Corrupted
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2008
- Messages
- 446
The reason I made this thread is beacuse a lot of people are not abusing the float mechanics and her autocanceling/low landing lag aerials enough. Peach has, without a doubt, the scariest shield pressure game out of the whole cast, with so many unpredictable and safe mix-ups. I'm going to go character specific on which options are the best, at any percent. I will use frame data, hitboxes and character mechanics from both sides of the match up to back this up.
Some info before I get started:
For frame data and checking what characters can do OoS)
1 second = 60 frames in the game
Shield drop = 7 frames
Jump = 5 frames, you can use aerial on frame 6
First of all, which are her safest moves on shield? These are the ones that stand out:
Fair
Duration: 54
Hits on Frame: 16 (max range @ 17)
Hitbox Duration: 16-19 (4)
Aerial Cooldown: 35
Landing Lag: 22
Autocancels on Frame: 20
Shield stun: 5
Optimal Shield Advantage (assumes hitting with F17 hitbox): 0, -2
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +7, +5
This is ridiculous. Try to find another character with a move that can produce advantages like this. Practice autocanceling this move as late as posiple to get the best shield advantage (without fast falling because that adds 2 hard landing!). After this move hits a shield in these circumstances, your opponent is still in his shield and your free to do anything. Fair has great shield knockback too which further limits OoS options. This move, on its own, is unpunishable on shield when auto canceled correctly (against most characters even when spaced badly).
The options after the fair
- Jab (frame 2): Low risk, low reward. This or a spotdodge are the best options when spaced very badly and should avoid you being punished by a shield grab as long as you don't get predicted.
- Dtilt (frame 12): after the Fair is simply amazing. The start-up of this move is a non-issue because your opponent can't hit you before it comes out when spaced well (most of the cast). Don't use this when the fair isn't spaced well the start-up when becomes an issue. OoS aerials will also lift then above the hitbox so use the dtilt slide to evade/punish them.
- Dash grab (frame 6): This may sound silly but I've had great succes with this mix-up. Spotdodge is the last thing you opponent will want to do after the fair connects and the dash-grab is very fast so you can't do it on reaction. A buffered (or very short dash) dash grab won't work when the fair is spaced very well. This is good when you can take the risk (no kill percents) and your opponent is in chain grab percentages.
- Gound float nair (frame 8) After you land dash, ground float, nair and drop asap. If they predict you they most can shield grab you before the nair but even that is hard. This is AMAZING vs tether grabs they can't shield grab and mostly won't have a fast enough option that comes out fast enough. This extra nice when they are in kill percentages, when a jab lock can be initiated or it can be combo'ed into something else.
- Float (5 frame jump + air frames): When spaced nicely just jump up and float they try to do anything rash evade and dair. Plain, simple and very safe but no immediate reward.
Dair
Duration: 39
Hits on Frame: 12, 18, 24, 30
Hitbox Duration: each hitbox lasts 2 frames
Aerial Cooldown: 8
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancels on Frame: 32
Shield Stun: 1
Optimal Shield Advadvantage: -9
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: -2
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: -3 (-5 hard landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +4, +2
Look at that autocancel advantage. Then look at that cooldown. Then think of the pay off when it hits. This move is screaming broken. This move can't really be 'spaced' well when going for the early autocancel, but that doesn't really matter when you can continue the pressure so fast. When in float when you DI away after the last hit, it is unpunishable on shield (mainly due to the evasiveness of float and how it eliminates OoS options). To autocancel this correctly drop soon-ish in a normal level float, Sh ff it or something else.. just learn how to autocancel this well.
When you autocancel this correctly and land in front of someone it becomes CQC (close quarter combat): The dair itself can't be punished and you are both in the same position.. BUT your opponent is still in his shield. This means Peach has the advantage of not having his options limited by shield and Peach has an amazing CQC game (though reward isn't normally too baffeling). Good, but not amazing.
When you land behind the opponent you're at a great advantage. They are again forced in their shield but they are facing the wrong way round. This means that any further pressure you do to their shield can't be shield grabbed in between hits. Your best options are the following.
Ground float bair (11 frames) nair (8 frames): These are very safe on shield with shield grab eliminated. Bair is slower but has 2 frames less landing lag, it really doesn't matter too much.
Stutter step backwards Fsmash (15 frames + 2 frames): This is pretty cool at kill percents. The stutter step spaces you better and makes it hard for your opponent to hit you before the hitbox comes out. The fsmash itself can be punished though so there is risk to it.
Ground float Uair (13 frames): very nice vs taller characters to start a uair string (below tumble percentages) or to start a juggle. Only 9 frames of (landing)lag so unpunishable in most cases.
Sh dair (17 frames): 2 dairs = good chance of a shield break, and if that doesn't do it you can nair before you land. Slow start up like fsmash but at low percentages great pay off. It beats shield and spotdodge but loses to slow OoS options before it comes out.
Grab (6 frames): Very, very solid. They won't be able to punish before it comes out so you force a spotdodge. Nice pay off at chain grab percentages.
Dsmash (6 frames): Will beat spotdodoge, will poke shield, fast. Low reward at high percents, oke to good reward at low percents.
Things not to use:
Jab: Reward is way too low for a cross-up with such an amazing shield advantage.
Dtilt: You're very close to the opponent so it can't be spaced well making the start up an issue. Ground float nair/bair/uair have less lag too.
Float: You're a sitting duck when floating too near by. Baiting is less effective because you have to pay more attention to what they do OoS instead off being completly out of their range).
Stuff on float dair:
After you dair a shield in float, your opponent will have more than enough time to counter attack before another dair has the chance to come out (exept Jiggs, Link and Ganon due to bad OoS options). The thing is though, your opponent does not know if you are going for a (12 frame start up) dair or fast fall from the float and use a (frame 3) nair. The nair will come out before they can do anything (shieldgrab is possible, but very tricky) so if they try to punish, they get hit. But if they stay in their shield, you could perform another dair and they get a poked/broken shield. It's basically a guessing game where you always have the advantage. You can also just float away instead or nairing, you will be far away enough to not get hit by a OoS option.
There is a risk when going for another Dair. Some characters have very nasty moves that can hit you before the dair comes out. Some things you should look out for when you are in kill percentages are Fox Usmash, Zelda Usmash, Ice Climbers Usmash. These can be performed OoS will jump canceling. Other character can use a damaging or comboing aerial too (like G&W nair) so like before, judge the risk-reward ratio. Ona side note some bad players won't be able to counter attack inbetween the dairs even though their character can. If they roll away try to chase with a fair/bair.
Nair
Duration: 49
Hits on Frame: 3
Strong Hitbox Duration: 3-6 (4)
Weak Hitbox Duration: 7-23 (17)
Aerial Cooldown: 26
Landing Lag: 11
Autocancels on Frame: 36
Shield Stun: 4, 3
Optimal Shield Advantage: -7
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: 0
Specifically Ground float nair to instant drop. Another move with a ridiculous shield advantage. Try to perform the aerial as close as possible to the ground for the best shield advantage.
Characters that can't shield grab a well spaced nair due to grab range or sliding mechanics:
(from best chance to worst chance) (all have 6 frame grab)
Pit
MK
Jigglypuff
Ike
Sonic
Pika
Sheik
Lucario
Wolf
ICs
Mario
Luigi
G&W
Captain Falcon
Ganon
Characters that can't shield grab due to slow grab:
Olimar
ZSS
Samus
Link
Lucas
Toon Link
Yoshi
Ivysaur
Snake (frame 8)
DK (frame 8)
Bowser (frame 9)
Zelda (frame 12)
The rest (still requires VERY tight timing to shield grab before we jab/spotdodge):
DDD
Charzard
Squirtle
Marth
Diddy
Snake
Kirby
ROB
Peach
Fox
Falco
Ness
Wario
So basically tethers get destroyed, you can do:
Dash grab: They can do much but spotdodge. Attempt when the reward is high enough
Dash attack: Second hit will hit the spotdodgers and its pretty safe on shield. ^see the perfect circle?
Bait with float: Make them move first and opportunize.
Against the others Jab/spotdodge/shield and enter the CQC guessing game.
Bair
Duration: 55
Hits on Frame: 6
Strong Hitbox Duration: 6-8 (3)
Weak Hitbox Duration: 9-19 (11)
Aerial Cooldown: 36
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancels on Frame: 20
Shield stun: 5, 2
Optimal Shield Advantage: -4 (hard hit then land)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +3
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: 0 (weak hit bair -> ac landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +7
Ok so there is one very wierd thing about this move. The landing animation makes Peach jump forward (direction of the bair that is) quite a bit. Why is this usetul? When up-close this makes cross-ups very easy. Cross ups are **** and a ground float bair to drop gives you a -4 disadvantage (which is basically a massive advantage when you are behind someone's shield). DI behind you opponent during the start-up of the move to make sure you land behind them. This doesn't work vs IC's and Luigi they slide too far when the bair connects with their shield. If the cross-up failed (you were too far away or didn't DI enough) buffer a turnaround jab or spotdodge to avoid grab. Try attempting this when both players are staying in their shield (this is fast and will beat spotdodges and their shield will already be weakened).
Options after cross-up:
Dsmash (6 frames): Will beat spotdodoge, good chance to poke shield, poke shield, fast. Low reward at high percents, oke to good reward at low percents.
Ground float nair to jab: Yeah not too much they can do about this.
Dtilt:
Duration: 27
Hits on Frame: 12
Hitbox Duration: 12-13 (2)
Cooldown: 14
Shield Stun: 3
Shield Advantage: -13
Shield Drop advantage: -6
There has been a lot of hype around this move recently.. and for good reason. Very safe on shield when spaced well. Use the dtilt slide if you haven't spaced it well. Not much to say here.
6/2/10 - Stuff on float dair added
************W.I.P.************
Some info before I get started:
For frame data and checking what characters can do OoS)
1 second = 60 frames in the game
Shield drop = 7 frames
Jump = 5 frames, you can use aerial on frame 6
First of all, which are her safest moves on shield? These are the ones that stand out:
Fair
Duration: 54
Hits on Frame: 16 (max range @ 17)
Hitbox Duration: 16-19 (4)
Aerial Cooldown: 35
Landing Lag: 22
Autocancels on Frame: 20
Shield stun: 5
Optimal Shield Advantage (assumes hitting with F17 hitbox): 0, -2
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +7, +5
This is ridiculous. Try to find another character with a move that can produce advantages like this. Practice autocanceling this move as late as posiple to get the best shield advantage (without fast falling because that adds 2 hard landing!). After this move hits a shield in these circumstances, your opponent is still in his shield and your free to do anything. Fair has great shield knockback too which further limits OoS options. This move, on its own, is unpunishable on shield when auto canceled correctly (against most characters even when spaced badly).
The options after the fair
- Jab (frame 2): Low risk, low reward. This or a spotdodge are the best options when spaced very badly and should avoid you being punished by a shield grab as long as you don't get predicted.
- Dtilt (frame 12): after the Fair is simply amazing. The start-up of this move is a non-issue because your opponent can't hit you before it comes out when spaced well (most of the cast). Don't use this when the fair isn't spaced well the start-up when becomes an issue. OoS aerials will also lift then above the hitbox so use the dtilt slide to evade/punish them.
- Dash grab (frame 6): This may sound silly but I've had great succes with this mix-up. Spotdodge is the last thing you opponent will want to do after the fair connects and the dash-grab is very fast so you can't do it on reaction. A buffered (or very short dash) dash grab won't work when the fair is spaced very well. This is good when you can take the risk (no kill percents) and your opponent is in chain grab percentages.
- Gound float nair (frame 8) After you land dash, ground float, nair and drop asap. If they predict you they most can shield grab you before the nair but even that is hard. This is AMAZING vs tether grabs they can't shield grab and mostly won't have a fast enough option that comes out fast enough. This extra nice when they are in kill percentages, when a jab lock can be initiated or it can be combo'ed into something else.
- Float (5 frame jump + air frames): When spaced nicely just jump up and float they try to do anything rash evade and dair. Plain, simple and very safe but no immediate reward.
Dair
Duration: 39
Hits on Frame: 12, 18, 24, 30
Hitbox Duration: each hitbox lasts 2 frames
Aerial Cooldown: 8
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancels on Frame: 32
Shield Stun: 1
Optimal Shield Advadvantage: -9
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: -2
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: -3 (-5 hard landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +4, +2
Look at that autocancel advantage. Then look at that cooldown. Then think of the pay off when it hits. This move is screaming broken. This move can't really be 'spaced' well when going for the early autocancel, but that doesn't really matter when you can continue the pressure so fast. When in float when you DI away after the last hit, it is unpunishable on shield (mainly due to the evasiveness of float and how it eliminates OoS options). To autocancel this correctly drop soon-ish in a normal level float, Sh ff it or something else.. just learn how to autocancel this well.
When you autocancel this correctly and land in front of someone it becomes CQC (close quarter combat): The dair itself can't be punished and you are both in the same position.. BUT your opponent is still in his shield. This means Peach has the advantage of not having his options limited by shield and Peach has an amazing CQC game (though reward isn't normally too baffeling). Good, but not amazing.
When you land behind the opponent you're at a great advantage. They are again forced in their shield but they are facing the wrong way round. This means that any further pressure you do to their shield can't be shield grabbed in between hits. Your best options are the following.
Ground float bair (11 frames) nair (8 frames): These are very safe on shield with shield grab eliminated. Bair is slower but has 2 frames less landing lag, it really doesn't matter too much.
Stutter step backwards Fsmash (15 frames + 2 frames): This is pretty cool at kill percents. The stutter step spaces you better and makes it hard for your opponent to hit you before the hitbox comes out. The fsmash itself can be punished though so there is risk to it.
Ground float Uair (13 frames): very nice vs taller characters to start a uair string (below tumble percentages) or to start a juggle. Only 9 frames of (landing)lag so unpunishable in most cases.
Sh dair (17 frames): 2 dairs = good chance of a shield break, and if that doesn't do it you can nair before you land. Slow start up like fsmash but at low percentages great pay off. It beats shield and spotdodge but loses to slow OoS options before it comes out.
Grab (6 frames): Very, very solid. They won't be able to punish before it comes out so you force a spotdodge. Nice pay off at chain grab percentages.
Dsmash (6 frames): Will beat spotdodoge, will poke shield, fast. Low reward at high percents, oke to good reward at low percents.
Things not to use:
Jab: Reward is way too low for a cross-up with such an amazing shield advantage.
Dtilt: You're very close to the opponent so it can't be spaced well making the start up an issue. Ground float nair/bair/uair have less lag too.
Float: You're a sitting duck when floating too near by. Baiting is less effective because you have to pay more attention to what they do OoS instead off being completly out of their range).
Stuff on float dair:
After you dair a shield in float, your opponent will have more than enough time to counter attack before another dair has the chance to come out (exept Jiggs, Link and Ganon due to bad OoS options). The thing is though, your opponent does not know if you are going for a (12 frame start up) dair or fast fall from the float and use a (frame 3) nair. The nair will come out before they can do anything (shieldgrab is possible, but very tricky) so if they try to punish, they get hit. But if they stay in their shield, you could perform another dair and they get a poked/broken shield. It's basically a guessing game where you always have the advantage. You can also just float away instead or nairing, you will be far away enough to not get hit by a OoS option.
There is a risk when going for another Dair. Some characters have very nasty moves that can hit you before the dair comes out. Some things you should look out for when you are in kill percentages are Fox Usmash, Zelda Usmash, Ice Climbers Usmash. These can be performed OoS will jump canceling. Other character can use a damaging or comboing aerial too (like G&W nair) so like before, judge the risk-reward ratio. Ona side note some bad players won't be able to counter attack inbetween the dairs even though their character can. If they roll away try to chase with a fair/bair.
Nair
Duration: 49
Hits on Frame: 3
Strong Hitbox Duration: 3-6 (4)
Weak Hitbox Duration: 7-23 (17)
Aerial Cooldown: 26
Landing Lag: 11
Autocancels on Frame: 36
Shield Stun: 4, 3
Optimal Shield Advantage: -7
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: 0
Specifically Ground float nair to instant drop. Another move with a ridiculous shield advantage. Try to perform the aerial as close as possible to the ground for the best shield advantage.
Characters that can't shield grab a well spaced nair due to grab range or sliding mechanics:
(from best chance to worst chance) (all have 6 frame grab)
Pit
MK
Jigglypuff
Ike
Sonic
Pika
Sheik
Lucario
Wolf
ICs
Mario
Luigi
G&W
Captain Falcon
Ganon
Characters that can't shield grab due to slow grab:
Olimar
ZSS
Samus
Link
Lucas
Toon Link
Yoshi
Ivysaur
Snake (frame 8)
DK (frame 8)
Bowser (frame 9)
Zelda (frame 12)
The rest (still requires VERY tight timing to shield grab before we jab/spotdodge):
DDD
Charzard
Squirtle
Marth
Diddy
Snake
Kirby
ROB
Peach
Fox
Falco
Ness
Wario
So basically tethers get destroyed, you can do:
Dash grab: They can do much but spotdodge. Attempt when the reward is high enough
Dash attack: Second hit will hit the spotdodgers and its pretty safe on shield. ^see the perfect circle?
Bait with float: Make them move first and opportunize.
Against the others Jab/spotdodge/shield and enter the CQC guessing game.
Bair
Duration: 55
Hits on Frame: 6
Strong Hitbox Duration: 6-8 (3)
Weak Hitbox Duration: 9-19 (11)
Aerial Cooldown: 36
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancels on Frame: 20
Shield stun: 5, 2
Optimal Shield Advantage: -4 (hard hit then land)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +3
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: 0 (weak hit bair -> ac landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +7
Ok so there is one very wierd thing about this move. The landing animation makes Peach jump forward (direction of the bair that is) quite a bit. Why is this usetul? When up-close this makes cross-ups very easy. Cross ups are **** and a ground float bair to drop gives you a -4 disadvantage (which is basically a massive advantage when you are behind someone's shield). DI behind you opponent during the start-up of the move to make sure you land behind them. This doesn't work vs IC's and Luigi they slide too far when the bair connects with their shield. If the cross-up failed (you were too far away or didn't DI enough) buffer a turnaround jab or spotdodge to avoid grab. Try attempting this when both players are staying in their shield (this is fast and will beat spotdodges and their shield will already be weakened).
Options after cross-up:
Dsmash (6 frames): Will beat spotdodoge, good chance to poke shield, poke shield, fast. Low reward at high percents, oke to good reward at low percents.
Ground float nair to jab: Yeah not too much they can do about this.
Dtilt:
Duration: 27
Hits on Frame: 12
Hitbox Duration: 12-13 (2)
Cooldown: 14
Shield Stun: 3
Shield Advantage: -13
Shield Drop advantage: -6
There has been a lot of hype around this move recently.. and for good reason. Very safe on shield when spaced well. Use the dtilt slide if you haven't spaced it well. Not much to say here.
6/2/10 - Stuff on float dair added
************W.I.P.************
. You suffer shield hitlag for every attack aside from projectiles. The only exception to this that I can think of is MK's nado.... but then again you may be able to define the hitbox as a projectile hitbox; come to think of it it sure acts like one. 
