Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[bekindrewind]

Consider using your up and back throw to kill if you can't use your other kill moves. It's riskier, but it works.

Usually if I get at very high percents I end up trying to either apple or back throw near the ledge of the stage. I'd assume up throw kills on high platforms. Problem is like you said, it's riskier because of PAC-MAN's grab.

 

[Nu~]

You don't want to be playing the far range game against characters with reflectors anyway. You play mid range and destroy them if they try to reflect your stuff. How do you think megaman mains destroy reflector characters? They bait the reflector and punish hard. It is only good for preventing far range camping. Something we shouldn't be doing in the first place
And the side B is a great move to punish recoveries, landings, and rolls. To kill with it, you have to trap the opponent first, or get them while they're vulnerable (off the stage)

 

[Pacack]

Usually if I get at very high percents I end up trying to either apple or back throw near the ledge of the stage. I'd assume up throw kills on high platforms. Problem is like you said, it's riskier because of PAC-MAN's grab.

Learning to use Pac-Man's grab is essential to the character. It is a very unique grab that, when used properly, can be used to punish read rolls and spotdodges. If you can learn to do that, your entire game will improve. Go to the lab and learn where your grab boxes are, when they stop and the like, and learn where they kill.

 

[Nu~]

Learning to use Pac-Man's grab is essential to the character. It is a very unique grab that, when used properly, can be used to punish read rolls and spotdodges. If you can learn to do that, your entire game will improve. Go to the lab and learn where your grab boxes are, when they stop and the like, and learn where they kill.

So true. We will become extremely dangerous when we learn how to work the beam

 

[Pacack]

So true. We will become extremely dangerous when we learn how to work the beam

They will learn to fear our abductions.

 

[bekindrewind]

You don't want to be playing the far range game against characters with reflectors anyway. You play mid range and destroy them if they try to reflect your stuff. How do you think megaman mains destroy reflector characters? They bait the reflector and punish hard. It is only good for preventing far range camping. Something we shouldn't be doing in the first place
And the side B is a great move to punish recoveries, landings, and rolls. To kill with it, you have to trap the opponent first, or get them while they're vulnerable (off the stage)

Hmmm, how would you think of devising a mid range game for PAC-MAN? I would begin by saying throwing cherries and strawberries constantly for pressure and pelting damage. PAC-MAN's aerials you need to sort of go in to reach but pull out quickly so you don't get punished. His dtilt has a good amount of range too. It's pretty quick too.

Learning to use Pac-Man's grab is essential to the character. It is a very unique grab that, when used properly, can be used to punish read rolls and spotdodges. If you can learn to do that, your entire game will improve. Go to the lab and learn where your grab boxes are, when they stop and the like, and learn where they kill.

PAC-MAN's grab is in a category of it's own. The beam only works when it's coming out, and only about 2/3's of it is a grab box. It's advantages are good in the sense it gives PAC-MAN an extension physically because of the sometimes-beneficial reach. Not to mention his grabs such as his down throw give a generous 11% and can even set up into a dash attack/Uair/fair-nair combo or a side B chase. However, you seriously cannot overuse it as your opponent can catch on to your patterns and just in general you can get severely punished. I don't like using his grab in higher percents because missing a grab can sometimes give a character that free smash that can win them the game.

 

[Pacack]

Hmmm, how would you think of devising a mid range game for PAC-MAN? I would begin by saying throwing cherries and strawberries constantly for pressure and pelting damage. PAC-MAN's aerials you need to sort of go in to reach but pull out quickly so you don't get punished. His dtilt has a good amount of range too. It's pretty quick too.



PAC-MAN's grab is in a category of it's own. The beam only works when it's coming out, and only about 2/3's of it is a grab box. It's advantages are good in the sense it gives PAC-MAN an extension physically because of the sometimes-beneficial reach. Not to mention his grabs such as his down throw give a generous 11% and can even set up into a dash attack/Uair/fair-nair combo or a side B chase. However, you seriously cannot overuse it as your opponent can catch on to your patterns and just in general you can get severely punished. I don't like using his grab in higher percents because missing a grab can sometimes give a character that free smash that can win them the game.

No, you cannot abuse it. As such, I'd argue that keeping the unpredictability of the grab is worth more than the 11% you get from the down throw. It can still be used occasionally, but not a lot, because opponents will learn when you use it.

 

[Nu~]

Hmmm, how would you think of devising a mid range game for PAC-MAN? I would begin by saying throwing cherries and strawberries constantly for pressure and pelting damage. PAC-MAN's aerials you need to sort of go in to reach but pull out quickly so you don't get punished. His dtilt has a good amount of range too. It's pretty quick too.

You're definitely on the right track. But I would definitely add in some apples and galaxians. Apples are perfect for launching the opponent into the air, ready to be punished. The Galaxian is probably the best item in the game to set up combos with because it traps the opponent, and all you have to do is keep following up with fairs and uairs to rack up the damage. Even better is the fact that it travels through other projectiles that may be used in mid range like megaman's pellets and metal blades.
The melon is perfect for setting up approaches because you can throw it and then run up behind it ao that it acts as a sheild from projectiles and attacks because it rips through both. The opponent will either jump or sheild, and both can be punished. The bell and key are for kills (the bell can potentially earn you the kill earlier because of the massive hitstun that leads to an up smash or fsmash) and the orange is hilariously good for gimping and keeping the opponent away because of its amazing horizontal knockback

 

[bekindrewind]

You're definitely on the right track. But I would definitely add in some apples and galaxians. Apples are perfect for launching the opponent into the air, ready to be punished. The Galaxian is probably the best item in the game to set up combos with because it traps the opponent, and all you have to do is keep following up with fairs and uairs to rack up the damage. Even better is the fact that it travels through other projectiles that may be used in mid range like megaman's pellets and metal blades.
The melon is perfect for setting up approaches because you can throw it and then run up behind it ao that it acts as a sheild from projectiles and attacks because it rips through both. The opponent will either jump or sheild, and both can be punished. The bell and key are for kills (the bell can potentially earn you the kill earlier because of the massive hitstun that leads to an up smash or fsmash) and the orange is hilariously good for gimping and keeping the opponent away because of its amazing horizontal knockback

Against a character who uses the reflector as a response to every fruit we throw, i.e. a Fox or Falco, is the reason I didn't say any of our stronger fruits. A melon is incredibly easy to reflect, and the Galaxian flies incredibly far even after we throw it and it is reflected. The thing with the Galaxian and Mega Man's blades and pellets, is I believe the Galaxian still flies, but the hitbox disappears. This has also happened to me with throwing a key through ROB's gyro. For Fox and Falco I need to mostly reply on my aerial rushdown game because it's one of my fastest options and they can't reflect things I throw back at them. I said cherries and strawberries because of the fact that they are easy to chuck and the fact that if I get it reflected at me I won't be punished as bad as say an apple or melon.

I feel because of the up-close combat the bell could be useful. If you're right up next to the opponent we can throw the bell and they get affected by the stun, then get a free Inky. Once again, it needs to be used sparingly because the bell takes practically the same amount of time to charge as the key.

 

[Firedemon0]

Against a character who uses the reflector as a response to every fruit we throw, i.e. a Fox or Falco, is the reason I didn't say any of our stronger fruits. A melon is incredibly easy to reflect, and the Galaxian flies incredibly far even after we throw it and it is reflected. The thing with the Galaxian and Mega Man's blades and pellets, is I believe the Galaxian still flies, but the hitbox disappears. This has also happened to me with throwing a key through ROB's gyro. For Fox and Falco I need to mostly reply on my aerial rushdown game because it's one of my fastest options and they can't reflect things I throw back at them. I said cherries and strawberries because of the fact that they are easy to chuck and the fact that if I get it reflected at me I won't be punished as bad as say an apple or melon.

I feel because of the up-close combat the bell could be useful. If you're right up next to the opponent we can throw the bell and they get affected by the stun, then get a free Inky. Once again, it needs to be used sparingly because the bell takes practically the same amount of time to charge as the key.

I'm not sure how you are using fruit, but if you are having issues with reflectors. It sounds like you may be throwing them too much. Fox and Falco are stupid easy to orange gimp. The only anti-projectile that is a threat is rosalina's. That is because she can use it on all of Pac's specials and grab fruit to throw back at us. Villager is another, he can use hydrant against us. Fox and Falco's are not nearly as effective as they were previously. In higher level play, Fox only really uses it to mid-air stall.

What situations are you getting caught by them?

 

[Paper Maribro]

When playing a character with a reflector, use Pacs rushdown game more and the projectiles as more of a mixup. Dont let them feel comfortable because it sounds like you might be being too predictable with your fruit usage and hydrant tossing if they are consistently reflecting them back at you. I also agree with being in the midrange.

Side-b to punish their recovery is also gonna be useful. Fox and Falco are both light with fairly predictable recoveries and Side-b has pretty great knockback.

 

[Nu~]

Against a character who uses the reflector as a response to every fruit we throw, i.e. a Fox or Falco, is the reason I didn't say any of our stronger fruits. A melon is incredibly easy to reflect, and the Galaxian flies incredibly far even after we throw it and it is reflected. The thing with the Galaxian and Mega Man's blades and pellets, is I believe the Galaxian still flies, but the hitbox disappears. This has also happened to me with throwing a key through ROB's gyro. For Fox and Falco I need to mostly reply on my aerial rushdown game because it's one of my fastest options and they can't reflect things I throw back at them. I said cherries and strawberries because of the fact that they are easy to chuck and the fact that if I get it reflected at me I won't be punished as bad as say an apple or melon.

I feel because of the up-close combat the bell could be useful. If you're right up next to the opponent we can throw the bell and they get affected by the stun, then get a free Inky. Once again, it needs to be used sparingly because the bell takes practically the same amount of time to charge as the key.

Which is exactly what you want them to do. Let them reflect the incoming melon or galaxian, and then punish their cooldown.
I say the galaxian is awesome at mid range because we either land it and shred the opponent, or it gets reflected and we punish. But it normally won't get reflected at mid range because the opponent won't be using it when they are that close to you. you should be using it as a cross up instead of just freely throwing it out. Try a jab combo into galaxian

 

[bekindrewind]

I'm not sure how you are using fruit, but if you are having issues with reflectors. It sounds like you may be throwing them too much. Fox and Falco are stupid easy to orange gimp. The only anti-projectile that is a threat is rosalina's. That is because she can use it on all of Pac's specials. Villager is another. Fox and Falco's are not nearly as effective as they were previously. In higher level play, Fox only really uses it to mid-air stall.

What situations are you getting caught by them?

Against Fox and Falco I hardly use them. Once I throw any fruit they immediately just start spamming down B. Same with the hydrant. Falco's is even worse because it goes so far in front of him.

Which is exactly what you want them to do. Let them reflect the incoming melon or galaxian, and then punish their cooldown.
I say the galaxian is awesome at mid range because we either land it and shred the opponent, or it gets reflected and we punish. But it normally won't get reflected at mid range because the opponent won't be using it when they are that close to you. you should be using it as a cross up instead of just freely throwing it out. Try a jab combo into galaxian

So when the melon or galaxian gets reflected back at me and i'm going in, how would I dodge it? roll? jump? I can't shield it because it'd give them time to recover.

 

[Nu~]

Against Fox and Falco I hardly use them. Once I throw any fruit they immediately just start spamming down B. Same with the hydrant. Falco's is even worse because it goes so far in front of him.



So when the melon or galaxian gets reflected back at me and i'm going in, how would I dodge it? roll? jump? I can't shield it because it'd give them time to recover.

If they reflect the melon, jump because it's a straight trajectory. If they reflect the galaxian, roll behind them

 

[Paper Maribro]

Against Fox and Falco I hardly use them. Once I throw any fruit they immediately just start spamming down B. Same with the hydrant. Falco's is even worse because it goes so far in front of him.

Spamming down b if you throw one fruit? Sounds like you should try punishing that. It is far from an unpunishable move if they are just throwing it out at random because you used one projectile.

 

[bekindrewind]

If they reflect the melon, jump because it's a straight trajectory. If they reflect the galaxian, roll behind them

Would you recommend I use the hydrant kick against them? I don't mean as a strategy, but just as an option.

Spamming down b if you throw one fruit? Sounds like you should try punishing that. It is far from an unpunishable move if they are just throwing it out at random because you used one projectile.

I throw a fruit or hydrant at them, they down b constantly. I always get hit by Falco's and it causes me to slip. Sometimes when I get a key they just crouch so they can get half the input for the reflector in...

 

[Paper Maribro]

Would you recommend I use the hydrant kick against them? I don't mean as a strategy, but just as an option.


I throw a fruit or hydrant at them, they down b constantly. I always get hit by Falco's and it causes me to slip. Sometimes when I get a key they just crouch so they can get half the input for the reflector in...

As soon as they start crouching, rush them down or bait them by weaving in an out. If they throw it out and miss, key them in the face. I have played Falcos that do this, you just have to punish the whiffs. Forward throw into a short hop key is also a killer at higher perents, but if they like to airdodge, be careful as you may end up wasting it.

As for being hit by the reflector itself, hit the lab and learn to space yourself more effectively so you can punish them throwing out the move.

 

[Nu~]

Would you recommend I use the hydrant kick against them? I don't mean as a strategy, but just as an option.

Throwing the hydrant at them is even better. Bait and punish for dayz. No good fox or falco should be sitting on downB lest they want to get destroyed by hard punishes

 

[bekindrewind]

As soon as they start crouching, rush them down or bait them by weaving in an out. If they throw it out and miss, key them in the face. I have played Falcos that do this, you just have to punish the whiffs. Forward throw into a short hop key is also a killer at higher perents, but if they like to airdodge, be careful as you may end up wasting it.

As for being hit by the reflector itself, hit the lab and learn to space yourself more effectively so you can punish them throwing out the move.

By the "lab" do you mean training mode? Sorry...

 

[Paper Maribro]

By the "lab" do you mean training mode? Sorry...

Nah man its alright, there are a lot of weird things in the Smash dictionary, I am sure I dont know many of them.

Lab is just any kind of practice. Training mode counts, but if you are with a friend and want to practice something and are explicitly playing so that you can learn something, that counts too. It pretty much just refers to learning your character/ATs/whatever else needs to be learnt by practice. Doesnt matter where.

 

[bekindrewind]

Nah man its alright, there are a lot of weird things in the Smash dictionary, I am sure I dont know many of them.

Lab is just any kind of practice. Training mode counts, but if you are with a friend and want to practice something and are explicitly playing so that you can learn something, that counts too. It pretty much just refers to learning your character/ATs/whatever else needs to be learnt by practice. Doesnt matter where.

I'm really trying to come onto Smashboards more to contribute to my fellow Pac-Mains, so I'm not certain on the terminology yet. I don't have anyone else I play with who likes PAC-MAN like I do, but that doesn't matter unless I'm practicing ditto matchups, I guess.

Throwing the hydrant at them is even better. Bait and punish for dayz. No good fox or falco should be sitting on downB lest they want to get destroyed by hard punishes

If I launch the hydrant and immediately start coming in to them would the hydrant even hit me? I'd think it'd arc right over me,

 

[Paper Maribro]

I'm really trying to come onto Smashboards more to contribute to my fellow Pac-Mains, so I'm not certain on the terminology yet. I don't have anyone else I play with who likes PAC-MAN like I do, but that doesn't matter unless I'm practicing ditto matchups, I guess.

http://smashboards.com/threads/pac-main-the-pac-man-locator-thread.372655/ maybe try adding people there man, if you want to practice dittos its useful and everyone has secondaries if you want to practice specific matchups so it is worth a shot.

 

[bekindrewind]

http://smashboards.com/threads/pac-main-the-pac-man-locator-thread.372655/ maybe try adding people there man, if you want to practice dittos its useful and everyone has secondaries if you want to practice specific matchups so it is worth a shot.

Cool beans. Seems like it hasn't been updated for the Wii U version, though.

By the way, enjoy a wonderful remix of one of the many shafted themes that should've been in the best stage, PAC-LAND.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EmE2ASZPhs&spfreload=10

 

[BSP]

Just a tidbit about Fox: I am 99% he can do any Out Of Shield (OOS) option with his reflector when he actually reflects something, so don't throw/launch anything and expect to punish any lag.

I still think Pacman's potential lies in trapping opponents and utilizing his versatility to switch between zoning and rush down. He's an extremely unpredictable character.
What's really bumming me out is how many people are still sleeping on him
I mean, do people really think he isn't high tier?
Guess they'll learn soon enough

When I can practice consistently, I'm going to master his tilts, aerials, and smashes so I feel better in CQC. I'm probably sleeping on that aspect of his game tbh.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Down Tilt is awesome for CQC, so is Nair.

Down Tilt sends you forward, so you can punish Smashes with small range with just Down Tilt.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

As of late, I've been thinking that 's greatest potential is as a camping character that doesn't approach unless he absolutely has to, or he is facing an opponent that can out camp him.

I'm sure it didn't take you guys long to figure out how effective:

[..............trampoline.............hydrant..........................]

is as a stage control setup once you get the lead, and it only gets worse once you throw platforms into the mix. Seriously, nobody can get around this setup safely, except maybe . The trampoline stops them from quickly smashing the hydrant away, and if they short hop, they're going to be stopped by the hydrant, which you can then proceed to throw something at them or read a launch by them and side B into them.

Now, just imagine that for every single time they committed to crossing your hydrant by full hopping, you:

1: roll towards your trampoline once they've landed and bounce to the other side of the stage. If they try to chase you, they have to waste time launching the hydrant or jumping over it. If you have practiced sufficiently to know where to land so that if they Fsmash your hydrant at you, you won't get hit by it, this is safe. Then, you set up another trampoline and wait for them to try again, respawning your hydrant once you can.

2: Jump at them and Bair/Uair/Fair and reset the situation,except with them having more % now.

3:Shield and grab, or unshield and use tilts/jab to hit them.

4: Assuming you've already Bair'd your hydrant, you Ftilt launch it them as soon as they jump, forcing an AD, and then you punish the lag.

5:Shield and Up B OOS if they land on top of you

How is anyone going to deal with mixing up those options? Throw in some random rush down between your running away and you've got a pretty unpredictable character that can control the pace of the match.

Edit: nvm, don't think you can.

Pretty cool and interesting.

 

[Nu~]

Discuss

I'll risk saying it; Pac-Man is awful. Customs on helps him since he gets some really good options (On-Fire Hydrant is ridiculous!), but he's still a low tier character from where I'm sitting either way (customs is just a question of whether low tier has viability, not of whether he's in it). He's just so unsafe as a character, and he lacks solid goto options or really anything oppressive to do to assert his dominance. He's not even really a power character; for how unsafe so much of his stuff is, he should probably hit as hard as Bowser, but he doesn't. I also foresee him getting worse as the metagame advances; if he ever got to be a real threat in the metagame, people would just practice catching his fruit, and that would be a really big problem for him since it's not like he has any kind of a real rushdown game (unsafe attacks AND the worst grab in the game, great combo) so if you as a player had no fear at all of camping him I dunno what he would do.

The thing with Hydrant is that once it's down it in theory doesn't do more for Pac-Man than for his opponent; water pushes both sides around indiscriminately, and both sides can take advantage of those situations. Now, he can choose when and where to deploy it and it is really disruptive on the match which if he had a really good camp game I'd see a vision of him working (disrupt everything to make his camp game super hard to deal with), but his projectile is catchable and generally a pretty telegraphed move which to me would seem to really kill the point. Like if it's Pac-Man vs Villager, Villager is up a stock, and Villager's gameplan is to hide behind the tree/run away as it suits him and shoot slingshot bullets all day until time runs out, what does Pac do? How does Pac-Man force the issue and make himself a problem? I mean, Pac can mess with the opponent's mobility options a lot which is nice, but everything he does also messes with his own options and it's not clear how he can transition a disrupted stage into a winning game state for himself since if the opponent doesn't care if the match is slow and boring it doesn't seem like it helps Pac-Man to make it that way even if he can do so easily.

[/quote ]

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I actually like Trap Pac more, using the same set up, but with Pac actively trying to get the opponent into a trap with his fruit and aerials (and dat Dash Attack)

Discuss

Bonus Fruit.
While Hydrant is indeed meh and aerials aren't the safest thing on earth (aside from Nair, he can pretty much rack up damage from all sides and in all forms in Bonus Fruit.

Pac ain't low tier with 8 x 3 projectiles in one Special + Customs alone.

 

[Paper Maribro]

He's just so unsafe as a character

A dash attack that basically cancels into Ftilt, one of the quickest fairs in the game, a decent projectile game, powerful, somewhat lingering and disjointed smashes, stage control, an okay combo game, almost broken recovery, decent damage output and a very solid aerial game outside of fair.

I dont understand how he is unsafe at all

people would just practice catching his fruit

The usefulness of Bonus Fruit comes from its versatility and somewhat unpredictability. If you are throwing out the same fruit time and time again, you deserve to be punished. I do not understand how someone, in a pressure situation, could catch every single one of Pac's fruits if he uses them in the way in which they should be used.

it's not like he has any kind of a real rushdown game

Short hop double fair and dash attack are great moves. DA can even lead into fair and nair if they are low enough on percent. He also does not necessarily need to approach. Characters that lack projectiles are going to have to approach Pac eventually and when they do, you can start using all of his traps.

I somewhat agree that heavy projectile characters such as Villager will give Pac trouble, however, once he gets in, then the tides will turn as he can take much greater control of the stage than Villager can (seriously, just attack the tree and that can cause all kinds of problems for them).

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I forgot to mention Pac's solid ground game with Jab, FTilt, Dash Attack and DTilt all ranging from good to glorious.

EDIT: His Smashes are far from unsafe.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I forgot to mention Pac's solid ground game with Jab, FTilt, Dash Attack and DTilt all ranging from good to glorious.

EDIT: His Smashes are far from unsafe.

They are laggy and risky but great for punishing rolls with their range, disjointed nature, lingering hitbox and power (something I abuse far too much, I will admit haha).

This guy seems to be looking at Pac far too one-dimensionally. In the second post he said in theory, which is exactly what it is. In practice is something completely different. Especially with someone as fundamentally unpredictable as Pac.

I even forgot to mention Pac's edgeguarding, which, with oranges, apples, side-b, bairs and nairs, is exemplary.

Someone should seek to 1v1 this guy and show him just what a good Pac can do!

 

[bekindrewind]

With PAC-MAN's combination of being floaty and lots of recovery options, I feel he has a very good edgeguarding game when people try to recover. However, I'd love to know where to begin. I would think side-b off the stage for a start, so then you still have your second jump to move back to the stage.

Please please share your ideas and techniques!

 

[bekindrewind]

Discuss

I understand exactly where this guy is coming from and at times I genuinely agree with what he claims. I said before once the metagame keeps developing people are going to find ways to counter PAC-MAN's tricks more and more. The thing with catching the fruit every single time comes down to having a very very predictable strategy. If PAC-MAN just had the orange as the only fruit he could throw, he would have a problem. But he has 8 different projectiles. It screams unpredictability and craziness. I never ever rely on one fruit. Ever. Each of the fruits are so useful in their own ways.

I can't agree entirely with his attacks being unsafe, he's able to poke with his fair and can throw 2 aerials in a shorthop. His smashes are very very risky, but at the same time when you learn to space with Blinky he can become a very powerful tool. I think with PAC-MAN being a little more sluggish than I expected he'd get a little oomph in his attacks. At times I get frustrated because I just can't get the opponent off the stage and I just keep racking up damage instead. By that time I'm on my last stock while my opponent has almost twice as much damage as he should've had to have had when I could kill him. It's almost like I have to take an extra stock off or something.

Dash attack is useful but can be punished since you're vulnerable while you're chomping along. You can even get shield grabbed out of it which is a nightmare.

 

[BSP]

Guys, I can't believe I just realized that we can use our own fruits to give ourselves a substitute for our grab being terrible for shieldgrabbing well spaced aerials.

We need to get good at key catching. You can't BF directly OOS, but you can definitely throw something from your hand OOS.

God, there's so much we need to experiment with.

So if you're shielding and you have ____ in hand:

Cherry - someone hits your shield, throw it for however much cherry does, possible regrab/combos?
Strawberry - someone hits your shield, throw it for 4%, possible regrab?
Orange - someone hits your shield, throw it for 8%, possible regrab?
Apple - " " " ", throw for 9%, possibly regrab?
Melon- don't know if Melon will be fast enough for this, but it should be an amazing trap.
Galaxian - throw it OOS for 9% with combo potential or an easy recatch
Bell - if they mispace so that bell could hit, you could've just grabbed, but hey, still might be useful
Key - LOL

This...might solve the issue. Galaxian/Orange/Key in hand make so many problems just disappear.

Potential major downsides:

Pac-Man can't grab OOS if he's holding something in hand:

Spoiler

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

It takes time to set all of this up.

Haha...

Remember that all aerials can still be done even if something is in hand. Just zdrop -> aerial and you'll probably catch it again.

 

[Nu~]

Guys, I can't believe I just realized that we can use our own fruits to give ourselves a substitute for our grab being terrible for shieldgrabbing well spaced aerials.

We need to get good at key catching. You can't BF directly OOS, but you can definitely throw something from your hand OOS.

God, there's so much we need to experiment with.

So if you're shielding and you have ____ in hand:

Cherry - someone hits your shield, throw it for however much cherry does, possible regrab/combos?
Strawberry - someone hits your shield, throw it for 4%, possible regrab?
Orange - someone hits your shield, throw it for 8%, possible regrab?
Apple - " " " ", throw for 9%, possibly regrab?
Melon- don't know if Melon will be fast enough for this, but it should be an amazing trap.
Galaxian - throw it OOS for 9% with combo potential or an easy recatch
Bell - if they mispace so that bell could hit, you could've just grabbed, but hey, still might be useful
Key - LOL

This...might solve the issue. Galaxian/Orange/Key in hand make so many problems just disappear.

Potential major downsides:

Pac-Man can't grab OOS if he's holding something in hand:

Spoiler

http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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

It takes time to set all of this up.

Haha...

Remember that all aerials can still be done even if something is in hand. Just zdrop -> aerial and you'll probably catch it again.

If you throw the key at the side of the stage, it'll bounce back and you can catch it
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZP8AuCyBA

I knew this would be amazing for set ups and z drop combos, but I completely forgot how well this can patch up his grab problems

Pac-Man for S Rank troll/fun/amazing character

 

[bekindrewind]

If you throw the key at the side of the stage, it'll bounce back and you can catch it
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZP8AuCyBA

I knew this would be amazing for set ups and z drop combos, but I completely forgot how well this can patch up his grab problems

Pac-Man for S Rank troll/fun/amazing character

What exactly does this do for his grab problems? The z dropping though... And how in the world am I able to do that lol..

 

[BSP]

What exactly does this do for his grab problems? The z dropping though... And how in the world am I able to do that lol..

I'm sure you have noticed that, by properly spacing aerials, many characters can pressure pac man's shield safely because his grab beam is slow.

If you have an item in your hand, like a galaxian, orange, or key, instead of trying to grab them for hitting your shield, you can jump out of shield and cancel the jump with an item toss. This is called a jump cancelled item toss. Or JCIT.

This will let you throw fruit out of your hand from out of shield, letting you punish aerials and moves that Pac Man's grab can't. And unlike jumping and throwing BF from hammer space, you stay grounded, hit your target, and you don't have to go through jump squat frames, which may make a difference in whether or not you get the punish.

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUNqCO5dcE8

This is brawl, but the concept is the same. At 3:24, notice how Salem immediately goes from shielding to throwing ZSS' armor piece at Marth. This helps to mitigate her bad grab in Brawl. Pac-Man can do the same thing, except his Fruit can be respawned.

Look at 8:24 too. The fair wasn't spaced, but even if it was, JCT would've been fast enough to punish it, while her grab would be too slow and a lot riskier. All other options like tilts and such mean waiting out shield drop frames or jump squat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgOs_EJBlh4 - another example with Snake from Brawl. It will give Pac Man a significantly better OOS game.

 

[Firedemon0]

Just a tidbit about Fox: I am 99% he can do any Out Of Shield (OOS) option with his reflector when he actually reflects something, so don't throw/launch anything and expect to punish any lag.



When I can practice consistently, I'm going to master his tilts, aerials, and smashes so I feel better in CQC. I'm probably sleeping on that aspect of his game tbh.

In Melee Fox can, hence multishines. The biggest link I can recommend on the subject is http://www.ssbwiki.com/Reflector it covers the basics. Waveshining
In every other version, he is unable to jump out of his reflector limiting its options (yes he is yet another secondary) Out of shield options are things you can jump cancel into. It is frame advantage to jump cancel shield as it is faster then just letting go.

 

[bekindrewind]

Playing FG today trying out some new techs with PAC-MAN (83% rate with just him yay!) and there are a few basic but ideal things to keep in the back of your mind:

A really cool mindgame I did was have a hydrant bair'd and then jab so it moves slow. trap the opponent so that they are inbetween you and the rolling hydrant. If you put out your beam, they back roll and hit themselves into the hydrant! If they are landing in front of you from above and have a hydrant try and make it idle by bair'ing then jabbing. They might end up landing into it or get scared and land in a position they didn't want to! Punish!

Very basic idea but with the concept of z-dropping being in the craze right now I thought i'd mention this: if any of our fruit is reflected, remember you can pick it up. Imagine it being another PAC-MAN throwing a fruit at you, except this time they are forced to throw it in a more likely predictable and ignorant way. If you catch this fruit utilize it by getting some z-drop game in there! Also, using the apple in CQC might be an option. If they block the apple you can immediately attempt to pick it up after the block. This can be useful if it's a tense end of the match and you're trying to land a kill with the apple (Rosalina repellent).

Also, with a key in hand, z-drop and immediately after plant a hydrant. Instant hydrant launching!

Last thing: throwing a bell at low percents can be helpful for a grab! Down throw to dash is a 20% combo plus the bell deals 8% on its own!

 

[BSP]

In Melee Fox can, hence multishines. The biggest link I can recommend on the subject is http://www.ssbwiki.com/Reflector it covers the basics. Waveshining
In every other version, he is unable to jump out of his reflector limiting its options (yes he is yet another secondary) Out of shield options are things you can jump cancel into. It is frame advantage to jump cancel shield as it is faster then just letting go.

Just a tidbit about Fox: I am 99% he can do any Out Of Shield (OOS) option with his reflector when he actually reflects something, so don't throw/launch anything and expect to punish any lag.
.

http://smashboards.com/threads/uzis-fox-101-a-fox-guide.228287/

Shine is still an amazing move, learn to utilize it. It can be jump/rolld dodge/spotdodge canceld when it reflects a projectile/item.

Smash 4 could've changed this, but I doubt it.