Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[Firedemon0]

http://smashboards.com/threads/uzis-fox-101-a-fox-guide.228287/



Smash 4 could've changed this, but I doubt it.

It did not, reflecting is still a commitment. I did miss the line about oos afterwards, so I misread. If you miss time a reflection or spam it. You will eat it.

 

[BSP]

So could someone test out whether or not we can set up a hydrant and:

Charge up an Orange/Apple/Melon, throw it at the hydrant, and catch the fruit before it disappears? Or just have the fruit, throw it at it, and see if you can catch it.

Another thing: When Pac Man is in midair, can he throw a bell and catch it without hitting the ground? If so, he can give himself a better OOS option than grab for when he tries to get back up from the ledge.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I'm gonna focus me on Freaky Fruit, this definitely helps.

 

[Nu~]

So could someone test out whether or not we can set up a hydrant and:

Charge up an Orange/Apple/Melon, throw it at the hydrant, and catch the fruit before it disappears? Or just have the fruit, throw it at it, and see if you can catch it.

Another thing: When Pac Man is in midair, can he throw a bell and catch it without hitting the ground? If so, he can give himself a better OOS option than grab for when he tries to get back up from the ledge.

I can guarantee that the melon and apple work. I haven't tested the Orange yet but i'm almost certain that it'll work.
The bell though...it may take a while but It's definitely possible

 

[bekindrewind]

So could someone test out whether or not we can set up a hydrant and:

Charge up an Orange/Apple/Melon, throw it at the hydrant, and catch the fruit before it disappears? Or just have the fruit, throw it at it, and see if you can catch it.

Another thing: When Pac Man is in midair, can he throw a bell and catch it without hitting the ground? If so, he can give himself a better OOS option than grab for when he tries to get back up from the ledge.

OK, The only fruits I know are stopped by the hydrant water are the cherry, strawberry, and apple. All the other fruits fly in a direction. The melon goes straight up, the orange goes diagonally, the Galaxian goes up then across, the bell does a wacky direction that ends up landing just behind you after being in the air for a while.

I'm not able to catch a bell in midair because it flies too high and too far away from PAC-MAN, since he can't move for a bit after he throws it and his jump isn't fast nor far enough to catch it when the bell comes down.

 

[Nu~]

OK, The only fruits I know are stopped by the hydrant water are the cherry, strawberry, and apple. All the other fruits fly in a direction. The melon goes straight up, the orange goes diagonally, the Galaxian goes up then across, the bell does a wacky direction that ends up landing just behind you after being in the air for a while.

I'm not able to catch a bell in midair because it flies too high and too far away from PAC-MAN, since he can't move for a bit after he throws it and his jump isn't fast nor far enough to catch it when the bell comes down.

You have to hit the hydrant before the water gets to it. Then it'll bounce off and you can catch it

 

[BSP]

OK, The only fruits I know are stopped by the hydrant water are the cherry, strawberry, and apple. All the other fruits fly in a direction. The melon goes straight up, the orange goes diagonally, the Galaxian goes up then across, the bell does a wacky direction that ends up landing just behind you after being in the air for a while.

I'm not able to catch a bell in midair because it flies too high and too far away from PAC-MAN, since he can't move for a bit after he throws it and his jump isn't fast nor far enough to catch it when the bell comes down.

Thanks for testing the bell.

And what Pacman9 said. I meant just hitting the hydrant, preferably before the first gush of water since in real time, waiting that long can leave you vulnerable.

 

[bekindrewind]

Can we discuss the matchup between PAC-MAN and ZSS? I think I need to improve on it much more and we as a whole could always use some food for thought for our buddy PAC-MAN.

 

[Nu~]

To start it off,
Don't let her get too close and we win.
Our hydrants stop her blaster shots so there's that.
This is all theory btw
Anyone have matchup experience?

 

[revengeska]

Discuss

I know I'm a little late to the party on responding to this, but it didn't really seem to be properly addressed. The crux of his argument seems to come from Pac-Man seemingly having unsafe approach options and his camping options not making up for it.

The problem with this argument is that EVERY character has the problem of their moves being punishable, admittedly to varying degrees. What Pac-Man does have going for him is the ability to switch up options and strategies according to the opponent's weaknesses. My roommate has played my Pac-Man extensively and have watched me play him in 1v1 For Glory, and has noted my Pac-Man's ability to change strategies mid-match on a dime from a slower stage control strategy to aggressively rushing in to an opponent and constantly putting pressure on with a variety of quick moves. I played Pac-Man exclusively at a recent tournament, an one of my opponents said that he was thrown off completely by my Pac-Man.

I don't consider myself an exceptional Pac-Man. I haven't even begun using Bonus Fruits even half-effectively, much less practiced Z-dropping. I use the trampoline as a measure of control far less than I should. This in my opinion is scary. If a character's ability to adapt well to an opponent's strategies is of major importance in this game, Pac-Man will likely end up at least high tier. This is why the discussion he's trying create should be centered around individual match-ups and not an overall theme, because with the variability in matchups and themes it's going to be impossible to come to many usefully accurate conclusions.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

@ revengeska

You're absolutely right, Pac-Man is so many archetypes in one.
He's a:

-Trap character (Set down Hydrant and Trampoline and punish)
-Zoning character (Hide behind Hydrant and Trampoline, play with fruit)
-Rushdown character (Aerials and DTilt)
-Walling character (Fruit into fruit into fruit into fruit)
-Punish character (There's a fruit for every angle)

And with one launch of the hydrant and a throw of a fruit, he changes the pace.

 

[BSP]

So could someone test out whether or not we can set up a hydrant and:

Charge up an Orange/Apple/Melon, throw it at the hydrant, and catch the fruit before it disappears? Or just have the fruit, throw it at it, and see if you can catch it.

Another thing: When Pac Man is in midair, can he throw a bell and catch it without hitting the ground? If so, he can give himself a better OOS option than grab for when he tries to get back up from the ledge.

So yeah, I got to test this out. I was unable to grab orange and apple off of hitting the hydrant unfortunately.

On the plus side, getting a key in hand opens up a lot of shenanigans.

 

[LanceStern]

To start it off,
Don't let her get too close and we win.
Our hydrants stop her blaster shots so there's that.
This is all theory btw
Anyone have matchup experience?

More tips:

If her bouncing fish hits your shield you can punish it every time with up smash (chase her)
Keys and Oranges are beautiful in the matchup.
Watch out for her charge shot, and stupid dash attack. No fun getting hit by those.
Jabs are useful in getting her away from you if she decides to be aggressive.
DON'T challenge her if you're above her, use side B to get to the ledge or drop a hydrant

 

[dragontamer]

I'm going to have to definitely get a strong secondary if I'm going to main PacMan.

I predict Lucario to be high tier at least, due to good matchups vs Shiek and other combo characters. IMO, PacMan seems to have a good matchup vs Shiek, but a horrible matchup vs Lucario in my experience. (Actually, if Shiek has bad matchups vs Lucario and PacMan... Shiek probably won't be top. But I digress...)

When Luke gets to 130% or so (which is almost in every match, because PacMan's smash attacks are rather unsafe so I don't like throwing them out...), approaching Luke becomes a massive chore.

Note: full-stage approaches on Final D are actually amongst the easiest with Pac Man. Throw out a grounded-strawberry, and then walk behind it. "Miss" the strawberry on purpose, so that it is in front of Lucario, and you are safe from Aura Spam. You can do the same with cherry. It seems like grounded cherry also cancels out fully charged aura spheres. Its a bit less effective though, because Cherry is out for less time than strawberry.

However, closing the distance from Chery Distance to striking distance... is heavily in the defending Lucario's favor. Within Cherry distance, you don't really have any tricks to make the approach safe. Short-hop aerials (either Fair, Nair or Dair to mix things up) seems enticing, but loses out to Aura Sphere spam unless you perfectly time the jump over the aura sphere shot. I don't believe it is something I can react to, although I guess I can focus on that later.

Grounded approach options normally would work vs most characters. Usually dash -> (power) shield the projectile works vs many characters. But vs Lucario, he has a safe and quick command-grab, Force Palm, that KOs center-stage at 60% (when Lucario is at 130%+ / aura active). Any strategy relying on power-shielding is more or less voided at 130%. This means that grounded approaches favor attacks, like walking tilt or dash attack. But these approaches (from within cherry range) loses out to Lucario's superior range at high aura. (At low %, Pacman outranged Lucario. But at high%, Lucario outranges PacMan). It doesn't seem like a winning battle.

Fruit spam, the go-to option, loses out to microspheres from Lucario.

So its quite annoying. I'm going to have to rate this matchup 6.5 to 3.5 in Lucario's favor. I've seen 7-3 matchups before, and this isn't quite that hopeless, but there is definitely a strong, sizable matchup advantage towards Lucario.

It seems to me that the best strategy is to use cherry / strawberry to close to footsies distance, then charge up to high lvl fruit. Bell and Key in particular threaten to KO Lucario, or at least throw him offstage where Pacman has the advantage.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm going to have to definitely get a strong secondary if I'm going to main PacMan.

I predict Lucario to be high tier at least, due to good matchups vs Shiek and other combo characters. IMO, PacMan seems to have a good matchup vs Shiek, but a horrible matchup vs Lucario in my experience. (Actually, if Shiek has bad matchups vs Lucario and PacMan... Shiek probably won't be top. But I digress...)

When Luke gets to 130% or so (which is almost in every match, because PacMan's smash attacks are rather unsafe so I don't like throwing them out...), approaching Luke becomes a massive chore.

Note: full-stage approaches on Final D are actually amongst the easiest with Pac Man. Throw out a grounded-strawberry, and then walk behind it. "Miss" the strawberry on purpose, so that it is in front of Lucario, and you are safe from Aura Spam. You can do the same with cherry. It seems like grounded cherry also cancels out fully charged aura spheres. Its a bit less effective though, because Cherry is out for less time than strawberry.

However, closing the distance from Chery Distance to striking distance... is heavily in the defending Lucario's favor. Within Cherry distance, you don't really have any tricks to make the approach safe. Short-hop aerials (either Fair, Nair or Dair to mix things up) seems enticing, but loses out to Aura Sphere spam unless you perfectly time the jump over the aura sphere shot. I don't believe it is something I can react to, although I guess I can focus on that later.

Grounded approach options normally would work vs most characters. Usually dash -> (power) shield the projectile works vs many characters. But vs Lucario, he has a safe and quick command-grab, Force Palm, that KOs center-stage at 60% (when Lucario is at 130%+ / aura active). Any strategy relying on power-shielding is more or less voided at 130%. This means that grounded approaches favor attacks, like walking tilt or dash attack. But these approaches (from within cherry range) loses out to Lucario's superior range at high aura. (At low %, Pacman outranged Lucario. But at high%, Lucario outranges PacMan). It doesn't seem like a winning battle.

Fruit spam, the go-to option, loses out to microspheres from Lucario.

So its quite annoying. I'm going to have to rate this matchup 6.5 to 3.5 in Lucario's favor. I've seen 7-3 matchups before, and this isn't quite that hopeless, but there is definitely a strong, sizable matchup advantage towards Lucario.

It seems to me that the best strategy is to use cherry / strawberry to close to footsies distance, then charge up to high lvl fruit. Bell and Key in particular threaten to KO Lucario, or at least throw him offstage where Pacman has the advantage.

Approaching Lucario is hard? Then don't.

You have a rather superior camping game as Pac-Man
compared to Lucario, so use that to your advantage and let him
make the mistakes rather than you.

Hydrant can shield you from uncharged spheres well, and
if he's prone to throwing big ones at your hydrant
you can easily evade your broken hydrant and get some
fruit charging time.

But Pac-Man's biggest ace in the hole for winning camp
wars might be his Power Pellet. Anytime a projectile comes
your way, just block it with your pellet and heal 2%.

And for what it's worth, you should consider Pac-Man lucky
his fruit stops Aura Spheres the way it does. Most projectiles
get straight up eaten.

 

[dragontamer]

You have a rather superior camping game as Pac-Man
compared to Lucario, so use that to your advantage and let him
make the mistakes rather than you.

"Camping" is dumb. No one should be camping in this game. I do recognize that full-screen is safe for PacMan, but it is also very safe for Lucario. Neither player can do anything to each other at full screen. So now there are two options:

1. Pacman advances to Lucario
2. Lucario advances to Pacman

In either case, the matchup enters "footsie" distance. Its unavoidable. You can't avoid the footsie.

Either the PacMan player approaches to footsie distance to gain the stage positioning advantage, or the Lucario player approaches. I typically prefer to advance to footsie distance to take the stage positioning advantage... because Lucario really has no issues short-hop microsphering / wave-bouncing his way into footsie distance and capturing the advantage himself.

Hydrant can shield you from uncharged spheres well, and
if he's prone to throwing big ones at your hydrant

First: Lucario microspheres (partially charged) easily breaks hydrant in one strike at the 130%+ point. Which tells you how freaking scary microsphere pressure is. Each tiny sphere does above 10% damage, and even slightly charged ones easily break the 13% needed to launch hydrant. If I sit behind hydrant, he launches it with at most two microspheres (often only one slightly charged one).

Lemme tell you a bit about microsphere pressure. He isn't "spamming" microspheres, he's placing them, timing them at the bottom of my jumps.

Second: Lucario begins to close distance and short-hop microsphere to catch me on top of hydrant after I drop hydrant. I'm not playing a "dumb" spammy Lucario. He sometimes even catches me during hydrant animation. Yes yes yes, I know that means I'm getting "read" with dropping the hydrant, but my point is that the opponent can easily predict the hydrant and smack me with microspheres.

Third: Falling back onto the stage from an elevated platform is a massive disadvantage. Standing on Hydrant while it gets launched == potential KO. The Lucario player is very good at timing Aura Spheres on the bottom of my jumps, so I'm often forced to use my 2nd jump + quickfall to get back to the stage safely after Hydrant.

Its a very small disadvantage to 2nd jump + quickfall, but Lucario is patient when I'm in the air, and attacks me at this point (Lucario does short-hop fair or Short-hop nairs). I could "land on" Lucario, but the risk of up-tilt or force palm is too great.

The grounded approach game seems like PacMan's best option.

--------

I don't know if its worse to be hit by an approaching Lucario Short-hopped Microspheres, or if its worse to be hit by your own hydrant from microsphere pressure. But both situations are pretty bad. In either case, you are left without hydrant and are left in the same position.

I've found that the best use of hydrant is an emergency 4th jump to mix up landing speed. But I can't find a use of hydrant in the Lucario matchup beyond that.

you can easily evade your broken hydrant and get some
fruit charging time.

I have no issues charging fruit. That's not the issue. I am confident that I can enter the footsie with whatever fruit I want (I can let Lucario charge at me from full screen).

My issue is winning the footsie. Which PacMan most decidedly does not do. BTW: Cherry / Strawberry is my fruit of choice in footsies. There's no point charging fruit when Cherry / Strawberry is frankly the best.

But Pac-Man's biggest ace in the hole for winning camp
wars might be his Power Pellet. Anytime a projectile comes
your way, just block it with your pellet and heal 2%.

I'll be honest. I didn't try the power-pellet technique. But it seems very unlikely that it'd work against the Lucario player I'm thinking about.

Speaking of footsie distance... have you ever eaten a smash attack in response to a poorly placed FTilt? That's the level of Lucario that I'm talking about. Lucario's Forward Smash takes a microstep backwards, and he's quite good at footsieing inside of my range to bait a FTilt and punishing with Forward Smash.

And that's what I'm talking about. The risk/reward at footsie range is completely out of whack against Lucario. If I land my FTilt, I get an advantage in air combat, which is nice. If he lands a 130% Aura Forward Smash, I'm straight up dead. Which is very nice for the Lucario player.

It doesn't help that well-spaced Lucario FSmashes are basically unpunishable unless I sidestep, or short-hop over it. Both of which put me in a precarious situation. (Opponent is good enough to punish sidesteps, short-hops put me in the air against his microspheres. A bad situation). I'm guessing that I just need to power-shield those FSmashes, but I've got my shield broken before by two microspheres + forward smash. So I'm not inclined to shield against a high-aura Lucario.

Preempting his smash attack with my own seems dumb. Dash attack to close the distance also seems dumb. I guess I can perfect-pivot into jabs, but unfortunately I'm not at that level yet. :-(

I have no issues against Lucario at full screen. Period. Its at "footsie" distance where Lucario offers extreme pressure against PacMan. Either PacMan can close the distance to "footsie" or Lucario can short-hop microsphere / b-reversal his way into the distance. In either case, the Lucario player is well aware of this "blind spot" of Pacman, and positions himself inside of it.

And for what it's worth, you should consider Pac-Man lucky
his fruit stops Aura Spheres the way it does. Most projectiles
get straight up eaten.

While true. He's also quite adept at shield-canceling his Aura Spheres and catching my fruit. Then sending aura sphere spam my way, while holding my fruit... preventing me from fruit pressure.

My way around that is simply using fruit as a defensive / offensive measure, or by approaching behind the fruit and punishing his catching animation. But once I close the distance to "footsie" distance, I get stuck without a gameplan and lose.

High-level fruit, like Galaxian, Bell, and Key do a lot better. But that's a long way to charge and not a very strong advantage. Key puts some mental pressure on the Lucario, and he stops using Microspheres... alleviating the pressure significantly.

But similarly, if I hold onto key, then I enter footsies without cherry / strawberry spam. And I think that's the issue... the fruit of choice during footsies is cherry / strawberry. And I feel like I'd rather have cherry / strawberry to mess up Lucario's footsie gameplan, rather than Key.

Don't underestimate short-hop retreating cherry. It messes people up.

 

[Nu~]

Would the trampoline help in footsie distance? It nullifies shields and has quite a large hotbox when activated. You can use it as sort of an eject button to draw the line between you and your opponent's space. If you use it when lucario is close to the ledge, this puts him in a horrible position since he's too close to use aura spheres and either has to jump or let you charge your fruit

 

[WeirdChillFever]

DTilt comes in where Lucs FSmash steps out.
Just Saiyan.

 

[Firedemon0]

First: Lucario microspheres (partially charged) easily breaks hydrant in one strike at the 130%+ point. Which tells you how freaking scary microsphere pressure is. Each tiny sphere does above 10% damage, and even slightly charged ones easily break the 13% needed to launch hydrant. If I sit behind hydrant, he launches it with at most two microspheres (often only one slightly charged one).

Lemme tell you a bit about microsphere pressure. He isn't "spamming" microspheres, he's placing them, timing them at the bottom of my jumps. He short-hops in response to hydrant.

Second: Lucario begins to close distance and short-hop microsphere to catch me on top of hydrant after I drop hydrant. I'm not playing a "dumb" spammy Lucario. He sometimes even catches me during hydrant animation. Yes yes yes, I know that means I'm getting "read" with dropping the hydrant, but my point is that the opponent can easily predict the hydrant and smack me with microspheres.

Third: Falling back onto the stage from an elevated platform is a massive disadvantage. Standing on Hydrant while it gets launched == potential KO. The Lucario player is very good at timing Aura Spheres on the bottom of my jumps, so I'm often forced to use my 2nd jump + quickfall to get back to the stage safely after Hydrant.

Its a very small disadvantage to 2nd jump + quickfall, but Lucario is patient when I'm in the air, and attacks me at this point. And I don't like "falling on" Lucario's ridiculously good up-tilt.

--------

I don't know if its worse to be hit by an approaching Lucario Short-hopped Microspheres, or if its worse to be hit by your own hydrant from microsphere pressure. But both situations are pretty bad. In either case, you are left without hydrant and are left in the same position.

I've found that the best use of hydrant is an emergency 4th jump to mix up landing speed. But I can't find a use of hydrant in the Lucario matchup beyond that.



I'll be honest. I didn't try the power-pellet technique. But it seems very unlikely that it'd work against the Lucario player I'm thinking about.

The Lucario player I'm talking about is well aware of this magic distance of magical advantage for Lucario. Either he will approach to close the gap (leaving me with less stage to retreat to), or I do, which means I can always walk backwards to reset the situation.

You can't avoid the footsie. Either the PacMan player approaches to footsie distance to gain the stage positioning advantage, or the Lucario player approaches. I typically prefer to advance to footsie distance to take the stage positioning advantage... because Lucario really has no issues short-hop microsphering / b-reversing his way into footsie distance.

Speaking of footsie distance... have you ever eaten a smash attack in response to a poorly placed FTilt? That's the level of Lucario that I'm talking about. Lucario's Forward Smash takes a microstep backwards, and he's quite good at footsieing inside of my range to bait a FTilt and punishing with Forward Smash.

And that's what I'm talking about. The risk/reward at footsie range is completely out of whack against Lucario. If I land my FTilt, I get an advantage in air combat, which is nice. If he lands a 130% Aura Forward Smash, I'm straight up dead.

It doesn't help that well-spaced Lucario FSmashes are basically unpunishable unless I sidestep, or short-hop over it. Both of which put me in a precarious situation. (Opponent is good enough to punish sidesteps, short-hops put me in the air against his microspheres. A bad situation). I'm guessing that I just need to power-shield those FSmashes, but I've got my shield broken before by two microspheres + forward smash. So I'm not inclined to shield against a high-aura Lucario.

I have no issues against Lucario at full screen. Period. Its at "footsie" distance where Lucario offers extreme pressure against PacMan. Either PacMan can close the distance to "footsie" or Lucario can short-hop microsphere / b-reversal his way into the distance. In either case, the Lucario player is well aware of this "blind spot" of Pacman, and positions himself inside of it.

Personally speaking, I'd rather approach Lucario so that I have space to retreat to. If Lucario is playing defensive, I'd rather gain the advantage of retreat distance rather than for him to approach to "just outside" footsie distance, capture the middle of the stage and slowly push my "camp" towards the edge.

After all, Lucario is just a short-hop + microsphere away from closing the distance himself... capturing the stage advantage and putting us into the footsies situation anyway.



While true. He's also quite adept at shield-canceling his Aura Spheres and catching my fruit. Then sending aura sphere spam my way, while holding my fruit... preventing me from fruit pressure.

My way around that is simply using fruit as a defensive / offensive measure, or by approaching behind the fruit and punishing his catching animation. But once I close the distance to "footsie" distance, I get stuck without a gameplan and lose.

High-level fruit, like Galaxian, Bell, and Key do a lot better. But that's a long way to charge and not a very strong advantage. Key puts some mental pressure on the Lucario, and he stops using Microspheres... alleviating the pressure significantly.

But similarly, I don't have the cherries / strawberries I need to close distance safely. So I really don't like holding onto the Key.

This sounds more like an issue with this player knowing your play style rather then the character. If they are microsphere spamming like it sounds. Even with factoring B reversal. He should not have that much room in midrange. Any kind of spam has a pattern, what happens when you attempt to side b past him? Does he make chase? Or does he follow up with a sphere and back off? You do seem to be using the block properties of fruit, but Pac-man is far from helpless without it. Does the B reversal have a pattern of going away? Does he force palm? When they grab your fruit, If all he does is spam micro spheres, does he avoid a quick Neutral air? Does he throw your fruit back in your face?

Lucario is effective with spheres. However, Apple seems to work very strongly in this match up. Lucario has a poor air to air combat compared to Pac-man, but you are familiar with that. Try down tilts as opposed to ftilts, they have slight further range.

 

[dragontamer]

I'll try DTilt next time. I don't use that move a lot, so I didn't realize it has more range than FTilt. If it beats out his FSmash I think I'll get the slight range advantage I need for this matchup.

Any kind of spam has a pattern, what happens when you attempt to side b past him? Does he make chase?

He FSmashes the landing, lol. If I Side-B further out behind him, he does a running-Force Palm and KOs me. (A quick unblockable attack KOing you at 60% is some bull)

Side-B is basically suicide because of its massive cooldown.

Lucario is effective with spheres. However, Apple seems to work very strongly in this match up. Lucario has a poor air to air combat compared to Pac-man, but you are familiar with that.

I agree that Lucario has poor air-to-air combat, and when Apple hits it does give me a massive advantage.

But landing it in practice seems pretty hard. It is canceled out by a single microsphere. And whenever I jump, he gets under me and starts threatening up-tilts. At "full screen", he only throws microspheres to punish my landing (forcing me to use double-jumps and quick-landings to safely reach the ground again).

He's also quite aware of "Apple distance", and typically positions himself either under me (too close, within "Apple's Blind spot", where he threatens up-tilts on my landing), or well behind the apple where he can safely cancel it out with a microsphere after it lands and starts bouncing.

I can close the distance by running behind the Apple, no problem. The problem is the footsie fight that happens after I close the distance. I can also try again with another Apple... but I definitely feel like jumping gives me a disadvantage in the fight.

I'll tell you the pattern. He times the aura-spheres to hit me when I'm landing, baiting the double-jump and attacks me from the ground when I'm out of jumps. Hydrant is extremely useful for getting an "extra jump" in to mess up his timing, and quick-falls are useful for getting back safely on the ground.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Side-B is basically suicide because of its massive cooldown.

It isnt so bad if you finish it aerially. You can also try going really high and hydrant dropping although that could become predictable.

Also has the added bonus of killing him before he gets to the 130% mark. If you believe you are completely screwed when he reaches that mark anyway, you may as well roll the dice before then, hey?

 

[dragontamer]

It isnt so bad if you finish it aerially. You can also try going really high and hydrant dropping although that could become predictable.

Also has the added bonus of killing him before he gets to the 130% mark. If you believe you are completely screwed when he reaches that mark anyway, you may as well roll the dice before then, hey?

He doesn't ever stand directly below me. I've caught him too many times with that, lol. This Lucario is pretty familiar with my PacMan.

 

[Firedemon0]

I'll try DTilt next time. I don't use that move a lot, so I didn't realize it has more range than FTilt. If it beats out his FSmash I think I'll get the slight range advantage I need for this matchup.



He FSmashes the landing, lol. If I Side-B further out behind him, he does a running-Force Palm and KOs me. (A quick unblockable attack KOing you at 60% is some bull)

Side-B is basically suicide because of its massive cooldown.



I agree that Lucario has poor air-to-air combat, and when Apple hits it does give me a massive advantage.

But landing it in practice seems pretty hard. It is canceled out by a single microsphere. And whenever I jump, he gets under me and starts threatening up-tilts. At "full screen", he only throws microspheres to punish my landing (forcing me to use double-jumps and quick-landings to safely reach the ground again).

He's also quite aware of "Apple distance", and typically positions himself either under me (too close, within "Apple's Blind spot", where he threatens up-tilts on my landing), or well behind the apple where he can safely cancel it out with a microsphere after it lands and starts bouncing.

I can close the distance by running behind the Apple, no problem. The problem is the footsie fight that happens after I close the distance. I can also try again with another Apple... but I definitely feel like jumping gives me a disadvantage in the fight.

I'll tell you the pattern. He times the aura-spheres to hit me when I'm landing, baiting the double-jump and attacks me from the ground when I'm out of jumps. Hydrant is extremely useful for getting an "extra jump" in to mess up his timing, and quick-falls are useful for getting back safely on the ground.

OK, for the Side-B suggestion, use it past him to ledge, if you angle it slightly upwards at the end, you will go past, fall and autosnap. Should avoid any dangerous followup if I am reading this correctly.

It sounds most like this player is trying to force you into landing lag. Fast fall Shield should work to condition him to change it up. I noticed a lack him grabbing from your descriptions as well, so power shielding while walking would be an effective advance option, and even then, Nair OOS would be an awesome counter to any attempts to grab you. I personally like to hug anyone I play as Pac-man, I stick like glue if I can help it, pressure actually sounds like a great way to force him out of his patterns.

Maybe next time you play is it possible to save a replay and post it to the video thread? It would make suggestions a bit easier to be honest.

 

[Nu~]

If you ever want to kill early with side B, catch a get up or roll. That's how I finish stocks quickly

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Side B high into an apple could be a good, but predictable mix-up.

 

[dragontamer]

OK, for the Side-B suggestion, use it past him to ledge, if you angle it slightly upwards at the end, you will go past, fall and autosnap. Should avoid any dangerous followup if I am reading this correctly.

Sounds like a good idea, I'll try that. I feel like he positions himself too closely to the ledge often... I'm unsure if he recognizes the advantage I'm capturing by advancing towards him. Exchanging the strategic advantage for a tactical one is a mixup option I'm willing to try.

It sounds most like this player is trying to force you into landing lag. Fast fall Shield should work to condition him to change it up. I noticed a lack him grabbing from your descriptions as well, so power shielding while walking would be an effective advance option, and even then, Nair OOS would be an awesome counter to any attempts to grab you. I personally like to hug anyone I play as Pac-man, I stick like glue if I can help it, pressure actually sounds like a great way to force him out of his patterns.

Lack of him grabbing me is due to my effort. I don't play the power-shield game because that is his goal at 130%.

He plays passively to bait me into the power-shield game. Then one short-hop forcepalm command-grab later, its all over. KOing Pacman at 60% from center-stage with a command-grab is all the mental pressure he needs to do, and he knows it.

He also uses Force Palm at max range to zone me, switching things up between Aura Spheres. I catch him with short-hop nairs however, so I think this is a mistake on his part.

He does use basic running grabs as well, to mix things up. I'm not going to beat him out in the "reads" game, we're both pretty good at being unpredictable at each other. He uses B-Reversals mainly to switchup his short-hop aurasphere approach options and make things unpredictable. You know, because if he's predictable then I punish him.

Maybe next time you play is it possible to save a replay and post it to the video thread? It would make suggestions a bit easier to be honest.

Fair enough. I was thinking about that, but I'll have to set things up quite a bit. Its his WiiU and I'll have to get my video recording equipment over + a laptop.

-------------

The more important thing though, is I switch to Robin and all of a sudden, I have an easier matchup against him. Robin's approach is simply more threatening due to ElFires, Arc Thunders, Short-hop LSFairs and Nosfaratsu command grabs. It forces the Lucario to approach to Robin, and I definitely take more wins as Robin than my PacMan.

Which is a shame, because I have a lot more practice with PacMan. Its clear though that the Robin vs Lucario is obviously an easier matchup than Pacman vs Lucario.

On the other hand, Robin has issues vs fast characters like Shiek and Capt. Falcon... of whom PacMan is so good against. So I'm still gonna main PacMan, but "picking up Robin" is a very easy option to this guy's Lucario honestly.

 

[BSP]

@ D dragontamer Time Lucario out.


I'm serious. I feel like Sonic is the same way.

 

[dragontamer]

@ BSP At least Sonic straight up gets murdered by the Melon. Melon out-prioritizes almost all of his approach options, and gives you the "in" you need.

Sonic's neutral B is also murdered by PacMan's up-tilt. Melon on the ground, up-tilt his aerials (invincibility frames on up-tilt means you win vs all of Sonic's aerials with proper timing). PacMan ought to beat out Sonic's approach in my experience. Its a bit annoying because the standard goto option of F-Tilts and lower-level fruit don't work against Sonic's dash attacks.

But Melon is the key to winning on the ground. It takes a while to charge though, and Sonic approaches very fast.

I admit that Lucario does not like getting pelted from "above" with fruit. But I can accomplish that with cherry, strawberry, and apple. (Short-hop Cherry, Short-hop Strawberry, full-hop apple). Maybe I should focus on my cherry / strawberry / apple game a little bit more at this magic distance.

But I have tried that, and hitting Lucario with an 4% Cherry or 8% Strawberry does not seem like a good trade against a 10%+ micro aura sphere... or something like 20%+KO Potential from a more moderately charged aura. I'm almost inclined to play defensively with cherry / strawberry because "trading projectiles" is also heavily in favor of Lucario.

Short-hop cherry / Short-hop Strawberry hits Lucario rather consistently. But... Lucario also throws out a partially charged aura sphere and hits me too.

 

[meleebrawler]

@ D dragontamer , a word about camping...

You may not like it, but some characters just
lend themselves naturally to it. Can you picture Villager
playing an aggressive footsie game effectively?
It's a part of the game that we all have to learn to either
use or deal with in order to better ourselves.

I feel that we should both make sure we have an understanding
of what "camping" is. It's basically getting yourself in a relatively
secure position that the enemy cannot approach easily, from
where you can attack relatively safely. Perhaps the more correct term
is zoning, or maybe even walling.

Obviously you can't camp all game, and if you did
your enemy likely wasn't very good at all (or just completely
lost focus). But if you camp well, by the time they do
manage to get to you, you'll be ready for them.

Pac-Man has the tools to perform the strategy I described:
a projectile to attack from safety (fruit), a trap that puts the opponent
at a disadvantage should they trigger it (trampoline) and an obstacle
that disrupts approaches and can also double as a projectile (hydrant).

Now, the beauty of Pac-Man is that because of the flexibility
of the tools he has, he is not really restricted to one particular playstyle.
Like @ revengeska mentioned, he can change strategies on the fly.
Many characters have to look to their custom moves to adapt, but Pac
doesn't have to. So if you prefer to play somewhat aggressively
with his tools, that's fine; but sometimes, the same strategy doesn't
always work.

 

[bekindrewind]

@ D dragontamer , a word about camping...

You may not like it, but some characters just
lend themselves naturally to it. Can you picture Villager
playing an aggressive footsie game effectively?
It's a part of the game that we all have to learn to either
use or deal with in order to better ourselves.

I feel that we should both make sure we have an understanding
of what "camping" is. It's basically getting yourself in a relatively
secure position that the enemy cannot approach easily, from
where you can attack relatively safely. Perhaps the more correct term
is zoning, or maybe even walling.

Obviously you can't camp all game, and if you did
your enemy likely wasn't very good at all (or just completely
lost focus). But if you camp well, by the time they do
manage to get to you, you'll be ready for them.

Pac-Man has the tools to perform the strategy I described:
a projectile to attack from safety (fruit), a trap that puts the opponent
at a disadvantage should they trigger it (trampoline) and an obstacle
that disrupts approaches and can also double as a projectile (hydrant).

Now, the beauty of Pac-Man is that because of the flexibility
of the tools he has, he is not really restricted to one particular playstyle.
Like @ revengeska mentioned, he can change strategies on the fly.
Many characters have to look to their custom moves to adapt, but Pac
doesn't have to. So if you prefer to play somewhat aggressively
with his tools, that's fine; but sometimes, the same strategy doesn't
always work.

Some people would complain that someone camps with a character like PAC-MAN against someone like Charizard on an omega stage, when really the projectile spamming is very advantageous for PAC-MAN in that setup. Why criticize an advantage I have? Doesn't mean it's a dominant strategy though, but it is good for situations like that.

 

[Firedemon0]

Some people would complain that someone camps with a character like PAC-MAN against someone like Charizard on an omega stage, when really the projectile spamming is very advantageous for PAC-MAN in that setup. Why criticize an advantage I have? Doesn't mean it's a dominant strategy though, but it is good for situations like that.

While he is capable of camping across stages, it isn't really effective game play style because of the time limit almost all tournaments have. Pac-man has enough trouble to kill as it is, his combo game is much more potent starting from mid-range then just flinging fruit and hydrants across FD. It also becomes very predictable and forms bad habits if you avoid close range. I am not saying he can pull a Diddy Kong or Shiek with his combos, but he does have the tools available to effectively poke and work his way into the patterns of his opponents.

He even has an attack that cannot be beat by any avoidance. His up-B is hell for any highly defensive player. His move set is definitely more aggressively leaning then it seems. He can put up constant pressure if used properly.

 

[bekindrewind]

While he is capable of camping across stages, it isn't really effective game play style because of the time limit almost all tournaments have. Pac-man has enough trouble to kill as it is, his combo game is much more potent starting from mid-range then just flinging fruit and hydrants across FD. It also becomes very predictable and forms bad habits if you avoid close range. I am not saying he can pull a Diddy Kong or Shiek with his combos, but he does have the tools available to effectively poke and work his way into the patterns of his opponents.

He even has an attack that cannot be beat by any avoidance. His up-B is hell for any highly defensive player. His move set is definitely more aggressively leaning then it seems. He can put up constant pressure if used properly.

Not saying I recommend it, but in the right situation it can be effective.

But don't rely on it. Ever.

 

[PacDaddy]

While he is capable of camping across stages, it isn't really effective game play style because of the time limit almost all tournaments have. Pac-man has enough trouble to kill as it is, his combo game is much more potent starting from mid-range then just flinging fruit and hydrants across FD. It also becomes very predictable and forms bad habits if you avoid close range. I am not saying he can pull a Diddy Kong or Shiek with his combos, but he does have the tools available to effectively poke and work his way into the patterns of his opponents.

He even has an attack that cannot be beat by any avoidance. His up-B is hell for any highly defensive player. His move set is definitely more aggressively leaning then it seems. He can put up constant pressure if used properly.

While this does have a lot of merit, I think every match comes down to not only the specific mu but also the player you're facing. For instance, if my opponent is a rush down character like falcon, I'm going to space the stage out, force him to approach on my terms by using trampoline and whittle him down with good fruit play. On the other hand, if I play someone like robin, who has a better projectile game, I'm going to approach every time.

The beauty of pac-man is how versatile he is; some players you will face are going to be balls to the wall aggro, and we have tools for that (trampoline to escape pretty much any bad situation, hydrant to buy time/make space, quick cherries and strawberries to halt approaches). Others are going to be campy/ defensive, and we have tools for that too. (hydrant mix ups, aggresive trampoline, close range tilt/aeriel game, good key usage.)

I don't think theres ever a time where you should have a cookie cutter mindset when you go into a game as pac-man. Some games I'm gonna play lame as hell because that's what's going to get the job done, other games its going to be a slugfest.

 

[dragontamer]

Pac-Man has the tools to perform the strategy I described:
a projectile to attack from safety (fruit), a trap that puts the opponent
at a disadvantage should they trigger it (trampoline) and an obstacle
that disrupts approaches and can also double as a projectile (hydrant).[/USER]

Not in the Lucario matchup at high %.

Fruits are canceled out by the smallest Lucario microsphere, and Lucario can spam those out much faster than Pacman can throw fruit.

Hydrant gets launched by two microspheres, or by one moderately charged sphere. Hydrant is definitely not an option. I've been KOed by my own Hydrant too many times from a Lucario microsphere before I even have a chance to Bair it.

So no, Hydrant doesn't set you up for anything vs Lucario. Its good as an offensive ledge-guard setup, or a punish as Lucario attempts to get back (Bair->jab). But Hydrant in the majority of the high-aura Lucario matchup is a significant disadvantage to Pacman. Lucario gets first dibs to launch the hydrant because of the density of his spheres.

Trampoline helps out whichever character is camping. Fruit and Hydrant lose out to Lucario, so Trampoline because _his_ tool, not mine.

I kid you not, a single attack from Lucario deals with PacMan's entire "camp" game, especially at high percentages when single microspheres start launching the hydrant. That neutral B puts some major pressure on Pacman, forcing you to approach. I'm not sure if you've played this matchup as much as me actually, because just a few minutes against a high-% Lucario really should prove to you that fruit spam is about the worst strategy against Lucario in Pacman's toolkit.

-----------------

The Lucario Matchup isn't like Charizard, Gannondorf, or Little Mac EZ fruit-spam stroll to victory. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Lucario has the superior camping game, forcing PacMan to come up with a different strategy.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Fruit may be cancelled by microspheres easiliy, but Fruit comes in many different trajectories, with the first four charges having four different trajectories.

Maybe try mix-up instead of Strawberry and Cherry only?

 

[meleebrawler]

Not in the Lucario matchup at high %.

Fruits are canceled out by the smallest Lucario microsphere, and Lucario can spam those out much faster than Pacman can throw fruit.

Hydrant gets launched by two microspheres, or by one moderately charged sphere. Hydrant is definitely not an option. I've been KOed by my own Hydrant too many times from a Lucario microsphere before I even have a chance to Bair it.

So no, Hydrant doesn't set you up for anything vs Lucario. Its good as an offensive ledge-guard setup, or a punish as Lucario attempts to get back (Bair->jab). But Hydrant in the majority of the high-aura Lucario matchup is a significant disadvantage to Pacman. Lucario gets first dibs to launch the hydrant because of the density of his spheres.

Trampoline helps out whichever character is camping. Fruit and Hydrant lose out to Lucario, so Trampoline because _his_ tool, not mine.

I kid you not, a single attack from Lucario deals with PacMan's entire "camp" game, especially at high percentages when single microspheres start launching the hydrant. That neutral B puts some major pressure on Pacman, forcing you to approach. I'm not sure if you've played this matchup as much as me actually, because just a few minutes against a high-% Lucario really should prove to you that fruit spam is about the worst strategy against Lucario in Pacman's toolkit.

-----------------

The Lucario Matchup isn't like Charizard, Gannondorf, or Little Mac EZ fruit-spam stroll to victory. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Lucario has the superior camping game, forcing PacMan to come up with a different strategy.

That post wasn't intended to help with the Lucario matchup.
You just called camping stupid as if it shouldn't exist.

But just because he can break the hydrant easily doesn't
strictly mean it isn't helpful. Does he always break it with spheres?
You can punish close-range attacks on the hydrant, but if they
stay back you get some breathing room for fruit charging,
even if only for a second.

Trampoline isn't too helpful against static-bent opponents, true,
but Lucario isn't going to kill you with partially charged spheres,
they just help him make openings. Trampoline denies these openings.
Also try looking in the thread dedicated to the move
to find some other uses for the trampoline applicable
to most characters... such as putting it on the edge to
cover getups.

If you still think you can't win at a distance or closer up,
maybe try a page from our little friend G&W and hop around
evasively and avoid committing too hard like your life depended
on it.

 

[dragontamer]

Fruit may be cancelled by microspheres easiliy, but Fruit comes in many different trajectories, with the first four charges having four different trajectories.

Maybe try mix-up instead of Strawberry and Cherry only?

I do mixup. But lets go down the list.

1. Cherry -- I use a lot
2. Strawberry -- I use a lot
3. Orange -- Absolutely useless vs Lucario. Canceled by microsphere. Unless you combo into it offstage for a gimp, or maybe off of dthrow or something, it isn't useful in the neutral game vs Lucario.
4. Apple -- I use a lot.
5. Melon -- Worse than Orange. Microspheres cancel, moves slowly. While this fruit is very useful in many matchups because of its priority, its priority just isn't enough vs high-aura Lucario
6. Galaxian -- Takes a very long time to charge till here, does seem to beat out microspheres. You have to power-shield two or three microspheres from Lucario before you get to this point. If you fail to power-shield, your shield is low enough that it'd be breakable. Going this long is a pretty big risk IMO.
7. Bell -- Great KO potential, but again, very slow to bring out.
8. Key -- Good KO potential, but gets canceled out by moderately charged spheres.

There's a reason why I use Cherry / Strawberry the most, because they're the best fruit in the Lucario matchup. Apple is also good, but the slower charge speed barely makes it any better than Cherry / Strawberry.

Besides, my opponent knows how fruit works. Fruit always cycles through the same order, and he is quite adept at seeing the apple and moving out of Apple's "position" when it pops up.

Trampoline isn't too helpful against static-bent opponents, true,
but Lucario isn't going to kill you with partially charged spheres,

But Lucario can kill you with moderately charged spheres.

And at 60%, he KOs you with an unblockable command grab. Whereas PacMan has to find a strategy that safely gets Lucario to 150%+ for the majority of his KO moves.

 

[PacDaddy]

Alright, while this is mostly based on for-glory experience, I've been having an awful time fighting ike/shulk. I'm going to lump them together because for all-intensive purposes they're both pretty similar in how they can punish us.

I find it really hard to space them out because hydrant is pretty negligible in this matchup. They're sword range and power makes quick work of any hydrants I throw out. I've tried using offensive/zoning trampolines against them but again, neither of them mind being in the air and their aeriels plus sword length are really dangerous when they approach. I can space them a bit with good fruit play but a good shulk/ike will be bearing down on me so hard that a lot of times I'm just using strawberry/melon to buy me time.

So pretty much, I've conceded that this matchup has to be fought aggressively and up close, but the problem is I'm not really sure how to approach. A good Shulk especially I've found hard to deal with because his counter is just so effective against a lot of my approaches. I also feel like even when I get in, that if I don't play it damn near perfect, I'm going to get punished really hard because of their power. Add to this how heavy they are and how hard it is to kill, and these matchups have been a night mare.

Anyone else have a similar experience? Any tips?

 

[bekindrewind]

Alright, while this is mostly based on for-glory experience, I've been having an awful time fighting ike/shulk. I'm going to lump them together because for all-intensive purposes they're both pretty similar in how they can punish us.

I find it really hard to space them out because hydrant is pretty negligible in this matchup. They're sword range and power makes quick work of any hydrants I throw out. I've tried using offensive/zoning trampolines against them but again, neither of them mind being in the air and their aeriels plus sword length are really dangerous when they approach. I can space them a bit with good fruit play but a good shulk/ike will be bearing down on me so hard that a lot of times I'm just using strawberry/melon to buy me time.

So pretty much, I've conceded that this matchup has to be fought aggressively and up close, but the problem is I'm not really sure how to approach. A good Shulk especially I've found hard to deal with because his counter is just so effective against a lot of my approaches. I also feel like even when I get in, that if I don't play it damn near perfect, I'm going to get punished really hard because of their power. Add to this how heavy they are and how hard it is to kill, and these matchups have been a night mare.

Anyone else have a similar experience? Any tips?

Ike is all about spacing and punishing. His attacks are slow and give him respect sometimes.

He also can't deal well with fruit other than using an attack to null it or shield.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Well spaced fruit can rack up good damage.