Path of Radiance: Ike Guide and Strategy Discussion

[DaBeast]

Wrong video lol.

 

[san.]

http://www.twitch.tv/gatorgaming/c/5249752 ?

 

[gsninja]

The way I've been fighting til now is really similar to how Ryo does it in the video. Maybe I am doing something right.

 

[CommanderVimes]

That video reminds me, this is the second Sm4sh tournament I've seen where the winner of the round was able to pick a different a character in the next one. Is this a common thing? It kind of goes against everything else I know about fighting game tournaments.

 

[NT 3000]

How exactly can you jab cancel with Ike? I'm assuming it's not as easy as before but I would like to cancel it before jab 3 gets shielded. Also does Ike has any new AT's like forward roll cancelled grab?

Counter sliding is back. New ATs not much that I can think of. Jab canceling is almost impossible with ike in this game. I'll jab 1-2 then dwn tilt after. Also something I've noticed that works wonders with nair spacing is dwn tilting after. I can't tell you how many times I've punished whiffed grabs with that.

 

[The TaBuu]

Counter sliding is back. New ATs not much that I can think of. Jab canceling is almost impossible with ike in this game. I'll jab 1-2 then dwn tilt after. Also something I've noticed that works wonders with nair spacing is dwn tilting after. I can't tell you how many times I've punished whiffed grabs with that.

Nair > Dtilt is my BnB with this big boy honestly
Maybe it's just me but I absolutely love smacking the living daylights out of people with Ike's Fair off-stage. #toosatisfying

 

[NT 3000]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDkNkNPWYY&feature=youtu.be

Not sure how we can utilize this AT yet but looks interesting

 

[san.]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDkNkNPWYY&feature=youtu.be

Not sure how we can utilize this AT yet but looks interesting

Pretty easily. Ike's air dodge autocancels on short hop, and on battlefield, you can full hop + air dodge and it autocancels on the platforms (lol). Even so, you can cancel the lag with any of Ike's aerials right when you land. Ike can Full hop + AD, double jump + AD, and AD again with enough time to input an aerial right before landing. I do that a few times to abuse the invincibility frames right after killing an opponent.

 

[CommanderVimes]

Is there a difference between full hop and maximum first jump? I seem to only have two variations of jump heights.

 

[san.]

Is there a difference between full hop and maximum first jump? I seem to only have two variations of jump heights.

Yeah, they're the same thing. Holding/ vs tapping/flicking jump.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

That video reminds me, this is the second Sm4sh tournament I've seen where the winner of the round was able to pick a different a character in the next one. Is this a common thing? It kind of goes against everything else I know about fighting game tournaments.

It's called counterpicking characters. It's been done before in other fighters as well, just not as often as it does is Smash and it's usually the loser of the last game that chooses to pick a better match up. IIRC, in last year's EVO 2013, Infiltration switched from Akuma to a character who could counter Zangief(?).

 

[CommanderVimes]

I understand counter-picking, as it gives the loser a chance to pick someone else if their first was countered hard. But here the winning player switched the next round, which to me is the opposite of a counter-pick. Now the losing player has to reevaluate their reads since the other player has a new strategy, and it does not give them the option to counterpick because the winner is not locked into a character, and can potentially counter the counter pick, even if it is done by blind picking.

 

[Deathcarter]

I understand counter-picking, as it gives the loser a chance to pick someone else if their first was countered hard. But here the winning player switched the next round, which to me is the opposite of a counter-pick. Now the losing player has to reevaluate their reads since the other player has a new strategy, and it does not give them the option to counterpick because the winner is not locked into a character, and can potentially counter the counter pick, even if it is done by blind picking.

Wouldn't the loser choose his character after the winner? Meaning that the Shulk could have theoretically counter-picked the winner's Samus if he so desired. I was never under the impression that the winner had to stick with his previous character.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

No one is character locked. The process goes as is after a game:
-winner bans stages
-loser counterpicks stage
-winner may decide to switch character
-loser may decide to switch character
-next game begins

Even though it may not be the case here, in many other sets CP-ing a stage to force a character change is a thing. In Melee for example, P1 played Fox and P2 played Peach. Let's say P1 wins, and knowing the matchup bans Final Destination to avoid getting chain grabbed to death. Now assume P2 knows that P1 also mains Marth, and prefers the Peach:Marth MU to the Peach:Fox. Thus, to try to force the switch, P2 picks Yoshi's Story in hopes of making P1 pick Marth because of how good of a stage YI is for Marth. P1 then switches to Marth and P2 decides to stay Peach. Does that make sense?

 

[NT 3000]

No one is character locked. The process goes as is after a game:
-winner bans stages
-loser counterpicks stage
-winner may decide to switch character
-loser may decide to switch character
-next game begins

Even though it may not be the case here, in many other sets CP-ing a stage to force a character change is a thing. In Melee for example, P1 played Fox and P2 played Peach. Let's say P1 wins, and knowing the matchup bans Final Destination to avoid getting chain grabbed to death. Now assume P2 knows that P1 also mains Marth, and prefers the Peach:Marth MU to the Peach:Fox. Thus, to try to force the switch, P2 picks Yoshi's Story in hopes of making P1 pick Marth because of how good of a stage YI is for Marth. P1 then switches to Marth and P2 decides to stay Peach. Does that make sense?

Very well put.

 

[CommanderVimes]

Ah yes. When the hardcore smash fans took over my college's tournament they implemented similar rules. Oi, it had it go 3 hours over schedule, but it was better than the previous FFA w/item elimination stages. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[link and ike lover]

Great job San!

 

[C4-]

hey guys, i had a few questions about jab canceling. I know jab canceling with ike is still in smash 4 and that its been nerfed but i was wondering if anyone has found any usage for it ? Ive found that jab 1 into D-tilt can be pretty effective and the occasional Jab 1 turnaround back air can sometimes hit if they aren't expecting it but other than that i cant find any other uses being that when i start jabbing most people can get some kind of aerial or jab off before i can do anything with the jab cancel. hopefully i didn't make that to confusing lol thanks in advance for any input on it.

 

[san.]

hey guys, i had a few questions about jab canceling. I know jab canceling with ike is still in smash 4 and that its been nerfed but i was wondering if anyone has found any usage for it ? Ive found that jab 1 into D-tilt can be pretty effective and the occasional Jab 1 turnaround back air can sometimes hit if they aren't expecting it but other than that i cant find any other uses being that when i start jabbing most people can get some kind of aerial or jab off before i can do anything with the jab cancel. hopefully i didn't make that to confusing lol thanks in advance for any input on it.

There's not much more than that and jab1->grab. Fortunately, Ike can combo pretty well out of grab so there's still some use. Sometimes, jab1 pops people up at just the right angle where they can't do anything and you can uptilt them.

Combat walking is still in, where you hold A and people bounce out of jab2 but gets hit by jab1 and resets the jab combo. I don't recommend trying to jab cancel vs. finishing the combo or jab1->followup or jab1->2->reset to neutral for those fastfallers jab3 doesn't work too well against.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Now that Ike's aether traps people, I'm really really liking it. I've caught soo many floaties and spacing people with that move that it just seems ridiculous. Makes me wanna go ahead and say ike pretty much has a vertical projectile that transitions into a lock and racks up a good chunk of damage regardless of how high their percentage is.

 

[CommanderVimes]

Does it trap people consistently for you? I get it to happen a good number of times, but usually as a read chase or poor edge guard punish. They seem to pop out if I try for it in neutral, which makes me think it has relatively strict timing.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

Wrong video lol.

Whelp. Fixed it after who cares how long. And yeah, it's the match san linked.

 

[doom dragon 105]

What do you guys like to do off grabs? I see you guys saying his grabs are buffed, but I can't find anything special that I couldn't do in Brawl

 

[CommanderVimes]

I hear people saying he can Nair into grab at early percents, but that is too tricky for me atm. I like to combo aether from throw at low percents, myself.
And I'm probably a pretty lame example, but I find the large horizontal/small vertical knock backs and fthrow and bthrow are neat for quick dair gimps.

 

[san.]

Dthrow can combo into other attacks until around 60%. If you're at a high percent, that drops to around 40%. My favorite at low percents is to do dthrow->turnaround+bair->fast fall and intercept for a shield grab or pivot grab and repeat. Nair is probably the worst followup out of dthrow that hits.

 

[CommanderVimes]

Dthrow can combo into other attacks until around 60%. If you're at a high percent, that drops to around 40%. My favorite at low percents is to do dthrow->turnaround+bair->fast fall and intercept for a shield grab or pivot grab and repeat. Nair is probably the worst followup out of dthrow that hits.

Is a dthrow-)fair super guaranteed at low percentages?

 

[san.]

Is a dthrow-)fair super guaranteed at low percentages?

Fair is guaranteed. There is a point where a full hop fair won't be able to reach ~20-30% area, but a quick double jump + fair does (have to be quick).

 

[Mario766]

Does up throw connect into anything when down throw doesn't? If not, I don't see much uses for up throw.

 

[san.]

Does up throw connect into anything when down throw doesn't? If not, I don't see much uses for up throw.

Maybe. I haven't really tested against VI, but you have to be incredibly fast with the first hitboxes of uair or fair above 70% for some characters to be considered a combo. It's likely that good VI makes it impossible, but it'll still be a relatively good frame trap when screwing up will give you the kill. There's also the chance where it's not exactly a combo, but it'll still hit during the initial vulnerable frames of an airdodge.

 

[-RedX-]

At high percents, Uthrow generally has less knockback than Dthrow which lets Ike frame trap into Uair and force them to double jump, airdodges gets eaten up by Uair. I reccomend using it to keep Dthrow fresh at higher percents because if you have enough Rage, Dthrow becomes a reasonable kill move. lol

 

[san.]

Indeed. Double jump is instant while air dodge begins invincibility on frame 4.

 

[tm730]

is up throw/down throw to aether a good combo?

or can it be VI/DI out of?

ive done it quite a few times and its been mostly succesful

 

[san.]

is up throw/down throw to aether a good combo?

or can it be VI/DI out of?

ive done it quite a few times and its been mostly succesful

Because of rage, it's not very reliable once you are at mid percents or higher unless the target is Bowser-sized.

 

[Monjula]

So, I have a derpy, extremely situational mid-damage (50-70) combo that depends on the opponent's input, but damn does it feel good to do when it happens. When recovering, I like to, if possible, hit the opponent with aether and come down grabbing the ledge. If done right, this bounces them off the ground and within edge jump recovery range. If you're able to catch the opponent off the bounce, they can't recover in time, and you can recover from the edge in time to whatever-air you want to do within reach.

Again, extremely situational, but it feels so great when it hits. Anyone else do this combo...?

 

[Monjula]

Because of rage, it's not very reliable once you are at mid percents or higher unless the target is Bowser-sized.

Another thing, at low percents it can be avoided, but it's still a lot harder to get around. Still, I find jumping up after the opponent and reacting to their DI to be more effective, and you can get the fullness of Aether or nair, fair, or even bair work well.

 

[Monjula]

What do you guys like to do off grabs? I see you guys saying his grabs are buffed, but I can't find anything special that I couldn't do in Brawl

Personally it depends.

Low %, dthrow into jump- > aerial whatever you want, depending on their input.

Mid %, uthrow for the same idea (seems to me that at mid ranges uthrow works better because opponents don't fly as high.) If I'm near an edge though, I throw the opponent off and try to chase with fair (mid %) or bair (high % finisher).

Getting the opponent to get used to going straight up is a nice mind game for the edge throws, because they get used to jumping after throw, which means they are a bit more likely to get caught by a follow up jump f or b air.

....That's my experience at least.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Does it trap people consistently for you? I get it to happen a good number of times, but usually as a read chase or poor edge guard punish. They seem to pop out if I try for it in neutral, which makes me think it has relatively strict timing.

I wouldn't say consistently, but once you get a vibe of when your opponent is at the right distance, you will very likely have them locked in aether. I tried it alot of times in practice just to get a right feel of when to aether. It is risky though, especially if your opponent is very near you and you whiff but id say its worth the risk.

 

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

@ san. You think you can add your stuff to the list of guides? Realized there's no Ike representation there.

 

[san.]

@ san. You think you can add your stuff to the list of guides? Realized there's no Ike representation there.

Not sure where that is, I'll be sure to when I can. I learned many new things since I last updated, and I've only gone slightly in-depth on jab so far -_-

I forgot to mention this before since it's more situational, but a landing uair has more combo potential than nair. Feel free to follow up with utilt and aerials up to middle-high percents if you get it off. It's pretty practical if you can uair as a juggle close to the ground, because your 18 frames of lag almost guarantees a jab compared to their 22 frames of lag from the air dodge.

 

[NT 3000]

Is anyone else frustrated by how little shield push there is...also because there isn't any. When people are on platforms no more utilt into jab resets :/ kind of stupid how they took this out when they fixed jab and laser locks.