Path of Radiance: Ike Guide and Strategy Discussion

[jamlosingthegame]

Nair has been our past for a while now, even in Brawl.

 

[Deathcarter]

Very good work san. A lot of stuff I didn't know about.

 

[Kevbot34]

Dtilt is really fast. It's weird. Is that his best tilt now? Filth looks almost the same, and I almost never see any utilt to judge it.

 

[Mario766]

Utilt is fast and kills early with the sweetspot, it's good for a finisher and in some links, dtilt is gonna be your main tool for poking on the ground and swat at people.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Does anyone find the Ike ditto matchup to be really awkward? I never do random spacing nairs/bairs and whatnot against any other character. I have my own method of approach, but I feel Ike vs. Ike is playing an entirely different character altogether.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

+ will always =

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

It feels awkward as hell transitioning back to fighting normal characters.

 

[san.]

It was like that in Brawl, too. Hopefully custom move preferences will spice things up, or make things really annoying with us gimping each other with eruption 2.

Edit: Added paragraph:

Shielding in general is a little different this time around from Brawl. You're required to stay in your shield a few frames longer before releasing, however, shield dropping seems faster this time around. This means that it's safer to turtle up in your shield since you can drop it and retaliate with jab, dtilt, or any other grounded attack quickly. I recommend utilizing both grounded and aerial options out of shield, especially since attacks beat out dash grabs 100% of the time now.

 

[CommanderVimes]

1. So saying that our go-to early kill move is uSmash, and I'm just learning about things like OoS, should I make it part of my game to USmash laggy moves on shield, or is there a better option OoS?

2. Since jab doesn't work at low percents apparently,is dTilt the move I am throwing out most often as a poke? I guess nAirs are more common. Should I still do it at close spacing or only taking full advantage of range?

3. What goes farther, roll cancel grab or dash grab?

 

[Mario766]

Dtilt is our best ground poke move, good range and low end lag, I feel like Jab is more match-up specific because you get confirmed hits sometimes and sometimes not. Nair is still Ike's best approach tool IMO, however unspaced Nair is very punishable.

I think they both go about the same distance, though I only can use my own judgement.

 

[gsninja]

Unspaced NAirs are super easy to punish, properly spaced ones have just enough range for relative safety.

 

[VirusDigimon]

Dtilt is really fast. It's weird. Is that his best tilt now? Filth looks almost the same, and I almost never see any utilt to judge it.

Definitely Dtilt, it's fast with fair range.

From Brawl, Ftilt feels too slow and seems shorter. It also doesn't seem to be that great at killing, except at really high percents(even near the edge, around 120%+). Though, it's still usable on occasions like hitting behind or people a tad farther than Dtilt.

I haven't used Utilt too much, but it's definitely an option for kill moves. Much more reliable than Ftilt as far as getting kills, but it's more punishable.

 

[doom dragon 105]

I feel the dtilt is useful, but idk if it is just the competition I'm playing.

Also does backwards nair -->bair still work? It sometimes doesn't for me.

 

[TL?]

What do you guys think about eruption for edgeguarding? I'm starting to feel like dtilt is the better option in a lot of situations. It has pretty far reach as well and will catch just about anything that doesn't sweetspot. The key here is that eruption sends people up so your opponent is now above you rather than off to the side. With dtilt, people are pushed off the stage again which can sometimes setup a dair spike, a walk off fair, or more dtilts. I guess the armor of eruption makes it better against certain recoveries like shulk perhaps since his upb has crazy range but doesn't sweetspot. What do you guys think about his edge guard options?

 

[Yoh]

I also like using d-tilt a lot, it is fairly easy to hit if anything does not sweetspot and brings the opponent in a bad situation, walkoff fair for example.
In some MUs, I really like charge and edgeguard with Eruption, like Captain Falcon, DK or Bowser because it is easy to hit with and they can die really early depending on your rage and charge, in other matchups I prefer going for d Tilt or just wait onstage and react on what they are doing since Ike can cover a lot of space with moves like up smash or nair, to punish rolls or jumps from the ledge , for example Marth since his recovery seems ver difficult to interrupt.
Counter can also be really good against some recoveris like Shulks.

 

[Mario766]

Using Eruption's armor is kinda hard, you need to get 75 percent through the charge which requires a really good hit to set-up. The best way to edge guard is gonna be either going off-stage or space out a d-tilt. Eruption is more of a match-up idea because it works really well against some recoveries but some are almost if not impossible to hit unless they don't sweet spot.

 

[san.]

Another issue is when they grab the edge. How do you avoid eruption once you grab the edge and Ike is at 75% charge? You have to hope the Ike player severely mistimes, since releasing from the edge, jumping, rolling, standard getup, and attacking are all punishable because of its huge hitbox and you lose invincibility quickly. The timing issue goes away when it's Eruption 2 or 3.

 

[Xuan Wu]

Also does backwards nair -->bair still work? It sometimes doesn't for me.

This is probably one of my favorite approach options and follow-ups in SSBB. The fact that N-air no longer auto-cancels could be the reason it is not as effective.

^-^

 

[san.]

Brawl Nair:

Hit on: 15-32
IASA (Air): 76
IASA (Landing): 13
Auto-cancel: 1-7, 67-75

Shield Stun: 3
Shield Hitlag: 8
ADVANTAGE: -9 (minus additional Airtime frames)

Brawl Nair never autocancelled the way you thought, it just had low lag and you could land the frame you hit your opponent. Nair in this game surprisingly has the same damage, but there's 3 more frames of lag (perhaps a few more frames of shield stun, not sure) while his other aerials have 1-3 frames less landing lag.

 

[CommanderVimes]

Another issue is when they grab the edge. How do you avoid eruption once you grab the edge and Ike is at 75% charge? You have to hope the Ike player severely mistimes, since releasing from the edge, jumping, rolling, standard getup, and attacking are all punishable because of its huge hitbox and you lose invincibility quickly. The timing issue goes away when it's Eruption 2 or 3.

So when doing Eruption when it's guaranteed they have to grab ledge or fail to reach, it is better to hold Eruption and react to their ledge recovery rather than try to hit them JUST before they touch the ledge?

 

[Madolche ♦ Procione]

So one thing that was touched on in the OP that I want to ask more about: jab cancelling.
It played a big part for me in Brawl and from what the OP said it's still possible, but harder. I got to try a bit of smash 4 earlier, and wasn't able to do it at all in the matches I played. Could I get some info on the timing? I'll have my own copy soon, but I'm curious to see how it has changed.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Any tips for fighting Rosalina, especially on Battlefield? Her juggles make her nigh invincible and she can gimp you. Most of all, her dash speed is really fast, so while she's jugging you, she can track you on landing on platforms, AND she can seek you out if you attempt to go to the base of the stage and just dash attack you or grab you.. It's best to go to the edge if you can maneuver there.

 

[san.]

So when doing Eruption when it's guaranteed they have to grab ledge or fail to reach, it is better to hold Eruption and react to their ledge recovery rather than try to hit them JUST before they touch the ledge?

It depends on how the opponent is conditioned and against which character. I think both are equally valid.

So one thing that was touched on in the OP that I want to ask more about: jab cancelling.
It played a big part for me in Brawl and from what the OP said it's still possible, but harder. I got to try a bit of smash 4 earlier, and wasn't able to do it at all in the matches I played. Could I get some info on the timing? I'll have my own copy soon, but I'm curious to see how it has changed.

You can't buffer the crouch for jab cancelling, but you can still perform it. Sadly, there's less stun on jabs, so you're rarely going to cancel it back into another jab. Jab->dtilt is common and jab against an airborne opponent may lead to a utilt.

Any tips for fighting Rosalina, especially on Battlefield? Her juggles make her nigh invincible and she can gimp you. Most of all, her dash speed is really fast, so while she's jugging you, she can track you on landing on platforms, AND she can seek you out if you attempt to go to the base of the stage and just dash attack you or grab you.. It's best to go to the edge if you can maneuver there.

Haven't really fought a good one yet, what happens when you focus on killing Luma? Even if you get punished a bit, at least you'll survive against solo Rosalina.

 

[Madolche ♦ Procione]

You can't buffer the crouch for jab cancelling, but you can still perform it. Sadly, there's less stun on jabs, so you're rarely going to cancel it back into another jab. Jab->dtilt is common and jab against an airborne opponent may lead to a utilt.

Thanks for the info, man. c:
Ah, that's a little saddening. I'm gonna miss those long jab strings on heavy characters...
What about jab to grab? Not a thing anymore?

 

[san.]

If you're close enough. Jab1 tends to knock them too far back most of the time. Standing grabs seem to have better vertical reach than horizontal in this game. Easy to get a grab from a low % nair ~10%, though.

 

[Madolche ♦ Procione]

That's... interesting.
Guess I just gotta adjust to the new mechanics. Should be a fun learning experience.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

Nair > bair actually still works. The problem is that nair doesn't go as far back (at least it feels like it) to easily set up when you hit facing away. Otherwise, it's still the same thing when hitting facing the opponent, just requires the turnaround before you bair. It's still a bit tricky for me to do on the 3DS.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

The best place to go for challenges online is the Ladder on Nintendodojo (formerly All is Brawl). It's the single biggest concentration of online competitors. It makes everyone I've faced over the last two weeks look weak in comparison.

That said, Bowser Jr. is a nightmare. He punishes EVERYTHING with Side B.

 

[san.]

I'm probably going to mostly just do training mode. I can't really take the 3DS seriously for competition. Great fun, though.

 

[VirusDigimon]

Another issue is when they grab the edge. How do you avoid eruption once you grab the edge and Ike is at 75% charge? You have to hope the Ike player severely mistimes, since releasing from the edge, jumping, rolling, standard getup, and attacking are all punishable because of its huge hitbox and you lose invincibility quickly. The timing issue goes away when it's Eruption 2 or 3.

So when they grab the ledge and you're in the middle of Eruption, should you unleash as soon as you see any kind of movement?

 

[san.]

If he's likely to ledge release, yes, which is probably going to be the most common action. Ledge invincibility increases for time spent in the air and decreases the higher your percent. I still recommend using it for both before grabbing the edge and as a ledge trap. It's well worth the risk if it's a character susceptible to it. It's not very useful against characters who can teleport or have invincibility frames + quick ledge snapping.

 

[CommanderVimes]

I'm still doing For Glory for my training purposes. Since I only win about as many matches as I lose, on a good day, it's not like I need to go find super competition at this point in my career >_>

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

So here's what I've noticed about Sheik's game. I played Ailuro from All is Brawl and definitely got lucky twice.

>Shieldgrabs a lot
>Gets in close to Ftilt, short hop fair, then double-jump fair again. Trying to knock you off the edge so she can gimp you effectively
>Avoids your nair, punishes with Bair
>Waits. A lot. I didn't bother using Counter once.
>Hops. A lot. Basically, baiting your fair/nair, jumps over you, rolls behind you, and grabs or uses another attack
>Bouncing Fish comes out faster than you think. Even when you're swinging FTilt/FSmash, you're already caught.
>Teleport hits on the vanish and reappearance. Plus it blows you away with wind and is hard to punish, though sparsely did this player use it to get back on stage from above.

Let me say this. A defensive Sheik is the most dangerous thing to deal with. It's one thing to deal with pure rushdown (Ftilt, fair fair fair, dash shieldgrab, etc.), but when they start blocking and punishing your every move...

What happened was that I footstooled him on Match 3 for a 0% death. I had about 10% damage. In less than 1 minute, I was already at 100% damage and had just gotten her to about 69%. I get KO'd. I come back, and I'm racked up to 129% while she's at 123%, both on our last stock. It was about to hit time - with me losing - and I just pulled out a random nair while she tried Uair and it was enough to finish her off. The other kill I had was USmash when she rolled. I don't recommend this mid-stage since she has so much range to roll around in and can easily punish you with dash attack or dash grab.

If they play defense, keeping them at bay with nair is your best option. I don't even think I had an option to grab her with, either. But the last thing I noticed is that, if you do keep your distance and send them offstage, they're not as tough while recovering. Retreating fair/nair, especially well-timed against Bouncing Fish, could save you. They always wait till getting below the stage to recover. My best source of damage was punishing aerials from afar, which is fairly hard to do given the speed, range, and knockback of her own fair.

 

[Yoh]

up Smash and nair actually have a weak hit, up smash when you hit with the tip of the sword behind Ike which only deals 10% and has weak knockback and nair only does 6% when you hit with the last frames while the sword is behind Ike.
Happened to me a few times that my up Smash didn´t kill so I tested it in training mode.

But its actually really hard to hit with this stupid weak hit.

Another thing I found out is never use a counter when you get released from the ledge when someone else grabs it, you keep your momentum and Ike gets pushed really far offstage while countering and dies.

 

[VirusDigimon]

Has anyone else been using Eruption in midair?

Recently, I've been using it every so often when "it feels right". Sometimes, it just calls out to me, haha. But it's actually very effective. Just don't ever spam it, use it rarely, but don't forget about it. My hit ratio so far is probably 80%ish with it.

Use it when they're trying to return to the stage in the right circumstances. I'm not sure if it heavily throws people off, but it connects plenty of times. Uncharged, it kills surprisingly early(especially since you're using it in the air).

I might start saving replays when I use it because I know it sounds like there are always better options in the air, but again, each time I use it, I just felt like "this will work great" and it does.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

How often do you guys use fastfall? Like, after attacks (nair/fair/bair) and whatnot to reduce landing lag?

 

[Xuan Wu]

I found another Ike vs. Shulk video. ^-^

The match-up, in my opinion, looks like it ranges from about neutral to fairly hard, especially when against a Shulk that makes full use of his arts. Based on the first match, we can see Shulk's recovery is overall worse than Ike's since he lacks a move that allows him to recover horizontally. Keep him a good horizontal distance away from the stage and he is done for.

 

[san.]

How often do you guys use fastfall? Like, after attacks (nair/fair/bair) and whatnot to reduce landing lag?

I fastfall as much as I can. You can't double jump after a full hop aerial anymore, so it's best to get to the ground as soon as you can, with a slight delay for fair and dair.

I found another Ike vs. Shulk video. ^-^

The match-up, in my opinion, looks like it ranges from about neutral to fairly hard, especially when against a Shulk that makes full use of his arts. Based on the first match, we can see Shulk's recovery is overall worse than Ike's since he lacks a move that allows him to recover horizontally. Keep him a good horizontal distance away from the stage and he is done for.

Nice video, player knew what he was doing there.

I really feel that Ike is going to go close to even against many of the other close ranged fighters. I don't feel like Ike is really walled out that much against them when spacing well. Custom Ike on the other hand is an entirely different story against some characters. Eruption 2 gets more ridiculous the more I use it, and you can find a good QD against any character. Aether 3 is alright, but it's incredibly spammy and good for trolling. I think I like counter1's utility, but a free KO from countering a jab or something with counter2 is too good to pass up despite its situational use.

 

[DaBeast]

How exactly can you jab cancel with Ike? I'm assuming it's not as easy as before but I would like to cancel it before jab 3 gets shielded. Also does Ike has any new AT's like forward roll cancelled grab?

 

[jamlosingthegame]

Speaking of Ike vs. Shulk, here's Ryo repping Ike in the first two games of this set.
http://youtu.be/OrUZLFQoNe8