Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[Firedemon0]

His Nair is pretty quick, but you've got a point: lame him out.

...yeah, what am I saying? Fox and Sonic are worse for sure, let me edit that. I'm think I'm letting wifi get to me, which is bad because it makes characters with low risk, high reward options seem better than they are and harder to deal with.

Overall, I think our best bet against characters that have massive mobility advantages over us is to lame them out with Hydrants and trampolines and then exploiting their attempts to get in. That's exactly what Abadango does vs Nietono in their Umebura 11 set.

So Sonic, Fox, Sheik, Falcon, Little Mac, Greninja, anyone fast really.

It is pretty much agreeable that the focus should be on Rosalina. She is the biggest issue Pac-man has. So the question becomes where are improvements needed to limit what Rosalina can do to be such a hard counter.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Weirdly enough I always found my friends Yoshi a hell of a lot harder than his 1.0.3 Rosalina. I do see why she is obviously much more of a threat to Pac than anyone else though.

For me, I find consistent shield pressure with any attack does damage to Luma is always a good strat. Bonus Fruit, hydrants, Smash attacks, it doesnt really matter because without Luma, Rosalina loses that range that really gives her the edge in the matchup. Luma still glitches on a hydrant if used with Luma shot and attempted to be recalled so thats handy for us. Without Luma, we can really try and get stuck in on Rosalina. She still has a lot of positives against us, but we can really do the damage then. I find hydrant in particular a really good way of hitting Luma and even desynching them slightly. If she goes for the down b, you can also usually hit her with a bair while in the animation.

This is what I have found to work, have you guys got any suggestions?

 

[Funkermonster]

How do you go up against Yoshi?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

His Nair is pretty quick, but you've got a point: lame him out.

...yeah, what am I saying? Fox and Sonic are worse for sure, let me edit that. I'm think I'm letting wifi get to me, which is bad because it makes characters with low risk, high reward options seem better than they are and harder to deal with.

Overall, I think our best bet against characters that have massive mobility advantages over us is to lame them out with Hydrants and trampolines and then exploiting their attempts to get in. That's exactly what Abadango does vs Nietono in their Umebura 11 set.

So Sonic, Fox, Sheik, Falcon, Little Mac, Greninja, anyone fast really.

Something to note: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bTN93kgyaw

Abadango doesn't go Pac Man vs. Sheik. Maybe he doesn't think we win the MU?
I think Sheik is even at worst against us. We can negate needles with fruit and hydrants so she has to approach, but I believe our jab is our only move that can consistently compete with hers along with her tilts. Littering the field with trampolines and hydrants are effective at disrupting her approach, but she still has the mobility to get in on us quickly after placing and to put pressure on us.

She does struggle to get that KO though.

Nair nair nair nair nair nair nair.

EDIT: On Rosalina, one Melon against Luma and he's knocked back backwards, skewing Rosalina's control over him. Or just drop a Hydrant on his face.

 

[Nu~]

How do you go up against Yoshi?

Lame him out. Wall him with hydrants and trampolines, break his eggs with the side B power pellet, and go in with fruit when he's vulnerable.

 

[Nu~]

Sorry for the double post, but I believe its time we did an actual in-depth discussion on a character. I vote for mega man because he is a character who would lose to our melon alone, if not for his skull barrier. And if he is bringing customs, so should we. I believe we should carry the meteor trampoline and dire hydrant to this matchup.
Dire because it ruins mega man's main option in CQ; his grab game (we jump over it and drop 10%) and mega man can knock away our hydrant so easily and safely with fsmash. I suggest meteor trampoline because it spikes his linear recovery, and he doesn't threaten us off stage enough for us to have to use the trampoline with more distance. I've been cooking up some nasty techniques with the meteor trampoline, and I'm ready to use them on everyone.

Discussion starts now!!

 

[ME GRIMLOCH]

Alright pac-mains i need some serious help with my little mac game. http://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league/b/610996367 i played against vex and i got 2 wins on him but then he played mac and i got destroyed so i need some help. If you could watch it and tell me what i did wrong and what i need to do to get better at the match up then it would be really apreciated.My matches start at 26:41 against mac btw

 

[Paper Maribro]

*Announcer Voice*

Pac-Man VERSES MegaMan

Overview:

The two new 3rd-party kids on the block go head to head today in an interesting matchup. MegaMan, the projectile zoner with a tonne of kill power against the versatile and adaptable Pac-Man.

The Matchup:

MegaMan will probably start off by trying to set up camp on the other side of the stage. Using his so called Lemons, he will attempt to approach Pac using his walking wall of projectiles. Dont be surprised to see a crash bomber or metal blade heading your way either. Following up with lemons is often a grab. Mega has great grab range for his size and an impressive collection of throws that can kill or combo. Its a shame then, for poor Mega Man, that Melons eat lemons like breakfast and they arent too hard a charge for us. MegaMan also suffers from a fairly poor horizontal recovery, which is absolutely perfect for us to gimp with a combination of Fairs, Bairs and hydrants with a side order of orange gimping if you feel like it. It isnt all bad for Mega though, three of his four kill moves are all designed to kill off the top which is unfortunate for a floaty like Pac as they kill him earlier than they otherwise would. MegaMan can also use his strong meteor, the hard knuckle, to knock us clean out of our side-b. His Bair is also a potent edgeguarding tool.

Conclusion:

Overall I would say this matchup is slightly in our favour. Melons really prohibit Mega from doing the things that he wants to do like setting up a wall and trying to force an approach. In fact, Melons really force Mega to approach and from there it should be easy pickings. However, Mega does have insane killing power on us and you should always be wary of his Dsmash and Up tilt.

I think we should vote for the next Matchup discussion by placing a vote at the end of every analysis and say after a week, we move to the character that gets the most votes.

I would like to vote for Fox.

 

[Nu~]

Melons do ruin his day, but his skull barrier prevents us from camping him out. We have to go in with our melon while he is in the middle of throwing projectiles, or we eat our own melon.
I also think the default hydrant and dire hydrant have a special place in this matchup. Default absorbs his projectiles while we charge, and we can use the water bursts to launch z dropped fruit at him (especially melons). The dire hydrant however, allows us to be more aggressive. We can ruin his grab attempts by dropping one once he gets near, and we don't have to worry about his charge shot launching our hydrant, or his skull barrier reflecting it. Also, the only offensive options Mega man has with his barrier up is to throw a metal blade in his hand, or grab. We can save our melon for later, and brutally massacre him in CQQ when he decides to try to force us to approach with his barrier. Or we can wait and charge up a key, then Up B when mega tries to grab.

This matchup definitely looks good for us.

I also vote fox. This matchup is always fun for me. It just feels so great slowing his game down, then bursting when he makes a mistake.

 

[Paper Maribro]

When analysing, I am gonna be using a strictly customs off mindset. They dont seem to be very big over here at all. Even Miis only get a 1111 moveset so when I do these, I will be talking with customs off in mind.

 

[Nu~]

I can respect that. I just wanted to talk with a customs on mindset because I want to be ready for the future meta if/when customs are allowed in most places.

Edit: we need to discuss ways to combat the top characters

Diddy
Sheik
Rosa
Sonic
Yoshi
Pika
Falcon
Fox
ZSS
Lucario

Besides resorting to camp them out (which doesn't work proficiently) how do you all think we can handle these characters?

I'll start with diddy.
I believe that the trampoline and BF are our best tools. Trampoline makes it very hard for him to grab us, and forces him to approach us from the air, or wait while we charge our fruit. Strawberries and oranges are key to ruining his approach, while the galaxian and apple help to put him in bad positions thar we can capitalize off of (Apple puts him over our head, galaxian starts combos)
In this matchup, make sure to always play on the defensive, and we should be fine. His speed can easily overwhelm us should he get too close, but the trampoline and fruit can easily stop his predictable approaches (banana gets eaten by every fruit or meat sheilded by the hydrant, SH aerials, monkey flip)
Usually we have problems killing opponents, but diddy is so easily gimped by our hydrant should he choose to recover low, or our orange and melon if he tries to monkey flip.
All is not oranges and melons however, as diddy can and will get in your face and punish you for making the smallest mistake. Diddy launches the hydrant in one fsmash or dsmash, so we can't just hide behind it all match. Don't leave your hydrant unattended. Always be near it to punish him when he tries to launch it, but make sure to charge your fruit when you have time. On fire hydrant is optimal for this, as we can sheild the fire and charge our fruit, while diddy struggles to get in and smash it away.
Play defensive and smart in this matchup, and we should have few problems fighting diddy. I would put this matchup even or slightly our favor because diddy destroys us up close, but you should be able to keep him out of your face in the mid range with your fruit, until you need to go in for the kill.

 

[Rashid]

Something to keep in mind against Duck Hunt? Not sure if anyone else encountered it before.
http://smashboards.com/threads/teleporting-can-glitch.387321/

 

[Nu~]

This may help us stop DH's can shenanigans.

So now that we know that pac-man has more traps/set ups than we knew before, we may have to reevaluate our matchups.

Diddy becomes easier because we can shut down his strongest options: uair(hydrant), banana(trampoline on banana) and grab (trampoline)

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Yo, can I ask if you discussed the Zelda MU ? I sw***, she can just hit us through our SideB, and reflect out fruits & hydrant away >.<'
She is way too frustrating to fight ! Anyone has hints to share ?

 

[Nu~]

Yo, can I ask if you discussed the Zelda MU ? I sw***, she can just hit us through our SideB, and reflect out fruits & hydrant away >.<'
She is way too frustrating to fight ! Anyone has hints to share ?

The thing to keep in mind is that the fruit have a max range, if you learn to time it right you can actually just make them reflect, think they have you, and it poofs while you come in with a dash grab or attack. Better foxes are able to use their oos options after reflecting. In those cases, you would avoid a dash attack or grab and shield instead, then punish the oos option. The Pit Orbitars are really underwhelming and very easy to punish. With Mario's Cape is similar, but if they spam it, you can be turned around awkwardly. Paletuna's has bad end lag, and is susceptible to a hydrant strike from above. Falco's is a bit more interesting, if used correctly we have a hard time getting in because of it's range. If it is spammed, it is easy to punish however.

The trick to reflectors is to understand how it will come back at you. You do not want to have Hydrant reflected back up in your face from Fox when trying to get back to the ground. Launched Hydrants follow very predictable arcs, which continue when reflected, and you should know how they bounce. Part of the trap game is the Hydrant and reacting to the player's method of breaking it.

.

^^General advice for reflectors. They don't bother us. Also, zelda's is on the slow side when it comes to startup. I'm not sure how you are getting hit out of your side B, unless it is before you eat the pellet. In which case, you shouldn't aim it near Zelda while recovering.
Also, Zelda is bad. She can't approach us, she struggles when we get in her face, and she dies verry early. Pressure her, and she flops.

 

[dragontamer]

Pressuring Zelda is a bit of a dangerous game. Her Fair comes out on frame 9, while her Bair comes out on frame 6. Both do 20% when sweet-spotted and KO very early. When pressuring an aerial Zelda, be careful of your positioning, you really don't want to give her free kicks.

Zelda may die early, but she doesn't die to PacMan's standard gimping options. Whenever she teleports in, be careful, her teleport does a surprising amount of damage. You never know where a good Zelda is going to teleport to, so be patient and know that she'll get back on stage often.

Her Smash attacks have large startups, but are very meaty with short cooldowns. Be sure to block all the hits on shield, and don't roll or sidestep while blocking them either. Zelda loses to pressure because her jabs and FTilts are bad, but I would be wary of her Smash attacks.

Zelda doesn't need to approach. She uses Side-B and Down-B for long range games, and can easily reflect hydrant and fruit back at us. A smart Zelda forces PacMan to approach. I think PacMan has the advantage going in on Zelda, but do be careful of her options.

I think Zelda is a bit of an underrated character right now. A lot of people are calling her bottom tier. IMO, she's no better than mid-tier, but don't underestimate her. I don't think she's the worst char in the game, and she certainly isn't our easiest matchup.

I don't think Zelda is a difficult matchup either. Just... don't underestimate her.

 

[MachoCheeze]

I'm not sure if this is known or not, but I was playing my friend who was a semi-pro Brawl Diddy main and now Smash 4 Diddy main with my Pac-Man and apparently the way Pac-Man bounces when he trips inhibits certain banana follow ups Diddy has.

This apparently was also an issue against Samus in brawl.

 

[meleebrawler]

Her Smash attacks have large startups, but are very meaty with short cooldowns. Be sure to block all the hits on shield, and don't roll or sidestep while blocking them either. Zelda loses to pressure because her jabs and FTilts are bad, but I would be wary of her Smash attacks.

Zelda doesn't need to approach. She uses Side-B and Down-B for long range games, and can easily reflect hydrant and fruit back at us. A smart Zelda forces PacMan to approach. I think PacMan has the advantage going in on Zelda, but do be careful of her options.

I think Zelda is a bit of an underrated character right now. A lot of people are calling her bottom tier. IMO, she's no better than mid-tier, but don't underestimate her. I don't think she's the worst char in the game, and she certainly isn't our easiest matchup.

I don't think Zelda is a difficult matchup either. Just... don't underestimate her.

Her jab and ftilt may be slower than Pac-man's, but her jab can lead into things like
dash attacks and grabs at lower percents and ftilt can kiil pretty well if she can't
land her other kill moves.

I don't see Phantom as being good in a long range role, it charges too slowly for
it to gain any decent distance. I see it more as an unconventional footsie tool that
creates a wall of sorts which blocks projectiles (except for galaxian and key) and messes
up spacing with how it pushes people. In a customs environment, Phantom Breaker always
goes max distance and does good shield damage, however.

Whether she is bad or not, she is definitely one of the most difficult characters to use
and that turns a lot of people off.

 

[Firedemon0]

Her jab and ftilt may be slower than Pac-man's, but her jab can lead into things like
dash attacks and grabs at lower percents and ftilt can kiil pretty well if she can't
land her other kill moves.

I don't see Phantom as being good in a long range role, it charges too slowly for
it to gain any decent distance. I see it more as an unconventional footsie tool that
creates a wall of sorts which blocks projectiles (except for galaxian and key) and messes
up spacing with how it pushes people. In a customs environment, Phantom Breaker always
goes max distance and does good shield damage, however.

Whether she is bad or not, she is definitely one of the most difficult characters to use
and that turns a lot of people off.

Fun fact about phantom and key. Phantom not only does not block Key, it hits Zelda with full force afterwards too. So unless they are expecting it, they will get wrecked and I ended such a match that way.

 

[fabz97]

Any tips for lucina? Struggling to get on the inside, if i try to camp she rushes in

 

[Nu~]

Any tips for lucina? Struggling to get on the inside, if i try to camp she rushes in

Easily in our favor. Due to the low hitstun the blade produces, everything she has is unsafe on shield and will be punished by a nair OOS or even dropping your sheild and attacking. Also, her aerials have a lot of ending lag, so the trampoline immediately puts her in a bad position. Lucian never wants to play rushdown. She will be severely punished every time. She outranges our aerial attacks (barring bair and uair) but is easily kept out of our space with the fruit. Try throwing a melon out, and then running behind it. Whatever she does to react to it, we can punish.
Oh, and gimping her is incredibly easy with the orange.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Just figured that a Tramp is Cpt Falcon's worst nightmare.

Tramp makes him jump when he

-FSmashes
-Falcon Kicks
-Raptor Boosts

 

[Nu~]

Just figured that a Tramp is Cpt Falcon's worst nightmare.

Tramp makes him jump when he

-FSmashes
-Falcon Kicks
-Raptor Boosts

Even worse is how he has nothing safe to land with

 

[fabz97]

Easily in our favor. Due to the low hitstun the blade produces, everything she has is unsafe on shield and will be punished by a nair OOS or even dropping your sheild and attacking. Also, her aerials have a lot of ending lag, so the trampoline immediately puts her in a bad position. Lucian never wants to play rushdown. She will be severely punished every time. She outranges our aerial attacks (barring bair and uair) but is easily kept out of our space with the fruit. Try throwing a melon out, and then running behind it. Whatever she does to react to it, we can punish.
Oh, and gimping her is incredibly easy with the orange.

Ok cheers bro, yeah i can gimp easy its just the neutral im struggling but i'll try what you said

 

[Jay-kun]

So wut are some ways to drop the bonus fruit (descriptions on all bonus fruit plz)? I only know 1 way: throw cherry, pick up cherry :/

 

[Nu~]

Alright, this is my matchup list constructed from theory craft and experience

Advantage 60:40 and above:


Slight advantage 55:45:


Disadvantage 40:60 and below:


Slight disadvantage 45:55 :


Even:





Unsure:



Hopefully this will start discussion

EDIT: thought some matchups through a little more.
I know putting lucario in the advantage list seems asinine, but I feel the one thing holding us back in this matchup is our kill power. However, with the new bell tricks we have learned from fromundaman, it's been really easy to kill at early percentages. This allows us to blast lucario to smithereens before he gets the upper hand. Also, the apple, usmash, and power pac jump custom work wonders in this matchup.
I also moved link to even because of how we can destroy him once we are in, but it's hard to get there. (Reminds me of the G&W matchup vs link back in brawl. We crushed him...once we made it past the wall) seems 55:45 in our favor. However, toon link lacks the range that link has over us, and is much easier to approach due to his inferior projectiles. He has to rely on bombs to get his combos going, but every bomb he throws clashes or loses to our fruit. It's an uphill battle for him, but isn't all bad considering he still has a deadly Usmash.

Also I moved wario. I used to dislike fighting him because he could eat my fruit and stop some of them with his bike, but now I realize how well this matchup goes for us. Wario's air approaches are outsped by ours and more or less match ours in range. His ground options are slower than ours (bar dtilt) and as long as you don't try to camp him out, you can apply pressure in the mid range. Just watch out for the waft.

Villager was next to move to advantage because we shut down his camp game, and traps. His fair and bair have low priority and lose to nair, his slow side B is evaporated by PP, and his nuetral is just overall inferior to ours (slower tilts, less range on tilts) just don't let him pocket your fruit. If he does, immediately charge yours. Villager can only stop your ability to charge fruit if he has your fruit in his hand, you can still charge it when it's in his pocket. His bowling ball over the edge also doesn't scare me because side B can power through it with super armor, or up B clashes with it. Just watch out for tree over the edge ( too bad it takes years to set up)

 

[Nu~]

So wut are some ways to drop the bonus fruit (descriptions on all bonus fruit plz)? I only know 1 way: throw cherry, pick up cherry :/

Strawberry: throw it, pick it up
Orange: unsure
Apple: hit hydrant or opponent, air dodge or use aerial to pick it up when it bounces
Melon: same as Apple, only you can run after it and catch it with dash attack
Galaxian: air dodge or attack
Bell: pick it up
Key: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZP8AuCyBA

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Hydrant stops and returns MechaKoopa to sender

Don't play mid-range and react to BJow's tools to get him off-stage.

 

[dragontamer]

Even worse is how he has nothing safe to land with

Capt. Falcon's Nair is pretty solid actually.

Alright, this is my matchup list constructed from theory craft and experience

Advantage:


Disadvantage:


Even:



Unsure of:



Hopefully this will start discussion

I feel like we're disadvantaged against Shiek, Mario, and Yoshi. Just slightly for Shiek / Mario, but I wouldn't put them any better than "even".

Ike really hates oranges. I don't think he has a safe approach against us, aside from power-shielding our various projectiles.

 

[Nu~]

Capt. Falcon's Nair is pretty solid actually.

True, but loses to OOS nair unless spaced really well

 

[dragontamer]

True, but loses to OOS nair unless spaced really well

Its generally safe to assume that opponents know how to space their characters.

 

[Nu~]

I feel like we're disadvantaged against Shiek, Mario, and Yoshi. Just slightly for Shiek / Mario, but I wouldn't put them any better than "even".

Ike really hates oranges. I don't think he has a safe approach against us, aside from power-shielding our various projectiles.

Every sheik main I see says that pac is a bad matchup for them. That we force them to approach and that the top of the hydrant is their blind spot.
And I still don't feel that yoshi is that bad for us, but maybe because I've never struggled against him, nor see why I would in theory. Mario is probably even though

 

[dragontamer]

Yoshi's eggs are superior to PacMan's fruit, which forces Pacman to approach. Short-hops get stubbed by Yoshi's USmashes and Egg Tosses.

This leaves PacMan's only real option as grounded assaults. PacMan's Dash attack loses out to Yoshi's grab and Dash attack. We tie in range everywhere else, except Yoshi is maybe 25% to 30% faster than PacMan. (faster Jab, faster Tilts, faster smashes), while KOing us with USmash or FSmash around 100%.

The grounded matchup game is annoying. The best we can do to punish Yoshi's whiffed USmash is maybe FTilt or Dash Attack. If we whiff a USmash, Yoshi can counter-USmash or FSmash for the KO. Yoshi is just that much faster than us, which forces PacMan to play much more carefully.

Playing the safer FTilt or DTilt game also opens us to counter-fsmashes, as Yoshi's FSmash moves Yoshi out of range on its startup. We don't really have any way to trick Yoshi into eating PacMan's FSmash, outside of catching Yoshi out of a Roll or some other hard read.

Still, outside of Yoshi's FSmash, PacMan's FTilt and DTilts are good in this matchup. But we definitely don't have many options.

Yoshi is one of the few characters who are more mobile in the air than PacMan. Heck, our dash is barely fast enough to keep up with Yoshi's aerial speed. Yoshi often can land wherever he wants on the stage. Furthermore, with super-armor on the 2nd jump and strange movement options (Yoshi Bomb can be used to dodge attacks, it has a built-in hop)... and a 3frame Nair, Yoshi has a very strong anti-juggle game.

Pacman's anti-juggle game is IMO better, but Yoshi's anti-juggle game is amongst the best in the game.

Going into matchup specific stuff, Yoshi has a huge lunge on his dash attack, which makes Yoshi one of the best characters to counter-dashattack while catching PacMan's fruit.

 

[Nu~]

Yoshi's eggs are superior to PacMan's fruit, which forces Pacman to approach. Short-hops get stubbed by Yoshi's USmashes and Egg Tosses.

This leaves PacMan's only real option as grounded assaults. PacMan's Dash attack loses out to Yoshi's grab and Dash attack. We tie in range everywhere else, except Yoshi is maybe 25% to 30% faster than PacMan. (faster Jab, faster Tilts, faster smashes), while KOing us with USmash or FSmash around 100%.

The grounded matchup game is annoying. The best we can do to punish Yoshi's whiffed USmash is maybe FTilt or Dash Attack. If we whiff a USmash, Yoshi can counter-USmash or FSmash for the KO. Yoshi is just that much faster than us, which forces PacMan to play much more carefully.

Playing the safer FTilt or DTilt game also opens us to counter-fsmashes, as Yoshi's FSmash moves Yoshi out of range on its startup. We don't really have any way to trick Yoshi into eating PacMan's FSmash, outside of catching Yoshi out of a Roll or some other hard read.

Still, outside of FSmash, PacMan's FTilt and DTilts are good in this matchup. But we definitely don't have many options.

Yoshi is one of the few characters who are more mobile in the air than PacMan. Heck, our dash is barely fast enough to keep up with Yoshi's aerial speed. Yoshi often can land wherever he wants on the stage. Furthermore, with super-armor on the 2nd jump and strange movement options (Yoshi Bomb can be used to dodge attacks, it has a built-in hop)... and a 3frame Nair, Yoshi has a very strong anti-juggle game.

Pacman's anti-juggle game is IMO better, but Yoshi's anti-juggle game is amongst the best in the game.

Going into matchup specific stuff, Yoshi has a huge lunge on his dash attack, which makes Yoshi one of the best characters to counter-dashattack while catching PacMan's fruit.

Well to cure the difficulty we have killing him, I've found out that the power-pac jump custom can kill at very low percentages when used on opponents in the air. Since yoshi loves to be in be air, we can get a cheesy kill on him when he's above us, but with everything else you have said, I agree that he my not be a favorable matchup.

 

[Jay-kun]

Well to cure the difficulty we have killing him, I've found out that the power-pac jump custom can kill at very low percentages when used on opponents in the air. Since yoshi loves to be in be air, we can get a cheesy kill on him when he's above us, but with everything else you have said, I agree that he my not be a favorable matchup.

Wut is that?

 

[Nu~]

Wut is that?

It's a custom move that bounces us really high and has a multi hit property, but leaves no trampoline behind.

 

[dragontamer]

The Yoshi I play against actually fights with a very strong grounded game.

He uses his aerial game to safely land. I'm often confident at gimping opponents and keeping them off the stage, but Yoshi's aerial mobility and Bair really makes capitalizing on launches difficult.

My strategy is to punt on the juggle attempts vs Yoshi, and instead charge up a key. Cherry / Strawberry is not very useful vs Yoshi due to Yoshi's quicker eggs. Key can be used to "checkmate KO" Yoshi on landing. Bell is the best anti-air projectile in the game, Melon and Galexian provide very safe approaches for PacMan.

Apple KOs Yoshi very early. Like at 130%. Center-stage, Apple might kill sooner than Key (I'll have to test this...). But yeah, Apple man, its a KO move in this matchup. Yoshi's gravity or something must make him weak to attacks that launch him vertically.

Orange can gimp Yoshi though. Its the only low-level fruit that I'd consider in this matchup.

EDIT: Lulz, tells you how I like to play. I call Bonus fruit weak against Yoshi because only 6 of our 8 options are useful.

 

[Nu~]

The Yoshi I play against actually fights with a very strong grounded game.

He uses his aerial game to safely land. I'm often confident at gimping opponents and keeping them off the stage, but Yoshi's aerial mobility and Bair really makes capitalizing on launches difficult.

My strategy is to punt on the juggle attempts vs Yoshi, and instead charge up a key. Cherry / Strawberry is not very useful vs Yoshi due to Yoshi's quicker eggs. Key can be used to "checkmate KO" Yoshi on landing. Bell is the best anti-air projectile in the game, Melon and Galexian provide very safe approaches for PacMan.

Apple KOs Yoshi very early. Like at 130%. Center-stage, Apple might kill sooner than Key (I'll have to test this...). But yeah, Apple man, its a KO move in this matchup. Yoshi's gravity or something must make him weak to attacks that launch him vertically.

Orange can gimp Yoshi though. Its the only low-level fruit that I'd consider in this matchup.

EDIT: Lulz, tells you how I like to play. I call Bonus fruit weak against Yoshi because only 6 of our 8 options are useful.

XD yeah
and yoshi dies early vertically. It's because of his floaty nature. The floatier you are, the faster you die vertically. And the slower your air speed is horizontally, the faster you die vertically. It's why I killed yoshi with the power pac jump at 100%

 

[Jay-kun]

Sooooo how do you shield out of run never learned how

 

[Paper Maribro]

Alright, this is my matchup list constructed from theory craft and experience

Advantage:


Disadvantage:


Even:



Unsure of:



Hopefully this will start discussion

Fox is easily in Fox's favour. Due to our floatiness, Fox's jab can basically combo into anything Fox wants. If he gets greedy you may get a nair in but I haven't had much luck tbh.

I would say Sheik is even. Yeah she may be forced to approach and everything but it's not like her approach options aren't insane and her combo ability isn't amazing. Fruit is great but you need to be careful how you aim it for it to eat needles. Orange does a great job, but bouncier fruit like cherry, don't do as good a job.

I would also like to suggest moving Diddy somewhere else. I've had nothing but bad experience against good Diddys and many others in the Skype group suggest that Diddy is indeed a bad MU for us. His primary kill move, UAir, kills off the top which is exactly what we are weak to. Sure we may have shenanigans to annoy Diddy players but fundamentally they have a stronger game than us.

The Links should probably be moved elsewhere too. Their range can make approaching really unsafe for Pac (which is exactly what we will be doing because their projectile is much stronger than our own) and they both have a lot of power on their normals to boot. This is not an easy MU at all.

I also suggest moving Samus to even at least. A lot of her moves are insanely quick on start up so if her aim is on point, she can outrange and outspeed Pac quite easily. She kills pretty easily too.

ZSS is not clearly in our advantage. She is so fast she can easily disrupt a lot of our stuff. Most of the guys in the skype group hate this MU for a reason. It's not in our advantage at all.

Ness is even minimum imo. He gets amazing combos from down throw and kills early from Bthrow. His grab is also low commitment with a good projectile for forcing it. I know PP can do work in this MU apparently but if the Ness is playing smart then it may not be something you can do on reaction.

I'm not so sure about characters like Shulk (dat range), Oli (people in the skype group hate him), the Pits (it's always seemed like hard work to me) and the heavies (these guys can really make our lives hell much like we can to them so I would say all heavies are even) but I either haven't got enough experience with them or I am in two minds about how they are for us.

One last thing, you put Falco twice in disadvantage and Duck Hunt Duo in disadvantage and even .