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Meta Pikachu Metagame Discussion

[FBC] ESAM

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I would hope so~

I havent had a lot of Yoshi experience, he just seems obnoxious and i play him. His playstyle is really good. The yoshi in SFL's name is Dath
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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I would agree that Yoshi is a really annoying character. I'm currently torn in between it being even and 55-45 in Yoshi's favor.
 

isaiah :)

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BENNY DONT START ****

Thanks for the apology. I did get mean after ur initial blow-up, but typically people dont resist my advice since...im ESAM lol

Ill do Olimar when i get home so i dont gotta do it on mobile
i
d really like your input on how to zone in on rob. i haven't played many outside of FG which is **** cause all i ever get is edge spammers, but im not one to spam Tjolt cause why spam? , but i cant seem to space him with it either. and his air game against pikas is pretty sold( at least on plat-formless stages). sorry i was going to ask you last night but the situation was awkward. lol
 

[FBC] ESAM

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i
d really like your input on how to zone in on rob. i haven't played many outside of FG which is **** cause all i ever get is edge spammers, but im not one to spam Tjolt cause why spam? , but i cant seem to space him with it either. and his air game against pikas is pretty sold( at least on plat-formless stages). sorry i was going to ask you last night but the situation was awkward. lol
Against rob you typically want to FH fair and dair, or SH fair with a cross up on his shield. ROB's only good OOS option is fair so if you take that away form him it is hard for him to punish. In the ROB MU you have to be patient because if you get flustered and run in you will take A LOT of unnecessary damage from projectiles. However, if you ever land a fair or dair you can kinda take ROB for a ride all the way off-stage and then pick him apart with falling fairs, nairs, and t-jolts.
 
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Hoenn

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Against rob you typically want to FH fair and dair, or SH hair with a cross up on his shield. ROB's only good OOS option is fair so if you take that away form him it is hard for him to punish. In the ROB MU you have to be patient because if you get flustered and run in you will take A LOT of unnecessary damage from projectiles. However, if you ever land a fair or dair you can kinda take ROB for a ride all the way off-stage and then pick him apart with falling fairs, nairs, and t-jolts.
wow I never thought of "SH hair"... That is some pretty innovative tech right there
 

isaiah :)

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Against rob you typically want to FH fair and dair, or SH hair with a cross up on his shield. ROB's only good OOS option is fair so if you take that away form him it is hard for him to punish. In the ROB MU you have to be patient because if you get flustered and run in you will take A LOT of unnecessary damage from projectiles. However, if you ever land a fair or dair you can kinda take ROB for a ride all the way off-stage and then pick him apart with falling fairs, nairs, and t-jolts.
how about MetaK and olimar? whats the best approach for each?
 
D

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Hey ESAM, love watching your godly Pika. Thanks for the write-ups so far in this thread.Any advice on Little Mac? One of my playing partners bodies me with him. He constantly rushes me down and uses his f-tilts, d-tilts, and rolls back whenever I get pressure. Since his roll is so fast I have a hard time punishing. Also, whenever I get in he manages to use his up-b which stops all of my momentum. I was thinking I need to use more QAs and d-tilts. I have a hard time grabbing him because of macs quick tilts and jabs, and pikas grab range.. what do you think?
 

migul

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Hey ESAM, love watching your godly Pika. Thanks for the write-ups so far in this thread.Any advice on Little Mac? One of my playing partners bodies me with him. He constantly rushes me down and uses his f-tilts, d-tilts, and rolls back whenever I get pressure. Since his roll is so fast I have a hard time punishing. Also, whenever I get in he manages to use his up-b which stops all of my momentum. I was thinking I need to use more QAs and d-tilts. I have a hard time grabbing him because of macs quick tilts and jabs, and pikas grab range.. what do you think?
I know I'm not ESAM but I'll give my two cents on it.

Camp with Pikachu. Use tjolt. Little Mac has a hard time with projectiles, so you might as well. Also, when a LM approaches you stay away from him and use quick attack, as you never want to be close to him. When LM makes a mistake, drag him off stage.
 

[FBC] ESAM

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LITTLE MAC

Synopsis - As long as you don't fall into his Smash attacks, stuff is pretty free. You combo him offstage where you proceed to edgeguard him.

Ground-Ground: The only scary part of this MU. He has F-tilt, dash grabs, dash attack, and SUPER ARMOR on his smash attacks. If you can read his attacks and shield them, you are 100000% fine. QA away from his pressure and you should be fine

Ground-Air: Little mac doesn't have an air game. if he is in the air, all you need to do is poke with uair and fair. Fair carries him all the way off-stage and then you can just poke with tjolts and fall off fairs. If he recovers, you are doing it wrong (Unless he gets directly below the ledge, you can't really mess with him there).

Just really pay attention to his spacing and hit him for it. B-throw is pretty devastating if you are on the ledge. If he has KO punch just run and QA. QA will knock KO punch off of him if you hit him, and if not you just kinda notice that and run away.


Metaknight

Metaknight's neutral kinda relies on his dash attack and grab, so avoiding those two moves is pretty essential to you winning.

On the ground, use a lot of D-tilt because i think it is longer than MK's d-tilt and f-tilt? Not 100%. Either way, T-jolt camp to slowly approach is really good since he doesn't really have an answer to it besides like...walk up shield. Either way, you cover space and then get into dair/dash grab mix-ups. Pikachu gets A LOT more out of every hit than MK does. Pikachu can also edgeguard MK really well because we can kinda manipulate where he is with t-jolt and fall off fair/bair. MK does have a lot of kill potential with up-b, but Pika's size and weight honestly makes it hard for him to get it. I've fallen out of it so many times and punished them. Metaknight really can't contend in the neutral game, in the air, or off stage. MK's weight is also very condusive of Pika combos, which is amazing.
 

RadioactiveMoth

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Yeah, as far as I can tell, Migul pretty much covered what I would have said. If you camp with tjolt LM will most likely have to approach with perfect shielding, or go by air. Both aren't the best since Pika can either run to the other side, or try to get in a grab/attack after they shoot a tjolt. If you can throw him off with a back or forward throw, you can gimp him easily with tjolt, or most likely just watch him fall.
 
D

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Thanks for the responses guys, good to see ESAM back and active on the boards.
 

Legato

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Hey ESAM, good to see you active on here. If you get a chance, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Rosalina and Luigi MU's. Can't find many videos of pro play for the Rosa/pika fights so i'd really like to learn some stuff about that MU.
 

Pikabunz

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I've been not home for the last two days and it looks like I missed out on all the fun. :(

I'd like to hear your opinion on Sonic, ESAM. Right now, it's one of the match ups I have the most trouble with.
 

[FBC] ESAM

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I already wrote about Luigi!

Sonic:

The basics would be that this MU is very....very...slow. Pikachu is AMAZING at covering landings so you pretty much let sonic do his sonic thing of spinning and springing, then punish whatever he does on landing. Pikachu gets a lot of damage off of single hits (Like F-smash, or actual combos) so you can pretty much keep up with whatever Sonic dishes out. Another REALLY important factor is that we have QA so we don't have to land in obvious places where Sonic can just kinda hit you for free. QA is SO versatile and sonic has a really tough time hitting you...ever...if you use it correctly. Pikachu also has really good maximum aerial velocity so if you ever see him release a spin dash you can kinda jump forward and air-dodge and it is REALLY hard for him to hit you. Mix this up with typical rolling through and shield and sonic has a hard time doing anything.

If he isn't spin dashing you can do your typical fair/dair pressure. I think FH dair beats any spindash/aerial sonic has?? Not 100% sure, haven't played one since KIT where i played a bunch of friendlies against StaticManny. In terms of killing, both of us do a pretty good job. Pika can punish Sonic F-smash with dashing U-smash, and also we can punish his landings with F-smash. Customs help a lot since we don't really get pressured by hammer spin dash too much but we also can punish his landings/trade with HSB which will kill HELLA early.
 

RedBeefBaron

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Hey guys, I've always played mostly Diddy and Shiek but I have pocketed Pikachu since Brawl. I think Pikachu may end up being a great counter to Diddy Kong post patch for a couple of reasons and I'd like to hear what you guys think. Going through some of the same points we were talking about on the Falco boards.

1. Pikachu's mobility is better than Diddy's so Diddy will not be able to get away and get 1 or 2 seconds to himself whenever he wants to safely pluck a peel in this matchup. Since the damage and KB nerfs Diddy needs to get in cleanly many more times than before and the banana is how he does this. You need to be able to stop Diddy from setting up by either patiently plucking it behind him and immediately jumping, z-catching, and fast falling back to the ground, or aggressively b-reverse plucking the banana towards the opponent from mid range and approaching with fair, dash grab, nair, and empty hop mixups as the banana falls and traps. If you can stop Diddy from setting this up successfully enough he will not get the damage output he now needs.

This is a lot harder to deal with than it sounds on paper. Even if you defend against the banana really well, say, by z-catching it and immediately throwing it away or back at Diddy, or quickly jumping and destroying it, you're still being forced into a situation where you have to do something and the grab/fair mixup is on the way. It's like how Dedede mains use gordo, it can be defended against but you have to do something, which allows Dedede to come at you the way he wants.

Except Dedede's are explaining why Gordo isn't trash. Diddy's use this strategy to make bananas the best projectile in the game. There are dozens of of ways to approach with bananas in Smash 4 because now we can repluck a banana out of our hand after the initial spawn pluck, in addition to four directions to throw and a z-drop. Different setups require different defense maneuvers. Because the Diddy player will know which way he will approach out of many setups and the opponent has to guess or react, skilled banana approaches are the most free mix up in the game. And Diddy gets a lot of reward for getting in. So use your superior mobility to either catch or destroy the banana on aggressive plucks you can punish and get in Diddy's face on patient plucks to stop these mixups before they can be set up.

As far as taking the banana away goes, air speed is good but foot speed trumps it. Because a foot speed character can just sprint across the ground as far as he needs to before jumping and z-catching the peel if its in the air. Additionally "z-scooping," or z-catching an item that is on the ground, is now a thing. Simply running up as close to a grounded banana as you can without tripping and jumping with an immediate z-scoop is a fast, lagless way to pick peels up off the ground. But it's going to be a bad idea if you have slower foot speed than Diddy, because again, Diddy's entire playstyle now revolves around using bananas to force the opponent into situations where he has the advantage. He will use grounded bananas as lures and you will get faired if he catches you going for this.

Characters like Fox, Pikachu, Falcon, Sonic and such are better at taking bananas from Diddy off the aggressive pluck and off the ground for this reason. Someone like Falco probably cannot handle this situation like that. A Diddy who knows how to get the most off of every banana and setup as many times as he can will actually force an approach himself. Which he can also use to lure people into hits, so watch that too.

You're other option is to overpower Diddy's neutral by approaching while simultaneously destroying the bananas Diddy tries to pull out to set you up. Someone like Pikachu can do this well, destroying aggressive b-reverse plucks with jumping thunderjolts and fairs on the way in. But again, if you're too telegraphed with how you try to destroy bananas the Diddy Kong will cover it and you will get faired or worse.

2. Pikachu is good enough at disadvantage to not get bodied too hard when Diddy does get in cleanly. Nair is fast enough and QA helps with landing and escapes in general in a lot of ways. You don't have to worry about getting comboed and juggled for days like some other characters do. So that's good.

3. Pikachu now beats Diddy in terms of kill power and ease of kill setups. Since the patch, Smash 4 Diddy's Achilles heel is the fact that he has terrible kill power outside of hard reads and perfect banana setups. He has reasonable moves for this though, in his F-smash which is now only a little bit more unsafe, and the second hit of his D-smash which is actually quite powerful. With customs on rocketbarrel attack is a risky yet brutal coin flip mixup that will destroy people early if Diddy can bait an air dodge, but Diddy will get hit if he misses.

If you can avoid these three things and draw stocks out for as far as you can and use your superior kill power to close stocks before Diddy lands his kill you will have a much easier time.

4. Many characters can gimp Diddy fairly easily if he has to charge the barrels because he is too low to recover with monkey flip, the hard part is actually forcing Diddy to recover low.

What I've been practicing is using Pikachu's B-reverse thunder just off stage to create a disjointed wall which will block the monkey flip from reaching the ledge and force Diddy to charge the barrels low where he is easily gimped by thunder jolt and quick attack.

But even that's hard. Monkey flip is a fast, safe, and confusing recovery since Diddy can wait to leap halfway into the stage and back to neutral where he dominates for as long as he wants. Coupled with the fact that the peanut cancel makes his movement even more crazy, I don't think most characters will be able to stop this recovery enough to put Diddy under the stage where he's screwed. Pikachu has a real shot, but you'll have to practice and have reasonable reads.

I thought Pikachu may have ended up winning this matchup pre patch if the Pikachu mains really nailed it down. Pikachu is one of the few that can can expose both Diddy's poor recovery and the banana's awful durability well, and Pikachu is also more mobile. Post patch i think Pikachu definitely wins, at least 65-45, as now Diddy has to work significantly harder.

I think Pikachu completely flew under the radar and may be the best in the game, by the way. There were no real changes for Pikachu in the patch because she is hard enough to play correctly that not many people were complaining about her like Diddy or Shiek. I'm hoping to see Pikachu mains doing work now.
 
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Pikabunz

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I think Pikachu completely flew under the radar and may be the best in the game, by the way. There were no real changes for Pikachu in the patch because she is hard enough to play correctly that not many people were complaining about her like Diddy or Shiek. I'm hoping to see Pikachu mains doing work now.


Good post though.
 

A10theHero

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I've never seen so many people active on this forum before! :D

The one with the pink cheeks should totally be a girl.
Pink cheeks? You mean the XY alt?
The art style of that game was just more washed-out than in previous ones. It's still considered red by the developers and all.
As long as it doesn't have a heart-shape tail, this Pikachu is definitely a male.

Anyways, how do you guys feel about mirror matches? Playing salty people on For Glory who tried to mirror me got me thinking about it.
 

Pikabunz

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Pikachu dittos are really boring. Pikachu's QA makes it hard to punish his landings and his recovery is so godly that we can't really gimp him either. Pikachu is just too safe on himself that it's going to be really hard to land any kill move on him without putting yourself at risk of getting punished with their own kill move.
 

[FBC] ESAM

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SH dair is hard to hit which is also really annoying since pika is so short. It won't hit his sidestep since he crouches down.
 

Hoenn

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Pikachu dittos are really boring. Pikachu's QA makes it hard to punish his landings and his recovery is so godly that we can't really gimp him either. Pikachu is just too safe on himself that it's going to be really hard to land any kill move on him without putting yourself at risk of getting punished with their own kill move.
Played the pikachu ditto with @ Pikabunz Pikabunz it is super lame... sadly:glare:
 

DeathlyFerret

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I struggled against Jigglypuffs but then I found out Pikachu's B-air out prioritizes all of Jigglypuff's air options, so now all I do is spam/space full hop B-air and watch Puff players rage quit.

I personally have a hard time dealing with Yoshi, Rosalina, Mario, Sonic, ROB, Samus, and for some reason Greninja.
Huh. Pikachu is usually my go-to character for dealing with Jigglypuff, Yoshi, Mewtwo and Rosalina. They're light enough for Pikachu to get a gimp/early kill, and Pikachu has great anti-aerial options for floaty characters.
 

Zee725

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Damn esam do people finally hate you more on these forums than they do me? xD

and LOL at these new kids.
 
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Hoenn

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I am still struggling with the mario matchup. I took the advice about using Pivot fsmashes to cover landings, but I still find it fairly difficult to get him in the air safely. I feel like he can easily approach us, but we can't easily approach him. I feel like he can kill a lot easier than us since he does not have to commit when he smashes. People always tell me that mario can't kill if you play defensive and run from him, eventually I just get trapped in the corner.

The only thing that I think pikachu benefits from in this matchup is the ability to land

What should I do against mario in neutral? I still have massive trouble and lose to random mario mains that are far worse than me in skill level. I kinda understand what to do once I get in on him in terms of punishes, but I have no idea what my mixups in neutral are.
What can I abuse about mario's neutral game?
Even aside from neutral any help would be awesome :(
I need help :(
 

isaiah :)

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I am still struggling with the mario matchup. I took the advice about using Pivot fsmashes to cover landings, but I still find it fairly difficult to get him in the air safely. I feel like he can easily approach us, but we can't easily approach him. I feel like he can kill a lot easier than us since he does not have to commit when he smashes. People always tell me that mario can't kill if you play defensive and run from him, eventually I just get trapped in the corner.

The only thing that I think pikachu benefits from in this matchup is the ability to land

What should I do against mario in neutral? I still have massive trouble and lose to random mario mains that are far worse than me in skill level. I kinda understand what to do once I get in on him in terms of punishes, but I have no idea what my mixups in neutral are.
What can I abuse about mario's neutral game?
Even aside from neutral any help would be awesome :(
I need help :(
you cant get cornered with QA
 

Hoenn

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you cant get cornered with QA
I have died both from getting caped and from getting up smashed while quick attacking

I have actually gotten my quick attack countered with fludd..... That hurt a ton

Do you think it is possible to wall out mario instead of running away?
I don't think running away gets me anywhere against a technical mario
 
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isaiah :)

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well how do you QA? you cant just QA up and over, and you cant QA through unless he's coming at you and close, but yes it is, you just need to bait out the cape and read his air game, shield grab, your D-Tilt should work against his ground game, and fire ball spam gives you QA opportunity, try ramming in to his move lag with the second zip of QA to get him in the air, if he throws out a Nair or Bair the first time, then he will most likely be doing it every time you get him up so you can jolt in his general direction or shield grab. btw if he's only walking at you, don't QA at him, its bait. you can throw a T-Jolt and watch his reaction.
 
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Hoenn

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I don't quick attack because mario can just throw out like any kill move and NEVER commit.... So I feel like it is super risky

Like, He doesn't have to read my quick attack, he can cover it by just throwing out his normal super safe and nearly unpunishable hitboxes
I am not saying that I am an expert though, I would love to hear you challenge the way I think about mario

I really hate this character.... so much... I am a power ranked player and I struggle with even low level mario mains. I really on hard reading every single move they make.

I will keep the stuff you mentioned in mind though.
 

Soul.

 
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Dittos are boring.
So what can we do against Shulk and Robin. I've asked this before lol
 

Kaladin

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Dittos are boring.
So what can we do against Shulk and Robin. I've asked this before lol
Destroy them.

Seriously though, Robin's entire game revolves around zoning with arc fire while charging up Thoron or Arcthunder. If you don't let robin do that, you win. QA goes right over (maybe even through) Arcthunder. Just get in, and because Robin is so slow she's combo food. Also, just keeping her off the stage in general is great, because she will eventually become unable to use up B, then you go in hard.

Shulk is interesting. He's combo food in every art, especially shield, and has pretty linear recovery for us to exploit. That said, we have to respect both Buster and Smash. Buster will get us to 60% in like three hits, then we're at kill%s from smash if he has rage. I guess the main problem with shulk is getting through his giant-ass light saber? Once you do that, his frame data is so bad I feel like he's pretty free.

I'm no expert though.
 

migul

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I don't quick attack because mario can just throw out like any kill move and NEVER commit.... So I feel like it is super risky

Like, He doesn't have to read my quick attack, he can cover it by just throwing out his normal super safe and nearly unpunishable hitboxes
I am not saying that I am an expert though, I would love to hear you challenge the way I think about mario

I really hate this character.... so much... I am a power ranked player and I struggle with even low level mario mains. I really on hard reading every single move they make.

I will keep the stuff you mentioned in mind though.
Just like grab him... And throw him off stage. You don't always have to be close to him. Camp with T-Jolt, and he'll come eventually (even if it takes 5 minutes.) Once you got him off stage, gimp him to hell. One bair to gimp his double jump will kill him at pretty much any percent.

Never play his game in neutral. Do weird stuff he hasn't seen, like going under the stage with your recovery and popping up on the other side.
Mario I think really relies on an opponent's patterns, and if you have a lot of mixups, you're golden.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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Seam have you ever played a good Kirby or Peach or Zelda? What do you think about them.
Btw YES Mario with his practically unpunishable attacks............I swear it irritates me.
It's not like I get comboed much even from a grab, but I swear it is frustrating to deal with characters that have so little and I mean SO LITTLE ending lags in a majority of their attacks. Those characters I do hate so much......

Btw can someone tell me who else I should main? All my characters actually have similar problems that I think having another main may help.
I main Kirby and Peach. Secondaries Zelda and Villager. Tertiary Jigglypuff
Who else should I main? Someone that has a simple moveset(like Kirbys) that fits me, but some interesting attacks(like peach and villager) that still make me good characters.
In a way I WAS thinking maybe Mario? Also Shiek as well, but idk....fast characters generally are not my type that I can easily get used to. I tried Ness, but I couldn't cope with it. I have played Yoshi, but the controller I use just doesn't fit him for me. Bowser Jr., has some very wacky and weird attacks so I can't really do him.
These characters I know I won't main
:4charizard::4falcon::4dedede::4dk::4drmario::4duckhunt::4greninja::4myfriends::4ganondorf::4palutena::4sonic::4wario::4wiifit::4zss::4pit::4darkpit::4littlemac::4link::4metaknight:
 
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