Meta Pikachu Metagame Discussion

[Kaladin]

Seam have you ever played a good Kirby or Peach or Zelda? What do you think about them.
Btw YES Mario with his practically unpunishable attacks............I swear it irritates me.
It's not like I get comboed much even from a grab, but I swear it is frustrating to deal with characters that have so little and I mean SO LITTLE ending lags in a majority of their attacks. Those characters I do hate so much......

Btw can someone tell me who else I should main? All my characters actually have similar problems that I think having another main may help.
I main Kirby and Peach. Secondaries Zelda and Villager. Tertiary Jigglypuff
Who else should I main? Someone that has a simple moveset(like Kirbys) that fits me, but some interesting attacks(like peach and villager) that still make me good characters.
In a way I WAS thinking maybe Mario? Also Shiek as well, but idk....fast characters generally are not my type that I can easily get used to. I tried Ness, but I couldn't cope with it. I have played Yoshi, but the controller I use just doesn't fit him for me. Bowser Jr., has some very wacky and weird attacks so I can't really do him.
These characters I know I won't main

You're asking in the Pikachu thread. What do you think we're gonna say? Lol.

 

[Hoenn]

Just like grab him... And throw him off stage. You don't always have to be close to him. Camp with T-Jolt, and he'll come eventually (even if it takes 5 minutes.) Once you got him off stage, gimp him to hell. One bair to gimp his double jump will kill him at pretty much any percent.

Never play his game in neutral. Do weird stuff he hasn't seen, like going under the stage with your recovery and popping up on the other side.
Mario I think really relies on an opponent's patterns, and if you have a lot of mixups, you're golden.

I have found that jolt camping gets me nowhere. He can just cape it on reaction. Sadly cape doesn't have cooldown so we can't punish it.

Gimping him isn't as easy as it sounds either. Mario has invincibility frames on his up B, so he can end up almost stage spiking us for that. I do think that we destroy mario offstage, but it is not as easy as some characters.

If I want to play defensive against mario, what should I do since jolting him sucks?

 

[isaiah :)]

well canting

Seam have you ever played a good Kirby or Peach or Zelda? What do you think about them.
Btw YES Mario with his practically unpunishable attacks............I swear it irritates me.
It's not like I get comboed much even from a grab, but I swear it is frustrating to deal with characters that have so little and I mean SO LITTLE ending lags in a majority of their attacks. Those characters I do hate so much......

Btw can someone tell me who else I should main? All my characters actually have similar problems that I think having another main may help.
I main Kirby and Peach. Secondaries Zelda and Villager. Tertiary Jigglypuff
Who else should I main? Someone that has a simple moveset(like Kirbys) that fits me, but some interesting attacks(like peach and villager) that still make me good characters.
In a way I WAS thinking maybe Mario? Also Shiek as well, but idk....fast characters generally are not my type that I can easily get used to. I tried Ness, but I couldn't cope with it. I have played Yoshi, but the controller I use just doesn't fit him for me. Bowser Jr., has some very wacky and weird attacks so I can't really do him.
These characters I know I won't main

Shiek takes a lot more technical skill to play with, if you main her, you will need to put a lot of time in to your play style with her. maybe a rush down character may help, and pika is one of the best rush downs, lucario is mid speed but can become a god late stock as well as being pretty good at keeping your opponent in the air.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

well canting


Shiek takes a lot more technical skill to play with, if you main her, you will need to put a lot of time in to your play style with her. maybe a rush down character may help, and pika is one of the best rush downs, lucario is mid speed but can become a god late stock as well as being pretty good at keeping your opponent in the air.

(I prefer you ignore this please......I sound idiotic :/ )I mean in a way, don't take this the wrong way, but I kinda don't like Pika simply because.........this will sound weird.......
He's kinda good in pretty much every smash game... Like Fox, it's kinda..... Dissapointing when the same character is being played commonly throughout each smash game.
In a way it's kinda unfair for some characters like Kirby in melee.
He was 2nd best, but he went to being the worst? While fox and Pika are still fantastic viable characters..... Same as in brawl fox being nerfed is still good and Pika is still top 10.
I know it sound stupid but because how my life is, you know, wanting things to be fair even though it never happens, but that's just me.

But.... Maybe I should learn Pika, I mean he doesn't LOOK hard to understand and learn and his moveset I think I could handle maybe.
I do need a speedy character and I mean it. I guess I will look at Pika at some point thanks for the suggestion.
But should I know anything significant about him that I should practice before I try? I'm still at school so yea.

 

[isaiah :)]

well maining pika isnt hard, being good with mix ups and keeping momentum is what makes pika a harder character to main. pika isnt like CF or diddy, you cant just pick him up and expect to know how to combat your opponent. pika has low kill power and must maintain control for most of the game to win tbh

 

[Pixel_]

I know it sound stupid but because how my life is, you know, wanting things to be fair even though it never happens, but that's just me.

You don't have to put yourself down, lots of people aim for low tier characters just because of the same reason.

If you're thinking about trying out pikachu, I guess you should go to the index:
http://smashboards.com/threads/pikachu-index-thread.392301/#post-18634043

 

[migul]

Seam have you ever played a good Kirby or Peach or Zelda? What do you think about them.
Btw YES Mario with his practically unpunishable attacks............I swear it irritates me.
It's not like I get comboed much even from a grab, but I swear it is frustrating to deal with characters that have so little and I mean SO LITTLE ending lags in a majority of their attacks. Those characters I do hate so much......

Btw can someone tell me who else I should main? All my characters actually have similar problems that I think having another main may help.
I main Kirby and Peach. Secondaries Zelda and Villager. Tertiary Jigglypuff
Who else should I main? Someone that has a simple moveset(like Kirbys) that fits me, but some interesting attacks(like peach and villager) that still make me good characters.
In a way I WAS thinking maybe Mario? Also Shiek as well, but idk....fast characters generally are not my type that I can easily get used to. I tried Ness, but I couldn't cope with it. I have played Yoshi, but the controller I use just doesn't fit him for me. Bowser Jr., has some very wacky and weird attacks so I can't really do him.
These characters I know I won't main

 

[migul]

I have found that jolt camping gets me nowhere. He can just cape it on reaction. Sadly cape doesn't have cooldown so we can't punish it.

Gimping him isn't as easy as it sounds either. Mario has invincibility frames on his up B, so he can end up almost stage spiking us for that. I do think that we destroy mario offstage, but it is not as easy as some characters.

If I want to play defensive against mario, what should I do since jolting him sucks?

Stand there and crouch. I meant gimp his double jump. Without it, he can't recover for ****. Literally just do nothing and wait for Mario to act and react to it. Doing nothing and making sure the opponent can't do anything will anger your opponent, so once that happens, you can start punishing his unsafe moves. Also, fight him on the ground.

 

[Deleted member]

Stand there and crouch. I meant gimp his double jump. Without it, he can't recover for ****. Literally just do nothing and wait for Mario to act and react to it. Doing nothing and making sure the opponent can't do anything will anger your opponent, so once that happens, you can start punishing his unsafe moves. Also, fight him on the ground.

I also struggle against Mario. Not sure because I still want to test it in the matchup myself, but I would think if you were gonna play defensively against a Mario, Pika's d-tilt would be key.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Considering the rediculous amount of little lag his moves have in general, it wouldn't be that bad if he was going offense mostly, you have to hit him either during or before he does a move is what I think is key

 

[isaiah :)]

Maybe to QA in to him, and pivot grab his fall lag

 

[Legato]

Hey guys! As a fox main I never had issues with Mario's utilt combo (DI down and shield). I notice Pika is not the same way. Does thunder have any potential in disrupting this string? I usually test this kind of stuff myself, but I have no access to the lab atm.

 

[Kaladin]

Hey guys! As a fox main I never had issues with Mario's utilt combo (DI down and shield). I notice Pika is not the same way. Does thunder have any potential in disrupting this string? I usually test this kind of stuff myself, but I have no access to the lab atm.

Yes, thunder inturrupts quite nicely. Just be sure not to get baited.

 

[Cassio]

Vs Sonic: I play pikachu in melee and have come across several good falcons. I think the consensus in that MU is that if Falcon doesnt camp he gets wrecked. That being said if he does camp, falcon will punish almost anything pika can do, even the smallest commitments (like uair), because hes so fast. But pikachu can do the same. Ultimately the MU comes down to forcing the opponent to commit first.

The Sonic MU feels very similar to me. Pika has the tools to beat a sonic that goes in unless theres a skill disparity. You have to watch out for the times he doesnt though and not get tricked (and sometimes this can be disguised well or youll prematurely feel pressured to do something which is the point). Trust in your reaction times and dont fear his empty movements, wait for him to commit and punish him for it. If pikachu shields his down or side b he can hit him out of shield with something half the time which should be enough. Jolt is also amazing at disrupting Sonics movement.

 

[Hoenn]

Yes, thunder inturrupts quite nicely. Just be sure not to get baited.

Hey guys! As a fox main I never had issues with Mario's utilt combo (DI down and shield). I notice Pika is not the same way. Does thunder have any potential in disrupting this string? I usually test this kind of stuff myself, but I have no access to the lab atm.

Dthow into utilt does not work on the majority of the cast. Most characters can shield out of it almost instantly and others can easily just jump out of it. I am like 95% sure that you can just jump out of it. I don't feel threatened by dthrow utilt
I don't usually see good mario mains go for dthrow (probably for this reason). Most marios just go for uthrow

 

[Soul.]

Destroy them.

Seriously though, Robin's entire game revolves around zoning with arc fire while charging up Thoron or Arcthunder. If you don't let robin do that, you win. QA goes right over (maybe even through) Arcthunder. Just get in, and because Robin is so slow she's combo food. Also, just keeping her off the stage in general is great, because she will eventually become unable to use up B, then you go in hard.

Shulk is interesting. He's combo food in every art, especially shield, and has pretty linear recovery for us to exploit. That said, we have to respect both Buster and Smash. Buster will get us to 60% in like three hits, then we're at kill%s from smash if he has rage. I guess the main problem with shulk is getting through his giant-*** light saber? Once you do that, his frame data is so bad I feel like he's pretty free.

I'm no expert though.

Yeah I know. Getting in to rack up damage should be number one priority; my problem with Robin lies in "how do you deal with that jab"? Every time I try to get in to rack up damage, I always get hit by the jab (not the rapid attack, the fiery one). That character's NAir is pretty decent too for spacing so idk.

Also yeah, about Shulk... his frame data is pretty lol. The problem with him is his range and uhh, yeah Buster/Smash... Speed too because he can run away and use BAir (huge range).

 

[Pogoshark]

The one with the pink cheeks should totally be a girl.

Kinda disappointed there were no heart tail alts.

Any advice on the Toon Link match up?
I know you said it was 60-40 to Pika but I have trouble getting in on campy playstyles,
Thanks.

 

[Hoenn]

Yeah I know. Getting in to rack up damage should be number one priority; my problem with Robin lies in "how do you deal with that jab"? Every time I try to get in to rack up damage, I always get hit by the jab (not the rapid attack, the fiery one). That character's NAir is pretty decent too for spacing so idk.

Also yeah, about Shulk... his frame data is pretty lol. The problem with him is his range and uhh, yeah Buster/Smash... Speed too because he can run away and use BAir (huge range).

I have actual factual information on robin that may help out. When Robin charges neutral B, she charges it in stages. If you interrupt the charge mid stage, she will have to restart her charge on that stage. If you pressure her with jolts and positional pressure, then she cannot charge at all and you remove her entire camp game.
And she does not want to escape to platforms to deal with the jolt pressure because she does not have landing options and all of them are very linear which makes fsmashing it pretty easy especially if you bait out the double jump, so it is basically GG from there lol, but basically I think we should all just abuse her charging mechanic, she really does not have much as a character. But you have to pressure her from midish range. You have to be at the range where you can punish her on reaction if she jumps to charge it.
To protect her self when she jumps to charge it, she may arc fire, just be ready for it and react to the startup by rolling behind her. Then punish the end lag

As sheik I literally just spam needles and she cannot do anything on most stages because the needles force her out of her charging stages. But she can escape to charge it on smashville, so even as pikachu, I think we should not let robin go to smashville

 

[Kaladin]

I have actual factual information on robin that may help out. When Robin charges neutral B, she charges it in stages. If you interrupt the charge mid stage, she will have to restart her charge on that stage. If you pressure her with jolts and positional pressure, then she cannot charge at all and you remove her entire camp game.
And she does not want to escape to platforms to deal with the jolt pressure because she does not have landing options and all of them are very linear which makes fsmashing it pretty easy especially if you bait out the double jump, so it is basically GG from there lol, but basically I think we should all just abuse her charging mechanic, she really does not have much as a character. But you have to pressure her from midish range. You have to be at the range where you can punish her on reaction if she jumps to charge it.
To protect her self when she jumps to charge it, she may arc fire, just be ready for it and react to the startup by rolling behind her. Then punish the end lag

As sheik I literally just spam needles and she cannot do anything on most stages because the needles force her out of her charging stages. But she can escape to charge it on smashville, so even as pikachu, I think we should not let robin go to smashville

I used to main Robin. Actually when she's hit out of charging, Robin has to restart from the last time she hit shield to safe her charge... Which makes this even better.

 

[Legato]

Dthow into utilt does not work on the majority of the cast. Most characters can shield out of it almost instantly and others can easily just jump out of it. I am like 95% sure that you can just jump out of it. I don't feel threatened by dthrow utilt
I don't usually see good mario mains go for dthrow (probably for this reason). Most marios just go for uthrow

I'll have to test it over the weekend to confirm if this is true then. I really hope it is, come to think of it I never tried jumping because of my Fox habits. Thanks for the input!

 

[phili]

I am yet another pikachu main who struggles with marios. I will take the advice posted here though and just camp/run away until I see an opening to get him off stage, then edge guard him hard.

As for other matchups i'd like advice on, would be at the top of the list. Are there any approach options that just kill luma instantly so I don't have to deal with that annoying little star? If not, I'd appreciate advice on how to deal with the matchup in general.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Dash attack typically kills luma pretty damn quickly (Assuming you are hitting her towards the short side of the stage and not on smashville)

Against campy play styles just play patient. Walk n Shield is a really good one, especially vs TL since his grab is bad. Once he commits to something else on shield or something you see and can punish (Such as pulling a bomb/throwing boomerang when close) hit him and hit him hard. Campers also typically go towards the ledge which is really good for Pikachu since he is so good at edgeguarding. One mess up on their end can lead to their stock being lost. The key is to just not get frustrated because at that point the TL will start giving you a lot of damage and you will get even more upset and do random things to try to hit him and get bodied for it

 

[Deleted member]

I am yet another pikachu main who struggles with marios. I will take the advice posted here though and just camp/run away until I see an opening to get him off stage, then edge guard him hard.

As for other matchups i'd like advice on, would be at the top of the list. Are there any approach options that just kill luma instantly so I don't have to deal with that annoying little star? If not, I'd appreciate advice on how to deal with the matchup in general.

I've had much more success against R&L once I started focusing on baiting attacks, punishing and seperating Rosa from her Luma, and immediately getting the Luma off the stage w/ dash attacks (also wanna try HSB on a luma) instead of going for followups on Rosalina herself. It's been worth not getting the followup combos to this point.

Also, against campy play styles, esam mentioned how they tend to stick to ledges. When they do this, one approach when they leave an opening in their walls is to QA through and behind them and ledge cancel for an immediate way to get on top of them near the edge. This approach has led to the most success for me against MM and the like. If they perfect shield this though, we need to be wary of immediately being followed with strong Bairs like MM's and TL's.

 

[Kaladin]

I haven't tested this, but regarding Rosaluma, due to bair's multi hit nature, I would be very (bairy?) unsurprised if bair pretty much auto separated them. If that's the case, then RAR to bair would be very useful, yes?

 

[Legato]

Can't say much about bair, but nair definitely separates them, I find nair OOS when Rosa goes for a grab can work pretty well if you know that's what they want. Definitely not the safest of options, but can be rewarding if you are near the ledge.

Funny though, I've never tried dash attack to get rid of luma. That is probably the better option near the ledge. Guess I'll keep that in mind next the time I face a good Rosaluma.

 

[Hoenn]

Speaking of megaman.... How do we deal with the pellets....
I DO know that the pellets are safe on shield if they space it right. Do I have to try to get a shield on it while forcing bad spacing? Is that my only option? I have a perfect record on mega man, but I usually take like 50 damage every time I try to get through it.

I know that my buddy that is a megaman main named Ramenking literally made someone rage because they spent like 1 and 1/2 stocks just running into them while ramenking did not take any damage.... So I know that a lot of people don't have any clue because I see this kind of thing all the time

Does anyone here have any success against pellets? They are so safe lmao

 

[Thor]

Yeah I know. Getting in to rack up damage should be number one priority; my problem with Robin lies in "how do you deal with that jab"? Every time I try to get in to rack up damage, I always get hit by the jab (not the rapid attack, the fiery one). That character's NAir is pretty decent too for spacing so idk.

Also yeah, about Shulk... his frame data is pretty lol. The problem with him is his range and uhh, yeah Buster/Smash... Speed too because he can run away and use BAir (huge range).

I was in a tournament and trying to get around a Robin [I lost 2-1] as a Sheik main (I'm seriously considering playing Pikachu with Sheik as backup at a big event tomorrow, I love Pikachu and I think he's a lot of fun and a strong character, even though I was terrible with him in Brawl]. I have no idea if it works as Pikachu, but when I was getting flame jabbed, I tried holding down and shield - somehow I powershielded it every time I did this and was able to punish.

I'd GUESS this only somehow works if they're slow doing the jab combo, but it may be something to at least try [this did NOT work if they just mashed A and went to the wind finisher].

 

[Cubesphere]

Hey guys, I could need some help on the Ness Matchup...
Whenever I fight a good Ness, I get destroyed.
The reason why that is is because I simply can't challenge any of his attacks.
Mainly because of all of his Aerials that are all either disjointed like Fair, Bair, (Dair) or they are strong with a lot of priority like Nair and UpAir.
His Dash Attack is also very disjointed and I just can't seem to work around it...
He also absorbs any TJolts and even heals himself.
Sometimes I can manage to bait out a DownB by Ness by shooting a TJolt and get a combo in because of its End Lag. However, the Ness I'm used to fighting to has managed to work around that.
Also, none of my other approaches work because he can just Fair and I don't get any hits in.
And QA doesn't work because he can see it coming because my momentum stops in the air...

The only good thing is that Ness is quite easy to juggle because of his floaty-ness (hehe)

TL;DR Ness's aerials are disjointed, he can absorb TJs and has more kill options.

How does Pikachu win that MU?

btw: same problem with G&W and Rosaluma

 

[Hoenn]

Hey guys, I could need some help on the Ness Matchup...
Whenever I fight a good Ness, I get destroyed.
The reason why that is is because I simply can't challenge any of his attacks.
Mainly because of all of his Aerials that are all either disjointed like Fair, Bair, (Dair) or they are strong with a lot of priority like Nair and UpAir.
His Dash Attack is also very disjointed and I just can't seem to work around it...
He also absorbs any TJolts and even heals himself.
Sometimes I can manage to bait out a DownB by Ness by shooting a TJolt and get a combo in because of its End Lag. However, the Ness I'm used to fighting to has managed to work around that.
Also, none of my other approaches work because he can just Fair and I don't get any hits in.
And QA doesn't work because he can see it coming because my momentum stops in the air...

The only good thing is that Ness is quite easy to juggle because of his floaty-ness (hehe)

TL;DR Ness's aerials are disjointed, he can absorb TJs and has more kill options.

How does Pikachu win that MU?

btw: same problem with G&W and Rosaluma

Against ness, play passive. Sit around his PK fire range and bait react to what he does.
Quick attack is very good against ness if you need a zone breaker, it forces ness to wait and see what you do.

The thing about his aerials is that none of them protect him from below. AND Fair cannot touch you unless you are in the air (or he delays it out of a short hop). Take advantage of how floaty ness is. Use a lot of RAR Uairs and Spaced Fsmashes (get good at dash canceled Fsmashes out of fox trot). If he tries jumping away, you can usually catch his landing with a spaced fsmash since he has no way of getting out of it unless he retreats to a platform.
Plus if you catch his double jump with fsmash and he ends up offstage... (I dont need to explain this lmao)

If you find yourself getting grabbed a lot, use a lot of short hops and dtilts. Short hop allows you to get out of his grab range and allows you to safely escape. If he tries to run up to it and shield, you are not forced to play the 50:50 landing game, don't throw out an aerial, just double jump/quick attack away.

Basically short hops beat ness grab without committing so it is really safe and hard to punish even if they read it. (at super high percents ness relies of bthrow and can't grab you for doing this. Ness also can't chase you with any strong aerials for doing this, especially if you jump away)

I think this matchup will get better for pikachu as time goes on, I don't think anyone truly knows the ness MU, but I do think that short hopping and getting good at forward smashing after dashing will be a huge part of this MU)

 

[Ffamran]

Annnnnnnd ZAP! Yep, we're at a type disadvantage already. Hello, Pokémon Trainers, the Falco boards started their Pikachu matchup discussion and would want to know how you Trainers battle with your Pikachu. The discussion is ongoing, so drop by whenever and if you want to battle with other Falco players for the MU or for fun, head over here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

The ongoing discussion is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...ikachu-bad-day-to-be-part-flying-type.400541/.

 

[Thor]

ESAM, Hoenn, anyone, please help... how the heck do I answer Spin Dash vs Sonic?

I lost to a Sonic and I literally can't deal with spin dash - the rest of the MU doesn't feel that bad, but I can't stop that move. Apparently there's timing to where it goes through t-jolt safely [he only did it twice but told me this after], and every time I shield it, he does a fullhop aerial [or homing attack] and then I'm out of range to punish him since Pikachu doesn't have big range. I almost won until he just started doing nothing but spin dash approaches, and still got some knocks in, but I just couldn't handle spin dash.

ANY option to cover it, be it rapid jab [I was told this works but it sounds questionable at best], any tilt I need to learn to time, any aerial, whatever, I'll appreciate it, OR any way to punish it and the fullhop after shielding. It was a huge struggle [in some ways worse than when I played more Sheik and had to fight Rosalina and Luma - I don't get to practice against her and that was a nightmare <_<] and I think this is the only MU that truly gives me fits [since I played a solid Rosalina and Luma a ton as Pikachu and realized the risky utility of dsmash for killing Luma, as well as dash attack and using tjolt to help stuff her].

Any advice for the default is highly appreciated, but if there's a custom one that's more dangerous, tipping me off as to how to deal with that would be excellent as well.

I really do appreciate any and all time given to helping me with this problem.

 

[Cubesphere]

QA beats Sonics Spin Dash

 

[isaiah :)]

can we get a peach MU going please? Esam anyone?

 

[Thor]

QA beats Sonics Spin Dash

Do you literally mean QA into the spin dash to beat it out??? Someone told me the Spin Dash to worry about is Burning Spin Dash, is this true, and if so, does it beat out Burning Spin Dash as well?

Is there anything else I can do? I've seen the rapid jab thing and it looks ok given Pikachu's useful ftilt, but I think it leaves us in range for Sonic's jab which would seem to mean I have to play RPS of ftilt/jab beats grab, shield beats jab/ftilt, and grab beats shield every single time I do this, which frankly is what I'll force myself to do if I have to, but it doesn't appeal to me at all.

 

[A10theHero]

ESAM, Hoenn, anyone, please help... how the heck do I answer Spin Dash vs Sonic?

I lost to a Sonic and I literally can't deal with spin dash - the rest of the MU doesn't feel that bad, but I can't stop that move. Apparently there's timing to where it goes through t-jolt safely [he only did it twice but told me this after], and every time I shield it, he does a fullhop aerial [or homing attack] and then I'm out of range to punish him since Pikachu doesn't have big range. I almost won until he just started doing nothing but spin dash approaches, and still got some knocks in, but I just couldn't handle spin dash.

ANY option to cover it, be it rapid jab [I was told this works but it sounds questionable at best], any tilt I need to learn to time, any aerial, whatever, I'll appreciate it, OR any way to punish it and the fullhop after shielding. It was a huge struggle [in some ways worse than when I played more Sheik and had to fight Rosalina and Luma - I don't get to practice against her and that was a nightmare <_<] and I think this is the only MU that truly gives me fits [since I played a solid Rosalina and Luma a ton as Pikachu and realized the risky utility of dsmash for killing Luma, as well as dash attack and using tjolt to help stuff her].

Any advice for the default is highly appreciated, but if there's a custom one that's more dangerous, tipping me off as to how to deal with that would be excellent as well.

I really do appreciate any and all time given to helping me with this problem.

I usually use Pikachu's forward tilt to stop Sonic. And I believe down tilt works too. I don't recommend shielding often against Spin Dash. Not only can Sonic jump away safely, but also he could poop out a spring and hit you when you think you're safe. As for the custom moves, I haven't played with them or against them much, so I can't say anything about them at the moment. If I have time today, I'll play around with them and get back to you on that.

 

[Hoenn]

Sadly I have online played 1 sonic offline. Quick attack beats spin dash outright though, I know that for a fact.
Dtilt would not be reliable against sonic though. The reason that spin dash is such a good move is not because it has high priority (It's priority is terrible), but because it is so fast and almost impossible to actually react to.

Ftilt is a long lasting hitbox, so I do think that is worth testing.

Sonic can only spin dash forward, so if you cross up his spin dash on reaction... Would that be punishable?
I would think it would be if they read it (Since spin dash is shield cancel-able, sonic could probably dash attack us out of shield)

Maybe I am not the best one to talk about this though... I don't have any sonic experience, i just know how sonic works since I used to play him a bit

 

[LumpyGravy]

So, Falcon. Pikachu is supposed to be this character's worst matchup (at least as expressed by multiple Falcon and Pikachu mains).

I picked Pikachu up as a secondary a few months ago and since have had a lot more success against Sheik, Villager, Fox, Sonic, and ZSS, matchups I really struggled with as Greninja but find more manageable as Pikachu. I am very satisfied with my decision to put in the work to learn this character (and of course, I still have a lot to learn) as I've been placing better in my local and regional scenes since picking him up.

But for some reason, I have a mental block playing against this character. He was the core reason I first considered looking into Pikachu in the first place. Given how badly the matchup is spoken of I figured Falcon was more or less free for Pikachu, so it's disconcerting to me that I still lose to Falcons. I pretty much go on tilt as soon as I see him on the character select screen.

I guess what I am asking is if someone can run the matchup down for me, and explain how to play the matchup in such a way that Pikachu's advantages over Falcon are most effectively optimized.

I have a tournament this weekend so I'm trying to do as much homework as possible.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Against spin dash you have 2 main options

If you have full shield, shield it. They will spring. Shield that too. Punish his landing.

Once you have the lead (Or you don't have full shield): jump through him and air dodge. It's pretty good and it's really hard to get hit when you do that.

You can also do the generally more balsy trades with f-tilt and F-smash, but that isn't advised. With customs You can throw out HSB and kill him at 55 which is cool.

Wait..QA just beats spindash? Like you QA into sonic and it goes through spindash and we don't get hit. REALLY?!?


Falcon: You honestly play really patient vs this character. SH fair beats pretty much anything falcon DOES in your face sans dash attack, so you pretty much wait for him to approach and act accordingly. Pikachu ABSOLUTELY DESTROYS falcon offstage with fair carries, nair, bair, T-jolt...yeah it's pretty free. You can essentially wait for falcon to do anything, punish him with fair carries across the entire stage or B-throw and edgeguard him. You can also punish most of his everything if you shield it. Obviously his dash grab is amazing but if you are really paranoid about that just start throwing in side-steps. It becomes a mix-up and Pikachu generally gains WAY more off of any hit than Falcon does due to the sheer edgeguarding ability of Pikachu. Fair is also amazing if you are expecting anything but shield (It might even beat dash attack due to its disjoint, not 100% sure on that tho)

 

[LumpyGravy]

Does quick attack have a particular function in the matchup?

 

[Thor]

Against spin dash you have 2 main options

If you have full shield, shield it. They will spring. Shield that too. Punish his landing.

Once you have the lead (Or you don't have full shield): jump through him and air dodge. It's pretty good and it's really hard to get hit when you do that.

You can also do the generally more balsy trades with f-tilt and F-smash, but that isn't advised. With customs You can throw out HSB and kill him at 55 which is cool.

Wait..QA just beats spindash? Like you QA into sonic and it goes through spindash and we don't get hit. REALLY?!?

Falcon: You honestly play really patient vs this character. SH fair beats pretty much anything falcon DOES in your face sans dash attack, so you pretty much wait for him to approach and act accordingly. Pikachu ABSOLUTELY DESTROYS falcon offstage with fair carries, nair, bair, T-jolt...yeah it's pretty free. You can essentially wait for falcon to do anything, punish him with fair carries across the entire stage or B-throw and edgeguard him. You can also punish most of his everything if you shield it. Obviously his dash grab is amazing but if you are really paranoid about that just start throwing in side-steps. It becomes a mix-up and Pikachu generally gains WAY more off of any hit than Falcon does due to the sheer edgeguarding ability of Pikachu. Fair is also amazing if you are expecting anything but shield (It might even beat dash attack due to its disjoint, not 100% sure on that tho)

First and foremost, thanks for the Sonic advice. I'll be sure to use HSB for punishing it, and I'll look into regular skull bash for it as well in no-customs events [I'm really that annoyed at it and would use it just to hit him out of the move]. EDIT: You say they'll always spring after spin dash. The one I faced would often nair or uair my shield, and very occasionally jump and homing attack my shield. Is spring just the default option and this one was doing mixups or is it suboptimal play to not spring [incidentally, I felt I was able to decently punish homing attacks, I'll have to work on punishing landings... just like HSB, grabs, and maybe SH dair if I read an airdodge or what? Also sorry for so many questions...]

As someone who used to play a relatively solid Falcon a lot, two things came to my mind reading ESAM's post:

I'm pretty sure ESAM implied this and will just say something along the lines of "Did I stutter!?" but does Pikachu's fair beat RAR bair from Falcon? I think it has a slight disjoint and it's actually not terribly unsafe on shield since it has some pushback, range, and only 10 frames of landing lag [although that's not relevant to it beating fair]. I'm used to Falcon approaching with grab, RAR bair, some nair, and his dash attack, which is why I ask.

I also can't say I think it reliably beats his nair [if it does, color me surprised and sad for Falcon but happy for Pikakchu], but ducking does! Just be careful he doesn't manage to time a fastfall to nail you with the second hit (if he does, start shielding it or something, or just fair if that works) and you're good to go [if you're fast you might be able to just upward-angled ftilt due to Pikachu's low hurtboxes, but I'm not sure if a perfectly input first nair hits low enough to hit Pikachu or not].