Meta Pikachu Metagame Discussion

[phili]

Anyone have any advice on edgeguarding villager? The top player in my area is a villager main and I am able to beat him sometimes and can hold my own for most of the matchup. But I find when he is off stage that I can't do the normal run off bair/fair/nair edgeguards that I do against most characters. This is mostly because of villager's great recovery and the wall of rockets he puts out while recovering.

Should I just stay on stage and shoot t-jolts or should I go offstage anyway? Someone with matchup knowledge please let me know

 

[Megamang]

Is he trying to return to the stage, or is he a custom villager who is only trying to return to the ledge?

 

[LumpyGravy]

The thunder wave custom is a good option in the Villager matchup because it gives us another method of killing against a character that can't really be edge guarded.

However, if they're running the custom Villager strategy of camping the ledge with extreme balloon trip and the trip sapling, I prefer regular thunder jolt because you can shoot them from a very safe distance and they'll crawl down the ledge and hit Villager, a position where Villager is unassailable against most other characters.

Pikachu does very well against that particular strategy and in the matchup in general, in fact it's one of the reasons I decided to work on having Pikachu as a secondary.

Villager's projectile barrage is very potent at controlling horizontal space, but the beautiful thing about thunder jolt is its flexibility in the sense that you can fire them from a position where you're completely out of harm's way from Villager's stream of projectiles. You can outcamp Villager this way because Pikachu has the tools to punish Villager if he tries to approach.

The thing about the trip sapling is that the stage control it gives Villager completely shuts out so much of the cast, but quick attack almost completely ignores it as a factor.

Quick Attack <3

 

[phili]

Is he trying to return to the stage, or is he a custom villager who is only trying to return to the ledge?

It's a non-custom villager, and it's both. When I knock him off stage, I find it very hard to edgeguard him and complete the kill. Also, this player loves to jump on the ledge and just camp there with rockets, fairs, and bairs. Normally when he does this, i just run away and shoot t-jolts at him. The main problem is just not being able to kill him during his recovery

 

[Ookami Hajime]

Hi there. I'm MS_Ookami, a consistent Pikachu from Orlando, Florida.
I'd like to voice my opinion on the first few MUs discussed.

Regarding Pikachu vs Link:
While Link has a disjointed hitbox with his sword, Pikachu doesn't struggle against it as much as he does with other characters such as Marth in previous iterations or Shulk.
Pikachu has the speed to penetrate Link's camp game very well, and Pikachu wins at close quarters very dominantly. Our offstage game against Link is still stellar and we can use it to abuse his recovery game, much like before. We juggle Link very well and we have an option for just about any physical move that connects with our shield.
Link has a superior camp game and a disjoint as well as anti-juggle tools such as his d-air and bombs, which makes it difficult to keep him in the air. A well spaced Link with a solid camp game also makes it very difficult for Pikachu to stay at close quarters with him.
I say the MU is 55:45

Rosalina is tricky. Through personal experience, I have never lost to Rosalina in tournament.
Pikachu is fast and breaks through the wall-like defensive playstyle that is popular with Rosalina players. QA is great in this MU, allowing us to quickly rack up damage off of small conversions. Rosalina also has a very big hit box, combined with being floaty AND light, which makes ridiculously easy to juggle with our already amazing u-air. B-air makes quick work of her recovery and forces panicky Rosa players to recover over the stage with strong punishes. Dash attack can knock Luma off the stage from the very middle.
On the other side, Pikachu is also very light and is susceptible to dying at extremely low percents to Luma u-air. Luma punishes very hard when they have the read on QA as well. Luma acts as a shield and blocks thunder jolts, which is one of our most reliable approach options, and the brick wall that Luma presents with jab cancels makes it very difficult for Pikachu to get past it.
I say it's even. This is a tournament match of me vs one of the Rosa's in this region.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvawneeoWhY

 

[LumpyGravy]

It's a non-custom villager, and it's both. When I knock him off stage, I find it very hard to edgeguard him and complete the kill. Also, this player loves to jump on the ledge and just camp there with rockets, fairs, and bairs. Normally when he does this, i just run away and shoot t-jolts at him. The main problem is just not being able to kill him during his recovery

The only way Villager can be edge guarded is by stage spiking him into the blast zone. Edge guarding isn't the optimal way of killing Villager, which is weird for Pikachu since it's usually his go-to method of closing out stocks, but it doesn't necessarily make it a harder matchup imo.

 

[Thor]

Hi there. I'm MS_Ookami, a consistent Pikachu from Orlando, Florida.
I'd like to voice my opinion on the first few MUs discussed.

Regarding Pikachu vs Link:
While Link has a disjointed hitbox with his sword, Pikachu doesn't struggle against it as much as he does with other characters such as Marth in previous iterations or Shulk.
Pikachu has the speed to penetrate Link's camp game very well, and Pikachu wins at close quarters very dominantly. Our offstage game against Link is still stellar and we can use it to abuse his recovery game, much like before. We juggle Link very well and we have an option for just about any physical move that connects with our shield.
Link has a superior camp game and a disjoint as well as anti-juggle tools such as his d-air and bombs, which makes it difficult to keep him in the air. A well spaced Link with a solid camp game also makes it very difficult for Pikachu to stay at close quarters with him.
I say the MU is 55:45

Rosalina is tricky. Through personal experience, I have never lost to Rosalina in tournament.
Pikachu is fast and breaks through the wall-like defensive playstyle that is popular with Rosalina players. QA is great in this MU, allowing us to quickly rack up damage off of small conversions. Rosalina also has a very big hit box, combined with being floaty AND light, which makes ridiculously easy to juggle with our already amazing u-air. B-air makes quick work of her recovery and forces panicky Rosa players to recover over the stage with strong punishes. Dash attack can knock Luma off the stage from the very middle.
On the other side, Pikachu is also very light and is susceptible to dying at extremely low percents to Luma u-air. Luma punishes very hard when they have the read on QA as well. Luma acts as a shield and blocks thunder jolts, which is one of our most reliable approach options, and the brick wall that Luma presents with jab cancels makes it very difficult for Pikachu to get past it.
I say it's even. This is a tournament match of me vs one of the Rosa's in this region.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvawneeoWhY

I think Pikachu beats Rosalina slightly - we obviously beat Rosalina solo, and T-jolt means she has to approach [we can punish her absorbing move although sometimes the t-jolt actually hits us away while it's being absorbed] while Luma dies easily to dash attack, dsmash [or fsmash although that's less common], and even landing bairs. Rosalina is also highly susceptible to uthrow thunder - I'm pretty sure that even if she DIs, Luma is still hit by the Thunder sweetspot, which is a nice chunk of damage and can KO Luma depending on her percent. I'm pretty sure it'll always pop her up enough to at least then usmash or fsmash her.

We outspace jab cancels with fsmash. Our crouch can apparently duck Rosalina's nair. Dtilt might outrange jab cancels as well, and one strategy that actually can work against ridiculously campy Rosalina and Luma players is to just outcamp them - Luma blocks t-jolt, but she has a limited health bar, so you can t-jolt a bunch to KO Luma [alongside some other moves usually] then go in on Rosalina.

 

[Hoenn]

Another thing we can abuse in the MU is the hitlag that luma creates.
Rosalina cannot do a normal get up off the ledge safely like most characters can.

If you fsmash, luma will create TONS of active frames and it will catch Rosalina in the process.
In other words, if rosalina has luma, you can VERY effectively cover the normal ledge get up by using Fsmash.

Ex. https://youtu.be/joNnFqR12_g?t=11m19s

Also don't use this video for MU reference, I was not very good at the MU back then, I am just using that small portion of the video for reference

 

[Megamang]

Another thing we can abuse in the MU is the hitlag that luma creates.
Rosalina cannot do a normal get up off the ledge safely like most characters can.

If you fsmash, luma will create TONS of active frames and it will catch Rosalina in the process.
In other words, if rosalina has luma, you can VERY effectively cover the normal ledge get up by using Fsmash.

Ex. https://youtu.be/joNnFqR12_g?t=11m19s

Also don't use this video for MU reference, I was not very good at the MU back then, I am just using that small portion of the video for reference

Holy **** this is amazing. Thank you.


Does Rosaluma have any way to make Luma do other **** besides that? I'm not totally sure about her mechanics.

 

[Hoenn]

I have not done much testing with this, but we could use luma to help us cover spot dodges, but I also do not know if using luma for that is an optimal way to cover a spot dodge lol

 

[Ookami Hajime]

I think Pikachu beats Rosalina slightly - we obviously beat Rosalina solo, and T-jolt means she has to approach [we can punish her absorbing move although sometimes the t-jolt actually hits us away while it's being absorbed] while Luma dies easily to dash attack, dsmash [or fsmash although that's less common], and even landing bairs. Rosalina is also highly susceptible to uthrow thunder - I'm pretty sure that even if she DIs, Luma is still hit by the Thunder sweetspot, which is a nice chunk of damage and can KO Luma depending on her percent. I'm pretty sure it'll always pop her up enough to at least then usmash or fsmash her.

We outspace jab cancels with fsmash. Our crouch can apparently duck Rosalina's nair. Dtilt might outrange jab cancels as well, and one strategy that actually can work against ridiculously campy Rosalina and Luma players is to just outcamp them - Luma blocks t-jolt, but she has a limited health bar, so you can t-jolt a bunch to KO Luma [alongside some other moves usually] then go in on Rosalina.

I actually wanted to inch forward and say Pikachu wins it, but I thought most of you would be opposed to that idea, haha.
It's been a long time, Thor. I'm glad to see you still bringing knowledge to the Pikachu forums.

 

[Megamang]

I'd like to add, when she is in the air you shouldn't try and do some fancy QA stuff, especially from above, unless you are completely sure you will not be anywhere near her massive u-air hitbox. That is a good way to die way early, and then you are really behind because Rosaluma can slow the match down a lot if she wants, and then she can avoid your kill setups, and then she has rage, and you are back to step one.


If she sends luma out to do her dirty work with neutral B, I like to fullhop a Tjolt at her and then use the time she is reacting to land and damage luma. Is this viable?

 

[Thor]

I'd like to add, when she is in the air you shouldn't try and do some fancy QA stuff, especially from above, unless you are completely sure you will not be anywhere near her massive u-air hitbox. That is a good way to die way early, and then you are really behind because Rosaluma can slow the match down a lot if she wants, and then she can avoid your kill setups, and then she has rage, and you are back to step one.


If she sends luma out to do her dirty work with neutral B, I like to fullhop a Tjolt at her and then use the time she is reacting to land and damage luma. Is this viable?

If you mean while she's charing neutral B you FH tjolt, I recommend SH t-jolt - someone re-test this, but I'm almost positive t-jolt stuffs Luma entirely [that is, I think it damages her and halts her motion], and SH lets you fade back if she's doing it at a range that makes you uncomfortable, while making the t-jolt block for you on the way down so that her neutral B can't hit you in lag [whereas with a fullhop, you have to land often without t-jolt protecting you if she times it well]. Also probably doesn't work with customs if there's a teleporting one, since I think there is... [I'm not familiar with customs since I don't have my setup on me outside of a 3DS and we weren't using them for a while + finals now and no events = no incentive to learn... but with finals done at the end of today (Tuesday) and going back home where we have customs, I'll learn, so no worries - and yes I know about HSB].

If it stuffs the Luma as well as I think, after the t-jolt connects, she can star-bit, throw an attack, or recall Luma. In the last two situations, fsmash outranges them and should be safe [or you fsmash the air on recall but Rosa is slow so you should be fine]. iI might not outrange star bit [there's a custom that I know it doesn't outrange] but that won't KO you as long as you don't get hit by a silly not-real followup from Luma, and you might still trade. I think potentially depleting a third of Luma's health, if not outright KOing, is ok for taking a non-lethal 2 or 3 percent when Rosalina is out of range for a followup. So basically I almost always SH tjolt if I see her start charging it, and prepare to fsmash if Luma ends up close.

Also, SH dair in the MU - yay or nay? I like it for nailing Luma, doing damage to shield [not a ton, but it's a nice chunk], and the optional fastfallability if you suspect an OoS counter [this is 99% terrible, but maybe once a set it actually hits a Rosalina who's trying to punish quickly OoS - and if you do it more than once they're potentially on guard of it and lose their punish window], plus the cross-over can help protect from Luma some. However, I might be missing something [besides the obvious long-startup, which I don't view as much of a drawback].

EDIT: Also @ Hoenn pretty sure I played Nite at End the Paign - maybe if you see him, you could ask if he remembers a scrubby Pikachu who kept being weird offstage with Thunder and losing because he shielded dsmash... that'd be me, although I've gotten a bit better since then [my Pikachu was still mostly untested, but he made me feel a lot less awful vs Rosalina and Luma thanks to the straight hour of friendlies we played, where most wen to last stock but I only won one [admittedly we played nearly all on Town and City since he didn't care and I dislike the stage, so practicing it I figured was a good idea] (but no johns)].

 

[Megamang]

By fullhopping and shooting the thunder, I intend for Rosa to shoot luma past me. So then Im between luma and rosa, with a tjolt headed towards Rosa. With the tjolt en-route, she cant come punish me while I try and send luma to her doom.


I feel like good RaL players keep luma close in neutral though.

 

[Thor]

By fullhopping and shooting the thunder, I intend for Rosa to shoot luma past me. So then Im between luma and rosa, with a tjolt headed towards Rosa. With the tjolt en-route, she cant come punish me while I try and send luma to her doom.


I feel like good RaL players keep luma close in neutral though.

True [I think most keep Luma fairly close as well].

I was thinking of being at range when they start charging [ex: cross stage] - if they start charging close to you, I'd think you should just fullhop and fastfall with fair while they're in lag to set up a grab, but I guess there's awkward spacings where this use of t-jolt is best.

 

[isaiah :)]

i'd hate to ask this, but if i could i'd put it myself, not my thread, anyway can we get a more organized list on the front page of what we have gone over and pika's matchup scores?
- I know it someone said to do it after a year but, that doesn't actually help develop this thread, i really don't think any newbies are going to shuffle through a several months worth of thread to find one match up style, i know the game is constantly developing, however i beleive that it can't continue to grow without more active people updating their findings on the game.

 

[Megamang]

The question is, how much of that compiled information would be optimal anyways? I think we should maybe wait till right after EVO, discuss the MUs from there and then start posting them in an indexed fashion.

 

[Ookami Hajime]

I agree; after EVO sounds like a good time do all of the more organized stuff.

 

[Hoenn]

Once I started beating nite consistently, I will make a matchup analysis video or something. He has gotten a ton better at the matchup and our matches have been extremely even lately. I did not know how to beat rosa nair until after the last time I played him. Our last matches were just me running into nair and making hard reads to even it out. I used to never drop games to him until he starting nairing

Now that I know how good crawling is in the MU for beating nair on reaction, I don't think I will go even with him next time.
@ Thor I asked him and he says he remembers you.
You should totally come to dismantle or E2C 15, I did not know you were a Champaign player. That is pretty cool lol

 

[Thor]

Once I started beating nite consistently, I will make a matchup analysis video or something. He has gotten a ton better at the matchup and our matches have been extremely even lately. I did not know how to beat rosa nair until after the last time I played him. Our last matches were just me running into nair and making hard reads to even it out. I used to never drop games to him until he starting nairing

Now that I know how good crawling is in the MU for beating nair on reaction, I don't think I will go even with him next time.
@ Thor I asked him and he says he remembers you.
You should totally come to dismantle or E2C 15, I did not know you were a Champaign player. That is pretty cool lol

I'm a Minnesota native who goes to UIUC, which is why I attended Champaign tournaments this year [I just finished my freshman year of college.] I've been trying to get down to one of the E2C events, but the only guy I know who goes kept having school work in the way, and I'm not all that confident in riding the bus to Chicago and back for the first time. I should probably jump into it or whatever, but I'm not the type of person who does that sort of thing [and I could've spent time mapping it out, but I just never did, because I'd freak out a lot if I messed up and was alone having to figure out how to get back].

Also I'm going back home Wednesday, so this time tomorrow I'll probably be in my own bed again.

I will keep it in mind for fall though - there's this guy who always puts the E2C ___ facebook link in the Champaign Smash group, so I'll doubtless see it next year, and see about getting some of the Champaign crew down to a Chicago event [we brought people to a Wavedash Wednesday coinciding with Spring Break, but I went home for spring break so I didn't get to go to that].

 

[Megamang]

@ Thor

Im also a UIUC student, I think I met you briefly at End the Paign! I was a ZSS main then, but im feeling a switch to pikachu.


Anyways, im from Tennessee but Ive been here in champaign for 5 semesters, and I make the trip to Chicago pretty frequently. If you wanna maybe go down together sometime for a fest or weekly or something, you should contact me and we can go together with my buddy @PChron, we are trying to get to more tournaments next semester.


On topic, uhhh... **** nair.

 

[Thor]

I'll do write-ups. *something like that, not exact*

Can you do a write-up for Olimar? This was listed as Pikachu's worst MU in Brawl and I don't know what changed [beyond us losing chain throw and gaining different followups + uthrow thunder, and his less awful recovery, most of it seems similar... are winged pikmin less effective if they're used multiple times in a row because of us hitting him out of it over and over or something?]. This character is weird to me and I'm frankly unsure of how to deal with him [I know the one time I played one I still mained Sheik, and I'm pretty sure I only won because customs were on and I was using the penetrating needles, which let me eat through his Pikmin for percent.]

Would also be curious in perhaps Jigglypuff, Kirby, GnW, and Mii Brawler [note that the one I really want is Olimar (probably about as much as the other 4 combined), but if you find yourself super bored in your free time and want to go nuts, then... here you go???] I had one in here about Little Mac but I think you already did him so I'll go find it.

If you can, great. If not, oh well (I'm sure others will chip in if you can't/in the meantime).

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Can you do a write-up for Olimar? This was listed as Pikachu's worst MU in Brawl and I don't know what changed [beyond us losing chain throw and gaining different followups + uthrow thunder, and his less awful recovery, most of it seems similar... are winged pikmin less effective if they're used multiple times in a row because of us hitting him out of it over and over or something?]. This character is weird to me and I'm frankly unsure of how to deal with him [I know the one time I played one I still mained Sheik, and I'm pretty sure I only won because customs were on and I was using the penetrating needles, which let me eat through his Pikmin for percent.]

Would also be curious in perhaps Jigglypuff, Kirby, GnW, and Mii Brawler [note that the one I really want is Olimar (probably about as much as the other 4 combined), but if you find yourself super bored in your free time and want to go nuts, then... here you go???] I had one in here about Little Mac but I think you already did him so I'll go find it.

If you can, great. If not, oh well (I'm sure others will chip in if you can't/in the meantime).

Pooh Kirby yes :D

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

We never even had a CG against Olimar.

The reason Olimar was so bad in Brawl was because his options were WAY faster, killed earlier, and were generally better. Yellows also essentially killed us and since pikmin plucking was random you could go from winning easily to "Wow he has 3 yellows 2 purples and a white, I lose." Now you can keep track of the order of his pikmin (Red, blue, yellow, white, purple? The last 2 might be reversed) and you can just jump and nair away and kill his pikmin that you don't want to stay active (Like Yellow/purple). Yeah we can't edgeguard him as well but his neutral is way less scary and pikachu has MORE followups than he did in brawl just because of the engine.

 

[Thor]

We never even had a CG against Olimar.

The reason Olimar was so bad in Brawl was because his options were WAY faster, killed earlier, and were generally better. Yellows also essentially killed us and since pikmin plucking was random you could go from winning easily to "Wow he has 3 yellows 2 purples and a white, I lose." Now you can keep track of the order of his pikmin (Red, blue, yellow, white, purple? The last 2 might be reversed) and you can just jump and nair away and kill his pikmin that you don't want to stay active (Like Yellow/purple). Yeah we can't edgeguard him as well but his neutral is way less scary and pikachu has MORE followups than he did in brawl just because of the engine.

I didn't mean a CG as much as fthrow usmash and dthrow nair working at a wide range of percents [and nair being better] while dthrow only sorta leads into fair now [and we get dash attack off fthrow at 0], but this point is only tertiary to what I was asking anyway.

It is RBYWP as far as I know for order. I take it nair is better for KOing Pikmin since it's not a KO move?

Anyway, this helps at least a little [I'll use nair to KO pikmin attached to me more]. Thanks.

 

[Pikabunz]

We had a 0-death ledge cg on Olimar in Brawl.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

That was not even applicable though since Olimar was seldom in the air.

 

[ZeusGodOfThunder]

That was not even applicable though since Olimar was seldom in the air.

U were incredible today in the tourney, gratz on winning. How did you handle the Rock Lee Leaf Hurricane so well? Idk if it is because your used to your brother's playstyle, but you were the only person who didn't get destroyed by the Leaf Hurricane, it seemed like Nick Riddle didn't go for it as much on you as he did other players+ when he did he missed. Also what adjustments did you make on 8bit's Rob? If I'm correct he 3-0d in WQ or WSF, then you 3-1d him in LFs.

Sorry for all the questions, just a journalism major trying to improve my Pika and happy to see you win outta losers

 

[Hoenn]

Yo ESAM can you explain your thunder mixups out of uthrow/dthrow? I noticed you netted a LOT of kills using double jump thunder 2

Congrats on winning too lol

I just want to hear your thoughts on thunder mixups and ways that you used thunder in the different matchups or in a general way. You have really good thunder mixups

 

[Thor]

I need ESAM to write a guide on Pikachu's dtilt or something [maybe ftilt too]. I get along fine without the moves [or rather, using them both very sparingly], but everyone says how amazing they are and I think relying less on SH aerials would help my game out a lot...

Care to briefly discuss fighting Peach? I know you've played against Slayerz at some point ESAM...

 

[Gidy]

How is Pikachu vs. Mario and Shulk?

 

[isaiah :)]

How is Pikachu vs. Mario and Shulk?

Pikachu vs. Mario is close to even, mario has increadibly lagless smash attacks and it makes him difficult to get really close to, + his cape removes pikachu's rush apporch and takes off much of pikachu's range game, but pikachu is faster with quicker areals so he can do small combos on mario without interuption.

Pikachu Vs. shulk, i think i can do because shulk is my secondary, well with my expereince with shulk, i can certainly say pikachu's up close pressure beat's out shulks range, but if shulk can space pikachu out (some how) then he can almost even it up with pikachu, but again shulk has to have really good spacing game as well as strong move reading skills for that, overall the matchup is in pikachu's favor by a bit,

I need ESAM to write a guide on Pikachu's dtilt or something [maybe ftilt too]. I get along fine without the moves [or rather, using them both very sparingly], but everyone says how amazing they are and I think relying less on SH aerials would help my game out a lot...

ftilt is amazing for combo pressure (I say this because while comboing you are closest to your opponent,so ftilt is great), Dtilt works as a combo set up as well as spacing when under pressure. pretty much it, SH FF Fair is a great combo starter, so don't not rely on it, just build a stronger mix-up game.

 

[Trifroze]

Falcon MU thread is discussing Pikachu, do drop in: http://smashboards.com/threads/come-ahwn-captain-falcon-mu-thread-lap-5-pikachu.399692/

COME AHWN

 

[Hoenn]

I think pikachu loses to mario because he has the ability to force our approach AND has the tools to wall us out.

He is so small that fair cannot hit him unless poorly spaced. He can usmash an aerial that we approach with and we cannot approach mario with shield to punish Usmash, because it is safe. Usmash makes it REALLY hard to approach.

Also if you look at pikachu's frame data, pikachu does not have burst options, infact he has nothing close. Dash attack is super unsafe, dash grab is extremely laggy, fair is super slow (and will not hit mario), dash shield is the only fast option we have (and mario is VERY hard to punish Oos). I have died for using quick attack on many occasions and most of the mario mains that I have played with have discouraged me from using it too much. Fireballs also beat pika's QA. Normally fireballs are a bad projectile, but pikachu does not have the speed to punish mario for using it (Unlike a huge portion of the cast) due to bad burst options.

Mario also gains massive reward if he gets in on you (especially if he gets grabs). Pikachu is basically forced to play mario's game since he cannot play the runaway game.

We also cannot kill mario since he is difficult to gimp and all he has to do to stay safe is Usmash, shield, and play patiently when he is at kill percents. He can kill with Bthrow (very likely to have rage due to our kill potential), usmash, or edge guard us, fsmash and dsmash are also very lagless and have some situation usage.

Overall imo, this is our worst matchup. I have given up on this matchup.

I actually could write more, but I have to go.... I really hate this MU

 

[phili]

I think pikachu loses to mario because he has the ability to force our approach AND has the tools to wall us out.

He is so small that fair cannot hit him unless poorly spaced. He can usmash an aerial that we approach with and we cannot approach mario with shield to punish Usmash, because it is safe. Usmash makes it REALLY hard to approach.

Also if you look at pikachu's frame data, pikachu does not have burst options, infact he has nothing close. Dash attack is super unsafe, dash grab is extremely laggy, fair is super slow (and will not hit mario), dash shield is the only fast option we have (and mario is VERY hard to punish Oos). I have died for using quick attack on many occasions and most of the mario mains that I have played with have discouraged me from using it too much. Fireballs also beat pika's QA. Normally fireballs are a bad projectile, but pikachu does not have the speed to punish mario for using it (Unlike a huge portion of the cast) due to bad burst options.

Mario also gains massive reward if he gets in on you (especially if he gets grabs). Pikachu is basically forced to play mario's game since he cannot play the runaway game.

We also cannot kill mario since he is difficult to gimp and all he has to do to stay safe is Usmash, shield, and play patiently when he is at kill percents. He can kill with Bthrow (very likely to have rage due to our kill potential), usmash, or edge guard us, fsmash and dsmash are also very lagless and have some situation usage.

Overall imo, this is our worst matchup. I have given up on this matchup.

I actually could write more, but I have to go.... I really hate this MU

I agree with everything here except when you said "he is difficult to gimp." Wait.... since when? Mario's recovery is very sub-par in this game compared to the rest of the cast and he is basically forced to recovery low. Imo this makes him a prime target for edge guarding with t-jolts and run-off bairs.

Idk, maybe I haven't played any mario's who actually know how to recover properly. But from my experience, getting him off stage seems to be the only way to win this matchup

 

[isaiah :)]

yeah the match up isn't completely bad, gimping mario is what makes this match up closer to even instead of a Bad MU for pikachu, it just takes a lot of move reading to get it done

 

[Hoenn]

mario has invincibility on his up b and it is super fast. He looks really easy to gimp but that stupid invincibility beats right through our aerials.

mario isn't really that hard to gimp, but he is harder than most characters.

I find it very hard to get mario in the situation to gimp, or at least good marios for that matter.

Basically what i will say about mario and gimping is that gimping mario is not something we should be relying on for taking stocks. we should only be getting a gimp or 2 per set. because it is hard to get him in those specific situations. Those specific situations usually require mario to have higher percents anyways so.....

Maybe I am just tired idk

even with gimping though, i Don't think this matchup is anywhere near even.
We outspace his aerials with fsmash to catch his landing, right? If they ban FD and smashville, Where are we supposed to take mario!?!? He beats us on every stage other than FD (I think we beat mario on FD just because we can abuse his landing tools and juggle him forever)... but if he has platforms, he can pressure us like crazy and has a place to land, but because of being able to ban 2 stages, we are kinda screwed over

I might just sound like I am ranting, but i am tired and i passionately hate this matchup (Even though this has been the only matchup I have been training in for the last month >.<)

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Since when do we have to play Mario's game? Also...what is mario's game? Grab combos are just as potent for Pikachu as they are for Mario. Pikachu can also outspace Mario typically with D-tilt and retreating fairs are kinda gdlk. SH dair is actually kinda hard for him to deal with besides like U-smash but if he misreads that you get whatever you want on him.

PIkachu has as much combo potential than Mario if not more. He has the same type of neutral game and he can edgeguard mario with run off fair and thunder frame traps. I have edgeguarded several marios with that lol.

 

[Antonykun]

man...I need to keep up with this forum more often @.@
anyways the Swordfighter forums are having a discussion on Pikachu please do come in and at least drop a "lol Swordfighter, we QA this thing smh"
http://smashboards.com/threads/swor...alcon-and-pikachu.380027/page-2#post-19214095

 

[Hoenn]

Is Dair safe on his shield?

i say that we have to play mario's game because most people beat mario by zoning him out. pikachu cannot do that. If you try to camp mario, he just gets stage control, you end up in the corner,and he gets kill setups and lots of damage on you.

i also think mario gets more out of his hits than we do, unless i am doing something wrong. I juggle him with uair and try to bait out his nair once I know the combo is going to end, but since we cannot take mario to a stage without platforms, he gets away free eventually (and without getting hit too hard).

ESAM where do you think we should take mario anyway? (the mario mains in my region ALL ban FD and smashville)