People Copying Videos

[JesiahTEG]

This was recently posted in an anonymous section of Smashboards.

"well m2k says thats what happended to him in melee. he had a harder time beating ppl because they were studying him in his videos. also his whole style of playing marth was pretty much stolen from him...and every original thing he did do with marth became "basic stuff" in weeks. so after 3 or 4 years experience yes he has decided to keep his videos private.

NL decided to keep his videos private because of the community. mainly the NJ community. he has been recieving alot of comparison to players far below him because they have stolen what he created. thus...he took all his diddy vids off his youtube account or will be doing so soon i hear.

Anther is really leagues beyond any other pikachu in the meta matchup. he preaches 55:45 alot like i do with sonic. why would he give away his tricks against meta? that would be quite dumb of him...some of the things he was doing to m2k were truly amazing...he would be a moron to make those public.

ppls problem is that...they take the time to be original and create things...and by doing that on video...those things arent original anymore. so they work really hard and stretch their characters to the max potential...and there reward is...u get to watch it and steal it? how is that fair to them?"

So people steal your ****.

If you're a bad player and someone steals your techniques, you shouldn't get upset because you're bad and it doesn't matter anyways.

If you're an average player and someone steals your techniques based off of videos, get better to the point where it won't matter if they steal your stuff, and quite frankly you don't matter anyways because there are people above you that will stomp you. Get better.

If you're a high level player and you don't want videos up because people steal your techniques, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't want your videos up. If you put a video up, someone watches it and BEATS YOU WITH THAT TECHNIQUE THEY SAW IN THE VIDEO, then ****, you deserve to lose and you're not as good as you thought you are because you lose to your own technique. Who gets beat by their own technique? Man up and win.

Now, if you are a TOP level player and you don't want your videos up, get some common sense. You are the BEST OF THE BEST, there is a REASON you are that good. Look at Ken, MLG recorded every match of him, put them online and he stayed the best until he stopped playing. Why? Because he comes up with his own techniques, and it takes a level of creativity and intelligence to do so, one that also allows you to be the good player that you are and not lose to people worse than you.

Simply put, the people watching these videos and copying are not as good, and most likely never will be as good as top players that have created these techniques. At worst, someone will copy your stuff, they'll get slightly better and other people will have to beat them in tournament, forcing both players to get better.

Also, and this goes for Melee and Brawl, every top level player is creative in their own way, and that's something that no one will be able to take away from them by watching videos. Good luck trying to copy PC's Fox. Good luck trying to copy M2K's Meta Knight. Name to me ONE person that plays like Azen's Marth and places like he does? Now, name to me one person that has tried to copy PC's Fox, and I can name a whole bunch of people that are at that skill level. Copying gets you nowhere, people shouldn't be afraid to put their vids up. Man up.

FURTHERMORE, if someone DOES copy a high level player and they then become a high level player, then they understand the whys and hows of why those techniques work, and they deserve to win.

 

[Xiivi]

Excellent stuff Jesse, thanks for putting in your input. :D

 

[Omni]

Ditto. We value your opinion.

 

[JesiahTEG]

A good example is in Melee, I always look at vids of Ken and M2K and try to copy what they do. I'm mediocre at Melee, but can't really keep up with semi pros.

Brawl forced me to think of my own stuff, since I couldn't copy anyone, and I'm much better in Brawl than I am in Melee. Granted my Brawl playstyle could use some work of course, but the fact is I'm a better player in Brawl because stuff wasn't hand fed to me. If I could start at the beginning of Melee I would because I wouldn't have other stuff to copy.

Even simple things that are habit now, like Utilt-->Spike when someones on a platform above me...I wish I'd sit down and think about every option I have, and why everything works and doesn't and why it's the best.

 

[DMG]

Yeah, with Wario this isn't an issue really. No one except the mains can use him proficiently from what we can tell, and we don't mind if people take stuff from us since we share our stuff with each other to compare our selves and try to get better collectively.

We WANT People to copy or attempt to copy us, then more people would be playing as Wario, which is always a good thing That and we are spread out amongst the regions, not more than 2-3 Wario's in a single region it seems.

 

[Browny]

Um did you actually get permission from who wrote that (I know) to post it here? The whole point of private areas on SWF is that they are private...

You could easily have just posted your opinions on the matter without quoting :/

 

[BentoBox]

Take it up with your buddies who deprived 300 spectators from live feed.

Q_Q

How many snakes have successfully copied Ally to the point where they've surpassed him? He has a ****load of vids on YT.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Exactly, that's my point. It doesn't matter if you have vids or not, the originals will always be the better players. People need to stop worrying.

 

[chaddd]

I support this thread.

But Brawl sux.

 

[Zeallyx]

Regardless, the top players have the choice wether or not they want their vids up. If they think having no vids up is the best descision, then there is nothing we can do about it.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Screw that, I have like 15 vids of me vs M2K that I'm putting up ASAP LMAO.

The TO's actually have the power. Actually, now that I think about it, if the TO wants to, he can make rules that no splitting is allowed, AND videos belong to the TO.

 

[I_R_Hungry]

The originals won't always be better players, but certainly the smarter players will be, unless the game is garbage and virtually entirely dependent on technical ability and "tricks." So yeah, there's nothing to worry about for any players who are actually confident in their ability to intelligently play the game; that said, depriving other players of video footage is still probably a good idea as far as the individual is concerned. As far as the community as a whole though, again, if the game isn't trash then "the more videos the better" probably applies 99% of the time.

 

[Mith_]

Having vids up helps build a better smash community. By having others watch your vids they get better which it turn gives you more competetion.

 

[MattDotZeb]

m2k is queer, ggz

 

[Ryan-K]

rofl at m2k considering he admitted that he uses **** from ken and azen

 

[Browny]

Jesiah, would you like it if people started uploading any and all videos vs you where you may happen to lose / do stupid things? Thats kind of a rough disclaimer to put on tourney rules 'any and all matches where players do embarassing things / lose horribly will be uploaded for all to laugh at' Or is it up to TO's to decide whether the reason people dont want videos is because theyre worried of stealing tactics / looking like bad players on youtube.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I lost to an Ike last tournament. Put it on Youtube, doesn't matter to me. All I care about is tournament placings. If someone watches vids of me and thinks I'm bad but then I go to a tournament and do good, wtf do I care what they think of my vids?

On the other hand, if I have vids that make me look bad and I go to a tournament and actually do bad, then I need to get better. That's all there is to it.

 

[ColinJF]

Great thread.

Withholding videos of top level play also has the effect of slowing the development of the metagame, which isn't a good thing.

 

[BentoBox]

Jesiah, would you like it if people started uploading any and all videos vs you where you may happen to lose / do stupid things? Thats kind of a rough disclaimer to put on tourney rules 'any and all matches where players do embarassing things / lose horribly will be uploaded for all to laugh at' Or is it up to TO's to decide whether the reason people dont want videos is because theyre worried of stealing tactics / looking like bad players on youtube.

If M2K posts videos of himself playing like crap / doing stupid things / losing horribly, will you label him as a bad player (assuming you never heard about him)? I thought everybody knew already not to judge players from videos but from their credz.

 

[Pierce7d]

You're missing a huge point here . . .

Players don't significantly care that you might know of a technique to use that they do. You also know how to deal with that player's style, and learn that player's habit, without them having an equal chance of doing the same. You can basically enter a fight with an unfair advantage, and despite being a good/better player, no one wants to have to enter a fight with a competative disadvantage. Also, if a player is willing to play with you, and requests for you not to put their stuff online, you should respect that.

Also, let's look at this real example here:

I watch videos of Boss because he's amazing. This wasn't just to study his style, he lives in the MD/VA region, and I had never run into him in tournament before I traveled and went to one of Chu's BiWeeklies.

When I fought Boss, I knew that he was going to DownB with Luigi at the start of the match to close the distance and try to catch me off guard first thing in the match, so I shielded and punished. If I didn't watch the videos of Boss merely for my own leisure, I'm pretty sure I'd have gotten hit. However, I shouldn't just eat this hit because I had an advantage of knowing Boss' style from watching vids. It would be perfectly okay for Boss to decide that to prevent this from happening in an important match, he should stop putting up vids. (It would make me sad though)

 

[neomadgic]

That's part of being competitive. Does the Indianapolis Colts stop allowing ESPN to show highlights of their games so the defense won't know his plays? Does the Dallas Cowboys blackout all their games so no one can watch them on TV?

 

[Grunt]

I don't know about you guys, but I have a hard time "copying videos" anyways. I end up doing what feels more natural to me anyways.

 

[ResidentWaffle]

Also, you can't really tell what players are doing/ how they are reading someone/ their mindgames are from videos. You need to play them in person.

 

[Browny]

Great thread.

Withholding videos of top level play also has the effect of slowing the development of the metagame, which isn't a good thing.

lol... so whats your opionion on the smash lab being completely hidden from the entire brawl community? If theres one thing which is slowing down development, its that

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

lol... so whats your opionion on the smash lab being completely hidden from the entire brawl community? If theres one thing which is slowing down development, its that

Believe me, it isn't slowing down anything.

Also, in principle, being an unknown player should have the slight advantage of being unpredictable at the very start of games, but it doesn't matter all that much anyway. By late in the tournament, most people left will either know each other or will have watched matches in which the unknown players who are performing well do well. It's pretty silly to think that your style is actually going to be hidden by withholding videos; people on smashboards will indeed know less about you, but how much is it going to help you at the tournaments you actually attend? I would wager not much if at all, and it does indeed ****** the development of the metagame somewhat (it's particularly a useful tool for weaker regions to be able to observe the play of stronger regions and really the main way that Australia and Europe can benefit from being a part of this primarily US/Canada community).

 

[ColinJF]

lol... so whats your opionion on the smash lab being completely hidden from the entire brawl community? If theres one thing which is slowing down development, its that

There aren't any secrets being kept in the smash lab. Except for a zero to death grab combo on Meta Knight that every character can do. But I'm not authorised to tell you about that.

 

[BentoBox]

By making it hidden, you choose to deepen the knowledge of a select few. The fact that you have yet to discover anything big doesn't take away from this.

 

[ColinJF]

The point of my previous post was that the smash lab isn't about secrets. If there is something to publish, it will be published. Personally, I've already done plenty to enhance everybody's knowledge, such as writing this article. It isn't my goal, or the goal of anybody in the smash lab, to keep knowledge among a select few.

 

[Hylian]

I agree 100% with the OP. I plan to put many videos online of people at tournaments I run weather they like it or not.

 

[Browny]

It isn't my goal, or the goal of anybody in the smash lab, to keep knowledge among a select few.

thats... exactly what the SL is doing at the moment

 

[JFox]

Forgive me for my presumption, but isn't this game all about novelty anyways? I mean other than surprising someone with your techniques, all you have are two people trying to outspace each other and see test who is more patient. Without novelty, how can anyone go on the offense.

sorry im not really a brawl player, so i dont know, i might not have an accurate perception from this point of view.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

lol I recorded M2K at a tourney once and he got all pissed. I didn't get it then, so thanks

 

[F00LY]

I understand the not wanting your opponent to have the advantage of knowing your styles and tricks before a match, when you could potentially know nothing about them. No matter how good you are, you don't want everything about you known by the opposition before a fight. My question is this though...

Smash is different than the majority of other fighting games out. It's unlike any other in the way the battle system works, the way individual match ups and stage location / control can control the outcome of a fight. Due to all this, isn't Smash a game of adaptation?

So your opponent comes in knowing you. Yes, it sucks. Yes, its disadvantageous. Odds are, anyone of the Pros already knows their fellow pros play styles well enough, and can adapt their own play style once discovered. I hardly doubt M2K, Ken, Azen, or anyone else has such a static play style that they can't adapt and readjust their strategies and thought patterns to match their opponents predictions.

Let us all watch. Watch yourselves. Watch others. We'll learn your tricks, you'll learn other peoples. Perhaps we can see from Anther the key to beating MKs. Then MKs will learn to adapt, and stop Pikas from further advancing on them. The cycle will continue. Eventually things will come to a slow or hit a brick wall, but until then, why not push for the advancement of the overall end-game?

 

[Mith_]

thats... exactly what the SL is doing at the moment

Not exactly I don't think.
They just organize it.
I may be wrong and I prolly am but I don't see whats wrong with having a private smash lab.

 

[Espy Rose]

This was recently posted in an anonymous section of Smashboards.



So people steal your ****.

If you're a bad player and someone steals your techniques, you shouldn't get upset because you're bad and it doesn't matter anyways.

If you're an average player and someone steals your techniques based off of videos, get better to the point where it won't matter if they steal your stuff, and quite frankly you don't matter anyways because there are people above you that will stomp you. Get better.

If you're a high level player and you don't want videos up because people steal your techniques, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't want your videos up. If you put a video up, someone watches it and BEATS YOU WITH THAT TECHNIQUE THEY SAW IN THE VIDEO, then ****, you deserve to lose and you're not as good as you thought you are because you lose to your own technique. Who gets beat by their own technique? Man up and win.

Now, if you are a TOP level player and you don't want your videos up, get some common sense. You are the BEST OF THE BEST, there is a REASON you are that good. Look at Ken, MLG recorded every match of him, put them online and he stayed the best until he stopped playing. Why? Because he comes up with his own techniques, and it takes a level of creativity and intelligence to do so, one that also allows you to be the good player that you are and not lose to people worse than you.

Simply put, the people watching these videos and copying are not as good, and most likely never will be as good as top players that have created these techniques. At worst, someone will copy your stuff, they'll get slightly better and other people will have to beat them in tournament, forcing both players to get better.

Also, and this goes for Melee and Brawl, every top level player is creative in their own way, and that's something that no one will be able to take away from them by watching videos. Good luck trying to copy PC's Fox. Good luck trying to copy M2K's Meta Knight. Name to me ONE person that plays like Azen's Marth and places like he does? Now, name to me one person that has tried to copy PC's Fox, and I can name a whole bunch of people that are at that skill level. Copying gets you nowhere, people shouldn't be afraid to put their vids up. Man up.

FURTHERMORE, if someone DOES copy a high level player and they then become a high level player, then they understand the whys and hows of why those techniques work, and they deserve to win.

I love you.

I always laugh when I hear of M2K or NL saying not to record their matches because they don't want people "stealing" from them.

Top leveled players need to stop being so insecure about their abilities and just ADAPT to the changes.

If you can't handle a change in the metagame that you yourself caused, you don't deserve to be at the top.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

You're missing a huge point here . . .

Players don't significantly care that you might know of a technique to use that they do. You also know how to deal with that player's style, and learn that player's habit, without them having an equal chance of doing the same. You can basically enter a fight with an unfair advantage, and despite being a good/better player, no one wants to have to enter a fight with a competative disadvantage. Also, if a player is willing to play with you, and requests for you not to put their stuff online, you should respect that.

This doesn't really matter. You might be familiar with a players style, but good players know how to adapt and change it up. You might learn their style, but what if they notice you are onto them? Good players will. It shouldn't matter to players at that level because they are likely to come out on top.

Also, let's look at this real example here:

I watch videos of Boss because he's amazing. This wasn't just to study his style, he lives in the MD/VA region, and I had never run into him in tournament before I traveled and went to one of Chu's BiWeeklies.

When I fought Boss, I knew that he was going to DownB with Luigi at the start of the match to close the distance and try to catch me off guard first thing in the match, so I shielded and punished. If I didn't watch the videos of Boss merely for my own leisure, I'm pretty sure I'd have gotten hit. However, I shouldn't just eat this hit because I had an advantage of knowing Boss' style from watching vids. It would be perfectly okay for Boss to decide that to prevent this from happening in an important match, he should stop putting up vids. (It would make me sad though)

That just has to do with him being predictable. Boss is good, and should notice people expect Luigi to do this at the start of the match, and not do it every time. Which brings me to my next point: Did you actually beat Boss? You obviously got one punish on him, but was it enough to win the match?

 

[Ryan-K]

When I fought Boss, I knew that he was going to DownB with Luigi at the start of the match to close the distance and try to catch me off guard first thing in the match, so I shielded and punished.

Maybe he should stop doing the same thing at the start of every match instead of taking down videos.

 

[nevershootme]

they're just doing this so they can rack up more money

 

[PathToEternity]

No johns ?

 

[Lord Knight]

FURTHERMORE, if someone DOES copy a high level player and they then become a high level player, then they understand the whys and hows of why those techniques work, and they deserve to win.

Like me LOL.

Anyway just put up your vids, who cares if your **** gets "stolen", usually the innovators keep innovating in the first place.