Paper Mario Flips the Switch! -- Paper Mario Support Thread

[Arthur97]

On the other hand, were people saying this about "explorer" 3D Mario during the transition to "linear" 3D Mario until Odyssey?

Hence the for the time being part. It could come back, but not at least for however long it would take to make a new game. Even if it came back in some form, it probably won't be identical.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well I looked into the spoilers for Origami King.

Plot is better than I expected.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Well I looked into the spoilers for Origami King.

Plot is better than I expected.

Does it have actual stakes and dramatic moments, or is it good in the sense that the comedy is top-notch?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Does it have actual stakes and dramatic moments, or is it good in the sense that the comedy is top-notch?

Not as good drama as TTYD but its effective.

Not as funny as Color Splash but still funny.

The writing seems well balanced.

Spoiler: Final Boss Spoilers

One moment I liked was when Bowser was comforting Olivia and telling her not to feel scared.

He said something along the lines of...

"Hey, I'm Bowser, I break rocks and breathe fire. On top of that I raise a "high energy" kid with access to a flying car and a whole army. If I'm not scared, you shouldn't be."

It's a funny and heartwarming line. I paraphrased it, but I really dig it.

 

[Mamboo07]

Hehe, inanimate objects go brr.

Spoiler

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/features/interviews/paper-mario-origami-king/

 

[meleebrawler]

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/features/interviews/paper-mario-origami-king/

That statement about not modifying Mario-series characters is a sticking point for many. But while I do agree that it's arbitrary, acting like this makes it impossible to make memorable characters regardless is weird. I especially like how they can use the same characters and take them into different directions, such as the frenemy Bowser that was briefly touched upon at the end of Color Splash and Odyssey and Kamek bringing back his babysitter angle after his evil trolling.

Other people instead freaking out that casual and Metroid were uttered in the same sentence.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I just wish we got more creative Toad names again, rather than just Toad, but with an honorary title or spelled slightly differently.

Also...did the fans completely forget that Tanabe has almost no involvement with Metroid Prime 4? Especially after they decided to call back on Retro Studios again when the home developers apparently weren't efficient.

Fans these days just don't have the sense to wait instead of jumping to conclusions (even if current PM games can feel weaker overall).

Spoiler

 

[dimensionsword64]

I really don't understand how he thinks the story in Super Paper Mario was a bad thing. Without the story, it's just a fun, quirky platformer that's ultimately a tad bit forgettable. The story is the thing that made it such a wonderful, touching experience. Yeah, having such a grand, tragic story made it feel a little bit less like a Mario game, but did anyone really complain about that? It seems to me that Mario games are best when they're willing to push the boundaries and go in new directions.

 

[meleebrawler]

I really don't understand how he thinks the story in Super Paper Mario was a bad thing. Without the story, it's just a fun, quirky platformer that's ultimately a tad bit forgettable. The story is the thing that made it such a wonderful, touching experience. Yeah, having such a grand, tragic story made it feel a little bit less like a Mario game, but did anyone really complain about that? It seems to me that Mario games are best when they're willing to push the boundaries and go in new directions.

Unless those boundaries are battle systems and art styles, apprently *drum riff*.

No but seriously, there is a point in that for Super, Mario and his friends are just kind of... there in the plot, being strung along by destiny, with the real main characters being Tippi and Count Bleck. Which is fine and all, but... you could also replace the Mario gang and Bowser's minions with other members and that wouldn't really affect how the story goes. It's not like the other games where these characters were driven by their recognizable motivations. Put simply, you are the partner in Super, reduced to merely commenting on goings-on as soon as your introductory arc is done. And as I said before, multiversal destruction is kind of hard to top in scale, and Paper Mario doesn't have the benefit of other RPGs just fully resetting every game with a new setting and cast.

Then again, isn't the dynamic between Olivia and King Olly pretty similar to Tippi and Count Bleck, minus the amnesia build-up?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I really don't understand how he thinks the story in Super Paper Mario was a bad thing. Without the story, it's just a fun, quirky platformer that's ultimately a tad bit forgettable. The story is the thing that made it such a wonderful, touching experience. Yeah, having such a grand, tragic story made it feel a little bit less like a Mario game, but did anyone really complain about that? It seems to me that Mario games are best when they're willing to push the boundaries and go in new directions.

These days, it feels like only Koizumi's games and some of the character-based spin-off games do that, to some degree. The comfort zone is strong.

Granted, Odyssey was a fancier version of the "rescue Peach" formula with just enough done to change it up, but 3D World was a neat change of pace.

Also, at least Super Paper Mario provided enough challenge. Origami King looks like it's aimed towards little kids that might want to play easier games. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure if I'd get much out of this one.

Edit: On a related note, PushDustin reposted an Iwata Asks covering the topic: https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1283936825552146433

 

[meleebrawler]

These days, it feels like only Koizumi's games and some of the character-based spin-off games do that, to some degree. The comfort zone is strong.

Granted, Odyssey was a fancier version of the "rescue Peach" formula with just enough done to change it up, but 3D World was a neat change of pace.

Also, at least Super Paper Mario provided enough challenge. Origami King looks like it's aimed towards little kids that might want to play easier games. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure if I'd get much out of this one.

Edit: On a related note, PushDustin reposted an Iwata Asks covering the topic: https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1283936825552146433

Kirby games are pretty easy for the average player, but you don't seem to have a problem with making that your profile theme, do you?

More to the point, there is difficulty in Origami King, it just comes in the form of puzzles instead of combat and numbers. Luigi's Mansion 3 is pretty similar in that regard. If you can't quickly line up enemies correctly later in the game where the formations get more complex and refrain from buying more time, you can end up taking a lot of damage. And you just know there's going to be some person challenging themselves to play through using only basic boot and hammer attacks, which won't be enough to avoid all damage even if you're good at puzzling later in the game.

This is yet another game that gives you tools and options to make the game as easy or as hard as you want it to be, without a binary easy/hard switch.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Kirby games are pretty easy for the average player, but you don't seem to have a problem with making that your profile theme, do you?

More to the point, there is difficulty in Origami King, it just comes in the form of puzzles instead of combat and numbers. Luigi's Mansion 3 is pretty similar in that regard. If you can't quickly line up enemies correctly later in the game where the formations get more complex and refrain from buying more time, you can end up taking a lot of damage. And you just know there's going to be some person challenging themselves to play through using only basic boot and hammer attacks, which won't be enough to avoid all damage even if you're good at puzzling later in the game.

Yeah, but at least they usually have a harder extra mode or something else like that for Kirby veterans (e.g. True Arena). I guess I'll wait for the general consensus on this one.

All debates over whether the game is any good aside, I've accidentally heard of a specific major plot point that's...pretty eye-opening.

Spoiler

Regarding a specific character. Or, I should say, specific subset of characters...

It actually makes you wonder about the staff's stance on things.

Also, I'm surprised to hear that Bobby managed to get fans, since I initially thought it'd be tough for him to live up to Bombette and Cpt. Bobbery.

Edit: Canadian Guy Eh is streaming the game soon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8OLUBZiYAQ

 

[Luxent]

I saw this on Reddit today. Apparently its from the new paper mario game. Are those smash envelopes? I wonder if these are hints to Paper Mario being in smash... one can dream!

Spoiler

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Arlo likes Origami King.

I'm pleasantly surprised.

 

[meleebrawler]

I saw this on Reddit today. Apparently its from the new paper mario game. Are those smash envelopes? I wonder if these are hints to Paper Mario being in smash... one can dream!

Spoiler

Spoiler

A trailer with these Toad letters would be the cruelest prank ever.

Well, Metroid isn't the only Nintendo franchise getting referenced here:

Spoiler

You'll make it to Kakariko Village one of these days, Toad.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Happy 16th Birthday to TTYD!

 

[Guybrush20X6]

While it's no match for any of the original Trilogy, PM: TOK is a vast, vast, vast improvement over the last two games and is fun in it's own right.

Battles still don't have much point but they're fun and quick and, most importantly, aren't all based around stupid single use attacks.
Partners may not do much in battle but they help the stories and character beats a great deal, which in turn let's Olivia get more development than Kersti and Huey.
The different worlds have more unique themes going for them and don't directly ape New Super Mario Bros level themes for the most part.
And more Toads have unique designs to them and even if they don't have names, can still be identified by what thing they were folded into.

Though most importantly, I actually want to keep playing this game. Sticker Star lost me after I beat the first boss the hard way and the game called me a dumb-dumb for it and Color Splash's clunky battle system wore me down before I even got that far.

 

[meleebrawler]

While it's no match for any of the original Trilogy, PM: TOK is a vast, vast, vast improvement over the last two games and is fun in it's own right.

Battles still don't have much point but they're fun and quick and, most importantly, aren't all based around stupid single use attacks.
Partners may not do much in battle but they help the stories and character beats a great deal, which in turn let's Olivia get more development than Kersti and Huey.
The different worlds have more unique themes going for them and don't directly ape New Super Mario Bros level themes for the most part.
And more Toads have unique designs to them and even if they don't have names, can still be identified by what thing they were folded into.

Though most importantly, I actually want to keep playing this game. Sticker Star lost me after I beat the first boss the hard way and the game called me a dumb-dumb for it and Color Splash's clunky battle system wore me down before I even got that far.

I can assure you, you will not be able to afford higher-end accessories if you do not regularly battle or do well in them. Let alone if you want to purchase those over 10000-coin trophies. Your only real alternative to getting coins is grinding the long Eddy River minigame, since field coins are a mostly finite resource.

 

[dimensionsword64]

I personally loved Origami King. It certainly had its faults, and there were lots of things that I wish were better, but it was overall an absolute delight to play. The environments were gorgeous, the writing was sharp and witty (sometimes even being laugh-out-loud funny), the characters were very engaging (Bobby and Olivia in particular were standouts), and more often than not, the battles were enjoyable. Even the plot, a heavily criticized aspect of newer Paper Mario games, had some really great moments that stuck with me. I found myself unable to put the game down, as I was constantly excited for whatever it would throw at me next, and even though the battles did sometimes end up feeling a little monotonous, it was never so bad as to actually affect my enjoyment.

If there's a Paper Mario spirit event, it should be happening relatively soon, right? Though I'm obviously hoping for Paper Mario to make it into Smash, I would still be pleased to see Origami King receiving some love with a spirit event.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

While quick partner assists aren't quite the most desirable thing, I think it would work pretty well in the context of Paper Mario's moveset in Smash. Assuming that Sakurai is allowed to, he can reference the partners from various game in the series this way.

While it's no match for any of the original Trilogy, PM: TOK is a vast, vast, vast improvement over the last two games and is fun in it's own right.

Battles still don't have much point but they're fun and quick and, most importantly, aren't all based around stupid single use attacks.
Partners may not do much in battle but they help the stories and character beats a great deal, which in turn let's Olivia get more development than Kersti and Huey.
The different worlds have more unique themes going for them and don't directly ape New Super Mario Bros level themes for the most part.
And more Toads have unique designs to them and even if they don't have names, can still be identified by what thing they were folded into.

Though most importantly, I actually want to keep playing this game. Sticker Star lost me after I beat the first boss the hard way and the game called me a dumb-dumb for it and Color Splash's clunky battle system wore me down before I even got that far.

Well, that's good to know.

Also, from what I've seen the Paper Macho and boss battles are consistently fun compared to the regular ones (moreso the latter seeing how those are like solving a Rubik's cube).

If there's a Paper Mario spirit event, it should be happening relatively soon, right? Though I'm obviously hoping for Paper Mario to make it into Smash, I would still be pleased to see Origami King receiving some love with a spirit event.

I honestly have no clue. Spirit event timing often has no rhyme or reason in regards to when they happen, and when the timing is logical, it's pretty rare (mostly limited to the Square-Enix events).

My estimate is sometime between now and the end of December 2021.

 

[Cosmic77]

The good news is that most Spirits for new games are released within two weeks of the release, so if Origami King doesn't get anything this Tuesday, the worst part is over.

Of course, we're far from in the clear. There's nothing stopping them from pulling a Peachette or a Ring Fit, but there's also a chance they go the SMM2 or LM3 route and add nothing at all.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

We'll see what Tuesday brings.

If there are spirits I'm thinking they'll be 1000 Fold Paper Mario, Olivia and Olly or Origami Peach.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

So if SMRPG 2 aka the Paper Mario beta get's dumped, what are you guys hoping to see? I'm hoping to see Geno and Mallow sprites.

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, but at least they usually have a harder extra mode or something else like that for Kirby veterans (e.g. True Arena). I guess I'll wait for the general consensus on this one.

All debates over whether the game is any good aside, I've accidentally heard of a specific major plot point that's...pretty eye-opening.

Spoiler

Regarding a specific character. Or, I should say, specific subset of characters...

It actually makes you wonder about the staff's stance on things.

Also, I'm surprised to hear that Bobby managed to get fans, since I initially thought it'd be tough for him to live up to Bombette and Cpt. Bobbery.

Edit: Canadian Guy Eh is streaming the game soon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8OLUBZiYAQ

I'm honestly not sure if they're poking fun at the fans, whoever put these restrictions on them (probably Miyamoto), or both.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm honestly not sure if they're poking fun at the fans, whoever put these restrictions on them (probably Miyamoto), or both.

Probably both but in good fun.

It's probably meant like a playful jab and nothing more. Paper Mario loves to satirize itself.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Probably both but in good fun.

It's probably meant like a playful jab and nothing more. Paper Mario loves to satirize itself.

Well, considering that they've made fun of Breath of the Wild at the same time...

 

[Guybrush20X6]

One question for anyone who can read Japanese. How is the Japanese side of the net reacting to that interview? You know the one.

I'm curious to know if the feelings of "Dude, WTF?" are universal.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

It seems that Tetris 99 will be getting a Maximus Cup themed after the 2-D mustachioed one.

https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...er_mario_theme_in_tetris_99s_next_maximus_cup

One question for anyone who can read Japanese. How is the Japanese side of the net reacting to that interview. You know the one.

I'm curious to know if the feelings of "Dude, WTF?" are universal.

It wouldn't hurt to ask Venus of the Desert Bloom , I think.

 

[Arthur97]

One question for anyone who can read Japanese. How is the Japanese side of the net reacting to that interview? You know the one.

I'm curious to know if the feelings of "Dude, WTF?" are universal.

Well, most of what we'd have to go off of would probably be Twitter, and let's be honest, probably not the best metric. Twitter comments give themselves to outrage and people have noted that it doesn't exactly bring out the best in people.

But into the EXP issue people have complained about. It got me thinking, and EXP can be difficult to balance. The worst offender being a necessity to grind, however there is also the idea of how many enemies are you expected to fight? All of them? Most of them? Even then, in Paper Mario in particular, level ups were not the greatest thing. You only got to improve one stat per level up, and it was never a direct attack boost. It also seems to be a tendency of younger players to pile on the HP. While that may work just fine in Mario RPG and Mario & Luigi where other stats go up anyway, in Paper Mario that can be detrimental in particular. And, honestly, I'm not the biggest fan of how level ups worked in the first two anyway. Sure, the small numbers may be delightfully simple, but I honestly didn't always care for the choice though it got better one I just decided to do them in order even if that isn't optimal. Honestly, of the three Mario RPG types, they may have been the least important in Paper Mario anyway (perhaps better in SPM) given how gradual the increase could be outside of badges.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Well, most of what we'd have to go off of would probably be Twitter, and let's be honest, probably not the best metric. Twitter comments give themselves to outrage and people have noted that it doesn't exactly bring out the best in people.

But into the EXP issue people have complained about. It got me thinking, and EXP can be difficult to balance. The worst offender being a necessity to grind, however there is also the idea of how many enemies are you expected to fight? All of them? Most of them? Even then, in Paper Mario in particular, level ups were not the greatest thing. You only got to improve one stat per level up, and it was never a direct attack boost. It also seems to be a tendency of younger players to pile on the HP. While that may work just fine in Mario RPG and Mario & Luigi where other stats go up anyway, in Paper Mario that can be detrimental in particular. And, honestly, I'm not the biggest fan of how level ups worked in the first two anyway. Sure, the small numbers may be delightfully simple, but I honestly didn't always care for the choice though it got better one I just decided to do them in order even if that isn't optimal. Honestly, of the three Mario RPG types, they may have been the least important in Paper Mario anyway (perhaps better in SPM) given how gradual the increase could be outside of badges.

Here's a solution; why not simply make future games action adventures ala Zelda? As it is, there almost isn't much of a point to win coins in regular battles when you get them anywhere else anyway, so might as well just have battles in the field instead (especially since Paper Machos are usually fought outside of turn-based battles anyway). Origami King is already open-ended in structure, so they could naturally expand upon the action adventure aspects.

 

[Arthur97]

Here's a solution; why not simply make future games action adventures ala Zelda? As it is, there almost isn't much of a point to win coins in regular battles when you get them anywhere else anyway, so might as well just have battles in the field instead (especially since Paper Machos are usually fought outside of turn-based battles anyway). Origami King is already open-ended in structure, so they could naturally expand upon the action adventure aspects.

Uh, yeah, you try buying everything with strictly over world coins.

I suppose that is one way you could go, but at that point, it's essentially SPM again, isn't it? Mind you, not that I'd be terribly disappointed with that. Though, maybe this time put a bit more focus on Mario instead of, as someone put it, having Mario be the partner. Which, thinking on it, yeah, while the plot was strong, it was more about Tippi and Count Bleck with Mario and the gang being the muscle.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm about halfway through Origami King (just found the yellow streamer).

It's an improvement over Color Splash, which was a HUGE improvement over Sticker Star. Not entirely sold on the battle system, but I do feel like it's less braindead than the previous two where the only real challenge was figuring out which specific card you needed for boss battles, something that lost its mystery after the first playthrough.

Sadly, the fanbase is repeating the same mistake it made with CS. The game is more similar to Sticker Star than TTYD, so after watching/playing the game for less than an hour, they determine it sucks. If those people kept playing CS or OG, I feel like they might've actually enjoyed the game. Maybe not as much as TTYD, but it'd still be something that would make them intrested in future games.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I'm about halfway through Origami King (just found the yellow streamer).

It's an improvement over Color Splash, which was a HUGE improvement over Sticker Star. Not entirely sold on the battle system, but I do feel like it's less braindead than the previous two where the only real challenge was figuring out which specific card you needed for boss battles, something that lost its mystery after the first playthrough.

Sadly, the fanbase is repeating the same mistake it made with CS. The game is more similar to Sticker Star than TTYD, so after watching/playing the game for less than an hour, they determine it sucks. If those people kept playing CS or OG, I feel like they might've actually enjoyed the game. Maybe not as much as TTYD, but it'd still be something that would make them intrested in future games.

Seeing how the game got enough sales in its first week to temporarily beat New Horizons, it'll do well with younger players regardless of what the older ones think. I guess the prominent marketing seems to have helped it.

https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...ght_fall_as_animal_crossing_returns_to_second

 

[Arthur97]

I'm about halfway through Origami King (just found the yellow streamer).

It's an improvement over Color Splash, which was a HUGE improvement over Sticker Star. Not entirely sold on the battle system, but I do feel like it's less braindead than the previous two where the only real challenge was figuring out which specific card you needed for boss battles, something that lost its mystery after the first playthrough.

Sadly, the fanbase is repeating the same mistake it made with CS. The game is more similar to Sticker Star than TTYD, so after watching/playing the game for less than an hour, they determine it sucks. If those people kept playing CS or OG, I feel like they might've actually enjoyed the game. Maybe not as much as TTYD, but it'd still be something that would make them intrested in future games.

Some of the puzzles get rather complex. There is at least one set up I've yet to figure out. And, hey, I think it's the first Paper Mario to actually let you refight bosses, so that's cool. It even denies you a 1-up and accessories so it's probably harder too. However, there are two things that are really keeping me from 100 percenting it, and those are minigames. Could use a start over option on at least one of those.

Spoiler: Spoilers

That said, Olly was a pretty weak villain. His motivation was ludicrous and the final boss was kind of underwhelming. That said, I did think the quick time event was actually kind of cool looking at least. The Scissors fight was probably the coolest if just because the first time I broke the cover the very first time (didn't think the 1,000 fold arms would brake it) and was jumping over the attacks. Did get hit at the end...but I had a 1-Up so Mario just dusted himself off. On the refight though, I did what I was supposed to and it was pretty easy.

 

[meleebrawler]

Uh, yeah, you try buying everything with strictly over world coins.

I suppose that is one way you could go, but at that point, it's essentially SPM again, isn't it? Mind you, not that I'd be terribly disappointed with that. Though, maybe this time put a bit more focus on Mario instead of, as someone put it, having Mario be the partner. Which, thinking on it, yeah, while the plot was strong, it was more about Tippi and Count Bleck with Mario and the gang being the muscle.

If you're not interested in any side content whatsoever, maybe you could eke by with only what you get from the overworld. Higher end accessories would probably still be beyond your reach though. Not so different from other RPGs where you don't plan on going after bonus content that's usually harder than the main campaign, or buying high-end gear that usually provides a bigger difference in stats than most level-ups.

And hey, the partners in older games didn't get any benefit whatsoever from battling, didn't they? When you really get down to it, the bulk of your more significant upgrades in them come from exploring and scripted events, not too unlike what we have today. Upgrading your BP wouldn't mean much if you didn't find or buy badges to take advantage of it.

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, EXP was the least important in Paper Mario...well, In M&L you could technically dodge almost every attack, but you'd still want that attack up at the very least. Yeah, yeah, incentive to fight, but even with EXP it did not make battles immune to fatigue, like on one of the backtracking treks of TTYD, but now, if you get tired of fighting, you can just not fight without the thought of "but EXP!"

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

So, before this debate keeps going around in circles, let's put it simply: should Paper Mario remain an RPG or become an action adventure series like Zelda?

Edit: I'll just leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HRkj6JW22U

 

[Arthur97]

Should it? Very hard to answer. Whether you want it to or not, well, that's up to you. That would leave a notable lack of Mario RPGs (though maybe Miyamoto would like that) unless they hand M&L off to someone else. Though, so long as their hands are being tied, it perhaps they should hold off on bringing it back. A new dev could be good for the latter though. Maybe it's me, but Dream Team left me so...unimpressed that I didn't even bother with Paper Jam.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Should it? Very hard to answer. Whether you want it to or not, well, that's up to you. That would leave a notable lack of Mario RPGs (though maybe Miyamoto would like that) unless they hand M&L off to someone else. Though, so long as their hands are being tied, it perhaps they should hold off on bringing it back. A new dev could be good for the latter though. Maybe it's me, but Dream Team left me so...unimpressed that I didn't even bother with Paper Jam.

It's not you, the latter two titles are certainly divisive, especially with Paper Mario's half of Paper Jam being affected by Miyamoto's guidelines. Regardless whether those entries were any good, AlphaDream were showing clear signs of a burnout.

But yeah, I agree that it would be best to wait until fresh blood comes in before trying to bring back M&L. As long as it's not Camelot, we still don't know what they're doing now that there aren't any Mario sports titles...