Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[BSP]

Advice on Yoshi?

He can fearlessly jump and do pretty much whatever he wants. I find it tough to create any space to charge or anything.

 

[dragontamer]

Just know that short-hop fair is a safe poke option only if the opponent is static (and only if properly spaced / DIed). You can force them to be static with Melon, but without the Melon its somewhat unsafe to them short-hopping at you.

I still think Pacman has the advantage when he's above the opponent: Fair has an extremely good hitbox despite its poor damage. But it can be punished at high level play. So don't spam it like its a silver bullet.

 

[dragontamer]

Advice on Yoshi?

He can fearlessly jump and do pretty much whatever he wants. I find it tough to create any space to charge or anything.

Get above Yoshi. If Yoshi short-hops, you full hop. I'm experimenting with up-tilt, and it seems to beat out Yoshi's down-air (o.O) when I time it right. I'm still learning the matchup however, and this is definitely in Yoshi's favor.

You have to play rushdown vs Yoshi. Yoshi's eggs are superior to your fruit as a long-range poke. Yoshi's aerials are great, but his diagonal-up is the closest thing to a blind spot (only protected by his egg throw).

Approach from diagonally above him, always. Your Fair will beat his nair and up-tilt with proper positioning. Approach on the ground when he uses Eggs to stop your short-hop diagonal approach. If he short-hops, you have to full-hop to stay above him. You don't want to get caught in the 30% down-air of pain.

 

[Firedemon0]

Advice on Yoshi?

He can fearlessly jump and do pretty much whatever he wants. I find it tough to create any space to charge or anything.

Yoshi is a tougher matchup for Pac-man, but N-air is a good priority attack against his aerials. Fair, doesn't flinch enough to get around double jump's armor. While he is very quick in the air, you have great mobility as well, and should try to bait out air attacks and retaliate with fair nair or hydrant.

 

[Nu~]

Not perfect strat man, some R&L players have cottoned on to this and wont use Luma Shot at all. Makes approaching nigh on impossible.

It was mostly just trolling anyway lol.
Hmmm. Now that Rosalina users are doing this, the matchup may be harder....
I think the water momentum fruit technique I discovered may be key in this matchup. It takes a while to set up, but rosalina's down B may make it easier.
Bait the gravitational pull with your fruit, pick up the fruit that was pulled down by rosalina, and then set up the technique. The fruit flies even faster than the key when you do this, so the opponent can't react in time. Just thought that this may be a good way to get our fruit pressure in regardless of her down B

 

[DrakeRowan]

The key to the Rosalina Matchup is close-range Fair/Ftilt pressure. Fair should be used to hit confirm into appropriate followups, and Ftilt should be used for spacing/pressure. Do not put yourself in a position where Rosa can Jab her way out of pressure. Bait her Gravitational Pull with Fruit/Hydrant and go on the offensive. Avoid grabbing Rosa if Luma is near. If Rosa is grabbed and Luma is near, then immediately throw Rosa up or forward so Luma won't knock Rosa out of the throw.

Against Yoshi, always assume he'll Nair/Jab out of any potential strings/combos you throw at him. Poke him with Fair/Nair/Ftilt (or w/e) then space. Fruit and Hydrant are key in this matchup as both are really efficient poking tools. Be VERY attentive of Yoshi's Dash Attack as he may end up behind you after he uses it. Do not attempt to shield grab his Nair, he'll Jab before PacMan even get's the grab hitbox out. If you're desperate to punish a shielded Nair from Yoshi, then use Jab; otherwise, just roll away from him so his Jab pressure doesn't get to you. Also be attentive if Yoshi is falling the other way, away from PacMan. Better Yoshi's will attempt to BReverse his NeutralB, so watch it.

 

[dragontamer]

Bait her Gravitational Pull with Fruit/Hydrant and go on the offensive.

That should read Bait her Gravitational Pull with Hydrant, never with fruit. Fruit can be "caught" with Gravitational Pull. (Down-B -> A to catch), and then tossed back at your face.

Hydrant is great because when Rosalina makes the Hydrant disappear, it almost instantly refreshes your down-b. Hydrant almost becomes spammable as Rosalina's Gravitational Pull greatly reduces its cooldown.

 

[Gamingboy]

I'm normally a Pikachu main, but I'm liking the fun of Pac-Man. Kind of similar, but more of a close-in brawler. There's something oddly satisfying about the wakka-wakka going into an opponent and sending them flying.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I played against a Megaman that, on a previous occasion, had absolutely destroyed me. I scraped home a couple of games. Today I tipped the scales! We played for a fair while and he only won one game because I stuffed up my recovery on Rainbow Road FD (got stuck under the stage).

I saved the replay of the first match where I totally destroyed him. Nailed a 3-stock in under 3 minutes. I can video it with my phone and upload it if anyone would like to see. I also remember someone mentioning Orange gimping (might have been in the other Pac thread), which I actually did in this match.

 

[Firedemon0]

I played against a Megaman that, on a previous occasion, had absolutely destroyed me. I scraped home a couple of games. Today I tipped the scales! We played for a fair while and he only won one game because I stuffed up my recovery on Rainbow Road FD (got stuck under the stage).

I saved the replay of the first match where I totally destroyed him. Nailed a 3-stock in under 3 minutes. I can video it with my phone and upload it if anyone would like to see. I also remember someone mentioning Orange gimping (might have been in the other Pac thread), which I actually did in this match.

Good job! Pac is very good at weaving into strategies because of how fluid he is. When other players see his move set, they feel he is clunky which is so much further from the truth. When I lose, I have yet to feel it was a limitation of the character and rather my own skill level. He can fill so many possible play styles its crazy.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Good job! Pac is very good at weaving into strategies because of how fluid he is. When other players see his move set, they feel he is clunky which is so much further from the truth. When I lose, I have yet to feel it was a limitation of the character and rather my own skill level. He can fill so many possible play styles its crazy.

I cannot think of a character that rewards excellent reads of rolls more than Pac and guess what is big in this game?

Rolls

Pac. Is. Gonna. Be. Big.

 

[KiBom]

It doesn't go through Melon last time I checked.

But it looks like priorities were tweaked in 1.03 patch. It may have changed. Maybe its my imagination though... I never wrote down what beat what... but things just feel different now.

You're right. I'm doing much better now that I've discovered that both orange and melon both shut needles down and punish at the same time. As another tip against Shieks, 99% of them after a down throw will immediately try and combo into an uair. Read, air dodge then punish with hydrant or various aerials depending on their position.

Edit: Tramp traps are great against Shiek too.

 

[LanceStern]

I had a little write up in Word for Rosalina and Luma, because I had so much trouble fighting her. Please feel free to leave input.

On another note, do you think it would be best if we had separate matchup threads?

Vs. Rosalina & Luma

The dreaded duo Rosalina and Luma are a force to be reckoned with. She has great roll-speed, quick attacks that hit like a truck and reach well beyond her hurt box, and then duplicates that with Luma anywhere on the map! It’s no wonder she is speculated as top of the top-tier.

I need your help, below I’ve made a couple of tips from my own experience with the Rosalina & Luma matchup. Can people come comment and leave their own input on how to go about the matchup?

What to look out for

• Her dash attack and jab range and speed.
• Use your attacks wisely please. She can punish ANYTHING we whiff with her jab or dash attack.
• Her attacks outrange almost everything Pacman throws at her. If you use aerials, full hop them or else she can punish.

Tips to focus on

• Use a hydrant to keep a Luma separated from Rosalina. It can’t navigate back around the hydrant unless she jumps. Be careful of Luma knocking the hydrant at you.
• Have a key to KO. Possibly an apple because they recover low (?)
• They love to roll, so have a jab or down-tilt ready to punish. Our smashes are a little too slow and if you miss the punish, she will hit you back

 

[LanceStern]

I cannot think of a character that rewards excellent reads of rolls more than Pac and guess what is big in this game?

Rolls

Pac. Is. Gonna. Be. Big.

The only problem I have is that some characters rolls are so good it negates my read. I'll have charged Dsmash or Fsmash the correct direction and wait for their roll and still they find a way to shield it

 

[Funkermonster]

Advice on beating Charizard? I feel scared to charge Bonus Fruit against him because of Flare Blitz and his KO power.

 

[Firedemon0]

Advice on beating Charizard? I feel scared to charge Bonus Fruit against him because of Flare Blitz and his KO power.

Flare Blitz is very easily blocked or air dodged. It has a wind up time that you can shield and punish when they bounce off. You can do with with several of Pac's attacks including fair, nair, dash attack, or a throw.

 

[Pacack]

Advice on beating Charizard? I feel scared to charge Bonus Fruit against him because of Flare Blitz and his KO power.

Be patient and don't get too close. Rock smash does a stupid amount of damage and will net an advantage early in the match if you let it. Practice timing on your shield against Flare Blitz and it's not too hard to block (if they approach from a distance, which they should be if you keep them out well). I'm not sure off the top of my head what fruits do against Flare Blitz, but it might be fantastic. If Charizard is forced to stop and hit your cherry, strawberry, orange, or even apple, then he'll do more damage to himself than if he missed, and you can trick an overzealous Charizard into racking up damage on themselves. Even if it only stops him/slows him down and makes Flare Blitz a useless option, that'll limit Charizard's options incredibly.

Also don't rely on the hydrant. Charizard will knock it away far easier than you will due to his power, and it'll become a hazard to yourself moreso than him (unless they're dealing with it wrong and focusing on it while you beat them up a bit).

It'll leave you will unfortunately few options not having your hydrant and having to think about your fruit, but you should be able to do it if you use fruit a ton and utilize Pac's other good moves (bair in particular may be good if you're not using it for the hydrant and staling it).

 

[Funkermonster]

Be patient and don't get too close. Rock smash does a stupid amount of damage and will net an advantage early in the match if you let it. Practice timing on your shield against Flare Blitz and it's not too hard to block (if they approach from a distance, which they should be if you keep them out well). I'm not sure off the top of my head what fruits do against Flare Blitz, but it might be fantastic. If Charizard is forced to stop and hit your cherry, strawberry, orange, or even apple, then he'll do more damage to himself than if he missed, and you can trick an overzealous Charizard into racking up damage on themselves. Even if it only stops him/slows him down and makes Flare Blitz a useless option, that'll limit Charizard's options incredibly.

Also don't rely on the hydrant. Charizard will knock it away far easier than you will due to his power, and it'll become a hazard to yourself moreso than him (unless they're dealing with it wrong and focusing on it while you beat them up a bit).

It'll leave you will unfortunately few options not having your hydrant and having to think about your fruit, but you should be able to do it if you use fruit a ton and utilize Pac's other good moves (bair in particular may be good if you're not using it for the hydrant and staling it).

I was actually told that his Flare Blitz actually eats through projectiles once the startup ends, although I don't know if it bursts through Pac's Projectiles. If it's true, its definitely not fantastic. Everything else though, great advice. I'll work on it next time.

 

[Lord Cruxis]

Advice on beating Charizard? I feel scared to charge Bonus Fruit against him because of Flare Blitz and his KO power.

Melon eats his flame thrower. 100% always beats it...that and key.

 

[Little Pac]

I cannot think of a character that rewards excellent reads of rolls more than Pac and guess what is big in this game?

Rolls

Pac. Is. Gonna. Be. Big.

God, landing a bair or smash attack when punishing a roll/tech is so satisfying.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Hey guys, I did a review of some Pac MUs on the competitive impressions thread

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-77#post-17915130

Any discussion here or there would be cool

 

[dragontamer]

Pac is great at punishing Lucario and the few I have played I have not had too much trouble with. I do realise his aura mechanic is super important this time around, but that doesn't excuse how slow his dash is. Pac is just too quick on the ground and in the air for Lucario to hit him too much. Add in the fact Bonus Fruit can just absorb the aura sphere, I cannot see Lucario having an advantage here.

I think you're playing against weak Lucario players. Lucario is going to shoot micro-spheres and win at long-range control. It is Lucario who controls the long-range game. Tell your Lucario friends to "tap b" and spam microspheres. Lucario horizontal zoning honestly feels stronger than Duck Hunt sometimes, especially at high percentages when side-b becomes a valid space control attack.

Once Lucarios start wavebouncing erratically or using advanced tech... things get difficult.

Again, have not had as much trouble in this matchup as others seem to. As such, I am a little bit confused as to why people rate her so highly but I just never seem to have too much trouble against Sheik. If I need to charge bonus fruit, I just go outside the range of her needles. Pac's ftilt comes out pretty quickly and his dash is great. Obviously Sheik has combos and is quite fast, but I still have not lost to as many Sheiks as I would have expected given how highly she is rated. Would say slightly in Pac's favour based on my XP.

Find a Shiek who is good enough to short-hop over Orange and Melon, and punish you with nair -> combos. Shiek's who roll around on the ground are weak.

Pac Man somewhat controls the long range fight and out-prioritizes needles, but good Shiek players seem to have no trouble approaching due to speed, running speed and good short-hop heights. Unlike many characters, Shiek ties or beats Pac Man's air game. (Not quite like Yoshi... but it seems to be a slight advantage for Shiek)

Needles at certain angles can directly lead to grab followups and other close-quarter fights.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I think you're playing against weak Lucario players. Lucario is going to shoot micro-spheres and win at long-range control. It is Lucario who controls the long-range game. Tell your Lucario friends to "tap b" and spam microspheres. Lucario horizontal zoning honestly feels stronger than Duck Hunt sometimes, especially at high percentages when side-b becomes a valid space control attack.

Once Lucarios start wavebouncing erratically or using advanced tech... things get difficult.



Find a Shiek who is good enough to short-hop over Orange and Melon, and punish you with nair -> combos. Shiek's who roll around on the ground are weak.

Pac Man somewhat controls the long range fight and out-prioritizes needles, but good Shiek players seem to have no trouble approaching due to speed, running speed and good short-hop heights. Unlike many characters, Shiek ties or beats Pac Man's air game. (Not quite like Yoshi... but it seems to be a slight advantage for Shiek)

Needles at certain angles can directly lead to grab followups and other close-quarter fights.

Like I said in the post, both of those characters I only have experience against in FG. So very little. But I am a fairly attacking Pac so I don't feel like I need to go on the defensive to heavily against either of them. I have seen small sphere spam but I just jump over it. It hasn't troubled me at all. In terms of Sheik, I feel our close quarters is strong, hence why I put it even. Our main weakness is long ranging characters like Villager, Tink, Link, the Pits etc on flat stages who can spam so easily against us.

Our hardest counter outside of that list has to be Samus though. Missiles and a very strong close quarters game? No thank you.

 

[Firedemon0]

Like I said in the post, both of those characters I only have experience against in FG. So very little. But I am a fairly attacking Pac so I don't feel like I need to go on the defensive to heavily against either of them. I have seen small sphere spam but I just jump over it. It hasn't troubled me at all. In terms of Sheik, I feel our close quarters is strong, hence why I put it even. Our main weakness is long ranging characters like Villager, Tink, Link, the Pits etc on flat stages who can spam so easily against us.

Our hardest counter outside of that list has to be Samus though. Missiles and a very strong close quarters game? No thank you.

I honestly have not had that much of an issue with Samus personally. Her projectiles are easily power shielded, and short of up-B and Uair, her ability to hit Pac-man in air is poor. You can dodge Charged shots with hydrant, it immediately hits it away from you and you have a chance to use it again quickly

As for Sheik, I do feel we have an advantage over her. Fully charged, needles do not break hydrant. While Sheik can follow up quickly, Pac-man has several recovery options to avoid a deep edge guard against him, where Sheik is very strong with bair, uair, and bouncing fish. We can also effectively edge guard sheik as well. Hydrant beats out her UpB and orange can interrupt fish. The trick against Sheik is avoiding situations at higher percents where you cannot avoid Bouncing Fish as it kills very easily.

 

[dragontamer]

Like I said in the post, both of those characters I only have experience against in FG. So very little. But I am a fairly attacking Pac so I don't feel like I need to go on the defensive to heavily against either of them. I have seen small sphere spam but I just jump over it.

My point is that Lucario has absolutely no problems using small aura spheres if we start spamming fruit. Fruit is only an option vs characters who... lose to them. Mario for instance has fireballs that seem to cancel out even the Melon. Microspheres from Lucario also cancel out Melon. So outside of charging up to key, this means PacMan has to take the offensive against them. They "control" the match, so to speak, while we have to play rushdown against them.

In most matchups, we have the ability to choose between zoning or rushdown. Bowser is an example, we can play however we want against him. Vs Lucario however, we're pretty much limited to Rushdown.

Our hardest counter outside of that list has to be Samus though. Missiles and a very strong close quarters game? No thank you.

Unlike Lucario's microspheres... Melon seems to just straight up destroy all Missiles. I have far more issues with Lucario than Samus players.

Lucario's close-combat game is also wtfbbqsauce at 80%+. Counter that easily KOs? Command-Grab that KOs if it hits, and punishes rolling when it misses? Down-smash of unpunishability? Plank-punishing with Aura Spheres? Aerials with no landing lag?

 

[Paper Maribro]

My point is that Lucario has absolutely no problems using small aura spheres if we start spamming fruit. Fruit is only an option vs characters who... lose to them. Mario for instance has fireballs that seem to cancel out even the Melon. Microspheres from Lucario also cancel out Melon. So outside of charging up to key, this means PacMan has to take the offensive against them. They "control" the match, so to speak, while we have to play rushdown against them.

In most matchups, we have the ability to choose between zoning or rushdown. Bowser is an example, we can play however we want against him. Vs Lucario however, we're pretty much limited to Rushdown.

The only characters I dont play rushdown against are Yoshi and Rosaluma. Against Yoshi I play crying in the corner at how badly I am losing and against Rosalina I am super patient. Im an aggressive player and Pac really suits it, I dont mind being forced into something I would do naturally, so to me and my playstyle, I would have less issues.

Unlike Lucario's microspheres... Melon seems to just straight up destroy all Missiles. I have far more issues with Lucario than Samus players.

Well, the only Samus I played was this Japanese person on FG a while back. I was pretty bad back then I would say, so I guess I would need to try again. I just felt really helpless. If I tried controlling the stage, my hydrant would end up back in my face. If I tried rushing down, I would get missiled and smacked around. If I tried approaching aerially, her range would just knock me out of the air and into a world of pain. I guess I would need to try more stages and stuff against a good Samus now I am a much better player.

Lucario's close-combat game is also wtfbbqsauce at 80%+. Counter that easily KOs? Command-Grab that KOs if it hits, and punishes rolling when it misses? Down-smash of unpunishability? Plank-punishing with Aura Spheres? Aerials with no landing lag?

This is true, however, I would have to play more Lucarios to see if my playstyle works. So far I have a pretty good record against them so idk what it is. They are probably just bad haha

 

[Nu~]

I feel that we have a good matchup against Rosalina. I'll elaborate when I get home, but I believe that our pressure overwhelms her

 

[Paper Maribro]

I feel that we have a good matchup against Rosalina. I'll elaborate when I get home, but I believe that our pressure overwhelms her

Hey man, saw your comment on the thread.

Basically, with Duck Hunt, I have played like two on FG. I was just going on impressions.

Yoshi though, I completely disagree. A good Yoshi doesnt let you charge fruit. Egg throw is super quick now and makes you flinch a lot. It racks up damage so easily before he can rush in and use some of his other quick attacks. It is honestly brutal. His down b is really fast and hard to punish too because of the stars.

Interested to see what you have to say about Rosalina too.

 

[Pacack]

I feel that we have a good matchup against Rosalina. I'll elaborate when I get home, but I believe that our pressure overwhelms her

That's a surprise. I thought we'd practically all concluded that Rosalina is an unfavorable matchup for us.

 

[Nu~]

Well, I feel that the matchup isn't too bad because of how well we can bait her. The hydrant is immediately absorbed by the gravitational pull, so we can just keep chuking it at her and punish her with our moves. Our fair and nair beat all of her aerials besides uair and dair, and we can get her in the air easily with our trampoline. We can actually beat her in the air as long as we space our uair well, since it comes out faster than her dair, and stay mindful of her uair. I believe it's a battle of patience, but we don't have to play as defensive as we all thought

 

[Pacack]

Well, I feel that the matchup isn't too bad because of how well we can bait her. The hydrant is immediately absorbed by the gravitational pull, so we can just keep chuking it at her and punish her with our moves. Our fair and nair beat all of her aerials besides uair and dair, and we can get her in the air easily with our trampoline. We can actually beat her in the air as long as we space our uair well, since it comes out faster than her dair, and stay mindful of her uair. I believe it's a battle of patience, but we don't have to play as defensive as we all thought

I'd argue that one, but I haven't played enough good Rosalinas.

 

[Nu~]

I'd argue that one, but I haven't played enough good Rosalinas.

It's hard to believe, I know. But I just feel that we are a little bit over her in this matchup like 55:45.
Heck, If megaman can pressure Rosalina with only crash bombs, imagine how great the hydrant can cross her game up. I've fought a few good rosalinas, and they all fall for the projectile pressure, and get punished in the air.

 

[Firedemon0]

It's hard to believe, I know. But I just feel that we are a little bit over her in this matchup like 55:45.
Heck, If megaman can pressure Rosalina with only crash bombs, imagine how great the hydrant can cross her game up. I've fought a few good rosalinas, and they all fall for the projectile pressure, and get punished in the air.

They aren't using gravity pull. It completely negates hydrant as an attack and has low lag. Rosalina is Pac-man's toughest matchup. More so then yoshi in my opinion.

 

[dragontamer]

They aren't using gravity pull. It completely negates hydrant as an attack and has low lag. Rosalina is Pac-man's toughest matchup. More so then yoshi in my opinion.

I agree, although it should be noted that when Rosalina absorbs the Hydrant, the Hydrant's cooldown is negated somewhat. You can spam Hydrant significantly more often when Rosalina uses gravity pull.

The problem is that Pac-man becomes a one-trick (hydrant) pony. Fruits are mostly worthless vs Rosalina.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Hey guys, seems like theres a bit of a debate about how hard the matchups are, I will post a video of myself vsing my friend who is a fantastic Yoshi and solid Rosa next time we play. Obviously neither of us are pros but we are not bad players. With other characters, I would say we are fairly even, or he would probably be a bit better than me. So far, I have not won a single game against his Yoshi as Pac, nor have I beaten his Rosa, although I do much better against his Rosa (Trust me, we have had a lot of games and it just hurts me every time).

 

[EarthBoundRules]

One thing that seems to be effective against Rosaluma is Pac-Man's side-b. It hits Luma even if Rosalina is blocking and punishes a lot of her slower moves. Unfortunately, it can be read and punished with her Down-B.

 

[Firedemon0]

One thing that seems to be effective against Rosaluma is Pac-Man's side-b. It hits Luma even if Rosalina is blocking and punishes a lot of her slower moves. Unfortunately, it can be read and punished with her Down-B.

Gravity pull is a hard counter to all but trampoline. I think the biggest thing we can do is try to bait it out with a hydrant then follow up with an attack on Luma. I will be honest and say I'm picking up wario as a counter pick against her as it stands.

 

[Nu~]

I still don't feel uncomfortable in the rosalina matchup. Call me an optimist, but I really don't see how one move stops everything we do. They can't use it at the precise time, every time unless we play dumb and try to camp.
Just get in and play mid range. Punish if they try to use it when they are close to you, and keep the pressure on. We don't have to play passively all the time as long as we get in close with our fruit and learn to punish

 

[Lord Cruxis]

I still don't feel uncomfortable in the rosalina matchup. Call me an optimist, but I really don't see how one move stops everything we do. They can't use it at the precise time, every time unless we play dumb and try to camp.
Just get in and play mid range. Punish if they try to use it when they are close to you, and keep the pressure on. We don't have to play passively all the time as long as we get in close with our fruit and learn to punish

I think this match perfectly describe what everyone complains about with rosalina with pacman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioQBK7iHa_I

 

[Firedemon0]

I think this match perfectly describe what everyone complains about with rosalina with pacman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioQBK7iHa_I

It does, that was rosalina's fight to lose in my opinion. You can see how easily Rosalina can gimp Pac-man's specials, and is able to react to any follows up he made. It was player skill that won this fight, Rosalina is a tough fight for Pac-man. Fruit is effective against Luma, and close range apples were the biggest notes I would take from the video.