Persona 4 Arena Ultimax: Out in NA, It's Time You Burn That Dread

[blindhobo]

i think i just said f*** it and tried to land a super or something

 

[LivewiresXe]

The funny thing is, I think I got lucky with a couple of random Godhand's too.

Oh, and that anti-air combo at 1:08 is freaking sick and made me go "man, I want to learn that".

 

[Minato]

Blindhobo and I lagged like crazy ._.

For some reason, my horrific lag extended into the afternoon now too... I wish I could just find out why it's so slow /o\.

I also didn't expect that random godhand to kill you wow LOL.

Checking my speed on speedtest.net and then seeing how different it is when I test connection on my PS3 for my UL and DL speed helps. Other than using ethernet, all I can suggest is manually inputting the numbers when you configure your PS3 connection and maybe open some ports.

 

[Crusayer]

The slow internet speed applies on my desktop too lol. Even youtube has been loading slower than normal.

Alberta internet is the worst ;_;

 

[Minato]

Could be your router, but that involves getting a new one, and I don't even know if that's the real problem.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Canada internet's odd in general. Hell, my internet has something where at around the same few time periods every day, it will continually disconnect-reconnect-disonnect for up to 25 minutes straight on a bad day regardless of what you're doing or even if anybody's using it.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

so, anyone know how to handle kanji as Yu? I never feel the need too do anything crazy unless i have enough meter to omc.

 

[Zankoku]

Play safe, don't try to 2B anti-air him. If you block Kanji j.C he'll land with some recovery in crouching state, so you can punish with a crouch-confirm combo if you're quick enough. Take full advantage of the fact that your 5D can force him to respect your mixup for a while, but realize when to lay off the pressure when you no longer have gapless options. Don't rely on 5D roll-past crossup setup because his DP can hit you on the recovery of your roll. Kanji usually has to be the one to go in, so if you can get him to take a risk and punish properly into knockdown, you'll be able to maximize your opportunities for 5D oki pressure games.

Watch out for Kanji's 5B (Ya want some?!), it can be used to reset into a command grab. On the other hand, don't just rely on up-back because he can catch you on jump startup with 5B 5AA. DP is somewhat useful for anti-airing if you're not sure of Kanji's jump mixup (j.B or j.C?), but most of the time you kinda want to just keep your distance or air-to-air him. DP is very risky as a wakeup option due to its complete failure against Kanji's 214D.

And uh... ask questions on specifics if I didn't cover something you were looking for.

 

[Minato]

so, anyone know how to handle kanji as Yu? I never feel the need too do anything crazy unless i have enough meter to omc.

Kanji matchup is easier than it seems and is definitely in Yu's favor. They blow up people through mostly lag and on people that are unaware of dealing with his moves. First thing to note is stay as grounded as possible. If you happen to be in the air though, you're at risk but you have ways to deal with his moves. If he does an AA grab with his Persona, I'm pretty sure a timed normal will hit it, but it's difficult. If he tries to AA you with Dive grab (reset or not), just DP him. It's a shenanigan on Yu that doesn't work unless you're bad at reacting. You're not going to want to approach in the air because of his 2B. If tiy feel ballsy enough, you can and bait his 2B with j.2A, but I wouldn't. The main reason I'm telling you to avoid being in the air is because he can do any of his D moves and then dive grab you on block.

Grounded, you have clear advantage. Utilize 5B, 5C, and 2C as best as you can and play footsies and stay in the range where he can't afford to press any buttons (Mitsuru distance basically). His A normals aren't lethal at neutral with your range, B normals not really either. 5B is good as a tick throw option like Aisight said, but they won't throw it at neutral. Some Kanji's yolo 2B on grounded opponents (I swear people do this in BB with 6A...), just punish after blocking it. j.B I tend to respect it, just because I'd rather let it whiff at max range and then try to sneak in a blockstring after they land, DPing it isn't worth it. Unless you time it so you can get him with 2 hits of the DP, you're going to be losing health from the DP faster than him getting hit by it.

Persona normals... don't let him get away with these. They're actually bad, but good on people that don't know what they're doing or if it's laggy. Reason why is because of it's startup and Narukami's options with dealing with them. 5C has long startup. Sure Kanji can hold it for a feint or just delay the attack, but there's a large window where you can sneak in a move. Reaction super it if they'll die from it if you need to (but don't do that otherwise since it's a waste of meter). If he whiffs it, break a card with Zio. 2C... it's good and gets you scared, but then you realize you can just jump over it on reaction and kill him. 5C > 2C might not be even a blockstring iirc, so don't fall for it. j.C is good, but smart Kanji's won't be greedy and do it over and over. Reason why is you can tell when he does it, which means free DP and Kanji loses a Persona card. I'm positive there's landing lag, so you can start your offense after he lands. D moves have start up, just act accordingly to that and break a card, don't get caught blocking it if you can.

What to do on his specials. Dive grab is bad, just crouch and punish it. They shouldn't be doing a yolo dive and get away with it. Chair... is actually really good. And pretty much no Kanjis in the US know how to utilize it properly lol. On neutral it can be scary (but it has some risk). If you end up blocking it, B version leaves him plus on block, he can even OMC it for high low mixup or 5B into tick throw. Cruel attack after knockdown, he can purposely delay it so the attack whiffs. This is similar to Darkstalkers which might cause you to expect to block a hit and turtle which can get you thrown. If he does the A version which is minus on block, try to IB it and then 5A or get away. Anti air grab with his Persona isn't scary at all. Kanjis will hold it and think they're smart since you can't jump. You didn't even want to jump in the first place anyways and now he can't do any Persona normals like DP/command grab/lightning/etc.

On knockdown, things get scary, especially if you're paralyzed. It's a guessing game that depends on what the Kanji player likes to think. Most will do 5AA or whatever to prevent jumps or mashing. This loses to DP, but you don't want to bet it on that. If you see him gatling into 5B, time to guess. Most likely it's a ground grab, but he can do his AA one too. If it's ground grab and you're paralyzed, don't short hop if you're betting on a grab, just 214A and combo off of it. If he's at a distance and you're paralyzed, prepare for 5C or 2C from him. Depending on his timing, you can ziocar or zio him. Basically these options by Kanji are inferior to your vortex oki since they can all be countered by something, it's just that the risk/reward on Kanji's side is good unless you land a 214A CH. To prevent Kanji's from getting too into your head, don't always tech soon as possible on the ground. Delaying your tech can be nice since it causes them to stop autopiloting. Even if they yellow beat combo you, the scaling gets pretty bad anyways. Basically just mixup your teching times depending on the situation.

When you knockdown Kanji, it's in your favor. Just be careful and stay patient. You can't safe jump him off of ziocar or CH DP, so just use Persona normals in those instances. On oki, unless you're playing a Japanese player, they're not going to be patient and will yolo something out. If he rolls, it's a bad option offline. His roll sucks so just punish on his recovery or grab him. Online it's dumb, with the short roll length and less time to react to the roll, he might mash reversal DP/super/gold burst.

Best advice overall in this matchup is stay patient, grounded, and respect his options and don't let him get away with ones that should never work. Make sure you get used to chicken blocking on your oki, know high damaging combos, and etc. If you're too far to combo into sweep, combo into 214D (I usually use C for safejumping characters I can) for that corner carry and damage. I pointed out safe parts on where he can lose his cards easily, and take advantage of that. Kanji without cards isn't good, and all his options suck. Rush him down.

I covered whatever I remembered, but if there's something I forgot or something you had specific problems with, just post. The match is in your favor and the only reason why it feels annoying is because of either netplay, or because that Kanji has to disrespect you (like he does to Mitsuru) because he has a hard time getting in.

 

[Zankoku]

Just a note that yellow combo 2B 236C 236A/B is around 800 free damage, and yellow combo 5AA 236C 236A/B is around 600, so don't just outright no-tech vs Kanji.

I can confirm that 5C 2C isn't real, and is simply done to take advantage of intimidation (or if the Kanji player is lazy). You can just jump after blocking 5C. In the mirror Kanji is able to shorthop fatal counter j.C it after blocking 5C, not sure what Narukami might do but 214A could possibly punish? Not sure on that one, so don't take my word for it. Legitimate cancel after blocked 5C is 5B, which essentially negates the huge 29f recovery it has.

btw 236A, or A Chair special, according to TheBrett, has exactly the correct frame disadv on block for Kanji to cancel into grab super, so be wary of that gimmick I guess. Just DP 236B on reaction, or if you're especially on point with reaction just 2B it. If you don't pay attention and end up blocking it, the mixup Kanji has includes 5AA to beat you mashing anything that isn't DP or catching a jump attempt, or a slightly delayed command grab. It's really bad to end up blocking this move. Don't let him blockstring you with it.

 

[LivewiresXe]

GGs to Teczero, Minato, and Sakurazaki (even though I don't think we got to play). My lobby connection was being weird and it froze on me a couple of times.

That being said, I think I MIGHT be slow-learning some things about the Shabrys matchup, and I might be picking up one or two things about the Yosuke one. Elizabeth though....that's still going to take work, I admit. Though by all means, lay it on me.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

There was a lot of sweeps, lol.

*sigh* I don't know this game anymore.

 

[LivewiresXe]

2AB is now officially known as "the broom"?

 

[Minato]

We're doing BB now btw if you're interested.

Edit: Also, do more dash 5As, Livewire. Liz can't get out. If she DPs, just react to it and back dash to completely avoid it. 5B CH combo does almost 5k I think.

 

[LivewiresXe]

I think I'll probably hold off on getting back on until tomorrow night or something, with how weird it was being. And I think my issue with using 5A is I always feel the range is punishable, so I use 2A, which I think has a much slower startup? Also, about how far is Liz's DP range wise, and how long do her and/or Brosuke's DPs stay out for?

With Shabrys, I tried to avoid taking to the air as much as I normally do, though it's admittedly tricky to figure out entirely when and when not to, but hey, was nice.

 

[Minato]

I think I'll probably hold off on getting back on until tomorrow night or something, with how weird it was being. And I think my issue with using 5A is I always feel the range is punishable, so I use 2A, which I think has a much slower startup? Also, about how far is Liz's DP range wise, and how long do her and/or Brosuke's DPs stay out for?

With Shabrys, I tried to avoid taking to the air as much as I normally do, though it's admittedly tricky to figure out entirely when and when not to, but hey, was nice.

Range for 5A doesn't matter because of your speed. You won't be punished for it unless it's on whiff, and it's really hard to do so. 2A does have more range though. Range-wise doesn't matter for Liz. If you aren't pressing a button, just backdash, regardless if you're point blank. Yosuke's DP stays out for half a second or so I think. Timing to punish is weird, so be sure to record and practice in training mode.

 

[Zankoku]

Yosuke DP is 1-47, active from 1-31.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Man, 30 frames feels like forever in the game, I swear. Though, the numbers you're giving, suggest there's about a 15-16 frame window where it's punishable, which if I'm reading into it right, is surprising.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I have internet for the night, anyone down for some matches around 10:30 Eastern time?

 

[LivewiresXe]

That sounds like it'd be a decent time for me. Lets me finish watching UFGT9 stuff anyway.

 

[Minato]

I'll be on. Rhapzody_ is my new PSN account for FG games. I might be on either of my accounts, but adding now will make it easier for future matches.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Room is up, message me for an invite

 

[Sion]

ggs guys

i swear this game is harder than i remember

 

[Minato]

This game feels so weird now. I hesitated while remembering what could combo.

GGs everyone

 

[Jam Stunna]

Good games guys. I want to get in some SF4 before I return to my webless (and now TV-less) dungeon tomorrow

 

[Lythium]

I got 7th at my tournament. Bit disappointing, but not really surprising, haha.

Slab was a fun experiment, going back to my one true love now. :3

 

[Minato]

Bananaken vs Lord Knight was so good. He played that matchup so well. This is why I think people are crazy in thinking Shabrys vs Mitsuru is one of the worst matchups in the game.

 

[Lythium]

I missed it. I want them to reset the stream, so I can watch the archive.

I do think Shabrys vs. Mitsuru is bad, but there are worse.

 

[Minato]

I know Tloc and LK consider the matchup 5-5, while I'm leaning towards 5.5-4.5. Just like when facing Narukami, it's really tough for Mitsuru to get out of those blockstrings and mixups.
IMO, I feel like there aren't any 7-3 matchups for Mitsuru.

 

[Zankoku]

I think there's an unreasonable level of hate and overestimation for Mitsuru in North America in general.

 

[Lythium]

I think there's an unreasonable level of hate and overestimation for Mitsuru in North America in general.

Agreed, we need more Chie hate.

I know Tloc and LK consider the matchup 5-5, while I'm leaning towards 5.5-4.5. Just like when facing Narukami, it's really tough for Mitsuru to get out of those blockstrings and mixups.
IMO, I feel like there aren't any 7-3 matchups for Mitsuru.

I can accept that. I just find that Asterius has trouble doing anything against her, he's just constantly getting bopped.

I need to watch that archive, and absorb the knowledge.

 

[Zankoku]

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/408623896?t=4h12m15s
Start of winners' finals

 

[LivewiresXe]

I've always maintained Liz would be about 2 tier levels higher or something if she had normal health, so there is that if we're on the subject of hate-trains, lol.

 

[Minato]

I've always maintained Liz would be about 2 tier levels higher or something if she had normal health, so there is that if we're on the subject of hate-trains, lol.

Well, low health makes sense since she can potentially have the highest health in the game because of awakening. I feel like more health wouldn't solve Liz's problems in the game. I think they should make her have her persona moves feel less straight forward and making j.C hit high. Also buff her DP so you can't tech it or even backdash to avoid it. Other than that, I'd like for Liz to have a Mind Charge to restore her persona cards.

The more I play her, she has some really neat tools that I thought were useless (Mamudoon's still bad while Mahamon is a gimmick though).
It's just too bad that while her good tools aren't bad, a lot of characters can do things straight up better.

 

[blindhobo]

i would just be happy with overhead j.C and faster normals in general. and while low health is frustrating at times, like Minato said, it doesn't get at Liz's core issue. she just feels too gimmicky and has to rely on either unfamiliarity with the character or the opponent screwing up rather than just being a strong character in her own right.

 

[Zankoku]

I don't know what happened to RockVolnutt, but he made Liz look really scary back when I played him. Other than that I'll never know how good Liz really is because 90% of all Liz players in America try to run dedicated keepaway with her and think that 5CC into 5D/2C is a legitimate mixup.

 

[Minato]

I don't know what happened to RockVolnutt, but he made Liz look really scary back when I played him. Other than that I'll never know how good Liz really is because 90% of all Liz players in America try to run dedicated keepaway with her and think that 5CC into 5D/2C is a legitimate mixup.

It's called a tick throw and a frame trap, and they are legitimate imo. 2C beats mashing, 5D beats turtling, gutsy Mabufudyne beats jumping. While Liz can't play keepaway throughout the whole match, Liz will at least try to zone with j.B and late air Maziodyne just to build some meter, so I don't disagree with those things being used in the US.

What more players need to do are sacrificing cards for frame traps, trying out more resets, and attempting her C Maragidyne oki.

 

[Zankoku]

It's only legitimate with that Mabufudyne as a final call-out, but very few Liz players reach that point.

 

[Lythium]

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/408623896?t=4h12m15s
Start of winners' finals

Thanks for the link!

I've always maintained Liz would be about 2 tier levels higher or something if she had normal health, so there is that if we're on the subject of hate-trains, lol.

I don't think really think that's true. Having higher health wouldn't fix Liz's problems.

Liz looks good on paper, and theoretically, she should be. She's designed to be monstrous at neutral with the size of her normals and how she can control space, it's just that none of it is good. Too punishable and not varied enough.

 

[Minato]

It's only legitimate with that Mabufudyne as a final call-out, but very few Liz players reach that point.

I guess as a Liz player, I have to disagree. It has its weaknesses definitely, but there are tricks to make it not as one dimensional as it seems.
Asking a Liz player to avoid zoning or doing 5C into those two routes sounds like you want her to AA or play footsies with limited damage only.