Meta Pikachu Metagame Discussion

[Eonn]

Any chance the OP could organize all the matchup information into the first post? Also, tips vs Luigi?

 

[Hoenn]

I would say that it would be smart to compile all of the info we have listed, but that is a lot of work, AND lets face it. In 2 years we are going to look back at this info and say... "Wow, what were we thinking?!? That is hilarious how clueless we used to be"

If we organized the info onto the front, it should probably be done annually imo. Just refreshed every year and delete anything that seems outdated.

It is completely up to the OP though. I would not blame them for not wanting to do it, that is a ton of work for just a small discussion thread. But it would be pretty cool, especially if ESAM's advice was added to the OP... One of these days it will get annoying to search through these threads looking for that.

 

[A10theHero]

I would say that it would be smart to compile all of the info we have listed, but that is a lot of work, AND lets face it. In 2 years we are going to look back at this info and say... "Wow, what were we thinking?!? That is hilarious how clueless we used to be"

If we organized the info onto the front, it should probably be done annually imo. Just refreshed every year and delete anything that seems outdated.

It is completely up to the OP though. I would not blame them for not wanting to do it, that is a ton of work for just a small discussion thread. But it would be pretty cool, especially if ESAM's advice was added to the OP... One of these days it will get annoying to search through these threads looking for that.

I have an idea. We could have a post like a directory so people can access the current information (it'll list links to the desired discussions). But we'll still reserve the OP for the annual edits like you said.

 

[phili]

EDIT: You say they'll always spring after spin dash. The one I faced would often nair or uair my shield, and very occasionally jump and homing attack my shield. Is spring just the default option and this one was doing mixups or is it suboptimal play to not spring [incidentally, I felt I was able to decently punish homing attacks, I'll have to work on punishing landings... just like HSB, grabs, and maybe SH dair if I read an airdodge or what? Also sorry for so many questions...]

Imo the one you played here is mixing it up, but should be using spring after he notices that you are shielding every one of his spin dashes. Spring is used after spin dash on shield by many sonic players so that they cannot be punished by an aerial out of shield. The spring comes out and will hit the shielding player if they try to jump out of shield to punish sonic. Obviously, doing this every time becomes predictable, but I feel like that is the safest option for sonic to take.

 

[isaiah :)]

it would be nice to make a thread setup to have more organized access to the information

Any chance the OP could organize all the matchup information into the first post? Also, tips vs Luigi?

esam talked about luigi in an earlier page

 

[Eonn]

esam talked about luigi in an earlier page

Alright, I'll go find it.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

If sonic does anything other than spring you can just react and like jump uair OOS and hit it, hence why spring is the best option (You can't punish it immediately).

 

[DavemanCozy]

A wild Fox appears! Pikachu vs Fox MU preliminary discussion started in the Fox boards.
vs

Click here to Fight or don't to Run Away.

 

[Pikabunz]

So here's a small tip on surviving certain bthrows a little longer. Notice how some bthrows knock you off stage with your back facing the stage? If this happens, hold towards the stage and mash A so your bair comes out. The start-up frames from bair moves Pikachu towards the stage a bit allowing him to survive about 5% longer. This works against Ness, Sonic, Peach, Shulk, and Captain Falcon. I'm just going by memory so there might be 1 or 2 more characters I'm forgetting. Don't try this with fair when facing the stage though! This actually kills you a little earlier! And here's one little random fact. Pikachu has two different knock back animations. One where he's spinning and the other where he's not. His spinning animation can kill him 1% earlier if he's still in it when he reaches the blast zone. It's completely random as far as I know. And I only tested this when he was facing the stage. It could be different when he's facing away.

 

[Antonykun]

Seeing as ESAM has the Villager MU as 65:35 I'll just drop this question again

.
Anyways how badly does Villager get shreked by Pika?

 

[isaiah :)]

Seeing as ESAM has the Villager MU as 65:35 I'll just drop this question again

depends on your pikachu, honestly with out the use of an effective QA villager can keep pika at a distance, what makes pikachu good against villager is that his QA can get in close, already pikachu has the advantage cause his tilts come out pretty fast, as well as his grab. pretty much after that pika can get the opponent in the air and start his usuall combos

 

[Thor]

So here's a small tip on surviving certain bthrows a little longer. Notice how some bthrows knock you off stage with your back facing the stage? If this happens, hold towards the stage and mash A so your bair comes out. The start-up frames from bair moves Pikachu towards the stage a bit allowing him to survive about 5% longer. This works against Ness, Sonic, Peach, Shulk, and Captain Falcon. I'm just going by memory so there might be 1 or 2 more characters I'm forgetting. Don't try this with fair when facing the stage though! This actually kills you a little earlier! And here's one little random fact. Pikachu has two different knock back animations. One where he's spinning and the other where he's not. His spinning animation can kill him 1% earlier if he's still in it when he reaches the blast zone. It's completely random as far as I know. And I only tested this when he was facing the stage. It could be different when he's facing away.

Funny that I was just using bair after being bthrown by a Sonic to not stop holding toward the stage while escaping tumble...

Does dair or uair or nair do anything positive or negative to help? And do you have any data on simply using double jump or Skull bash/Heavy Skull Bash like this? If you don't you don't, but if you do it'd be amazing if you could share it with us.

 

[Pikabunz]

Funny that I was just using bair after being bthrown by a Sonic to not stop holding toward the stage while escaping tumble...

Does dair or uair or nair do anything positive or negative to help? And do you have any data on simply using double jump or Skull bash/Heavy Skull Bash like this? If you don't you don't, but if you do it'd be amazing if you could share it with us.

Survival percents with each move:

Sonic Bthrow - Training Mode
Bair - 139%
Dair - 132%
Nair - 132%
Uair - 131%
DI only- 130%
Air Dodge - 129%
Fair - 128%
Side B - 123%
*Sonic's bthrow has Pikachu's back facing the stage after being thrown so using bair while DI'ing helps you live much longer here.

Luigi Bthrow - Training Mode
DI only - 121%
Dair - 121%
Uair - 120%
Fair - 118%
Nair - 118%
Air Dodge - 116%
Bair - 114%
Side B - 112%
*Luigi's bthrow has Pikachu facing the stage after being thrown so it's best to just DI. Using any move will just kill you earlier.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

So Skull bash helps us live longer?

 

[Thor]

Survival percents with each move:

Sonic Bthrow - Training Mode
Bair - 139%
Dair - 132%
Nair - 132%
Uair - 131%
DI only- 130%
Air Dodge - 129%
Fair - 128%
Side B - 123%
*Sonic's bthrow has Pikachu's back facing the stage after being thrown so using bair while DI'ing helps you live much longer here.

Luigi Bthrow - Training Mode
DI only - 121%
Dair - 121%
Uair - 120%
Fair - 118%
Nair - 118%
Air Dodge - 116%
Bair - 114%
Side B - 112%
*Luigi's bthrow has Pikachu facing the stage after being thrown so it's best to just DI. Using any move will just kill you earlier.

Basically always use dair unless we know bair is the right choice [since dair won't KO you sooner but might make you live longer, at least from the Luigi data]. Thank you very much!

 

[Umbreoff]

Some of the people in this thread (Eonn and Hoenn) mentioned compiling all of the info we have listed. I might be able to make a google doc of a list of everything that's been said on the thread up until now that pertains to the pikachu matchup or something like that. The game is a few months old now and I think it would be worthwhile to compile that information and see what's still true about the matchups and what isn't. Any thoughts on this?

 

[isaiah :)]

So Skull bash helps us live longer?

So i know this is a struggle, but i recently came in contact with a pest villager, and we go back and forth in matches, but he seems to roll a lot, and i cant seem to punish it cause he spams Dsmash when i'm close, so any advice on how to deal with villager? btw he is good and using platforms

 

[Weavile493]

Sadly I have online played 1 sonic offline. Quick attack beats spin dash outright though, I know that for a fact.
Dtilt would not be reliable against sonic though. The reason that spin dash is such a good move is not because it has high priority (It's priority is terrible), but because it is so fast and almost impossible to actually react to.

Ftilt is a long lasting hitbox, so I do think that is worth testing.

Sonic can only spin dash forward, so if you cross up his spin dash on reaction... Would that be punishable?
I would think it would be if they read it (Since spin dash is shield cancel-able, sonic could probably dash attack us out of shield)

Maybe I am not the best one to talk about this though... I don't have any sonic experience, i just know how sonic works since I used to play him a bit

I don't think quick attack beats spin dash at all, in fact it's a terrible move in the mu imo. Spin dash is an active hit box as it moves across the stage meaning pika can't move through it and gets hurt if pikachu touches it (robs gyro, any first rapid jab and projectiles) so not only does it make it bad against spin dash but sonic can easily punish any quick attacks on shield because he's ridiculously fast and can get to pika if he can predict your landing. I'd recommend staying in shield and mainly using UAir t-jolts and dair in the mu for safe but effective pressure since sonic can punish you everytime you overcommit

 

[Pikabunz]

Basically always use dair unless we know bair is the right choice [since dair won't KO you sooner but might make you live longer, at least from the Luigi data]. Thank you very much!

It's best not use any aerial at all. Not using an aerial and dair give the same survival rate, but using dair can cause you to die early if you don't use it right.

 

[Thor]

It's best not use any aerial at all. Not using an aerial and dair give the same survival rate, but using dair can cause you to die early if you don't use it right.

Wait... what?

Maybe I should just not ask you to explain, but... now you've left me confused.

I'll bair when I'm Sonic bthrow'd, but I don't know what your "don't dair" means in the context of this chart...

I don't think quick attack beats spin dash at all, in fact it's a terrible move in the mu imo. Spin dash is an active hit box as it moves across the stage meaning pika can't move through it and gets hurt if pikachu touches it (robs gyro, any first rapid jab and projectiles) so not only does it make it bad against spin dash but sonic can easily punish any quick attacks on shield because he's ridiculously fast and can get to pika if he can predict your landing. I'd recommend staying in shield and mainly using UAir t-jolts and dair in the mu for safe but effective pressure since sonic can punish you everytime you overcommit

Unless you tested it, two people have just straight-up said the opposite, and they're hardly likely to completely lie for no reason. I have had stuff going on and haven't found someone to help me test it with them, but I'm doubtful they'd lie.

Also QA is a terrible move in precisely zero MUs. It's also a good move in all of them, leaving Pikachu more mobile than basically all of the cast and able to safely take center stage vs anyone who overcommits when trying to cover your ledge option. It's really annoying in the ditto though [from what I've heard, haven't played the ditto with a Pika main myself].

 

[phili]

Unless you tested it, two people have just straight-up said the opposite, and they're hardly likely to completely lie for no reason. I have had stuff going on and haven't found someone to help me test it with them, but I'm doubtful they'd lie.

Also QA is a terrible move in precisely zero MUs. It's also a good move in all of them, leaving Pikachu more mobile than basically all of the cast and able to safely take center stage vs anyone who overcommits when trying to cover your ledge option.

I have had a ton of Sonic experience recently at my locals as there are at least 3 different Sonic players there. I can say from experience that QA does beat spin dash some times. I think it depends on whether the spin dash was charged or uncharged.

Also, I agree that QA is a good move in every match up. You just have to use it safely and not land in the same place every time so your opponent can't read you and punish.

It's really annoying in the ditto though [from what I've heard, haven't played the ditto with a Pika main myself].

Yes, it's extremely annoying to play Pikachu dittos. I always switch characters if my opponent is playing Pikachu

 

[Pikabunz]

Wait... what?

Maybe I should just not ask you to explain, but... now you've left me confused.

I'll bair when I'm Sonic bthrow'd, but I don't know what your "don't dair" means in the context of this chart...

Dairing and not dairing both have you living up to 121%, but having to dair means you have to let go of your DI towards the stage for a few frames and if you spend too many frames trying to dair, you will die earlier. So there's no point in trying to dair when it gives you the same result as just DI'ing without using aerials.

I'm not 100% sure on this but using your 2nd jump can help you live longer. But most of the time you're in hitstun for too long to even use it.

 

[Hoenn]

Did you guys know that pikachu can duck AND CRAWL under rosalina's Jab (Jabs 1 and 2, not 3) And pikachu CANNOT be hit by rosalina's Nair while crawling or ducking? Pikachu can literally just react to it and crawl towards it then punish nair with Utilt or something big... But crawling seems like a great approach mixup against rosalina if she is zoning with nair and jab. She then has to rely on dtilt, which is a lot easier to deal with than jab.
I lost to the rosa twice this weekend, due to not knowing how to deal with nair, and I was going to ask for advice, but I labbed the mu with him... Thanks Nite


Also, does anyone have any tips vs falcon in neutral? I feel like I have an amazing punish game on falcon, I do not think it needs much work, but I lost to a falcon this weekend at a weekly (which made me sad cuz falcon vs pika lol)
I feel overwhelmed by his speed and passive falcons give me issues. I usually beat falcon by comboing them like crazy and destroying them every time I touch them, and I think I need to develop a better neutral game against falcon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcMAnDqMbrQ

Demitus told me that I need to stop fthrowing him and go for my normal Dthrow or uthrow combos since the damage racking will make me more consistent and he told me to pick better anti grab options since he got a lot of grabs on me and killed me for spot dodging. I want to see if anyone has any other input.

Also I got a nasty jab edge guard on him at 3:20

 

[MM_Row]

just so OP is always updated without viewers having to go to the last page , stickied threads like these should be by a moderator.. so the mod as well as other mods can exercise their power and update OP. I am a moderator on another site so I know how helpful this could be.

 

[Thor]

Dairing and not dairing both have you living up to 121%, but having to dair means you have to let go of your DI towards the stage for a few frames and if you spend too many frames trying to dair, you will die earlier. So there's no point in trying to dair when it gives you the same result as just DI'ing without using aerials.

I'm not 100% sure on this but using your 2nd jump can help you live longer. But most of the time you're in hitstun for too long to even use it.

I c-stick the dair... I don't c-stick most aerials but due to c-sticking dair being the 100% fastest method to do a fastfall aerial in that game I just flicked the c-stick down for this.

EDIT: Also, Hoenn, do you mean that nair can't hit Pikachu AT ALL regardless of if Pikachu is literally directly under Rosalina as her nair is coming back around to the ground? That seems crazy good...

 

[Kaladin]

So I was thinking about the WFT MU... Could we use crawl and shield as our primary approach option? He only has like three moves that can hit us while crouching.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

So i know this is a struggle, but i recently came in contact with a pest villager, and we go back and forth in matches, but he seems to roll a lot, and i cant seem to punish it cause he spams Dsmash when i'm close, so any advice on how to deal with villager? btw he is good and using platforms

Predict the D-smash with an aerial to punish, or shield it. Just use basic RPS options to get around other basic options, especially if you notice his habits. It should be easy to punish (Especially if you have customs since you can start an infinite if you punish a D-smash with a T-wave.

 

[Megamang]

Anyone have any shiek advice? My basic thought on the matchup is stay low, because shiek's aerials don't work so well on a crouching pikachu. Also, try and get a kill early while denying her a kill until very late percents (I have trouble with this as pika). I don't really know much else because I don't have any shiek practice partners.

 

[Disgaea D2]

What is the Pikachu vs G&W MU? (I'm no Pikachu main sorry and I'm asking you cause only a few people post on the G&W Forums)

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Lol xD I faced a good Pika online and we had several matches, I was playing Zelda mostly, but also Kirby.
I think this MU for Zelda really isn't as bad as it may seem, NL is definatly helpful because Pikachu loves to rush you and constantly keep pressure, it's a great get me off option and it is really good at countering QA I think.

I think he won slightly more overall, but yea these characters can actually do something, I also think her Nair is best used here,
Fsmash also needed for spacing and Dsmash for its speed if you can at least try to punish(his ariels do surprisingly have a lot of lag with fair being the main exception.) Though obviously it was still hard to punish nonetheless. But it was very fun, though arguably I had a somewhat easier time fighting him when I was Kirby.

 

[Megamang]

Lol xD I faced a good Pika online and we had several matches, I was playing Zelda mostly, but also Kirby.
I think this MU for Zelda really isn't as bad as it may seem, NL is definatly helpful because Pikachu loves to rush you and constantly keep pressure, it's a great get me off option and it is really good at countering QA I think.

I think he won slightly more overall, but yea these characters can actually do something, I also think her Nair is best used here,
Fsmash also needed for spacing and Dsmash for its speed if you can at least try to punish(his ariels do surprisingly have a lot of lag with fair being the main exception.) Though obviously it was still hard to punish nonetheless. But it was very fun, though arguably I had a somewhat easier time fighting him when I was Kirby.

I'd imagine the size of zelda's sweet spots and pika's small stature leaves her very vulnerable in the air against a competent pika, and teleport is pretty punishable at least by a QA if not a more damaging launcher. I can't see her doing well in the MU at high level, although there is a lack of high level Zelda v Pika matches that I have seen.

 

[Hoenn]

As someone with actual high level practice with a top level player that secondaries zelda, he tells me that zelda should stay grounded against pikachu as much as possible. Zelda has a great boxing game with her tilts and jabs other good boxing options. She loses as soon as she gets in the air since she cannot land.

I do not know the mu very well from pikachu's side, but he told me that I should do more quick attack mixups to break zelda's zoning game. He also told me that once I learn the matchup, it will be very very hard for him to win. He thinks it is a bad matchup for zelda.

 

[Megamang]

I would imagine any character that has trouble once they are in the air is a good matchup for pika, unless they have some crazy zoning tools which skew the odds. For example, you can find yourself really behind if you die to an elevator (zelda's up-b used so the first hit knocks you up and the second finishes you off the top) way earlier than you should. For this matchup, don't let your DI falter. The elevator fails - or at least is much much harder to land - if you are inputting any direction when you are hit with the teleport. If you mess up and do something punishable on shield, watch for teleport OOS.

Tjolt to make her reflect, then punish.

 

[Soul.]

I'm pretty sure we win the Zelda MU. Yes, she has Farore's and KOs early, but she can't land. If we DI the move, then we wait until she lands and punish. Most of her moves are laggy anyway. I suppose we can walk and Thunder right after so that the cloud hits her, then we do something like fsmash?? Not sure if this works, just wondering.

Her tall frame makes moves such as FAir more useful overall because.... uhh, she's tall? We have our BnB in strings already; this is not a problem. Quick Attack gives us frame advantage so we can do whatever, also we can approach or even retreat with it.

But that's just my opinion so yeah.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Yea true, I guess staying grounded is best, but at least we are almost impossible to edge guard because of teleport.
But yea Zelda's ground attacks help, but try not to you know, get predictable and leave yourself open

 

[ZeusGodOfThunder]

Yes, it's extremely annoying to play Pikachu dittos. I always switch characters if my opponent is playing Pikachu

You have any tips for Pika dittos? I played on FG (yes FG) earlier and beat my opponent's luigi and falcon with my Pika, he seemed to have pretty good knowledge of the characters and was playing a really fast pace, then he switched to Pika and it was just weird it threw me off and he destroyed me like 3-1. I beat him with G&w of all characters 2-0 lol, so idk u have any tips basically

 

[phili]

You have any tips for Pika dittos? I played on FG (yes FG) earlier and beat my opponent's luigi and falcon with my Pika, he seemed to have pretty good knowledge of the characters and was playing a really fast pace, then he switched to Pika and it was just weird it threw me off and he destroyed me like 3-1. I beat him with G&w of all characters 2-0 lol, so idk u have any tips basically

I'm not a top player by any means, so maybe someone else could help me out on this one. But in my opinion, you play the character, and therefore should know the character's strengths and weaknesses. You know what kind of set ups your opponent will likely be looking for, and you should know how to avoid them. You also know which moves are punishable and which ones aren't.

For Pikachu, look for patterns in the way your opponent uses quick attack and t-jolt. Once you notice their patterns, you can punish accordingly. Also look for patterns in the way your opponent recovers. Many lower level pikachus that I've encountered have very noticeable recovery habits, such as always quick attacking onto the stage, or always using skull bash to grab ledge.

Finally, be aware that a lot of your attacks won't hit pikachu if he is crouching, which is a common tactic used by pikachu players to avoid being hit in certain situations. Things that are normally good such as SH fair or SH instant dair won't hit a pikachu who is either crouching or in the end lag of a move that reduces his hurt box (like bair or dash attack).

I hope some of this helps, and I'm sure other members will give you some tips too

 

[RunawayPanda]

Would anyone be willing to go in depth on the mario MU? I saw a little bit of talk earlier, but is there more to the MU?
And if you are the homie, I'd love some ness matchup description. Thanks
If you guys need help looking into other matchups, I'll look into those as well.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Pretty much the only thing that Zelda has for her in the MU (From my exp playing against nairo) is up-b OOS. Her pressure is pretty nonexistent in the MU since Pika is so short and she can't really get any combos or strings because...well she's zelda. Pikachu can still get a lot of combos and edgeguards off, but sometimes you will die at 50 to up-b.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Pretty much the only thing that Zelda has for her in the MU (From my exp playing against nairo) is up-b OOS. Her pressure is pretty nonexistent in the MU since Pika is so short and she can't really get any combos or strings because...well she's zelda. Pikachu can still get a lot of combos and edgeguards off, but sometimes you will die at 50 to up-b.

Idk about edge guards her UpB is super far reaching and very safe(generally, depends on stages, I swear some with those STUPID curves or whatever always screws me up.)
Does nairo use NL? It's very good at countering QA from when I played a very good one on FG.
I think like what most others said, being in the air, is rather bad.