Paper Mario Flips the Switch! -- Paper Mario Support Thread

GoodGrief741

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So, before this debate keeps going around in circles, let's put it simply: should Paper Mario remain an RPG or become an action adventure series like Zelda?

Edit: I'll just leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HRkj6JW22U
In my opinion, going the action adventure route would mean staying with simpler stories and blander characters. It's not impossible that we get an action adventure with a complex plot, but traditionally that genre has been married with simpler storytelling (not just for PM and Nintendo but gaming as a whole), whereas RPGs tend to rely on interesting campaigns and settings. Plus, if Paper Mario isn't an RPG, then we don't have Mario RPGs anymore, whereas we're still going to get Mario action-adventurers otherwise. So it's an easy choice for me, let's go back to RPGs.
 

Arthur97

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It's not you, the latter two titles are certainly divisive, especially with Paper Mario's half of Paper Jam being affected by Miyamoto's guidelines. Regardless whether those entries were any good, AlphaDream were showing clear signs of a burnout.

But yeah, I agree that it would be best to wait until fresh blood comes in before trying to bring back M&L. As long as it's not Camelot, we still don't know what they're doing now that there aren't any Mario sports titles...
Honestly, as fun as BiS was, I still think it had a similar feel to Dream Team that wasn't that great, but I think it was DT's final boss that really did it. They started feeling kind of...samey? Ironic that one series became almost obsessed with experimentation while one seemed almost obsessed with the old even if they did add a few gimmicks here and there.

Though, expecting the Paper Mario side of Paper Jam to be chalked full of old partners and stuff does seem a bit of a stretch. Honestly, I think that's the one that would most deserve a Bowser final boss since you get two double teaming them. Just, uh, maybe in a different way than they handled it.

I don't hate new Paper Mario, but I am somewhat critical of Miyamoto, and not just because of his stance on Mario. His meddling with Star Fox and F-Zero are also...questionable.

New Super Sluggers?
In my opinion, going the action adventure route would mean staying with simpler stories and blander characters. It's not impossible that we get an action adventure with a complex plot, but traditionally that genre has been married with simpler storytelling (not just for PM and Nintendo but gaming as a whole), whereas RPGs tend to rely on interesting campaigns and settings. Plus, if Paper Mario isn't an RPG, then we don't have Mario RPGs anymore, whereas we're still going to get Mario action-adventurers otherwise. So it's an easy choice for me, let's go back to RPGs.
You say that, but SPM arguably had the deepest and/or darkest plot of all of them.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Honestly, as fun as BiS was, I still think it had a similar feel to Dream Team that wasn't that great, but I think it was DT's final boss that really did it. They started feeling kind of...samey? Ironic that one series became almost obsessed with experimentation while one seemed almost obsessed with the old even if they did add a few gimmicks here and there.

Though, expecting the Paper Mario side of Paper Jam to be chalked full of old partners and stuff does seem a bit of a stretch. Honestly, I think that's the one that would most deserve a Bowser final boss since you get two double teaming them. Just, uh, maybe in a different way than they handled it.

I don't hate new Paper Mario, but I am somewhat critical of Miyamoto, and not just because of his stance on Mario. His meddling with Star Fox and F-Zero are also...questionable.

New Super Sluggers?
Yeah, the guy doesn't seem to do anything new for old series anymore unless he can come up with a gimmick that doesn't entirely work (hence why F-Zero stopped, he couldn't come up with anything), while limiting characters and story to the tried and true. Also, we haven't heard anything for Pikmin 4 in ages.

Couldn't say, but Super Sluggers was from Bandai Namco, so I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.
 

GoodGrief741

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You say that, but SPM arguably had the deepest and/or darkest plot of all of them.
Fair enough, but that's an exception, not a rule, in terms of platformers. And also I'd say SPM is still firmly connected to its RPG roots.
 

Arthur97

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Fair enough, but that's an exception, not a rule, in terms of platformers. And also I'd say SPM is still firmly connected to its RPG roots.
Well, to keep it distinct from just, well, Mario, even an action adventure Paper Mario would likely retain some sort of RPG elements. Actually, perhaps they could refine the SPM formula. Maybe try for a less...MS Paint aesthetic, not make Bowser super OP, not shaft Luigi, etc.
 

Arthur97

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"Fresh" faces. Never mind the same guy has been working on Paper Mario since at least TTYD.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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In any case, those who want to do more interesting things with Mario are at odds with those who want it to remain familiar to the younger and/or casual fans.

And Miyamoto is in this weird middle ground of not wanting the cast or story to change/get variety, yet still encourage various gameplay gimmicks.
 
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Arthur97

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Well, nostalgia from the more...experimental GameCube days may also play a part. Not saying some variety would be a bad thing, but those who grew up then might be more entrenched in it. And in some cases have a hard time accepting anything different.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Well, nostalgia from the more...experimental GameCube days may also play a part. Not saying some variety would be a bad thing, but those who grew up then might be more entrenched in it. And in some cases have a hard time accepting anything different.
One thing for sure is, after a period of extensive Sunshine references in select games during said Gamecube period, New SMB's leanings toward older Mario platformers was seen as a fresh of breath air...that is until multiple NSMB sequels came up and some Mario games ended up doing a similar approach to the point that veteran fans got exhausted of it.

A balance between the two would maybe have helped things.
 

Arthur97

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One thing for sure is, after a period of extensive Sunshine references in select games during said Gamecube period, New SMB's leanings toward older Mario platformers was seen as a fresh of breath air...that is until multiple NSMB sequels came up and some Mario games ended up doing a similar approach to the point that veteran fans got exhausted of it.

A balance between the two would maybe have helped things.
Well, then you might be in luck. Now everything might start mirroring Odyssey. Though, oddly enough, Galaxy's influence doesn't seem as prevalent as Sunshine. Well, outside of Rosalina herself (when is Paper Rosalina going to show up anyway?) and the occasional Luma.. I'm not sure a Luma has ever even shown up in an RPG. Admittedly, Sunshine didn't have too much of an influence on M&L either...but Luigi's Mansion did with E. Gadd.
 

AinsOoalGown

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Count me as a supporter, been thinking about this, and it goes to my (now very big) list of options with tons of moveset potential
 

Arthur97

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Actually, one thing I still find to be odd, if they aren't allowed to modify existing designs (much), why don't they use Toadsworth anymore? He's pre-established, so he should be fine, right?
 

GoodGrief741

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Actually, one thing I still find to be odd, if they aren't allowed to modify existing designs (much), why don't they use Toadsworth anymore? He's pre-established, so he should be fine, right?
My guess is they don't consider most of the Sunshine additions to be part of the "core cast", only Bowser Jr. stuck around whereas Shadow Mario, E. Gadd, Toadsworth et al all faded into the background.

Methinks they like to take just one character from each game to make recurring, we've had Jr., Rosalina from Galaxy, and now apparently Pauline from her grand return in Odyssey. Not sure why though, doesn't appear to be any logic to it.
 

Arthur97

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My guess is they don't consider most of the Sunshine additions to be part of the "core cast", only Bowser Jr. stuck around whereas Shadow Mario, E. Gadd, Toadsworth et al all faded into the background.

Methinks they like to take just one character from each game to make recurring, we've had Jr., Rosalina from Galaxy, and now apparently Pauline from her grand return in Odyssey. Not sure why though, doesn't appear to be any logic to it.
Except E. Gadd is still being used (Luigi's Mansion 3). And "Shadow Mario" was just a disguise, not a real character (even if, like Metal Mario, they used it like one at some point).
 

meleebrawler

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There's just nothing Toadsworth does (which is freaking out over anything happening to Peach and giving advice or item support to the Bros.) that hasn't been done before by a regular Toad. I suppose that's a contrast to Toadette who was introduced in a more active position in Double Dash, I believe? As she mainly continued to make playable spin-off appearances, I guess it wasn't much of a stretch to give her that "daring for a Toad" persona she has now. A lot in common with Waluigi if you think about it.

Also Pauline was a recurring character way before Odyssey, consistently appearing in the Mario vs. Donkey series and even getting a spot in the "Nintendo Princesses" Streetpass puzzle. Odyssey just introduced her to the mainstream.
 

Arthur97

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I mean, yeah, but the Toad they brought with them in Color Splash was essentially Toadsworth but a generic Toad (and I guess a bit less intelligent having thrown Mario's hammer overboard). Why not just use Toadsworth at that point? Or, yeah, at least use him in party spin offs. Would be better than another Mario or Peach.
 

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There's just nothing Toadsworth does (which is freaking out over anything happening to Peach and giving advice or item support to the Bros.) that hasn't been done before by a regular Toad. I suppose that's a contrast to Toadette who was introduced in a more active position in Double Dash, I believe? As she mainly continued to make playable spin-off appearances, I guess it wasn't much of a stretch to give her that "daring for a Toad" persona she has now. A lot in common with Waluigi if you think about it.

Also Pauline was a recurring character way before Odyssey, consistently appearing in the Mario vs. Donkey series and even getting a spot in the "Nintendo Princesses" Streetpass puzzle. Odyssey just introduced her to the mainstream.
Toadsworth was awesome. OH NO! YEDDA BLA BLA BLA BLA! You can't forget those words of wisdom when you jumped on him in Mario Sunshine.

In all seriousness, is Origami King anything good? Last Paper Mario I played was Super Paper Mario. Loved it. Loved TTYD too. It where the only Paper Mario games I played.
 

Mamboo07

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Here's a Death Battle thing I made up:
dbm7bw9-b1731854-86c6-4aba-89e2-1def0210c5b7 (1).png

If the Legion of Stationery battled each other in a 6-way fight, who would come out on top?
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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I mean, yeah, but the Toad they brought with them in Color Splash was essentially Toadsworth but a generic Toad (and I guess a bit less intelligent having thrown Mario's hammer overboard). Why not just use Toadsworth at that point? Or, yeah, at least use him in party spin offs. Would be better than another Mario or Peach.
The comfort zone in some dev divisions gets pretty odd. It's a wonder that Tour's staff only brought in :ultdk: characters beyond :ultdiddy: after they've completely run out of ideas for Mario/Peach/Rosalina alts.

You know what the silliest thing is? Out of all the core Galaxy characters to come back, the only ones besides Rosalina were Queen Bee and Ice Mario, and Queen Bee wasn't really asked for in the first place, or even wanted.
 

Arthur97

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The comfort zone in some dev divisions gets pretty odd. It's a wonder that Tour's staff only brought in :ultdk: characters beyond :ultdiddy: after they've completely run out of ideas for Mario/Peach/Rosalina alts.

You know what the silliest thing is? Out of all the core Galaxy characters to come back, the only ones besides Rosalina were Queen Bee and Ice Mario, and Queen Bee wasn't really asked for in the first place, or even wanted.
I doubt they're out. Though, Mario and DK world connections are kind of strange at times. Though, I don't like it when people consider DK a Mario sub-universe since, technically, the DK series came first even if they debuted together.

Again, Ice Mario is just Mario with a power up. But, as for Galaxy, it didn't really pile on the core characters. Neither did Sunshine really. Just Jr. and Toadsworth.
 

Diddy Kong

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So, Dr.Mario has been discussed for Mario Kart, but what about Paper Mario?
 

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https://twitter.com/sevengranddad92/status/1288655180888567808/photo/1

This comment seems insightful. From the sound of it, it seems to be an internal battle between the older generation of Nintendo staff and the fresh faces of Nintendo over cast variety.
That explains a few things , I also haven't really been interested in Mario past New Super Mario Bros. for Wii, while I did LOVE Galaxy and Sunshine for all it's uniqueness.

What baffles me however, is how they don't seem to capitalise on what the fans want. Mario being casual friendly isn't maybe too bad. But why not go the route they went with Mario previously with the Donkey Kong brand? It's in dire need of something new, and has always appeased the more "hardcore" fanbase of Nintendo more than Mario, because of it's overall difficulty. This was a huge emphasis of the Retro DKC games too.

And if not for DKC, there's also Wario which they totally neglect. I never really played the Land and World games, but kind of wish I did now. They could keep Yoshi and Kirby for the most casual kid friendly platformed, DK and Wario for the more veteran players with more experience ; could even use some more adult humour as Rare had back in the days as it would suit Wario fine too, and have Mario as a sort of middle ground, more accessible for all ages.

I don't get Nintendo at times. They have wonderful IPs, but boyyyyyyyyyyy do they waste them!!
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Could be worse, at least Nintendo catalogues lesser used IPs via Smash Bros, Sony can't be arsed to even do that for theirs (beyond PSASBR, but, you know).

I guess casual audiences couldn't care less about any of that and are just content with what series they have, really.
 
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Honest Slug

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You say that, but SPM arguably had the deepest and/or darkest plot of all of them.
2007 was a VERY different era for Mario, especially its spin-offs. I'm 99.9% sure Nintendo will never return to something like that. Super was an oddball game in what was still considered an RPG series, so it still had RPG elements like leveling and a story. Paper Mario is now explicitly an action adventure series and that now is reflected in its storytelling and gameplay elements. At this point Paper Mario being creative and interesting is about as faded of a memory as The Simpsons still being funny, I've accepted that it will never return to what I want it to return to.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Overall, Origami King is seen a net improvement over the previous two installments, even if regular battles are much less interesting than the boss fights.

One thing for sure is though, like it or not, Paper Mario is seemingly going to become more and more of a Zelda-lite adventure series over time, as Tanabe drifts away from staple RPG mechanics.
 
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BZocky

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Not sure if it's been pointed out here yet but Nintendo of Japan added a Paper Mario history section to their Mario Portal.
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/collection/index.html
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/collection/search.html#?g=series&v=papermario
It was added sometime after May 18th (the icon for the series is not present in the archive of the first link from that day) and the earliest archive of the second link goes back to June 28th. Each game has a description, music, screenshots and promotional artwork.
 
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Arthur97

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Actually, the death of Mario and Luigi might send shockwaves over to Paper Mario. It may have been too soon to do anything this time, but it's something to look out for. Alternatively, they may just look for a new dev or let it die and not change PM. That said, a new dev for M&L could bring some new life into that series...if they pull it off well, and sometimes new devs can do wonders with old series like Retro with DKC.
 

Guybrush20X6

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Speaking of that new species only mandate, I can't help at notice that the only classic Partner to show up as a spirit is Vivian.
 

Blankiturayman

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Speaking of that new species only mandate, I can't help at notice that the only classic Partner to show up as a spirit is Vivian.
I figured it was due to her being a more notable one amongst partners but, man, it'd be odd if they couldn't reference the others at all due to the mandate. I think it could be either since we don't know and all we have is to guess.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Meanwhile, some fans assume that Tanabe outright lied about the mandate and has been working to change Paper Mario from the inside ever since he was promoted to its the producer from Super Paper Mario onwards.

So, yeah, at this stage we don't really know.
 

Arthur97

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Maybe it's because Vivian isn't a pre-established species like most if not all of the others from the first two.

Meanwhile, some fans assume that Tanabe outright lied about the mandate and has been working to change Paper Mario from the inside ever since he was promoted to its the producer from Super Paper Mario onwards.

So, yeah, at this stage we don't really know.
Ah, conspiracies! Seriously though, given Miyamoto's record, I can certainly believe he'd do it.
 

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The one thing that no-one is explained is, if exp points are simple enough for Pokemon, an RPG made for kids first and foremost, then why are they too complicated for the pop-up book Mario game?
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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The one thing that no-one is explained is, if exp points are simple enough for Pokemon, an RPG made for kids first and foremost, then why are they too complicated for the pop-up book Mario game?
An excellent point. Doubly so considering how Intelligent Systems' other mainstay series uses an EXP system itself.

 
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