Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[dragontamer]

I'm most impressed at the matchup discipline actually.

Multiple times, he throws fruit at a shielded Rosalina, because he's attacking Luma. Luma doesn't have a shield, so Rosaline may be shielding every hit, but he's trying to KO Luma before going in. When Rosalina is knocked high, he begins to combo Luma. He uses Hydrant to separate them.

He uses Hydrant as a way to buy time. He feints a BAir, baiting Rosalina's down-B, giving Pac-man time to charge his fruit to Galaga (very effective vs Luma for dmg), or Key.

Shows that I have a lot to learn about the matchup. But I still consider it in Rosalina's favor, there's so much that down-B does against us.

 

[EarthBoundRules]

Gravity pull is a hard counter to all but trampoline. I think the biggest thing we can do is try to bait it out with a hydrant then follow up with an attack on Luma. I will be honest and say I'm picking up wario as a counter pick against her as it stands.

Is Wario Rosalina's best counter? I'm thinking of picking up a secondary that can deal with her. I've heard good things about ROB as well.

 

[Firedemon0]

Is Wario Rosalina's best counter? I'm thinking of picking up a secondary that can deal with her. I've heard good things about ROB as well.

It is who I am most comfortable with, the bike just happens to mess with Rosalina's day is a benefit. He does have a safe back throw against luma attacks. He has a slightly stronger air game. Waft is a very effective kill move as well.

 

[Pacack]

Can I just say that Abadango is easily the best Pac-Man player I've seen yet?

 

[Paper Maribro]

Okay guys, I dunno if this is the wrong thread or not (its a video but it fits here because we were all discussing the MU), but this video of myself against my friends RosaLuma really typifies why I think the MU is in her favour. Now, I make a lot of mistakes and I am the first to admit I am probably not the best player in this thread, let alone in this forum, so you do not need to point out that I am bad. Constructive criticism would be great though, of course. Hopefully you guys can all see and understand why you have to play super defensively against RosaLuma or you will be punished hard.

Can I just say that Abadango is easily the best Pac-Man player I've seen yet?

Now prepare for one of the worst

 

[HakujouOokami]

I honestly have not had that much of an issue with Samus personally. Her projectiles are easily power shielded, and short of up-B and Uair, her ability to hit Pac-man in air is poor. You can dodge Charged shots with hydrant, it immediately hits it away from you and you have a chance to use it again quickly

As for Sheik, I do feel we have an advantage over her. Fully charged, needles do not break hydrant. While Sheik can follow up quickly, Pac-man has several recovery options to avoid a deep edge guard against him, where Sheik is very strong with bair, uair, and bouncing fish. We can also effectively edge guard sheik as well. Hydrant beats out her UpB and orange can interrupt fish. The trick against Sheik is avoiding situations at higher percents where you cannot avoid Bouncing Fish as it kills very easily.

Absolutely true to that statement on Sheik not being a harsh matchup on our part. Actually because Sheik needs so much breathing room, we dominate her in that field since Hydrant will leave her incapable of closing that well of a gap as well as the Bonus Fruit crippling her at every corner. The Trampoline also helps in this matchup cause she'll go into an instant full jump and try to fast fall for a Fair like most Sheiks would, in my opinion, because it feels safe but it really isn't. Reading Sheik is actually a lot easier because of the obstacles Sheik has to go through.

I've also seen in some cases, even while cycling through Bonus Fruit, the fruit acts as a magnet to Bouncing Fish which is strange but I'm not complaining. If it works the same way as the Flip Jump for ZSS without the crazy grounding or knockback then it's safe to say Pac and just cycle through it if they go overhead.

 

[LanceStern]

Side B is not good against Rosalina. Good Rosalinas won't get hit by it and will punish us hard.

I played quite a handful of matches against the San Diego regional champ (Falln, Gamestop tourney but excellent Brawl player too). It is not in our favor. She punishes everything

 

[Funkermonster]

Advice against other projectile characters like ?

 

[DrakeRowan]

Advice against other projectile characters like ?

PacMan is very good at staying on people, especially Link. Pressure them with fair and stay on their toes. If it's Link, ALWAYS be prepared for their jab to come out. A lot of Links tend to spam that once they feel pressured. Proper Hydrant placing is key to these matchups as they'll either push the projectile user off stage or push them to PacMan. Plus, hydrant will eat projectiles, and they can't just roll through it. For fruit, I find cherry and Apple very useful in these matchups as they can bypass their projectiles (becuse of their toss angle). Just jump and through it at the right height.

 

[Firedemon0]

Advice against other projectile characters like ?

This is a very easy matchup for Pac-man. We can cancel anything they throw with any fruit. We can bait out attacks because of our ability to hydrant dodge basically everything. We can very easily gimp them off stage with fruit or even aerials, but I have noticed, that some links will immediately up B when close enough to the ledge to try to catch you. I have a few replays against Links I will attempt to post to the video thread.

 

[dragontamer]

Honestly, I don't care about Link's projectiles.

His unpunishable aerials on the other hand, are a pain in the ass. It takes matchup knowledge and discipline to continue to shield long after Link lands, because ever damn aerial he has (outside of down-air) has damn near instant recovery.

 

[Funkermonster]

This is a very easy matchup for Pac-man. We can cancel anything they throw with any fruit. We can bait out attacks because of our ability to hydrant dodge basically everything. We can very easily gimp them off stage with fruit or even aerials, but I have noticed, that some links will immediately up B when close enough to the ledge to try to catch you. I have a few replays against Links I will attempt to post to the video thread.

What do you mean hydrant dodge? What is it? Looking forward to ur videos though ( i got some new ones too, still need improvement )

 

[Firedemon0]

What do you mean hydrant dodge? What is it? Looking forward to ur videos though ( i got some new ones too, still need improvement )

Basically right before they would swing, you drop hydrant. They hit hydrant, and you are free to react and punish/avoid accordingly.

 

[Nu~]

Welp, Rosalina got nerfed. Makes the matchup better now that we can actually grab her. And since we have no problems destroying that luma, this matchup is gonna be much more fun for us

 

[Funkermonster]

Funny tidbits I picked up while playing the matchup (Sonic is my 2ndary and I play Pac-Man a lot too, so I take it from both perspectives):

If Sonic is in his spindash or spin charge animation, you can actually grab him out of it with the laser part of Pac-Man's grab, if timed and positioned correctly. If you have a Melon fruit charged (which packs a punch!) you can toss it at him while he's spinning and it'll not only stop his spin, but also knock him and make him take damage, potentially killing him if if he's at high percent (I think the Key can also hurt him, but I haven't tried it). The other fruits like the Orange will stop him dead in his tracks too, but he won't take any damage or hitstun from them. I think the hydrant can be pretty effective against him too, since he hardly has a projectile and doesn't have too much power to boot in his attacks besides his smashes and bair.

This stuff probably wouldn't work against a good Sonic, but keeping a melon on you at a all times is a good way to body any scrubby Sonic that likes to spam either SideB or DownB. I'm not sure who wins this matchup (since I'm not amazing with either one of them, and hardly faced anyone who is), but I thought I'd share my findings anyway.

 

[Nu~]

Funny tidbits I picked up while playing the matchup (Sonic is my 2ndary and I play Pac-Man a lot too, so I take it from both perspectives):

If Sonic is in his spindash or spin charge animation, you can actually grab him out of it with the laser part of Pac-Man's grab, if timed and positioned correctly. If you have a Melon fruit charged (which packs a punch!) you can toss it at him while he's spinning and it'll not only stop his spin, but also knock him and make him take damage, potentially killing him if if he's at high percent (I think the Key can also hurt him, but I haven't tried it). The other fruits like the Orange will stop him dead in his tracks too, but he won't take any damage or hitstun from them. I think the hydrant can be pretty effective against him too, since he hardly has a projectile and doesn't have too much power to boot in his attacks besides his smashes and bair.

This stuff probably wouldn't work against a good Sonic, but keeping a melon on you at a all times is a good way to body any scrubby Sonic that likes to spam either SideB or DownB. I'm not sure who wins this matchup (since I'm not amazing with either one of them, and hardly faced anyone who is), but I thought I'd share my findings anyway.

The trampoline takes him out of his spindash immediately. Thats what I use

 

[HakujouOokami]

Upon closer inspection of the Diddy matchup (maybe I was just open and sandbagging against him something hard), I found I was doing pretty bad and getting hit by aerials and Monkey Flips something hard. Of course, this was online but however that does not deter the fact that I'm so bad with the Diddy match up. Hydrants seem to be an ongoing trade off to the banana since it'll be reliable to a Diddy that wants to go in but the Monkey does enough damage to knock out the hydrant or they short hop and have the range of the Gods when it's still in the command grab animation. It's bogus and because a good Diddy knows the item game just as well as we do, it requires a lot of reading to know when to throw the fruit.

Any other possible tips to the Diddy matchup I might be missing? Cause trust me, an aggressive Diddy is the last thing we want to leak salt for.. =/

 

[Firedemon0]

Upon closer inspection of the Diddy matchup (maybe I was just open and sandbagging against him something hard), I found I was doing pretty bad and getting hit by aerials and Monkey Flips something hard. Of course, this was online but however that does not deter the fact that I'm so bad with the Diddy match up. Hydrants seem to be an ongoing trade off to the banana since it'll be reliable to a Diddy that wants to go in but the Monkey does enough damage to knock out the hydrant or they short hop and have the range of the Gods when it's still in the command grab animation. It's bogus and because a good Diddy knows the item game just as well as we do, it requires a lot of reading to know when to throw the fruit.

Any other possible tips to the Diddy matchup I might be missing? Cause trust me, an aggressive Diddy is the last thing we want to leak salt for.. =/

Diddy is a tough one for Pac-man as his aerial game is stronger, but nair is a pretty effective trade off attack with most of Diddy's moves. His Side-B does not beat ours once we get into super armor. Banana is normally used to force you into the air, or to shield so he can run in and grab. Hydrant OOS when he comes in is an option. You can also use Up-B to force him into the air, where you can pelt him with oranges to keep him away, or follow up when he gets bounced with an up air as it is faster then his dair. Once off stage, gimp away, strawberry and cherry are great barrel gimps. Even a falling fair will gimp his recovery. You can out side B him for edge guarding, or hit him with orange, it cancels out his Side B and knocks him further away. We have a better off stage game then Diddy does, so that is where you want to force him.

 

[Nabbitnator]

im trying to learn pacman. I really enjoy using him and ive been playing pacman world 2 again because of it. How do I approach with pacman and what are some basic combos I can do with him? I've been using the melon to get in and the apple to help approach. Are there any other options that could seem safer? I want to have some sort of plan in my match ups of at least having a basic approach and punish options. Also how does Pacman beat shiek?

 

[Funkermonster]

im trying to learn pacman. I really enjoy using him and ive been playing pacman world 2 again because of it. How do I approach with pacman and what are some basic combos I can do with him? I've been using the melon to get in and the apple to help approach. Are there any other options that could seem safer? I want to have some sort of plan in my match ups of at least having a basic approach and punish options. Also how does Pacman beat shiek?

Pac-Man World 2? I remember that game! One of the best gamecube games I've ever played, and that's kinda the reason why I love Pac-Man (alongside Pac-Mania and the original Pac-Man).

But anyway on topic, against certain characters I don't think approaching with Pac-Man is necessary when you can make them approach you by using the fruit, hydrant, and the trampoline (works wonders against Little Mac). But if you feel you must approach, you can also just try some empty jumps and walking like you would with someone else, still using the melons and the apple. As for combos:

Fair > Nair/Fair (really hard to land on smaller characters though)
Dthrow > Dash Attack > Uair
Dthrow > Dash Attack > SideB
Dthrow > SideB
Fthrow > Fair
Fthrow > SideB

Honestly though, I don't think Pac's tricks are in his combos, since he doesn't really have that many useful ones and there are other factors that can ruin them like damage percentage, character heights, and DI all over the place. As for fighting Sheik, make life hard for her by making her come to you with the Hydrant, just stand ontop of it if she tries to use her needles, they can't destroy it. Apples and the other fruit work great against her two, especially if she tries to use her DownB/Bounching Fish, and I personally love to use the Bell (my personal favorite fruit he has, though technically its not a fruit) to punish her when I can and then kill her with a smash or if I miss I can just Z-drop it and attempt to punish her again. The Trampoline can also mess up her game and give you some stage control and breathing room, almost like Diddy Kong's Banana's in Brawl. I faced 2 Sheiks awhile ago in For Glory using these and I won, though it might just be that they weren't very good. Even so though, I think the obstacles she has to go through when facing Pac-Man makes it an annoying matchup for her, if not against her favor.

Good luck learning him and the other 7 characters in your signature though, its gonna be really hard to manage time learning 3 mains and 5 sub-mains. Just saying.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Pac-Man World 2? I remember that game! One of the best gamecube games I've ever played, and that's kinda the reason why I love Pac-Man (alongside Pac-Mania and the original Pac-Man).

But anyway on topic, against certain characters I don't think approaching with Pac-Man is necessary when you can make them approach you by using the fruit, hydrant, and the trampoline (works wonders against Little Mac). But if you feel you must approach, you can also just try some empty jumps and walking like you would with someone else, still using the melons and the apple. As for combos:

Fair > Nair/Fair (really hard to land on smaller characters though)
Dthrow > Dash Attack > Uair
Dthrow > Dash Attack > SideB
Dthrow > SideB
Fthrow > Fair
Fthrow > SideB

Honestly though, I don't think Pac's tricks are in his combos, since he doesn't really have that many useful ones and there are other factors that can ruin them like damage percentage, character heights, and DI all over the place. As for fighting Sheik, make life hard for her by making her come to you with the Hydrant, just stand ontop of it if she tries to use her needles, they can't destroy it. Apples and the other fruit work great against her two, especially if she tries to use her DownB/Bounching Fish, and I personally love to use the Bell (my personal favorite fruit he has, though technically its not a fruit) to punish her when I can and then kill her with a smash or if I miss I can just Z-drop it and attempt to punish her again. The Trampoline can also mess up her game and give you some stage control and breathing room, almost like Diddy Kong's Banana's in Brawl. I faced 2 Sheiks awhile ago in For Glory using these and I won, though it might just be that they weren't very good. Even so though, I think the obstacles she has to go through when facing Pac-Man makes it an annoying matchup for her, if not against her favor.

Good luck learning him and the other 7 characters in your signature though, its gonna be really hard to manage time learning 3 mains and 5 sub-mains. Just saying.

I think in the long run it will end up being pacman/peach as mains and then palutena. thanks for all the info. I'll make sure to make good use of it.

 

[Nu~]

Pacman's grab feels soo much faster on the wii u
And it has more reach, almost the entire beam can catch opponents now!!!!

 

[dragontamer]

Sheik's needles hates the strawberry. Save the Hydrant for when you get launched, because it's a pain to land when a Shiek is juggling you.

 

[Funkermonster]

How to deal with Wario? Primarily his Bite move (which eats any bonus fruit I attempt to throw at him) and when he rides his motorcycle, just about every Wario I've met on FG plays the same.

 

[Firedemon0]

How to deal with Wario? Primarily his Bite move (which eats any bonus fruit I attempt to throw at him) and when he rides his motorcycle, just about every Wario I've met on FG plays the same.

Good news! I have Wario as a secondary. This is an even match up for Pac-Man. Orange and above knock him off his motorcycle. If he is spamming bite, while it can be spammed it also means he cannot move and is vulnerable from behind. He also cannot bite an apple from above. The hit box is only in front of him. It cannot be spot dodged. It also cannot eat hydrant. So Fling Hydrants then follow up with fruit.

 

[Nu~]

Can I just say how amazing the apple is?
It completely destroys short hop approaches, forces opponents into the air above you where you can juggle them with up air for dayz, and can snipe opponents while your in the air to cover your landing. With the apple alone we destroy jigglypuff, sheik, and peach as they all love to approach with short hops (or floating in peach's case)

Also, how do you all think we perform against the perceived top tiers?
,,,,,,

I believe that we crush sonic, sheik, fox, and diddy, go even with shulk, and have unfavorable (but not unwinnable) matchups against rosaluma and yoshi (less unfavorable after the patch though).
What do you all think?

 

[Pacack]

Also, how do you all think we perform against the perceived top tiers?
,,,,,,

I believe that we crush sonic, shulk, sheik, and fox, go even with diddy, and have unfavorable (but not unwinnable) matchups against rosaluma and yoshi.
I'll give all of my reasoning tomorrow, but what do you all think?

Haven't faced a good one.

Evenish.

Very, very bad for us, but not unwinnable.

Can't launch hydrant at us easily, cherry/strawberry kills needles, bad at killing us. Definitely in our favor.

Haven't faced a good one.

Haven't fought many, but it seems a little in our favor.

Close to even, but I lean towards a little in Shulk's favor (if he's aggressive enough and uses his arts well).

 

[Paper Maribro]

Can I just say how amazing the apple is?
It completely destroys short hop approaches, forces opponents into the air above you where you can juggle them with up air for dayz, and can snipe opponents while your in the air to cover your landing. With the apple alone we destroy jigglypuff, sheik, and peach as they all love to approach with short hops (or floating in peach's case)

Also, how do you all think we perform against the perceived top tiers?
,,,,,,

I believe that we crush sonic, shulk, sheik, and fox, go even with diddy, and have unfavorable (but not unwinnable) matchups against rosaluma and yoshi.
I'll give all of my reasoning tomorrow, but what do you all think?

Since I havent got 1.0.4 yet, I am basing this off of 1.0.3 impressions

I have never had any trouble with this matchup, I guess that could be because of online lag and whatevs, but I honestly just feel in control against Diddy
I dont really have any experience with this matchup at all
Havent played 1.0.4 Rosa yet but it should be easier from what I have heard
I have played a lot of Sheiks and again, I never seem to have any trouble with them, although that is probably due to online etc.
I hate this matchup because I am bad
Fairly even but he is pretty damn fast compared to us so it could be in his favour, I dunno
No experience with this matchup whatsoever

 

[Nu~]

Haven't faced a good one.

Evenish.

Very, very bad for us, but not unwinnable.

Can't launch hydrant at us easily, cherry/strawberry kills needles, bad at killing us. Definitely in our favor.

Haven't faced a good one.

Haven't fought many, but it seems a little in our favor.

Close to even, but I lean towards a little in Shulk's favor (if he's aggressive enough and uses his arts well).

I agree mostly.

Guess I'll just give my reasoning today lol.

Sonic loses hard because his spin dash approach is destroyed by the trampoline and every fruit. We then can proceed to out camp him and force him to make mistakes untill we seal the kill. He also has problems killing us because he can't get close enough. We pretty much ruin his rush down.

Fox gets crushed as long as we play the mid range game with our fruit. Neither of us can force each other to approach or camp each other out because his lasers can't break the hydrant, and he can just sit on his reflector. We need to destroy him in mid range my using the strawberry and apple to ruin his short hop approaches, use the galaxian to set up combos, and gimping him with the bell and orange (orange if he side B's, bell if he recovers low). His combos hurt but only if you commit too much. I suggest using the grab very sparingly in this matchup, unless you know you can land it. Getting him into the air helps too because our up air beats his down air so trampoline all the way.

I may agree with you on shulk though, but if he goes aggressive, then that means that we have to force him to make mistakes and capitalize on it. Forcing him into the air with trampoline and baiting his nair or fair is a really good way to ruin his game if he's using speed, and even with jump, he can't stop our side B's armor while we recover. This matchup seems very even, as long as we play smart.

Diddy loses hard off stage, and can't juggle us that well due to the holy hydrant (especially with dire hydrant on)
His peanuts and bananas lose to our fruits and hydrants, and our trampoline wrecks him because of his really bad approach options when he's directly above us.

Also, rosa doesn't seem as difficult anymore after the patch now that her power and range were nerfed. And we can still bait her down B by throwing a hydrant, followed up by an aerial of choice.​

 

[Funkermonster]

Sonic loses hard because his spin dash approach is destroyed by the trampoline and every fruit. We then can proceed to out camp him and force him to make mistakes untill we seal the kill. He also has problems killing us because he can't get close enough. We pretty much ruin his rush down.

​

​

I disagree with your reasoning for the Sonic matchup. Spin Dashing isn't a viable approach option in the first place even when not facing Pac-Man, its telegraphed and easily shieldable. Same with , shield his SideB/Car and he can't do anything. Unlike Bowser Jr though what Sonic does have is the speed and surprise options with his various other approaches: Spinshots, Spin Dash canceled-jumps, and great fakeouts with shield-canceled spins. Unless,Sonic is not that easy of acharacter to camp out, and they shouldn't be trying to approach with spin dashes anyway. The spindash itself isn't that scary, its the stuff he can do out of one that makes tough. It might slaughter noobs in For Glory (a lot of Sonic players on that mode are pretty bad in my experience), but it wouldn't work on an actual good Sonic who can bypass the fruit and trampolines and get into your face otherwise. And when Sonic does get in it can be pretty annoying to deal with, has a lot of moves you just gotta respect like his Fsmash, Grab and throws, and his Ftilt.

Maybe the matchup still is in Pac's favor, but I don't necessarily agree so just because you can take him out of his spindah. Projectiles and Trampoline are only gonna keep him out for so long.

 

[Nu~]

​

I disagree with your reasoning for the Sonic matchup. Spin Dashing isn't a viable approach option in the first place even when not facing Pac-Man, its telegraphed and easily shieldable. Same with , shield his SideB/Car and he can't do anything. Unlike Bowser Jr though what Sonic does have is the speed and surprise options with his various other approaches: Spinshots, Spin Dash canceled-jumps, and great fakeouts with shield-canceled spins. Unless,Sonic is not that easy of acharacter to camp out, and they shouldn't be trying to approach with spin dashes anyway. The spindash itself isn't that scary, its the stuff he can do out of one that makes tough. It might slaughter noobs in For Glory (a lot of Sonic players on that mode are pretty bad in my experience), but it wouldn't work on an actual good Sonic who can bypass the fruit and trampolines and get into your face otherwise. And when Sonic does get in it can be pretty annoying to deal with, has a lot of moves you just gotta respect like his Fsmash, Grab and throws, and his Ftilt.

Maybe the matchup still is in Pac's favor, but I don't necessarily agree so just because you can take him out of his spindah. Projectiles and Trampoline are only gonna keep him out for so long.

Ah. Yeah, i'm too used to scrubby sonics. However, the trampoline still ruins sonic's approach because it forces him into the air. Sonic doesn't have many safe options against a shielding opponent on the ground so we can just punish away. And yes, we can keep him out with hydrant and fruit shenanigans but you have to use them at the right time; not just chucking them at him like a mad man. Our projectiles cover many approaches due to their versatility. Sonic's bread and butter approaches all lose to the proper fruit. If he runs up and shields, drop a hydrant and punish when he tries to launch it

 

[bekindrewind]

So I have a problem. I try to edgeguard Mac with fruit or aerials but they immediately use Side B and have super armor. Do I just wait it out more and get him farther or what? I really don't want to deal with him longer than I should. And I feel incredibly embarrassed I lose to a Little Mac when I think PAC-MAN has such a considerable advantage over him.

 

[Firedemon0]

So I have a problem. I try to edgeguard Mac with fruit or aerials but they immediately use Side B and have super armor. Do I just wait it out more and get him farther or what? I really don't want to deal with him longer than I should. And I feel incredibly embarrassed I lose to a Little Mac when I think PAC-MAN has such a considerable advantage over him.

Little mac can be chain grabbed offstage if they do not grab the ledge. The biggest indication the side B will land behind is all about how high they are coming in. You want to give yourself space to get them on landing.

 

[BSP]

As of late, I've been thinking that 's greatest potential is as a camping character that doesn't approach unless he absolutely has to, or he is facing an opponent that can out camp him.

I'm sure it didn't take you guys long to figure out how effective:

[..............trampoline.............hydrant..........................]

is as a stage control setup once you get the lead, and it only gets worse once you throw platforms into the mix. Seriously, nobody can get around this setup safely, except maybe . The trampoline stops them from quickly smashing the hydrant away, and if they short hop, they're going to be stopped by the hydrant, which you can then proceed to throw something at them or read a launch by them and side B into them.

Now, just imagine that for every single time they committed to crossing your hydrant by full hopping, you:

1: roll towards your trampoline once they've landed and bounce to the other side of the stage. If they try to chase you, they have to waste time launching the hydrant or jumping over it. If you have practiced sufficiently to know where to land so that if they Fsmash your hydrant at you, you won't get hit by it, this is safe. Then, you set up another trampoline and wait for them to try again, respawning your hydrant once you can.

2: Jump at them and Bair/Uair/Fair and reset the situation,except with them having more % now.

3:Shield and grab, or unshield and use tilts/jab to hit them.

4: Assuming you've already Bair'd your hydrant, you Ftilt launch it them as soon as they jump, forcing an AD, and then you punish the lag.

5:Shield and Up B OOS if they land on top of you

How is anyone going to deal with mixing up those options? Throw in some random rush down between your running away and you've got a pretty unpredictable character that can control the pace of the match.

Edit: nvm, don't think you can.

 

[bekindrewind]

As of late, I've been thinking that 's greatest potential is as a camping character that doesn't approach unless he absolutely has to, or he is facing an opponent that can out camp him.

I'm sure it didn't take you guys long to figure out how effective:

[..............trampoline.............hydrant..........................]

is as a stage control setup once you get the lead, and it only gets worse once you throw platforms into the mix. Seriously, nobody can get around this setup safely, except maybe . The trampoline stops them from quickly smashing the hydrant away, and if they short hop, they're going to be stopped by the hydrant, which you can then proceed to throw something at them or read a launch by them and side B into them.

Now, just imagine that for every single time they committed to crossing your hydrant by full hopping, you:

1: roll towards your trampoline once they've landed and bounce to the other side of the stage. If they try to chase you, they have to waste time launching the hydrant or jumping over it. If you have practiced sufficiently to know where to land so that if they Fsmash your hydrant at you, you won't get hit by it, this is safe. Then, you set up another trampoline and wait for them to try again, respawning your hydrant once you can.

2: Jump at them and Bair/Uair/Fair and reset the situation,except with them having more % now.

3:Shield and grab, or unshield and use tilts/jab to hit them.

4: Assuming you've already Bair'd your hydrant, you Ftilt launch it them as soon as they jump, forcing an AD, and then you punish the lag.

5:Shield and Up B OOS if they land on top of you

How is anyone going to deal with mixing up those options? Throw in some random rush down between your running away and you've got a pretty unpredictable character that can control the pace of the match.

Edit: nvm, don't think you can.

Interesting. My only worry when I try to use the trampoline to set this up is that it's too much for PAC-MAN to do before his opponent can chase him down. He has the end lag after landing and it takes a little time to set down the hydrant. Because while youre trying to set up the hydrant the opponent could just be bouncing on the trampoline. Plus I don't know how much time you'd have to charge your fruit as much when they're inbetween the space.

I could just be really dumb but I just like to question these counters as its the only way to counter them back..

 

[Nu~]

I still think Pacman's potential lies in trapping opponents and utilizing his versatility to switch between zoning and rush down. He's an extremely unpredictable character.
What's really bumming me out is how many people are still sleeping on him
I mean, do people really think he isn't high tier?
Guess they'll learn soon enough

 

[bekindrewind]

I still think Pacman's potential lies in trapping opponents and utilizing his versatility to switch between zoning and rush down. He's an extremely unpredictable character.
What's really bumming me out is how many people are still sleeping on him
I mean, do people really think he isn't high tier?
Guess they'll learn soon enough

Being such a devout and passionate main with PAC-MAN, I have to be pessimistic and cynical in a sense and say I don't see him being top tier and most likely low to bottom mid. I think when the game advances people are going to be fully aware of his tricks and find ways to counter them hard. I think he honestly needs a buff in strength or speed, because to me he needs a little more oomph to him to make him more threatening. The camping mindgames with the trampoline and hydrant setup will be confusing, but I don't know if it's able to be fast and effective enough to inflict tons of damage, or even worse, kill.

I love Sakurai's logic with the patch, too. "Let's give characters unnecessary nerfs! Like uh... PAC-MAN! Yeah! let's make his hydrant have just enough HP so it can't be hit by a single fresh Pac bair. Oh, and let's make his already laggy up smash have more endlag!"

 

[Nu~]

Being such a devout and passionate main with PAC-MAN, I have to be pessimistic and cynical in a sense and say I don't see him being top tier and most likely low to bottom mid. I think when the game advances people are going to be fully aware of his tricks and find ways to counter them hard. I think he honestly needs a buff in strength or speed, because to me he needs a little more oomph to him to make him more threatening. The camping mindgames with the trampoline and hydrant setup will be confusing, but I don't know if it's able to be fast and effective enough to inflict tons of damage, or even worse, kill.

I love Sakurai's logic with the patch, too. "Let's give characters unnecessary nerfs! Like uh... PAC-MAN! Yeah! let's make his hydrant have just enough HP so it can't be hit by a single fresh Pac bair. Oh, and let's make his already laggy up smash have more endlag!"

Well I'm more inclined to be optimistic and idealistic. What you're doing wrong is comparing pacman's short term, to the meta game's long term. We will discover new ways to use him and unlock different strategies than just using the same fruit, hydrant, and trampoline spam tricks.
We already have a considerable amount of kill moves in all of our smash attacks, our side B, our key, and hydrant. And I don't know why you don't think we can't rack up damage quickly when we have an entire moveset based on chucking things that inflict heavy damage.

 

[bekindrewind]

Well I'm more inclined to be optimistic and idealistic. What you're doing wrong is comparing pacman's short term, to the meta game's long term. We will discover new ways to use him and unlock different strategies than just using the same fruit, hydrant, and trampoline spam tricks.
We already have a considerable amount of kill moves in all of our smash attacks, our side B, our key, and hydrant. And I don't know why you don't think we can't rack up damage quickly when we have an entire moveset based on chucking things that inflict heavy damage.

I think PAC-MAN is great at racking up damage. I was just saying that if you use the continuous hiding behind hydrants and trampolines I don't know how you're supposed to rack damage up.

His smash attacks can kill. I know that. They're incredibly slow and punishable against fast moving characters, especially ones with quick smashes like Fox or Falco. The side B I don't like using often because you can get badly punished for using it since you can just shield through it then punish by pivot smashing or grabbing. The key can be very very useful and even set up mindgames because you have it in your pocket waiting to throw it and the opponent knows it. However, against a character with a reflector, and even worse a very good reflector like Fox or Falco, it's dangerous to use it as it can null it or even hurt you if you mess up. The hydrant can be made useless or even worse than not throwing it out against quick reflecting characters like Fox or Falco because of the fact it will never disappear, and goes back to Pac at a faster speed and more powerful damage.

Can you see what characters I'm having a hard time against, by the way?

 

[Pacack]

I think PAC-MAN is great at racking up damage. I was just saying that if you use the continuous hiding behind hydrants and trampolines I don't know how you're supposed to rack damage up.

His smash attacks can kill. I know that. They're incredibly slow and punishable against fast moving characters, especially ones with quick smashes like Fox or Falco. The side B I don't like using often because you can get badly punished for using it since you can just shield through it then punish by pivot smashing or grabbing. The key can be very very useful and even set up mindgames because you have it in your pocket waiting to throw it and the opponent knows it. However, against a character with a reflector, and even worse a very good reflector like Fox or Falco, it's dangerous to use it as it can null it or even hurt you if you mess up. The hydrant can be made useless or even worse than not throwing it out against quick reflecting characters like Fox or Falco because of the fact it will never disappear, and goes back to Pac at a faster speed and more powerful damage.

Can you see what characters I'm having a hard time against, by the way?

Consider using your up and back throw to kill if you can't use your other kill moves. It's riskier, but it works.