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Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

Nu~

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Alright, while this is mostly based on for-glory experience, I've been having an awful time fighting ike/shulk. I'm going to lump them together because for all-intensive purposes they're both pretty similar in how they can punish us.

I find it really hard to space them out because hydrant is pretty negligible in this matchup. They're sword range and power makes quick work of any hydrants I throw out. I've tried using offensive/zoning trampolines against them but again, neither of them mind being in the air and their aeriels plus sword length are really dangerous when they approach. I can space them a bit with good fruit play but a good shulk/ike will be bearing down on me so hard that a lot of times I'm just using strawberry/melon to buy me time.

So pretty much, I've conceded that this matchup has to be fought aggressively and up close, but the problem is I'm not really sure how to approach. A good Shulk especially I've found hard to deal with because his counter is just so effective against a lot of my approaches. I also feel like even when I get in, that if I don't play it damn near perfect, I'm going to get punished really hard because of their power. Add to this how heavy they are and how hard it is to kill, and these matchups have been a night mare.

Anyone else have a similar experience? Any tips?
Actually, shulk and Ike have a really hard time fighting when they're above us. Up air can juggle them forever, and they only have the option to counter (which can be baited) or air dodge. Trampoline works wonders.
Also, about them destroying the hydrant.
If they keep wailing on it you can just punish the attack. Stand behind the hydrant, shield, and punish the cool down.
It's all about patience and spacing in this matchup. Let them approach you, you have the projectiles to keep them away
 

PacDaddy

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Alright thanks for the advice guys, if I face another good shulk and I'm still having trouble, I'll try to upload some videos to see where I'm messing up.
 

bekindrewind

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Alright thanks for the advice guys, if I face another good shulk and I'm still having trouble, I'll try to upload some videos to see where I'm messing up.
Shulk gives me trouble too. It's a combination of nerves and his range is really huge in my opinion.
 

AguaZa

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Shulk gives me trouble too. It's a combination of nerves and his range is really huge in my opinion.
I feel like Pac has major trouble with anyone who can get him away from his hydrant/hit it back in one or two quick hits. Personally, I hate Shulk anyways. One of the most annoying characters.
 

Funkermonster

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Advice against :4zss:? Mostly FG experience, but I find her the most troublesome character to go against. :4wiifit: has also been a thorn in my side lately, because I do not know that character well at all and rarely go against her.
 

WeirdChillFever

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Advice against :4zss:? Mostly FG experience, but I find her the most troublesome character to go against. :4wiifit: has also been a thorn in my side lately, because I do not know that character well at all and rarely go against her.
ZSS: DTilt her when you're close, then trampoline away. Block things with Hydrant.
The key here is to stay away whip-lenght.
 

Paper Maribro

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Advice against :4zss:? Mostly FG experience, but I find her the most troublesome character to go against. :4wiifit: has also been a thorn in my side lately, because I do not know that character well at all and rarely go against her.
Weirdly enough I find grab really, really good against her. Dthrow and Bthrow all day. Ever since I started grabbing them, I havent had a ZSS trouble me in the slightest.

As an aside and relating to grabs, Downthrow into key is a pretty good way to start a stock. A solid 26% right off the bat.
 

Quinho

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What about the samus match-up?
I cannot deal with the barrage of missiles and she always charge her Charge Shot for free against me.
I gave up on using hydrant altogether and stopped going for the key all the time, but Samus players still have the upper hand. I cannot understand how to play this match-up.
 

WeirdChillFever

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What about the samus match-up?
I cannot deal with the barrage of missiles and she always charge her Charge Shot for free against me.
I gave up on using hydrant altogether and stopped going for the key all the time, but Samus players still have the upper hand. I cannot understand how to play this match-up.
If she's rolling around the stage, you can chase her with your Side B.
 

Paper Maribro

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Hey guys, I did a matchup chart thing in the skype group. Nobody seemed to disagree too much with it so I will post it here for further discussion.

Big advantage: Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Mii SF, Dr. Mario, Bowser Jr.

Advantage: Dedede, Bowser, Ganon, Charizard, Sheik, Mario, WFT, Duck Hunt Duo, Mega Man, Lucina, Robin, Falco, Fox, Samus, Game and Watch, Mii Gunner, Meta Knight, Pit, Dark Pit, DK, Greninja

Even or 55/45 for either side MUs: Peach, Luigi, Zelda, Link, Toon Link, ZSS, Kirby, Marth, Ike, Shulk, Mii Brawler, Palutena, ROB, Sonic, Jiggly

Disadvantage: Villager, Ness, Pikachu, Wario, Olimar, Rosalina

Solid Disadvantage: Yoshi, Lucario, Diddy Kong

Characters I am iffy on placing due to lack of inexperience watching or playing against:

Pit, Dark Pit, Samus, DK, Kirby, Meta Knight, Jiggly, WFT, Shulk, Palutena, Olimar and the Miis

I think there is a lot of room for discussion here, so go ahead and pick it apart so we can hopefully all learn from each other :)
 

Nu~

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What about the samus match-up?
I cannot deal with the barrage of missiles and she always charge her Charge Shot for free against me.
I gave up on using hydrant altogether and stopped going for the key all the time, but Samus players still have the upper hand. I cannot understand how to play this match-up.
You get in her face and crush her. The fruit and hydrant are your friends. Thet eats her missles and absorb her charge shot so use them to get in. Her close range game is pretty bad (especially in the air ) so destroy her there

Hey guys, I did a matchup chart thing in the skype group. Nobody seemed to disagree too much with it so I will post it here for further discussion.

Big advantage: Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Mii SF, Dr. Mario, Bowser Jr.

Advantage: Dedede, Bowser, Ganon, Charizard, Sheik, Mario, WFT, Duck Hunt Duo, Mega Man, Lucina, Robin, Falco, Fox, Samus, Game and Watch, Mii Gunner, Meta Knight, Pit, Dark Pit, DK, Greninja

Even or 55/45 for either side MUs: Peach, Luigi, Zelda, Link, Toon Link, ZSS, Kirby, Marth, Ike, Shulk, Mii Brawler, Palutena, ROB, Sonic, Jiggly

Disadvantage: Villager, Ness, Pikachu, Wario, Olimar, Rosalina

Solid Disadvantage: Yoshi, Lucario, Diddy Kong

Characters I am iffy on placing due to lack of inexperience watching or playing against:

Pit, Dark Pit, Samus, DK, Kirby, Meta Knight, Jiggly, WFT, Shulk, Palutena, Olimar and the Miis
I would like to start by discussing diddy kong. Why exactly is he a big disadvantage when we can hydrant his up airs, destroy his bananas with our fruit, and keep him away throughout the whole match with hydrants and fruit. We can even break out of his grab with up B (if you see it coming, and you will)
It's absolutely terrible for him when he's off the ledge, because we can gimp him so easily it's not even funny.

Same with yoshi. As long as you aren't directly above him for most of the match, we can keep him out with fruit, and power shield his eggs. Every yoshi I fight falls apart when I don't allow them to follow up their egg tossing. I even use his eggs to bomb my fruit, catch them, and begin the z dropping party. The trampoline is useful as ever because his down b and down air are very punishable, and it just gets him off of us. Play patient, but aggressive and you shouldn't have a problem.

I believe it's either even or 55/45 in our favor in these match ups.
 
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Paper Maribro

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I would like to start by discussing diddy kong. Why exactly is he a big disadvantage when we can hydrant his up airs, destroy his bananas with our fruit, and keep him away throughout the whole match with hydrants and fruit. We can even break out of his grab with up B (if you see it coming, and you will)
It's absolutely terrible for him when he's off the ledge, because we can gimp him so easily it's not even funny.

Same with yoshi. As long as you aren't directly above him for most of the match, we can keep him out with fruit, and power shield his eggs. Every yoshi I fight falls apart when I don't allow them to follow up their egg tossing. I even use his eggs to bomb my fruit, catch them, and begin the z dropping party. The trampoline is useful as ever because his down b and down air are very punishable, and it just gets him off of us. Play patient, but aggressive and you shouldn't have a problem.

I believe it's either even or 55/45 in our favor in these match ups.
For whatever reason… I never saw this >_<. Sorry dude!

Anyway, Diddy big disadvantage. Hydranting up airs is good and all, but you can only drop one and if Diddy can grab you again while one is down, you are gonna be in pain. Not to mention the Diddy I faced who utterly destroyed me on FG barely used Up Air anyway, he just followed my DI and used Bairs or Fairs. Grab is usually used while tripped up and if Diddy is doing that like he should, then you cant just trampoline out of a grab. Fruit destroys bananas? How? I would love to know, maybe its just a disadvantage but I dont see Pac beats Diddy in any way. Diddy has so many tools and options that getting him off stage to gimp him isnt always easy.

Fruit is useless against Yoshi. Eggs are way too powerful a tool and arent exactly easy to powershield. They really, really interrupt Pac Mans ability to charge fruit if used correctly. It basically becomes a game where the only time to charge fruit is when Yoshi is off stage and as soon he is back on, egg pressure and rushdown pressure is real. You cannot also afford to make any mistakes against Yoshi because he can kill you so much earlier than you can kill him. Dair is a real problem because of this as it does a ridiculous amount of damage because of this. I have to ask, whats your experience with Yoshi? Because I have played some on FG and one IRL and I have to say, FG Yoshis are generally bad and dont use eggs properly at all. FG Yoshis had me thinking that Yoshi was going to be easy for us. I was wrong. Oh and Orange gimping (one of our earliest killing tools) is essentially useless because of jump armour. I just cant see how in anyway Yoshi is beatable by us. His pressure game is amazing and lives and hits harder than us by a large amount.
 

Nu~

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For whatever reason… I never saw this >_<. Sorry dude!

Anyway, Diddy big disadvantage. Hydranting up airs is good and all, but you can only drop one and if Diddy can grab you again while one is down, you are gonna be in pain. Not to mention the Diddy I faced who utterly destroyed me on FG barely used Up Air anyway, he just followed my DI and used Bairs or Fairs. Grab is usually used while tripped up and if Diddy is doing that like he should, then you cant just trampoline out of a grab. Fruit destroys bananas? How? I would love to know, maybe its just a disadvantage but I dont see Pac beats Diddy in any way. Diddy has so many tools and options that getting him off stage to gimp him isnt always easy.

Fruit is useless against Yoshi. Eggs are way too powerful a tool and arent exactly easy to powershield. They really, really interrupt Pac Mans ability to charge fruit if used correctly. It basically becomes a game where the only time to charge fruit is when Yoshi is off stage and as soon he is back on, egg pressure and rushdown pressure is real. You cannot also afford to make any mistakes against Yoshi because he can kill you so much earlier than you can kill him. Dair is a real problem because of this as it does a ridiculous amount of damage because of this. I have to ask, whats your experience with Yoshi? Because I have played some on FG and one IRL and I have to say, FG Yoshis are generally bad and dont use eggs properly at all. FG Yoshis had me thinking that Yoshi was going to be easy for us. I was wrong. Oh and Orange gimping (one of our earliest killing tools) is essentially useless because of jump armour. I just cant see how in anyway Yoshi is beatable by us. His pressure game is amazing and lives and hits harder than us by a large amount.
Alright. Well I have a lot to say, so please forgive me in advance for my wall of text lol.

I'll let you listen to some awesome pacman world 2 music while you read.


So kick back and relax, it's gonna be a while XD.


To start off, how is diddy approaching us easily? Set up a trampoline & hydrant wall in the middle of the stage and start charging your fruit to either the melong or galaxian. These are the fruits that completely ruin diddy' day. After he manages to jump over your fort (possibly using his double jump in the process or using monkey flip, punish his landing with either up smash or utilt. Diddy hates being directly above his opponent, and that's where we can manage to keep him all the time, while messing up his ground game with hydrant and trampoline stage control. The trampoline protects the hydrant from being launched by diddy, and makes a wall that diddy is forced to jump over and approach, or wait and let us charge all day, just for us to set it up again. While there is no hydrant or trampoline on the field (even though there should always be in this matchup) you must have your melon or galaxian if you are going in for an approach, or use your cherry, strawberry, and orange if diddy charges at you. If diddy throws a banana, you can throw any fruit to destroy it (cherry and strawberry are the fastest for this) due to the horrible priority of the banana peel. You can then predict his grab (which is easy against this grab reliant character) and punish. This is a battle that utilizes Pac-Man's versatility the greatest. You charge in with a melon or galaxian to force him to shield, because he can jump over the melon without getting punished by a fair, RAR bair, or nair if you're close enough. The galaxian forces him to sheild which gives you a free grab into forward throw which should throw him back into the galaxian for more damage, and confirms another hit for you to follow up with.
You need to remember this pattern, throw weaker fruit and set up your fortress to ruin approaches, and use your firtress to buy time to get you the fruit you need to charge in. Getting him above you is a huge advantage for you, so use the trampoline to punish any attacks that land on your sheild, and always punish him when he jump on your trampoline. The Apple is key for this, as it always forces him into the air. Doing all of this will push him further towards the ledge, which is where you destroy him with a gimp of your choice depending on where he recovers from. The Orange, melon, and key are for horizontal approaches, and the Apple, hydrant, and bell are for vertical recoveries. Aerials can punish him from horizontal or vertical depending on how safe you feel timing your aerial to challenge his monkey flip. The Bell is for stealing extremely early kills if you get the opportunity to charge it (remember to build your fortress when you need high tier fruit)
Switch between playing safe and aggressive and you should be able to destroy diddy.

Now for yoshi. I fight on smash ladder, which is where I fight many great players, including diddys and yoshis.
I fought the most annoying yoshi in my entire life. He kept pressuring me with eggs the entire match, and racked up so much damage. But what I noticed, is that he couldn't really follow up his egg spam when he threw them while he was in the air. He just couldn't land quick enough to punish. And if he used eggs on the ground, I would build a fortress to stay away from the eggs and waited for him to come to me. This is a match of great patience. Use the trampoline and hydrant to gain space, and that's how you charge your fruit. Yoshi is normally really good at approaching from above due to his crazy dair and down B, but we have an amazing tool in our usmash to counteract these threats. When yoshi jumps over your fort, he can only approach with fair, dair, down B, or nair. All are punished my Usmash or utilt. The reason why I always say use utilt to stop landings is because of a special aspect of it that was discovered; we have invincibility throughout most of the attack, similar to G&W's usmash. Usmash is better for punishing down B landings due to how long the hitbox lasts for, and is better for punish yoshis fair because we have more priority. Utilit is great for punishing nair and dair approaches thought because of its better horizontal reach (I suggest using this move backwards though, because it has more reach in the back)
You always want yoshi to approach you in this matchup, so setting up your fort is a great way to lure yoshi in, because they want to stop you from charging. Whenever a yoshi is above you while throwing eggs, run up and up air. Yoshi's blind spot is diagonally below him, so approach him from there with your uair and fair. This should make it much easier to beat his egg spam. Also, I'm not sure yet, but I think our invincible utilt can cancel out his eggs. I should probably test this first. But I know that you can use your side B, to aim at the eggs, and cancel them out, giving you 2% per pellet. This removes his best pressure option. You definitely want to be on the defensive in this matchup most of the time. When you do go in, use your galaxian to destroy incoming eggs with its wide loop, and punish yoshi's cool down after throwing the eggs. Never go on without a fruit, and use cherries and strawberries in mid range to stop short hop approaches.
Just be patient, and punish yoshi's mistakes. You can kill yoshi with the bell easier than most characters because of how much yoshi loves to short hop egg approach. The bell outprioritizes the egg, and nails yoshi, giving you a free usmash. Up smashes, throwing hydrants, and gimping with the melon instead of orange (because it beats yoshi's super armor, and moves slowly, forcing yoshi to maneuver around it, giving us more time to fair or nair gimp. If you want another option for kills, you can try to use the side B as a mixup to punish rolls and attack yoshi's in the air while they throw eggs (situational, but possible)
Remember to throw your hydrant at the opponent only sparingly ( or as a defensive tool to protect you from eggs by using the bair ->jab technique)
And NEVER be above yoshi. You don't want to eat an usmash or an uair. If you do end up in the air, only use the hydrant when the yoshi goes for an uair. Don't uae it if they stay on the ground, because they can send it back with an usmash. Instead, use the apple to snipe yoshi on the ground, and get him into the air as you land, so you can turn the tides on him.
Be creative with your limitless tools and be patient. Then you should be able to easily handle both of these characters in the long run.


Edit: just something everyone should know, villager vs pacman games are so fun. It's a battle of mind games. We can fake out the pocket by throwing a hydrant immediately followed by a key, and we destroy villager up close. Don't be too far away though, he'll pester you with fairs and dairs. Although the fruits can out prioritize villager's fair and dair. Keep a cherry and strawberry in hand to use as a sheild.
 
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Paper Maribro

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Alright, we will cover each character individually.

RE: Diddy

Its all well and good saying set this up and set that up but that assumes two things fundamentally. 1) Diddy is just sitting there watching you do stuff and 2) the stage is flat and void of platforms. These set ups work really well in theory on FD but how on Earth is a fast character like Diddy ever gonna just sit there and let you set this stuff up? Answer, he probably isnt unless he wants to lose. Fair enough if you have just KOd him or knocked him off stage and you start setting this up, but this is not something you can do from neutral. If you do, Diddy will just run in and make your life hell. I still dont understand how you expect to do any of this without interruption from Diddy and if you have, then its probably because he is offstage when you should be gimping his poor recovery anyway. Can you please explain where you are supposed to set this up where Diddy cannot punish you for setting it up?

RE: Yoshi

Well, you do raise some good points, however, I am sure Yoshis frame data is in his favour and his CQ game is a lot better and more damaging than ours, plus he lives forever but he has a lot of moves than outright kill us. I am still far from convinced about the fortress because of the same points I made about Diddy, except Yoshi has a fantastic projectile. I will have to let you know how I go next time against my friends Yoshi, I still cant see it as being anything but Yoshis game to lose, but I will get back to you on that one. Most people in the skype Pac group agree that Yoshi is bad for us, many even saying he is our worst MU (myself included).

RE: Villager

I play against a couple, its hard work I have to say. Half the time you are just sitting in shield and the other time one of the characters is being beaten to death. A very volatile MU indeed.
 

meleebrawler

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Did you just ignore the parts about throwing low-level
fruit at Diddy when he's being aggressive?

Trampolines are very quick to set up, and
can be reset or changed position at any time.
The hydrant is the only tricky part of setting up the fortress.
 

Paper Maribro

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Did you just ignore the parts about throwing low-level
fruit at Diddy when he's being aggressive?

Trampolines are very quick to set up, and
can be reset or changed position at any time.
The hydrant is the only tricky part of setting up the fortress.
Fruit isnt the be all, answer to everything people seem to make it out to be. Sure, its versatile, powerful and great at mixing up, but it is far from infallible and prone to not working if you are spamming it. Cherries and strawbs are slow and easily avoided and have large end lag in how long they sit out so kind of hinder Pac against absolute aggression. Orange is great but becomes predictable as soon as your opponent realises that that is all you have time to charge that is even useful. Beyond orange, we are looking at great fruit that take too long to use against an aggressive opponent until you have some semblance of an advantage.

Trampolines are easy to set up but have landing lag, its not something I have ever seen an obvious opportunity to make due to the fact that there is usually too much going on, especially against a fast character like Diddy, to even think about setting up traps or fortresses, let alone actually go through making one. Like I said, this stuff works great in theory, but kind of falls a part in practice unless your opponent just watches you do it for some reason.
 

Nu~

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You could try running off the stage and junping whenever you want to charge a fruit you want. This baits diddy into coming for you and you can end up gimping him this way. Or he doesn't come at all and you get a free charge
 
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Paper Maribro

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You could try running off the stage and junping whenever you want to charge a fruit you want. This baits diddy into coming for you and you can end up gimping him this way. Or he doesn't come at all and you get a free charge
Yeah but how do you get back to the stage safely?

Diddy can cover ledge recovery options really well, I still dont see the point of going off stage to charge fruit against Diddy as he can punish and cover distance incredibly well. I do use it against plenty of other characters with success, but nothing I did seemed to work against the Diddy I played. I played maybe 10 matches against his Diddy on FG and killed him once. It was embarrassing to say the least. The guy completely schooled me because I had been thinking that the matchup was in our favour, playing him taught me otherwise.
 

Nu~

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Yeah but how do you get back to the stage safely?

Diddy can cover ledge recovery options really well, I still dont see the point of going off stage to charge fruit against Diddy as he can punish and cover distance incredibly well. I do use it against plenty of other characters with success, but nothing I did seemed to work against the Diddy I played. I played maybe 10 matches against his Diddy on FG and killed him once. It was embarrassing to say the least. The guy completely schooled me because I had been thinking that the matchup was in our favour, playing him taught me otherwise.
That is incredibly strange. I keep beating diddy on smash ladder though. Diddy's I fight end up losing to constant pressure on the stage and when they're off the stage I gimp them. You just have to get on them and stay on them. Strawberries compromised his banana and grab approaches, and whenever he guessed wrong and shielded, he would get the grab. After I back or up threw him, that's when I would set up the fortress. The most trouble I had was when I was directly above him, or on the ledge. That's when I decided to always Side B over the ledge to return, and air dodge + fastfall the obvious uair.
Maybe we should practice handling aggressive opponents. Because we definitely have the kit for it outside of just BF.

Also, let's refer to this. http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU
Yoshi's frame data on the ground is worse in terms of utilt and dtilt, equal in ftilt, and faster in jab. Also our dtilt has more range than all of yoshi's fastest ground options so I don't see how yoshi has the edge in CQC. Also, our ftilt comes out faster than diddys best ranged options in CQC except for dtilt
 
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MachoCheeze

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So I played a Mii Brawler main last (really chill dude) and I must say I'm not sure how the match up can go. Brawler is super duper fast and can put a lot of pressure on Pac. Trampoline and orange seemed to give him a bit of trouble. I never won a game off of him, but I came close when I took him to Kongo Jungle 64.

Your guys thoughts?
 

Firedemon0

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So I played a Mii Brawler main last (really chill dude) and I must say I'm not sure how the match up can go. Brawler is super duper fast and can put a lot of pressure on Pac. Trampoline and orange seemed to give him a bit of trouble. I never won a game off of him, but I came close when I took him to Kongo Jungle 64.

Your guys thoughts?
Brawler is definitely the best of the 3 Mii's (My favorite of them too). Generally speaking we should be able to effectively escape pressure with trampoline. Brawler also has a large amount of lag on kill moves, excluding Up-B options. They do have the ability to combo out of Down throw, but it is not nearly as drastic as Shiek or Diddy. Brawler is very much able to get in, but the options when they do get in, are pretty limited. Up-air is strong, but it does not beat hydrant. Without the proper specials, recovery is horrible, and easily gimped. Shot put is a weak pressure/zone tool against Pac-man. Jab is poor compared to Pac-man's. It is a fair match up, but definitely in Pac-man's favor.
 

MachoCheeze

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Brawler is definitely the best of the 3 Mii's (My favorite of them too). Generally speaking we should be able to effectively escape pressure with trampoline. Brawler also has a large amount of lag on kill moves, excluding Up-B options. They do have the ability to combo out of Down throw, but it is not nearly as drastic as Shiek or Diddy. Brawler is very much able to get in, but the options when they do get in, are pretty limited. Up-air is strong, but it does not beat hydrant. Without the proper specials, recovery is horrible, and easily gimped. Shot put is a weak pressure/zone tool against Pac-man. Jab is poor compared to Pac-man's. It is a fair match up, but definitely in Pac-man's favor.
Thanks for the input! I'll try to keep that in mind! :)
 

Paper Maribro

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That is incredibly strange. I keep beating diddy on smash ladder though. Diddy's I fight end up losing to constant pressure on the stage and when they're off the stage I gimp them. You just have to get on them and stay on them. Strawberries compromised his banana and grab approaches, and whenever he guessed wrong and shielded, he would get the grab. After I back or up threw him, that's when I would set up the fortress. The most trouble I had was when I was directly above him, or on the ledge. That's when I decided to always Side B over the ledge to return, and air dodge + fastfall the obvious uair.
Maybe we should practice handling aggressive opponents. Because we definitely have the kit for it outside of just BF.

Also, let's refer to this. http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU
Yoshi's frame data on the ground is worse in terms of utilt and dtilt, equal in ftilt, and faster in jab. Also our dtilt has more range than all of yoshi's fastest ground options so I don't see how yoshi has the edge in CQC. Also, our ftilt comes out faster than diddys best ranged options in CQC except for dtilt
I havent really played many good Diddys. The last three I played all beat me badly, possibly due to MU inexperience, possibly because the only diddys I had beaten previously were bad so I had formed bad habits. I will keep all this stuff in mind for the future though thanks.

Yoshis Jab is probably the thing I find most annoying about his CQC. I would say its better than ours, just because he gets a hell of a lot more out of landing hits than we do simply because he is more powerful than us and he kills us much earlier than we can kill him. We simply dont get enough reward for being in close quarters against Yoshi especially when all Yoshi needs to do is just Mash A on the ground to jab you off him.
 
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Firedemon0

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I havent really played many good Diddys. The last three I played all beat me badly, possibly due to MU inexperience, possibly because the only diddys I had beaten previously were bad so I had formed bad habits. I will keep all this stuff in mind for the future though thanks.

Yoshis Jab is probably the thing I find most annoying about his CQC. I would say its better than ours, just because he gets a hell of a lot more out of landing hits than we do simply because he is more powerful than us and he kills us much earlier than we can kill him. We simply dont get enough reward for being in close quarters against Yoshi especially when all Yoshi needs to do is just Mash A on the ground to jab you off him.
Yoshi does have a strong Jab, but he is very susceptible to OOS options. Eggs can be blocked while charging fruit. If they change angle, it is slow enough to cancel with shield and get a few extra charges if they spam. It is not worth it to chase Yoshi off stage, it is however worth it to get above them and rack easy damage with hydrant on recoveries. Most players I have faced, expect an attack at the top of their jump. Use that to your advantage

Fair is easily shield grabbed. Downair does not destroy sheild, and you can OOS nair once its done. Back Air when spaced properly is hard to punish, but it is easy to be patient with it. Dash attack always seems to go behind, so a f-tilt normally is fast enough to catch a poorly used one. Because of Yoshi's weight, and long life. The match becomes poke and prods till you can bait a double jump and side b them on landing. Nair is a very effective move against Yoshi. You can also very safely recover low in comparison to other characters.

Yoshi is much better then previous iterations, but he still has a horrible shield game (Though he can finally jump out of shield). I can seriously recommend playing a few matches on FG with Yoshi to feel how slow his shield is. You will also learn that his roll is horrendous, like Samus level bad. His grab is worse then ours. His egg lay is an ok at best command grab, but it is not nearly as potent as Wario's.

Pac-man has an advantage in the mid range game with Fruit, more strawberries and oranges. Pac-man can also effectively Trampoline a campy Yoshi because of his poor shield options. This is not as bad as of a matchup as it may seem.
 

Paper Maribro

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They do have the priority to be a pain though.
Im not sure you guys understand what Priority is. I know Pacman9 mentioned it erroneously in his MU analysis and there it is again. A move priority is only factored in by what damage it does. If it does more than 9% than the clashing move, the lesser move is completely cancelled and you get hit. If they deal within the 9% then the clash bubble is seen and no damage is taken by either party. Aerial priority is different and as one of the handy tips in the game says, aerial attacks never clash. The priority you are seeing with B Jr.s aerials vs. ours is disjoints. The hitboxes are not attached to the hurtbox, much like Marths sword. As such, the disjoints do not take damage when hit. This is key to why I play a grounded Pac. Although Pacs aerials are incredibly fast and good for combos, they are inherently risky because besides Bair, they have little to no range. Its so risky trying to approach people in the air solely with aerial hitboxes because you dont have the safety of clashing.

Of course, you may have already known this, in which case, this is just a general explanation for my play style and why its so risky to approach aerially on anyone but non-hand to hand combatants like Mario.
 

WeirdChillFever

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Im not sure you guys understand what Priority is. I know Pacman9 mentioned it erroneously in his MU analysis and there it is again. A move priority is only factored in by what damage it does. If it does more than 9% than the clashing move, the lesser move is completely cancelled and you get hit. If they deal within the 9% then the clash bubble is seen and no damage is taken by either party. Aerial priority is different and as one of the handy tips in the game says, aerial attacks never clash. The priority you are seeing with B Jr.s aerials vs. ours is disjoints. The hitboxes are not attached to the hurtbox, much like Marths sword. As such, the disjoints do not take damage when hit. This is key to why I play a grounded Pac. Although Pacs aerials are incredibly fast and good for combos, they are inherently risky because besides Bair, they have little to no range. Its so risky trying to approach people in the air solely with aerial hitboxes because you dont have the safety of clashing.

Of course, you may have already known this, in which case, this is just a general explanation for my play style and why its so risky to approach aerially on anyone but non-hand to hand combatants like Mario.
Got the terms mixed up.
Thank you for your wall of text.
 

BSP

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This is key to why I play a grounded Pac. Although Pacs aerials are incredibly fast and good for combos, they are inherently risky because besides Bair, they have little to no range.
Uair is pretty safe against everything except swords and G&W's key. Otherwise, agreed.

Edit: and even then, I would challenge even swordsmen/woman dairs except Link's, Toon Link's, and maybe Robin's w/ Levin Sword.
 
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Firedemon0

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Any tips on Falcon MU? I personally think at the moment it's in his favor.
Definitely not in his favor. While Falcon has very effective speed, His strongest approach is grab. Trampoline OOS for easy damage when he comes dashing in. He can break hydrant quickly, but not in anyway that puts Pac-man at risk. He is very easy to be gimped by Pac-man. His Up-air does not break Hydrant on the way down like other characters. He is very susceptible to fruit. He is easy to combo. His shield pressure is his grab. Dash attack clanks with most of his moves. His specials are very easy to react to and shield. If you do not spam rolls, it is very hard for Falcon to really get you outside of his grab.

His jab is much faster and more effective then Pac-man's. He is able to spike Pac-man easily if a trampoline is not up. When he does combo, it hurts quite a bit, but Pac-man is just floaty enough to avoid most knee combos, he can also interrupt with hydrant. A smart Falcon player will try to bait out moves with his dash speed/aerial fades before going for the Grab. Do not fall for it.

Overall very much in Pac-man's favor. Except in the taunting game. He has Pac-man beat.
 

Nu~

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Well lets start a new topic. Who are our worst matchups and why?
Because as of right now, I don't see anyone who causes us that much trouble. I struggle to find a matchup worse than 45:55
Maybe Rosalina?
Also, who besides the obvious little Mac, are our best matchups.
 
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Firedemon0

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Well lets start a new topic. Who are our worst matchups and why?
Because as of right now, I don't see anyone who causes us that much trouble. I struggle to find a matchup worse than 45:55
Maybe Rosalina?
The strongest characters against Pac-man in my opinion. Are Rosalina, Sonic, and Fox.

Rosalina has one move that can invalidate all of our special moves, and with effective range larger then pocket or reflector. Luma, when not used as a crutch, makes approaching very difficult. We can only really effectively get after Rosalina when Luma is removed. It was incredibly hard matchup before the nerfs. Her aerials beat all of Pac-man's effectively neutering our offensive game when adding in Gravity Well. She is also relatively hard to gimp. Her one weakness, is that she is incredibly light. So If you can land a well timed Key, she will be ko'ed. I do feel she is as close to a "counter" as Pac-man has.

Sonic may seem like an easy matchup, but a decent sonic does not spindash all the time. You can cancel Spin dash before charging it with Shield. He is fast, really fast, and is able to more effectively weave in between Pac-man's attacks compared to Falcon because of his smaller size. His Nair is very similar to our own, but it has a bigger sourspot. He is able to rack up damage quickly, and we have a very hard time gimping his recovery. His specials have a very large open spot, in that when he does commit, we can hit him with a fruit or lay a trampoline and stop him dead. This is one of the few match ups that we get outclassed in the air, but Pac-man's jab is about equal.

Fox may be a surprise for some, however with his speed and being a fast faller, it is very hard for us to tie down Fox. While not as potent, his ability to stall in air with reflector does a good bit to make him hard to gimp. His dash attack is one of the best in Smash 4 with how fast it can come out. He can very safely and quickly break hydrant, so baiting attacks with it, does not work. He can actually reflect hydrant back in our faces if we come from above. His OOS upsmash equals death for a poorly spaced aerial by Pac-man, and a mistimed throw is also death because of his dash speed. Bair and Nair are very strong attacks. Pac-man is still able to Gimp him, but it has to be predictable, because illusion does not cause special fall. He can very effectively change up his recovery with stalls, and illusion timing.

I would say that the character that completely forces Pac-man into a particular play style is Rosalina. We can only do so much to attack, and the ability to outshine us aerially, and neuter our Specials, leads to a very patient methodical kind of play.
 

Paper Maribro

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Well lets start a new topic. Who are our worst matchups and why?
Because as of right now, I don't see anyone who causes us that much trouble. I struggle to find a matchup worse than 45:55
Maybe Rosalina?
Also, who besides the obvious little Mac, are our best matchups.
I still maintain Yoshi is our worst counter. Rosalina comes in a close second buts its a lot worse than 45:55 to her. She has so many moves that kill Pac super early and the only thing you can really do to her is just constantly drop hydrants on her shield and hope she doesnt start down-bing them or mistimes it so we can get a bair in. I would also argue Villager is tough for us because of Pocket, Lloid spam and the slingshots mean that the match isnt really fluid for us.

Other difficult matchups highlighted in the skype group have been Olimar (Pikmin really screw with Pacs game), Samus (she is super fast so approaching her is risky and staying back is also risky because of missiles and charge shot) and Diddy (Combos us hard).

The thing I have been finding is, so many people have so many varied opinions on Pacs MUs probably because of the respective ways we play him. We all agree he can be played in a variety of ways and I think who we think is tough might somewhat reflect that. For example, Firedemon0 mentioned Fox as one of our top 3 worst MUs. I dont see how really. You mentioned his DA but the thing is, its so slow in endlag even Pac can grab OoS on it. Its true he isnt easy to gimp but he is fairly light so we can kill him with Smash attacks or key.

Legitimately the only matchup that everyone seems to agree is bad for us is Rosalina. I find this very peculiar that nobody else can seem to agree on our good and bad matchups.
 

Nu~

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Well the key to playing pac-man is being versatile and changing up your playstyle corresponding to the matchup.
Also, I have no problems with olimar or Samus because olimar's Pikmin latch onto the fruit giving us a free approach, and samus's charge shot is absorbed by every fruit while missles are cancelled by the pellet.
In the long run, if we learn to be more adaptable, the only unfavorable matchup we'll have is Rosalina because she shuts most of our options. Something no other character can do to us.
 
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Firedemon0

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A good Fox knows to not dash attack on Sheild. It is fast and the knockback makes it safe to use as a punish move. Pac-man does not share the same mobility that fox has, so it limits him in the matchup. Fox is not weakened by trampoline as well because of his fall speed and decent Nair.

I do not have issues with Samus or Olimar. Olimar surprises me as a difficult matchup because Pac-man is able to effectively kill the Pikman with Fruit. Nair works great, though the pikman are very good at countering Aerials. He is not able to really destroy hydrant safely. The key is keeping pressure on his Pikman, and forcing Olimar to need to waste time restocking them. Olimar also has a DHD type of recovery which is easy pickings for Pac-man.
 
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BSP

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At the moment, I think Rosalina > Sonic > Fox > Yoshi in terms of difficulty.

90% of Pac Man's game is shut down by Rosalina's aerials and down B. Our only hope is to go for safe pokes in between her mistakes.

Sonic can get in our face easily and pressure us well. He can run right past dropped hydrants and he can chase us down for trampolining away, or running away in general. He's pretty tough for us.

Yoshi is heavy, does loads of damage, and has eggs to make fruit charging difficult. I do need to experiment with side B vs. eggs though. Still, outdamages us, is mobile, heavy, tough in general.

Fox is similar to Sonic with a little less ground speed, but more vertical mobility, so I think he's tough for similar reasons. Not being able to consistently grab the fast characters is a bit problem too, especially since empty SH will probably become commonplace because of the extra shieldrop lag if nothing strikes your shield.
 
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Nu~

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At the moment, I think Rosalina > Sonic = Yoshi > Fox in terms of difficulty.

I do need to experiment with side B vs. eggs though. Still, outdamages us, is mobile, heavy, tough in general.
Still. With side B, yoshi can't make us approach. With his rather poor approach options in side B, fair, and dair, we can effectively zone him out and not need to worry about his high damage output. Also our aerials and tilts out speed his. You could argue that he has more range in the air, but it won't matter if we get into his face.
I would bring the meteor trampoline and on-fire hydrant to eliminate his options on the ground (that annoying jab) and keep him in the air where we can combo him. This matchup is kind of like we're playing a stun deck in yugioh (sorry, I just had to get a comparison in here lol) we eliminate yoshi's options with our trampoline and hydrant, ruin his already shifty approach with our Side B to crack eggs and fruit (preferably Apple, galaxian, and melon to get him into the air) and then go in when he's vulnerable.
I still don't see how this matchup is hard in the slightest. In theory, and from experience, yoshi is one of the least of our concerns amongst the top ten
 
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BSP

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His Nair is pretty quick, but you've got a point: lame him out.

...yeah, what am I saying? Fox and Sonic are worse for sure, let me edit that. I'm think I'm letting wifi get to me, which is bad because it makes characters with low risk, high reward options seem better than they are and harder to deal with.

Overall, I think our best bet against characters that have massive mobility advantages over us is to lame them out with Hydrants and trampolines and then exploiting their attempts to get in. That's exactly what Abadango does vs Nietono in their Umebura 11 set.

So Sonic, Fox, Sheik, Falcon, Little Mac, Greninja, anyone fast really.

Something to note: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bTN93kgyaw

Abadango doesn't go Pac Man vs. Sheik. Maybe he doesn't think we win the MU?

I think Sheik is even at worst against us. We can negate needles with fruit and hydrants so she has to approach, but I believe our jab is our only move that can consistently compete with hers along with her tilts. Littering the field with trampolines and hydrants are effective at disrupting her approach, but she still has the mobility to get in on us quickly after placing and to put pressure on us.

She does struggle to get that KO though.
 
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