Pika + G&W Team in this game

[Shadow Blitz]

I haven't seen any mention of this on the forums, do you think this could over-centralize the doubles metagame?

For those that don't know, ONE THUNDER FILLS AN ENTIRE BUCKET NOW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x60Rvt4kjXg


Is this too good("Broken")? Remember, the bucket cannot be reflected. It has little risk for how much reward it gets in doubles in this game.


There is also the more known Mew2king's villager exploit by pocketing fsmashes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0s-5wuGNaM&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw&index=6
However, unlike the bucket, this requires a little more setup and does not have nearly as much range.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

This is actually a really good strategy, as opposed to the ridiculously overhyped Villager doubles strat.

It probably has to do with the fact that they made Thunder a multi-unit projectile. Unless it already was one? And they changed Bucket so that it could absorb multiple units of the same projectile at once now? Idk

 

[popsofctown]

What do you mean by "too good"? Like "too good man i gotta try that" or "too good better ban it"? Techniques like this existed in Brawl. But doubles is a side tourney so people don't practice stuff like this, or main a character just because they can do this. They just play their 1v1 mains. So you're going to have variety in the meta, it's unlikely to centralize unless you can win with it without having to know how to play Pikachu or Game and Watch decently, which is doubtful.

If you think it's strong, then play it yourself and enjoy an advantage over everyone who doesn't. It's very unlikely you'll be playing 3 pikaZSS dittos per tournament.

 

[squaminator]

After seeing that one 17 second match video CT put up, it definitely seems like the kind of exploit you can learn overnight and start applying immediately. In a team match, this is probably the best strategy. It seems so good that it'd be a miracle for anybody to win a doubles tournament who DOESN'T use this strategy, as long as there is at least two teams who are using the strategy.

It's really powerful.

 

[popsofctown]

That sample size of 1. So huge. Not like these other guys. They use sample size 0. I'm a healthy skeptic though. You bring sample size 1, at least, or no dice. That's how I roll.

 

[bebo27]

Y'all really not gonna ban this?

 

[Thinkaman]

Note that Pika + Zelda or ZSS are almost as bad. Ness is also probably a problem. Gunner might be...

If this proves to be as degenerate as it is, and isn't patched, the correct solution would be to ban default Oil Panic in teams.

We're not banning Pikachu or G&W, and we can't ban ordinary non-stalling actions in game. (What if they did it by accident? It's weird to suddenly inject this as a lose condition like this was some sort of freeze glitch. It's way better to ban the move than to say "We're going to allow this move, but if you use it successfully, you are disqualified.")

 

[Shadow Blitz]

At this given time, there's definitely not enough evidence to denote that this is broken/overpowered or not.

However, I would like to bring to attention the fact that killing is normally quite difficult in Smash 4. The bucket can OHKO, a feat that can only be accomplished, in general, very unreliably by other moves.

Additionally, the bucket, after being filled, is a pretty quick attack (sorry, I don't have frame data) and has a large range. It also is quite easy to fill, just a single thunder from a Pikachu ally can give you a full bucket.

There are certainly setups into a partner's bucket, f throw comes to me off the top of my head.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2icb5a/anyone_know_why_gw_is_banned_in_the_latest_japan/

According to this reddit page, G&W has been banned in Japan's latest doubles tournament! They have had the game longer than we have. If the Japanese thinks this strategy is broken, then the same could easily happen in the US.

 

[Sybronx]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2icb5a/anyone_know_why_gw_is_banned_in_the_latest_japan/

According to this reddit page, G&W has been banned in Japan's latest doubles tournament! They have had the game longer than we have. If the Japanese thinks this strategy is broken, then the same could easily happen in the US.

Can the bucket be countered or reflected? Don't have a way to test it for my self. I'm assuming that's what OHKO entails, though..

I believe we should follow Japan's lead on this one, It's a juvenile strategy.

 

[Shadow Blitz]

Can the bucket be countered or reflected? Don't have a way to test it for my self. I'm assuming that's what OHKO entails, though..

I believe we should follow Japan's lead on this one, It's a juvenile strategy.

As I said in OP, it cannot be reflected. Counters should work though. Even if counters prove to somehow be effective, this still greatly limits the character usage in the doubles metagame.

 

[Xiao-Xiao]

Its sad that we have to starting banning already, but I agree with Japan on this. The game and watch player doesn't even really need to know how to use the character well in order for this strategy to be sucessful.

 

[Blade Knight]

This is clearly broken, and far too easy to pull off with little ability to prevent it. Honestly, either G&W needs a blanket ban in teams or he needs to be forced to use a weaker variant of Oil Panic. Honestly though I feel like just banning teams from purposefully doing this could work, and if it happens 'by accident' then the G&W must empty the bucket over an empty space.

 

[Killamanjewro]

Megaman and G&W is a pretty nasty combo too even without oil panic. Just figured I'd throw that out there.

 

[Redd500]

I have a question. Are we going to ban G&W altogether, or just with specific characters?

 

[Chimera]

Why not just turn off team attack?

 

[Ferio_Kun]

Why not just turn off team attack?

I've thought of this many times. But without team attack you would get teams like 2 duck hunt that would be infuriating to fight.

 

[Bedoop]

Top Tier
yeeeeeeeeeeh

 

[pegguinni128]

This may also work with Ness's PK Flash, but I'm unsure. Maybe you just gotta ban that matchup. Either that or Ban G&W's Oil Panic when using this matchup altogether.

But hey, I ain't no competitive guy, just suggesting things. If my idea can't work out, don't blame me.

 

[Untouch]

The problem isn't the oil panic, it's that pikachu's new thunder attacks multiple times and the property of the projectile means the bucket doesn't eat it up, so it fills the bucket in one attack.

 

[SlyChoober]

Why not just turn off team attack?

I agree with this. I've been playing smash with team attack off since the first game. Never knew anything about the competitive scene, I really wish the official rules in tournaments was Team Attack set to off. My teammate should be able to grab someone while I hit them with a smash attack without any worries that I might potentially kill my own partner. People can come up with some stuff that may be considered cheap such as shooting lasers with two falcos, but I would just deal with it and try to find a way out eventually. To each their own though, I have accepted it as majority vote wins but definitely prefer it off.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Note that Pika + Zelda or ZSS are almost as bad. Ness is also probably a problem. Gunner might be...

If this proves to be as degenerate as it is, and isn't patched, the correct solution would be to ban default Oil Panic in teams.

We're not banning Pikachu or G&W, and we can't ban ordinary non-stalling actions in game. (What if they did it by accident? It's weird to suddenly inject this as a lose condition like this was some sort of freeze glitch. It's way better to ban the move than to say "We're going to allow this move, but if you use it successfully, you are disqualified.")

I'm not too familiar with G&W's down special options, so could you explain why only the default Oil Panic is a problem, and not Efficient Panic or Panic Overload?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Can anyone test if this is doable still in 1.03?

 

[UltiMario]

Can anyone test if this is doable still in 1.03?

I just did. It is.

 

[MrFrigid]

It sucks you can't connect with a friend and then go on "for glory" together. It would be so trollgasmic.

But yeah this shouldn't be allowed.

@ UltiMario "Put Super Mario Sunshine in your Wii. It'll clean it for you.."

IM SO DONE.

 

[Poxnixles]

It sucks you can't connect with a friend and then go on "for glory" together. It would be so trollgasmic.

But yeah this shouldn't be allowed.

@ UltiMario "Put Super Mario Sunshine in your Wii. It'll clean it for you.."

IM SO DONE.

I can see a rise in this kind of thing when the Wii U version hits, since you can have two players on the same console go online. That might get Nintendo/Bandai Namco/etc's attention better.

 

[MrFrigid]

I can see a rise in this kind of thing when the Wii U version hits, since you can have two players on the same console go online. That might get Nintendo/Bandai Namco/etc's attention better.

Setting an alarm for like 5:30pm on November 2_? "g&w pikachu lightning combo 2v2 R-A-P-E."

 

[AvariceX]

I've already seen at least one North American tournament ban Pika + GW teams. I think if we are banning it then the right way to go about it is to only ban GW + Energy projectile user (Pika, MM, Ness, etc.) or to only ban GW + the most egregious energy projectile users (Pika is the only one I know of that fills the bucket instantly, but I haven't done any testing). There's no reason to ban GW altogether when you could have a GW + MK team with no way of filling the bucket by themselves.

 

[UltiMario]

I can see a rise in this kind of thing when the Wii U version hits, since you can have two players on the same console go online. That might get Nintendo/Bandai Namco/etc's attention better.

Team attack is off when playing online teams.

 

[Eji1700]

I've already seen at least one North American tournament ban Pika + GW teams. I think if we are banning it then the right way to go about it is to only ban GW + Energy projectile user (Pika, MM, Ness, etc.) or to only ban GW + the most egregious energy projectile users (Pika is the only one I know of that fills the bucket instantly, but I haven't done any testing). There's no reason to ban GW altogether when you could have a GW + MK team with no way of filling the bucket by themselves.

Or just ban bucket 1, since all other forms of bucket don't let you do this.

 

[ZombieBran]

Turning off team attack is an amazingly horrible idea.

 

[SFA Smiley]

As a GW main I'll make this known

BUcket is Buffed and the reason it instantly fills isn't based on the amount of times the move hits

It does, but it's now also dependent on move power

Lucario at 50 % also instafills bucket with a full Aura Sphere and the head of PK Thunder fills 2 levels (although I suspect it's because you're bucketing the head and a part of the tail.

As for the strategy being overcentralizing, people should discover anti-tech before we ban it.

It's also worth noting that Oil is not a projectile, it's a normal (albeit very strong) physical attack

So yeah don't try to shine it or anything

 

[Judo777]

I think it's probably too early to ban anything, but I will say that this situation does need addressing because that tactic seems super hard to stop, without playing a comp to specifically beat that tactic (also problematic).

 

[M15t3R E]

So we ban default oil panic in teams. Why aren't the other down specials a problem too?

 

[Thinkaman]

So we ban default oil panic in teams. Why aren't the other down specials a problem too?

They do a small fraction of the damage/knockback in the exploitative cases like Thunder.

Default Pocket may also prove problematic, but let's not go crazy here.

 

[Teshie U]

I wouldn't jump on banning it solely because Japan is doing it. It looks like they are only playing on FD as well, but do you wanna do that too?

As Smiley was saying, thunder doesn't fill the bucket because its multi-hit, it fills it because the attack is strong and each 1/3 of the bucket can only take so much damage per hit now. In previous games, you could put any projectile in 1/3 of the bucket, but now each 1/3 can only take a small amount of damage and the rest will "overflow" into the next segment.

This means all extremely powerful single hit projectiles will now fill it in 1 shot, instead of 3.

As for being able to shield it, it breaks full shields and apparently causes MASSIVE hitlag to tangible targets that are invincible or have super armor. Meaning you can't use super armor or respawn invincibility to slow down the process. Meaning its essentially impossible to punish if its anywhere near you.

Thunder is by FAR the best option, as you can't stand in its way to block it and you can't stop pikachu from repeatedly doing it, but there are alot of things filling it up easily. Thunder is just ABSURDLY powerfuly, thunder-bucket does 62%, but for reference I can tell you, Megaman Fsmash Bucket does 60% and still soundly kills at 0%, Wii Fit Trainer+ bucket does 49% and still kills at 0%. So all it really takes is around 22 damage for a projectile to turn bucket into an absurd option.


Honestly, the only reasonable counter I can think of is using Fox/Megaman/Falco etc. to fill the bucket with "garbage" before the thunder reaches him (it comes from the sky after all). Forcing everyone to use doubles Fox just to counter 1 move isn't much of a solution though...

edit: villager is MUCH easier to fill with garbage

 

[Thinkaman]

You can also Void (falco) or Pocket (Villager) the Thunder before it reaches G&W.

Edit: Villager Pocket has more abuse cases than Oil Panic, though none as bad as Thunder is (with Oil Panic). Villager's gimmicks take longer for his partner to setup, and are all subject to reflectors. However, they are still realy, really good.

Pocket Thoron+ does 64% in a full screen aoe that kills most characters around 10%. Unblockable and undodgeable, you have to jump over it or reflect it.

 

[M15t3R E]

Thunder is just ABSURDLY powerfuly, thunder-bucket does 62%, but for reference I can tell you, Megaman Fsmash Bucket does 60% and still soundly kills at 0%, Wii Fit Trainer+ bucket does 49% and still kills at 0%. So all it really takes is around 22 damage for a projectile to turn bucket into an absurd option.

Or even with Samus' or Lucario's charged neutral B. EDIT: Or Robin's Thoron (thanks Thinkaman).
There are implications of this that we need to realize. Either we ban G&W himself, which nobody favors doing, we ban multiple G&W team combinations, or we ban the default oil panic. The latter option immediately sounds like the most reasonable, HOWEVER this means that we will need to make sure each Wii U has the other two options available for a G&W user. Then again, the community seems to favor using custom specials anyway.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I'm sure there are team combinations that destroy these two characters and don't give them a chance to fill it. Has anyone tried using Jiggs and tried to rest Pikachu after he thunders or G&W after he uses a bucket? Once you have them seperated just don't let them close. MR Game and Watch is such a bad character once you seperate them just bait him into doing bucket then rest him again.

Just seperate them and keep them seperated. Play to punish them if they try to get their characters near each other.

Example: If you stand between them you know they will try to get close to each other. IN that case you can anticipate their motion, and you react and punish.

PS - Another reason to allow custom moves. I can think of customs that will destroy this. YOshi's egg lay launch will be a free gimp on either if they try it near an edge.

 

[Takehiko]

What if we just ban Pocketing or Bucketing your teammates thunder. That's more reasonable because it still leaves Bucket to be used and it's something you can see happening because he's going to be at the receiving point of the thunder.

 

[M15t3R E]

What if we just ban Pocketing or Bucketing your teammates thunder. That's more reasonable because it still leaves Bucket to be used and it's something you can see happening because he's going to be at the receiving point of the thunder.

The problem is that if we don't outright make it impossible for the situation to occur (i.e. banning the oil panic move itself) there will probably be instances of teams utilizing this strategy.