pika is good against Mario on all stages pretty much, I just don't like BF. Everywhere else is pretty good. If you are losing because he is outplaying you that is more than just the stages.

 

[Hoenn]

I just end up not being able to hold onto my stock. I do not know how to engage mario without getting usmashed....

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Just don't jump into it.

 

[Hoenn]

ESAM do you have any examples of the MU that i could watch? I think I am understanding what you mean to an extent

So I should just dtilt and play a bit patient and wait for him to do things when I am at kill percent? Shield if I am too scared, and roll away seems like it would be good? Right?

I know you mentioned retreating fair and dair being good for this mu, but I am assuming that is not smart to use at kill percent?

 

[Thor]

Castle Siege isn't even a remotely bannable stage the hell?

I mean Pika is good against Mario on all stages pretty much, I just don't like BF. Everywhere else is pretty good. If you are losing because he is outplaying you that is more than just the stages.

People have transformation johns [saving people who are otherwise dead and KOing people due to the transformation leaving them offstage], are ridiculously conservative stage selectors sometimes, walkoffs lead to Pikachu bthrow salt [heh]. These are reasons I can think of for Castle Siege being banned [though I agree it should be legal].

I admittedly am not very good at Pika-Mario either, but working on it, and will apply your advice. It's like the only MU where I really understand when I should actually be dtilting [that and maybe vs Sheik].

ALSO, random question that'll hopefully take very little time from you: I watched you vs Nick Riddle's ZSS and you don't get hit by the finisher on up+B a few times... how does one DI that move to not get hit by the finisher? Do we DI toward ZSS? Away? Up? Do we need tap DI or is holding a direction sufficient?

[The match in question if you are wondering where I watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKOBxT8wWxI ]

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

The ZSS finisher all depends on where she starts it and the L/R 50:50.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Thank you Thor for a pretty much perfect explanation on Kirby vs Pika.
Very detailed and very interesting and you were pretty much on point, we thank you so much for your help.
Even though you guys have the better mobility and options, we can still hold our ground, so thanks for a basic solid 60:40

 

[q_e_d]

ESAM, you said on twitter you figured out the matchup against Sheik, so... how can we beat her, what do we do against her SH Fair in particular and how good do you think the matchup is overall?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I'm assuming you can Perfect Pivot forward and u-tilt it since it will mess up their spacing if they are trying to hit you.

 

[Soul.]

lol oh wait, my post got ignored. Weird... I guess it doesn't matter much because almost no one knows the Mii Brawler MU. Maybe.
Either that, or it's not common. Ah well.
Miis in general are weird MUs imo, but I'd like to be proven wrong.

 

[Thor]

I'm assuming you can Perfect Pivot forward and u-tilt it since it will mess up their spacing if they are trying to hit you.

I have to actually learn that tech...? To the lab with me I guess...

Maybe learning to use it will help my microspacing, but I tried for a few days and doing it was tough to say the least. I guess this is just the technical side of Smash 4 rearing its head [unless I just figure out how to compensate otherwise... which is likely difficult if not impossible].

The ZSS finisher all depends on where she starts it and the L/R 50:50.

So... do I normally tap down, or do I tap away, or do I have to play a guessing game [and if guessing game, can I at least get a brief description of my options]? Also, is just holding a direction enough, or do I always have to smash DI it [obviously SDI is better, but is it a must]?

 

[Antonykun]

lol oh wait, my post got ignored. Weird... I guess it doesn't matter much because almost no one knows the Mii Brawler MU. Maybe.
Either that, or it's not common. Ah well.
Miis in general are weird MUs imo, but I'd like to be proven wrong.

If it makes you feel any better there wan't much discussion for when I talked about Wordspider
Miis get no love

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I literally hold a direction lol I don't tap at all. What is SDI

 

[Knighto]

How do you deal with DK's custom up b? I can definitely be DKs without customs, but once customs are turned on, they seem to be able to use up b as a safe option for pretty much anything. I end up just having to shield it every time because if I try to attack it I just get swept up in the wind box. What's the trick to beat it?

 

[Hoenn]

I may have to do further testing, but I am pretty sure you can punish it Oos with quick attack at certain spacings.

I like to beat it with jolts if they come from the ledge, i will have to do more testing.

don't let DK on battlefield or delphino though...

My advice does not mean much though, I don't have too much experience, just wait for what the others say, but that is my take on it

 

[phili]

As someone who plays DK as a secondary, I'd say you're doing the right thing banning battlefield and delfino. DK is really good on lylat too though so you should be very comfortable with that stage if you're going to play against a DK.

As for dealing with that up B, I find that once you realize that you really can't punish it, then you'll be ok. Basically none of DK's moveset is safe other than that up B (assuming it is platform cancelled). So try shielding the up B and not punishing it, and focus on punishing basically anything else DK does. You might be able to punish the up B sometimes, but it's not worth trying and then eating an up tilt and dying.

Hope this helps

 

[Hoenn]

Yo guys, any tips for walling out offensive falcons?
I know that retreating fair is REALLY good in the MU, but i have no idea what to mix that up with... Especially since i can't retreating fair forever

 

[Jiggly]

We at the puff boards are now discussing the yellow mouse himself. It would be great if you could come give your input on the MU!!! ^_^ http://smashboards.com/threads/poke...atchup-thread-discussing-pik-a-chuuuu.384478/

 

[RunawayPanda]

Yo guys, any tips for walling out offensive falcons?
I know that retreating fair is REALLY good in the MU, but i have no idea what to mix that up with... Especially since i can't retreating fair forever

Try tripping them up with a D tilt, since you know they will want to get in with that dash grab
Bait out an aerial grab them and gimping falcon is really really easy.
Make sure to crouch a lot since you can duck under some attack and really importantly you can duck under the grab!
Just don't let them get in on you since we die really early to falcon

 

[phili]

What do my fellow Pikachu mains do for edgeguarding when they are facing a character that either has invincibility or super armor during their recovery moves? Characters like this include King Dedede, Sheik, Mario, along with other characters.

A lot of my kills normally come from bair, fair, or nair off stage, and therefore I find it much harder to net kills on characters that have invincibility or armor on their up B's.

 

[hell-dew]

again with mario just use Nair you can intercept his Up B with Nair. Shiek i just toss jolts at TBH or go for the one frame ledge vulnerability

 

[Rideae]

One matchup I'm not to sure about the odds but I personally really dislike is Luigi. I don't know if there is a section here about that mu so I'm going to talk about it a little bit. I don't know a lot about it, I'm just sharing what I know.

The main thing you have to do when playing against Luigi (at least in my case) is respect his down b. It has too much priority to challenge in the air. You might as well just wait for it to be over and punish the end lag. That's my main problem when facing a Luigi.

Another thing is; don't go rushing in with quick attacks as much as you normally would. Don't approach a whole lot with quick attack on Luigi because of his nair (and down b) and you can't really combo quick attack into other things such as nair or up air because at most percents you'll just get a nair to the face. Sometimes it trades but it's not worth it in my opinion.

And another thing is you can't really break out of Luigi's air combos with nair, especially from his dthrow combos. They're just too fast. Maybe every now and then but most of the time you'll be unable to.
That's about all the cons I know of the matchup so far, so now I'll talk about some of the pros.

Probably the best thing going for Pikachu in this matchup is the fact that you can heavily exploit Luigi's recovery. A simple bair or a well timed down b will gimp Luigi most of the time. Even a thunderjolt gimp will work. Just be careful when he uses the down b because sometimes it can stage spike you if you go that deep to gimp him.

In my opinion Pika might have a slight advantage when in neutral, even without the option of approaching with quick attack sometimes. The reason for that is because thunderjolts travel farther than the fireballs. If you can space them correctly then Luigi will still have to approach you. I don't think either has a noticeable advantage between their airials in neutral.

I will add to this post whenever I find out more helpful information about the Luigi matchup. I am in no way stating this as fact when playing against Luigi, I'm just stating this off of personal experience, so I am sorry if some of this is incorrect.

 

[Rideae]

What do my fellow Pikachu mains do for edgeguarding when they are facing a character that either has invincibility or super armor during their recovery moves? Characters like this include King Dedede, Sheik, Mario, along with other characters.

A lot of my kills normally come from bair, fair, or nair off stage, and therefore I find it much harder to net kills on characters that have invincibility or armor on their up B's.

You kinda have to respect DDD's super armor, since none if Pika's airials can really hit it out of armor. What you can do though, is if DDD lands on stage from his up b, you can full hop fair to up smash or whatever you want to do after fair for a punish. But there's not really anything I know of that you can do if he sweet spots the ledge. For a Sheik you can try just hitting her with a nair before she vanishes. You'll have to read it a bit but it's still possible. And for Mario? I'm actually not too sure. I think if you just go off stage and nair it trades with the up b but I'm not completely sure about that.

 

[O Hobbit]

Bair is great for edguarding DDD and Mario. If you manage to trade your bair with Mario's up-b you'll mini-spike him, which will kill him. As for DDD, sometimes multi-hit moves are able to beat his armor, so you should try this or respect his recover and then punish.

To edguard sheik you need to hit her before or after vanish. If she has no jump, try to hit her with thunder jolt before she up-b. If you hit her this might be enough to kill her. You also can edguard her by hiting slightly under the ledge before she appears. You can try a thunder jolt, thunder, skull bash, bair, nair... really, you can try everything, but the timing is really strict. I think you have only one frame to hit her that way, so long hit box come in hand.

 

[phili]

Y What you can do though, is if DDD lands on stage from his up b, you can full hop fair to up smash or whatever you want to do after fair for a punish.

Idk why I didn't think of this before. I normally tried to run in, then block those dumb stars and do an upsmash, but it rarely worked. Jumping over the stars and doing a FF fair > upsmash or grab seems like a much easier punish. Thanks dude

 

[RunawayPanda]

Idk why I didn't think of this before. I normally tried to run in, then block those dumb stars and do an upsmash, but it rarely worked. Jumping over the stars and doing a FF fair > upsmash or grab seems like a much easier punish. Thanks dude

If you want to shield the stars just space it right and you should be able to get a grab or maybe an aerial

 

[Hoenn]

I have actually done testing and lots of lab work on the d3 edge guard game.
Nothing we have beats though his super armor, even at 999%, other than thunder (the thunder may have caught his 1 frame of ledge grab vulnerability, so this is actually questionable)

The only way to beat his super armor is to hit the 1 frame window on his ledge grab.

D3 does not have super armor during the startup of his UP B, so you have to start pressuring him from really low.
If D3 is coming from high or around stage level, try to push him away with your aerials and traps (Don't know the best way to do this)

If he recovers low and goes for the super safe UP B, Jump offstage with jolts, aiming the jolts for the soonest possible place that he could up B, then fair him once you get to him.
This is the only thing that I have found useful in edge guarding D3.

IMO, the options you have to edge guard D3 are as follows.
1. Play the ledge trump game (You can quick attack to instant snap the ledge, which makes this even better)
2. Respect his offstage game, his recover is VERY hard to deal with
3. Try to catch his 1 frame of ledge grab vulnerability with a long lasting hitbox like thunder (this is easy since his up B does not have a hitbox, and you can react to the startup on his UP B, you could use Bair, dair, nair, and jolt too)
4. Do the edge guard game that I listed above

Just remember that D3 can keep us on the ledge easier than we can. So we do not want to let him back to the stage while being offstage ourselves.

 

[Rideae]

Idk why I didn't think of this before. I normally tried to run in, then block those dumb stars and do an upsmash, but it rarely worked. Jumping over the stars and doing a FF fair > upsmash or grab seems like a much easier punish. Thanks dude

No problem! Feel free to add me and play me anytime: Estriker5

 

[Rucent]

Hey everyone! The Sonic MU thread is currently discussing the Sonic vs Pikachu Match Up. It will be greatly appreciated if anyone here Quick Attack over there and give us any input on how we can combat the Electric Mouse Pokemon.

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...chapter-6-pikachu.390575/page-5#post-19294355

"Sonic uses Extreme Speed! Sonic has gone back to Match Up Zone."

 

[isaiah :)]

I have actually done testing and lots of lab work on the d3 edge guard game.
Nothing we have beats though his super armor, even at 999%, other than thunder (the thunder may have caught his 1 frame of ledge grab vulnerability, so this is actually questionable)

The only way to beat his super armor is to hit the 1 frame window on his ledge grab.

D3 does not have super armor during the startup of his UP B, so you have to start pressuring him from really low.
If D3 is coming from high or around stage level, try to push him away with your aerials and traps (Don't know the best way to do this)

If he recovers low and goes for the super safe UP B, Jump offstage with jolts, aiming the jolts for the soonest possible place that he could up B, then fair him once you get to him.
This is the only thing that I have found useful in edge guarding D3.

IMO, the options you have to edge guard D3 are as follows.
1. Play the ledge trump game (You can quick attack to instant snap the ledge, which makes this even better)
2. Respect his offstage game, his recover is VERY hard to deal with
3. Try to catch his 1 frame of ledge grab vulnerability with a long lasting hitbox like thunder (this is easy since his up B does not have a hitbox, and you can react to the startup on his UP B, you could use Bair, dair, nair, and jolt too)
4. Do the edge guard game that I listed above

Just remember that D3 can keep us on the ledge easier than we can. So we do not want to let him back to the stage while being offstage ourselves.

could you not punish his landing with a double jump to Dair ?

 

[Equi]

Does anyone have any advice on Yoshi? I seem to get stomped by a lot of the Japanese Yoshi's online. Maybe it'd be different without the lag but I have a lot of trouble with this matchup with Pika. What should we be focusing on (advantage wise) in this MU?

 

[isaiah :)]

Does anyone have any advice on Yoshi? I seem to get stomped by a lot of the Japanese Yoshi's online. Maybe it'd be different without the lag but I have a lot of trouble with this matchup with Pika. What should we be focusing on (advantage wise) in this MU?

well sad to say, it may be the lag, the issue with playing pikachu online it he needs a little more precision to play then yoshi, i mean, i dont know if you just aren't good in the match up but lag is for sure one of the issues especially when fighting someone like yoshi

 

[Equi]

well sad to say, it may be the lag, the issue with playing pikachu online it he needs a little more precision to play then yoshi, i mean, i dont know if you just aren't good in the match up but lag is for sure one of the issues especially when fighting someone like yoshi

I see. I seem to do well in other MUs but definitely struggle with this one and Luigi/Mario online.

In these matchups I try to space with dtilt more. Lag might have something to do with it. But do you have any advice for the matchup regardless?