Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[Paper Maribro]

How do you guys approach Dedede? The gordos are such a ***** to deal with and the recovery frames on his smashes are very difficult to punish. I've only experienced this on For Glory. Could it be I'm not used to the lag so I'm missing these punishes by a few frames?

Literally any hitbox seems to reflect Gordos back at Dedede so dont even worry about the Super Armour frames. You can just side b straight at him if its right at the start of a match and get him with the Gordo and then, if youre lucky, the rest of PP move.

 

[DrakeRowan]

My hardest matchup with Pac right now are aggressive Marth/Lucina's. Spaced ftilt's are very good at pressuring PacMan. You could OoS UpB; however, they'll just punish you on the way down. You can't really go aggro either as counter is a thing. This means you'll have to play the defensive game, but herein lies the problem. PacMan's throw is slow, causing a simple Jab from Marth/Lucina to stop it. You can't shield camp effectively either cause of Shield Breaker. The best Pac can do is to spam fruit and rely on Hydrant shenanigans.

 

[BlueTier]

Anyone have any tips for fighting an arrow spamming Link? They knock off my hydrants and whenever I try to approach them they grab me and punish hard. I try to trampoline them but they just wait and spam arrows,bombs, and boomerangs..

 

[Paper Maribro]

Anyone have any tips for fighting an arrow spamming Link? They knock off my hydrants and whenever I try to approach them they grab me and punish hard. I try to trampoline them but they just wait and spam arrows,bombs, and boomerangs..

Find a way to get up in their grill. There will be one way or another of doing so but you have to be able to otherwise you're screwed. Rolling, approaching aerially, anything will do. It's not gonna be perfect by any means but when you get in close, use your faster attacks to rack up some damage on him before he can do much more on you. Link should be an easier camper to take care of than Toon Link (Faster attacks) or Samus (An utter pain the butt).

 

[BlueTier]

Find a way to get up in their grill. There will be one way or another of doing so but you have to be able to otherwise you're screwed. Rolling, approaching aerially, anything will do. It's not gonna be perfect by any means but when you get in close, use your faster attacks to rack up some damage on him before he can do much more on you. Link should be an easier camper to take care of than Toon Link (Faster attacks) or Samus (An utter pain the butt).

Alright thanks

 

[Paper Maribro]

Alright thanks

Let me know how go man, best of luck to you!

 

[KiBom]

Anyone else really struggling against Rosaluma? Her down-b stops our hydrant, fruit and even our side B, putting us into helpless and giving her the pellet to eat. Luma passively shuts down all our early fruit. Any tips?

 

[Lake3ly]

So far, little Mac has been an incredibly hard match up for me. He's just so fast and his super armor goes through all of pac's moves and projectile.

The best thing I could think of was to use the trampoline on stage to force Mac into the air and then follow up with Uair or Fair. Even then I still have a really tough time.

Me personally just use pac's down smash, get him in the air, and keep him there with his side b. It can be hard to aim put it helps for me.

 

[Firedemon0]

Things I have noticed during my match ups while playing For Glory

Little Mac

I am able to bait his smashes out with hydrant, then hit him with a fair or bair for damage after super armor falls off and get away. When he is forced to recover onstage it has very high lag and you can back throw him off stage repeatedly if he does not go low. When he goes low, you can drop a hydrant, but it has to be before he up-b's. It does enough damage to throw your hydrant back into your face. You cannot wily nily try to throw him, because he will punish your slow throw. Pac seems to be vulnerable to his down smashes. Charge your fruit off stage when you get knocked off. He won't be coming after you and you can get back easy enough. I have also used Hydrant to push him into grabs, I found it is a good mixup, not something you can do repeatedly. SideB is very no no outside of recovery, he will close the distance and smash you.

Shulk

I see that people are having issues, but he is vulnerable to punishes. He has high end lag on his smashes and I can get dash attacks in very easily and can follow up with fairs. His counter is easy to bait out with Pac's air game. His attacks also make him very vulnerable to crossup bairs. His down smash is very long, but can be interrupted with a short hop nair, this does leave you open to a throw if you are not careful however. Charge fruit when he changes stances.

Greninja

I charge my fruit when he is above me. When charging fruit, it seems to block most attacks that hit. He bounces off and I can roll away. If the Greninja spams water shurikens, It does not go the full length of FD stages and you can get a quick fruit charge before they rush. You want to avoid going too high as his uair hurts badly. Hydrant also does not stop the uair animiation.

Sonic

This one is brutal for me. A good Sonic will run laps around Pac. However the normal pattern I have noticed in most sonic players is they will follow up downb with either uair or nair. You can try to vector out. Pac has issues grabbing Sonic as well. We also have issues gimping him because his recovery is very effective like ours. Trying to zone is rough, but Hydrant is our best bet. I try to keep Sonic between it and myself, and use the hydrants water to throw off their timing. If they are higher then you when they use the homing attack, you can up smash them, below or to the side down smash, The timing is rough, but once you get the hang of it, it becomes reactionary. Dair is one of the few moves that are easy to punish. This is your best chance to get any extra damage you can.

 

[Lake3ly]

Anyone else really struggling against Rosaluma? Her down-b stops our hydrant, fruit and even our side B, putting us into helpless and giving her the pellet to eat. Luma passively shuts down all our early fruit. Any tips?

Rosalina is definitely a hard match up for PAC users. I try to evade (roll dodge) when she launches luma and punish with a side smash. You can also just try to k.o luma and fight her 1 on 1 until another luma comes.

 

[Pacack]

You guys feeling offensive or defensive Pac more? Obviously it's going to be best to use both, but which do you prefer?

I'm more of a defensive(/reactionary) Pac myself.

 

[Lake3ly]

You guys feeling offensive or defensive Pac more? Obviously it's going to be best to use both, but which do you prefer?

I'm more of a defensive(/reactionary) Pac myself.

Definitely offensive. Side b for days for me, but that's my personal play style. It's fun to do both too. Switch it up yknow? Only characters like shulk and PAC do that for me

 

[DrakeRowan]

I'm totally defensive with my Pac. I find going on the offense isn't as rewarding than sticking to defense. Sort of reminds of an another Smash game that isn't favorably looked upon.

 

[Paper Maribro]

You guys feeling offensive or defensive Pac more? Obviously it's going to be best to use both, but which do you prefer?

I'm more of a defensive(/reactionary) Pac myself.

Sometimes you have to be on the offensive and some times you have to be on the defensive. I remember I was behind in a match against a For Glory Little Mac once, I was hanging on the ledge and knew if I got up I was doomed, so I just waited. If I fell off, I recovered. I was there fore maybe 20 seconds tops when I finally baited him into coming closer. I ledge attacked him, which gave me the necessary advantage to turn the tide of the match and win. You cannot always be on the offensive and you cannot always be on the defensive. I feel it is also somewhat matchup dependent. Like there is no point playing defensively against a Bowser, he is just eventually going to kill you. Likewise, playing against a solid ROB isnt going to involve you flying face first in every scenario and you have to be quite reactionary.

Just my two cents but given I have played 9 hours of Pac-man online and have a very solid win/loss rate I would say I somewhat know whats up.

 

[Firedemon0]

I start defensively till I can start to make out any patterns. I then change full tilt once I feel comfortable with holes in their attack.

 

[HakujouOokami]

Yo, loving Pac-Man just as much as your guys and I'm willing to throw down my two cents to an interesting match up I just had with Wario to help assist the data entry.

One major thing I've noticed is that his ground game is pretty weak compared to Pac-Man's due to the amazing Hydrant game he can use to fend off the bulbous jerk as well as the Trampoline trap to keep him in the air where he has to keep his air game. This time around, it's not so much of a threat as it was in Brawl. At least to me. A well spaced Fair can usually keep him at bay but use it sparingly since the Nair is still a good poking tool of Wario's.

Another is the motorcycle. The Trampoline is pretty much ineffective by all means of the word since he can ride over it which I thought was interesting but odd. I only saw it once during the For Glory match I had with him.

Bonus Fruit is usually a good tool to keep poking at Wario with from afar since he already has a hard time trying to get close to you and the hydrant. Power Pellet, I didn't get to use much but from what I can tell, the Motorcycle can nullify it roughly about 60% of the time if you plan on going full distance but as far as from the match I had with him, it's more than likely, you want to play keep away with him since he lost quite a handful of tricks since Brawl; i.e. His tire game.

Does not mean he can't outspeed you in kill moves. Pac-Man seems to have a hard time scoring kills with Ghost Smashes since they have taken a bit of start up lag so it's more or less an item game for you to get some thing reliable. Usually the Bell does wonders for sealing KOs since the stun around like 100-120% is sometimes guaranteed a KO with a Smash move if you're close enough.

Wario's air game is still pretty on point but keeping him off the ground will make it a little easier to set up with Trampolines and Hydrants all over again.

Wish I could put up the video of that match I had with Wario but all I have is just the footage on my SD card and I'm not sure if converting it would cripple the format altogether. Let me know if there is a way to do that and I'll show some of my matches. :3

 

[LittlePac]

****in rosalina can completely shut down your air game, hydrant game, fruit game, recovery game, every kind of game. **** rosalina. Holy ****

 

[EarthBoundRules]

How to beat Little Mac on FD:

Set up a trampoline between you and the edge. If he comes at you from the air, up smash. If he ever hits the red trampoline, forward smash or throw backwards and gimp. If he uses side-b to jump over the trampoline, spot dodge and he will fly off the edge. Just watch out for counters and make good use of your fruit! (So far this setup has been unstoppable)

 

[dragontamer]

****in rosalina can completely shut down your air game, hydrant game, fruit game, recovery game, every kind of game. **** rosalina. Holy ****

Galaga, Bell and Key are more useful vs Rosalina, since these "fruit" go through Luma.

Nonetheless, the standard fruit are essential to stopping Luma if Rosalina ever decides to neutral b.

 

[LittlePac]

That matchup is really bumming me out. It's probably gonna be a major reason pac will be low tier. I know tier predictions are lame, but i've never seen one character so completely able to hard counter another character's entire moveset.

 

[EarthBoundRules]

You guys feeling offensive or defensive Pac more? Obviously it's going to be best to use both, but which do you prefer?

I'm more of a defensive(/reactionary) Pac myself.

It depends on the matchup.

Offensive: Link, Toon Link, Pikachu, Rosalina, Robin.
Defensive: Little Mac, Duck Hunt, Yoshi, Sonic, Dark Pit, Lucina.

Note that my defensive is more of a hot-cold playstyle rather than strictly campy.

 

[KiBom]

Galaga, Bell and Key are more useful vs Rosalina, since these "fruit" go through Luma.

Nonetheless, the standard fruit are essential to stopping Luma if Rosalina ever decides to neutral b.

The Apple is also very strong as it can bounce over Luma most of the time. When she shoots luma you should be able to roll towards her and f-tilt in time too.

 

[Nu~]

That matchup is really bumming me out. It's probably gonna be a major reason pac will be low tier. I know tier predictions are lame, but i've never seen one character so completely able to hard counter another character's entire moveset.

Why would only one terrible matchup against one character, that already ***** the whole roster, leave us in low tier? lol.
I main Both Pacman and Rosalina (and Robin, with megaman as a secondary)
and I can tell you already that the matchup isn't ganon vs brawl meta knight bad. Rosalina still has speed issues, and if you can kill her luma, her kill power is pretty weak (luma is the knockback master)
Just get in her face, keep the pressure on, and kill the luma.

 

[HakujouOokami]

It depends on the matchup.

Offensive: Link, Toon Link, Pikachu, Rosalina, Robin.
Defensive: Little Mac, Duck Hunt, Yoshi, Sonic, Dark Pit, Lucina.

Note that my defensive is more of a hot-cold playstyle rather than strictly campy.

This is true that Yoshi has to be played with precise reaction to his attacks because his air game allows him little to no lag with his attacks and the fury persists even more so on the ground with his improved Smash attacks. He's not so weak to punishes but he is weak to pressure. If you can continue putting that pressure on his with your arsenal, you should be fine. Bonus Fruit from what I've seen in some matches with Yoshi has proved.. fruitful. Galaga is probably not one of the better options because of the ridiculous amount of distance Yoshi can get. Melon, I've seen do a bit of pressuring since it goes so slow but through those times, I've seen myself going on the offense in that situation but that is about it. The Hydrant, surprisingly, won't do you much help with the not so consistent times where the Hydrant will attack Yoshi when you hit it since Yoshi has that spacing game down.

I'd have to say it's kind of a 40:60 in Yoshi's favor unfortunately. Yoshi is too fast in the air but he's not without being able to be punished. Defense is probably the best way to go with this match up until you see the opening to strike.

Dark Pit.. I've had many matches with and man, I haven't really had a bad match up with Dark Pit because Pac-Man's pressure is pretty strong against him. Dark Pit's bow is too slow so he can't really snipe you from afar so that's pretty advantageous to us while Bonus Fruit goes into.. almost anything really. I haven't seen any of the Dark Pit's I've faced used the Guardian Orbitars since it doesn't really do damage, it just reflects them back but that is not to say that they won't use it so use that attack sparingly. No need for a key to come out and deck you in the mouth. :< His Up B can be wrecked with Hydrant as well if they don't hit the ledge. 9 out of 10 times, they will hit it but with such open frames like those, it's not hard to stop him from getting back. Electroshock Arm; at first, I was scared as hell about this attack because I had no idea of the Super Armor but now, it's just a matter of not beating it. Defensive is definitely the way to go for Dark Pit since most of his attacks have a bit of ending lag but many hits to it so your shield may take a beating but it's more than enough to get into his face and throw him around a bit.

Duck Hunt

That dog will camp you something fierce in this match up. Most dogs I played were pretty defensive about Pac Man and their pressure is 10 times as worse as ours. Remote control cans, Long range land mines and.. the gunman.. wall? Okay, Wild Gunman, we don't really have to care about but almost everything else we have to worry about with the Hydrant in place. More than likely, your normal Dog main will proceed to camp you with everything that it has and that is why I usually go on the offensive. Going defensive does nothing but rack up damage on you since you need to be on that dog to stop him from getting too strong. Getting in close would resort the dog to going for Smash moves on the most part. The weakness of the dog is getting him in the air. The air game isn't really all that good since ending lag for the majority of the attacks persist for quite a while once they land. So it's usually a good time to have a Bonus Fruit in hand when that happens.

The Up B for Duck Hunt has good recovery but it's pretty bad seeing as how you can't cancel out of the attack when you need to and that leaves the dog wide open to an array of hurt. Trampoline with caution since Duck Hunt will try to avoid any distance closing at all costs.

I'll post more info as the time comes.

 

[LittlePac]

I'm totally defensive with my Pac. I find going on the offense isn't as rewarding than sticking to defense. Sort of reminds of an another Smash game that isn't favorably looked upon.

I am more of a rushdown type of fighter, but I have come to this conclusion as well with Pac at least. I've found myself playing very campy (except against projectile spammers like link or DHD).

I'll throw down a hydrant, immediately jump and start charging a fruit - they pretty much have to jump at you to approach you, so i will toss out an orange if they jump, and an apple if they don't. the apple bounces a few times, which people don't really expect all the time, so if you throw it a little bit in front of them they'll often release their shield and get hit by the bounce.

If they just shield ill run up and try to stay out of jab range and grab'em (which has deceptive range sometimes) and down throw, continue the camping until they get high enough to do some side B shenanigans. Of course i'm throwing out nairs and jab combos to keep them at bay, but i'm amazed at how many people can't get past a simple barrage of fruit + the hydrant. throw in a trampoline for good measure and pac becomes one of the hardest characters to approach safely. you pretty much gotta out projectile him, which a few characters do pretty well.

for approaching i really like throwing out a berry, waiting to see if they shield or try to jump over it - if they shield they get grabbed, if they jump towards me i'll smack'em back with a nair or retreat and throw another fruit. if they roll back they frequently get nailed by the bounce on the fruit and you can dash attack or whatever.

 

[Little Pac]

You guys feeling offensive or defensive Pac more? Obviously it's going to be best to use both, but which do you prefer?

I'm more of a defensive(/reactionary) Pac myself.

I love being offensive. I spam fair to anything all day every day.

 

[Little Pac]

I am more of a rushdown type of fighter, but I have come to this conclusion as well with Pac at least. I've found myself playing very campy (except against projectile spammers like link or DHD).

I'll throw down a hydrant, immediately jump and start charging a fruit - they pretty much have to jump at you to approach you, so i will toss out an orange if they jump, and an apple if they don't. the apple bounces a few times, which people don't really expect all the time, so if you throw it a little bit in front of them they'll often release their shield and get hit by the bounce.

If they just shield ill run up and try to stay out of jab range and grab'em (which has deceptive range sometimes) and down throw, continue the camping until they get high enough to do some side B shenanigans. Of course i'm throwing out nairs and jab combos to keep them at bay, but i'm amazed at how many people can't get past a simple barrage of fruit + the hydrant. throw in a trampoline for good measure and pac becomes one of the hardest characters to approach safely. you pretty much gotta out projectile him, which a few characters do pretty well.

for approaching i really like throwing out a berry, waiting to see if they shield or try to jump over it - if they shield they get grabbed, if they jump towards me i'll smack'em back with a nair or retreat and throw another fruit. if they roll back they frequently get nailed by the bounce on the fruit and you can dash attack or whatever.

Woah, we're the same person.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So who is turning out to be Pac-Man's best and worst match-up?

 

[Paper Maribro]

So who is turning out to be Pac-Man's best and worst match-up?

I feel powerful against quite a lot of characters actually. Having played a lot of C.Fals, Little Macs, Bowsers and Ganondorfs, I have not had too many losses as Pac. For me, I find the Ganon matchup almost unwinnable for him and Little Mac faces some serious challenges when you know what you are doing with bonus fruit. Worst matchups I have found is anyone with a spammable projectile. Had a lot of issues with some Dark Pits, Zeldas, a very good Yoshi (I think this will be a poor matchup for Pac, his priority in this game is massive and he is very, very fast), Link and Toon Link. Although some of these will be remedied by not having perfectly flat stages, I do very much worry about the Yoshi MU. I haven not played many Rosalinas, but contrary to what many people are saying, I am yet to have too much trouble facing her. I am not sure if this is just the people I am playing against or what it is but I am yet to be brutally slaughtered by a Rosaluma. Everyone else seems fairly even, if not favoured to Pac and his stage-control game.

As a small caveat, it is very, very early on in the games life and as such, all these opinions should not be taken 100% seriously. I am not sure if I have faced players good enough to represent their main either, so these factors should also be considered.

 

[dragontamer]

Pac Man's worst matchup so far seems to be either Rosalina or Lucario. Yoshi has an advantage, but Rosalina and Lucario's advantage vs Pac-Man seems stronger.

Both Rosalina and Lucario are impossible to gimp. At "ideal Fair offstage combo" of 80% or so, Lucario's aura intensifies significantly, and his up-B seems to allow him to recover off of damn near everything. (fair->fair-> toadstool jump, an off-stage combo that seems to kill the majority of the cast, fails to kill Lucario).

Beyond 80%, Lucario's hitboxes get better and better. Pac-Man has an easy time getting Lucario up in damage, but at high damages, the huge hitboxes and power behind Lucario clearly gives Pac-Man trouble. Lucario can bait Pac-Man's smash attacks with his down-B, and Lucario's reversal at 100%ish is a solid killing move.

KOing Lucario at 100% requires the use of risky moves (Smash attacks in paticular). Lucario is solid however at this percentage, and his own smash attacks, tilts, and aerials will punish your missed smashes and grab attempts. However, failing to KO Lucario "early" means fighting him at 150%+ (where safer attacks like Bair, or Melon will KO). By this point, Lucario's aura turns him into an absolute monster, his UP-B allows him to land anywhere on the stage (he can be offscreen-left, and his up-B goes so far that he can land on the right-side of a stage)

B-Spam cancels out most fruit one-on-one, and Lucario can throw out more mini-aura spheres than you can throw out fruit.

I think "managing" Lucario's % and relying on Bell near 100% is the best way to KO Lucario. Pac-man often times plays defense till the opponent is 150% and then delivers a killing blow, but this is not a good strategy vs Lucario.

You will not have any issues getting Lucario to 80%. His hitboxes are clearly weaker than Pac-Man's at low percentages, and dumb rushdown seems to work. Landing that final blow however becomes a pain.

Also, **** Lucario's "step back" when he smash attacks. So many times do I die because I miss my fair as Lucario stakes a slight step back before his smash attack. :-(

--------------------------

Rosalina also fails to be gimped by most of Pac-Man's offstage fair-fair combos. This cuts off an easy KO option at 80%.

Rosalina is super-tall, so short-hop Fair -> DI back is an excellent "poke" against Rosalina. (DI back just in case she sidesteps / shields, which means she can't grab punish or tilt-punish you if you keep the distance appropriate). Most characters are too short for this poke option, but keep this matchup specific poke in mind. (On the ground, Bowser, Gannondorf, Rob, and Rosalina can be poked with Fair somewhat safely). As always, mix up your approaches.

But yeah, Luma blocks out most fruit spam with no effort on Rosalina's part. With "effort", Rosalina can use down-B to protect Luma and then catch fruit you've thrown at her. Her Down-B negates Hydrant as a projectile and also negates it when it is still on the ground.

Grabs vs Rosalina need to be executed immediately. Do not pummel with Luma nearby. Pummelling leads to a free smash attack from Luma. Its important to remember that Luma cannot roll or sidestep. Every thrown projectile or attack will typically hit Luma. It seems like striking Luma causes "hitstop": both Luma and Pac-man are momentarily stunned by the attack, but Rosalina can punish you during "hitstop".

Spoiler

Hitstop is different from hitstun or recovery frames. Normally, hitstop doesn't affect matchups because it is stun applied "to both players". But when you hit Luma, Pacman and Luma get stopped by a few frames of Hitstop... but Rosalina is still fully active during this time and can prepare a punish.

Its similar to how it is easier to punish opponents who wail on the Hydrant. If Marth gets a "tipper" vs the Hydrant, it feels as if he gets "hitstopped" a little bit longer than if Marth just strikes the Hydrant with a non-tipper.

The key seems to be separating Rosalina and Luma using the Hydrant, and playing a solid rushdown game when you know it is safe to approach. Running in on Rosalina's netural B, and short-hopping over Luma when Rosalina throws it is a way to get "in". Rosalina doesn't have any very quick attacks, so she is easy to combo. But her aerials in general have great range and priority, making it very difficult for Pacman to play a rushdown game against her.

So zoning with fruit doesn't work. Using fruit to cover a rushdown also doesn't work (it hits Luma and then Rosalina punishes your approach with her superior range). Hydrant zoning doesn't seem to work. Approaching with aid of the Hydrant is... okay... but gets predictable over time. Gimping at low percentages doesn't work because wtf. Rosalina's up-B is ridiculous.

So like the Lucario matchup, it seems to me like Rosalina tends to rack up a lot of damage before she dies.

I feel powerful against quite a lot of characters actually. Having played a lot of C.Fals, Little Macs, Bowsers and Ganondorfs, I have not had too many losses as Pac.

IMO:

Pacman is 60:40 against Little Mac. Start the match, place an Up-B trampoline in front of you, and start spamming Little-Mac with fruit. Watch him cry. If Little-Mac catches you out of trampoline positing, the matchup becomes a bit harder, so I'm not going to give Pacman any more than a 60:40 advantage vs Little Mac.

Don't underestimate Little Mac's aerials. They're bad overall, but they have decent hitboxes, and give just enough stun to often lead into a ground combo or even ground smash attack. Fight Little Mac _high_ in the air, and force him there with the Trampoline.

Outside of grounded side-B approaches over the Trampoline, Little Mac can be forced to approach Pac Man in the air. Up-B completely neuters Little-Mac's gameplan.

Pacman is like 60:40 against Captain Falcon. Pacman's forward-Tilt beats out literally everything except C.Falcon's side-B (which can be side-stepped and punished). Its a slightly tricky matchup, because a Fair-Fair combo at the wrong percentage (ie: 30% or so) results in Pacman getting knee'd in the face. But overall, it seems that fruit + forward tilt beat out C.Falcon's ground game entirely... and forces him to use side-B on his ground approaches. (To be fair, that sideB KOs you rather early, but it is a hugely punishable attack)

Bowser and Gannondorf hit freaking hard, but Pac-Man just outzones Bowser. Pac-Man probably has 70:30 against Bowser, cause Bowser just doesn't seem to have a response to fruit spam. His approach options are terrible and predictable. Pacman gets the matchup-specific shorthop fair approach option. I rarely feel like I've been outplayed by Bowser... instead it seems like Bowser capitalizes on my mistakes. Pac-man "controls" the match.

Gannondorf is super-gimpable, although trying to gimp him is dangerous due to his side-B. If you get ahead on stock, this matchup feels like 70:30 (too dangerous for Gannondorf to side-B double-suicide)... although I guess its maybe 50:50 or 60:40 (Pacman favor) if Gannondorf has the lead. As long as Gannondorf has Side-B off-stage mindgames, its a tricky matchup.

Like Bowser, Gannondorf has issues against Fruit Spam. But he seems to KO Pac-Man with just 3 attacks or so.

-----------------------

Hard Matchups:

Rosalina / Luma: 70:30
Lucario: 70:30
Yoshi: 65:35
Mario: 60:40
Ness: 55:45

I'm probably going to have to find better players before 100% being sure about the "easy" matchups. But it does seem like Bowser, and Gannondorf have to work very hard against fruit spam... and Little Mac doesn't really have a response to UP-B.

 

[dragontamer]

Dedede's Gordo spam is completely hosed by Pac-Man. Fruit and hydrant not only safely out-prioritize Gordo, but it also reflects the Gordo back at Dedede. If you have an orange saved up, you can _on reaction_ throw it in response to Dedede taking out a spike and punish Dedede with both the spike AND the orange.

Even a cherry or strawberry is enough to reflect the spike thingy.

Dedede seems to have a solid rushdown game however, so I'm not inclined to give Dedede a disadvantage vs Pac Man yet. But at least one "strategy" dedede players like to use is hosed by Pac Man fruit. He's got huge aerial hitboxes and great Nair fast-fall options.

Its just that Dedede's strategy of spamming his side-B all day is hopelessly countered by Pacman.

 

[KiBom]

I got to play a pretty solid Megaman main at a tourney this weekend for about 20 friendlies and we discussed the matchup quite a bit as well. If he tries to spam projectiles the best option is to jump and throw a strawberry. Covers pretty much all of his options and is extremely safe. You never want to be exactly the max range of his lemons as that's pretty much the only spacing where he has more safe options than you do. If he dash attacks you, you can up B out of it, damaging him and getting out of the hitstun. Hydrant isn't as safe as it usually is against Megaman because even an uncharged fsmash can kill it.

At the same tournament got to play against a few other Pac-mains. If they ever throw out a hydrant you can punish it hilariously by throwing a hydrant right on top of it. They both start tumbling like a boulder.

Edit: One more thing to mention. If you're on Yoshi's (or really any stage with an angled ground), you can throw your hydrant and it immediately starts rolling. Seems to be useful for edgeguarding but I only ever pulled it off once.

 

[dragontamer]

I got to play a pretty solid Megaman main at a tourney this weekend for about 20 friendlies and we discussed the matchup quite a bit as well. If he tries to spam projectiles the best option is to jump and throw a strawberry. Covers pretty much all of his options and is extremely safe. You never want to be exactly the max range of his lemons as that's pretty much the only spacing where he has more safe options than you do. If he dash attacks you, you can up B out of it, damaging him and getting out of the hitstun. Hydrant isn't as safe as it usually is against Megaman because even an uncharged fsmash can kill it.

Why be that complicated?

Melon eats up all of his Lemons, and even beats out some of his partially charged Smash Attacks. Throw the Melon -> Punish Megaman.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

A really good OoS option is FH Nair. Seriously, it's really fast and NOBODY I played could punish it if spaced correctly. If you wanna play an aggressive pac, add this to your Fair and Hydrant mixups.

 

[KiBom]

Why be that complicated?

Melon eats up all of his Lemons, and even beats out some of his partially charged Smash Attacks. Throw the Melon -> Punish Megaman.

Because Melon takes time to charge. Strawberry loads up in seconds. Melons also too slow to hit any half decent player consistently.

 

[dragontamer]

Because Melon takes time to charge. Strawberry loads up in seconds. Melons also too slow to hit any half decent player consistently.

The goal of Melon is rarely to ever actually hit the opponent, but instead used to force them to do something.

* If they Shield, you grab them.
* If they roll backwards, Melon hits them. Follow up with a combo.
* If they roll forward, up-smash them.
* If they catch the Melon, running-attack them immediately.
* If they shorthop over it, fair-fair-tilt combo
* If they full-jump over it, up-air them.

The Melon protects you from lemons, full stop. Megaman's lemons are powerless against it. It protects you from one layer of Megaman's higher-priority projectiles (B or side-B), giving you an opportunity to punish Megaman on the cooldown.

It takes a bit longer to charge than Strawberry, but your options are significantly better, especially in the Megaman matchup. Its worth it to spend the extra half of a second to charge up to Melon for this matchup.

Again, you never hit a high-level enemy with the Melon... its slow and easy to avoid. The goal is to force them to do something, and Pac Man can punish basically all attempts to avoid the Melon.

 

[KiBom]

The goal of Melon is rarely to ever actually hit the opponent, but instead used to force them to do something.

* If they Shield, you grab them.
* If they roll backwards, Melon hits them. Follow up with a combo.
* If they roll forward, up-smash them.
* If they catch the Melon, running-attack them immediately.
* If they shorthop over it, fair-fair-tilt combo
* If they full-jump over it, up-air them.

The Melon protects you from lemons, full stop. Megaman's lemons are powerless against it. It protects you from one layer of Megaman's higher-priority projectiles (B or side-B), giving you an opportunity to punish Megaman on the cooldown.

It takes a bit longer to charge than Strawberry, but your options are significantly better, especially in the Megaman matchup. Its worth it to spend the extra half of a second to charge up to Melon for this matchup.

Again, you never hit a high-level enemy with the Melon... its slow and easy to avoid. The goal is to force them to do something, and Pac Man can punish basically all attempts to avoid the Melon.

This actually makes a lot of sense. I'll have to start incorporating melon more for sure.

 

[dragontamer]

This actually makes a lot of sense. I'll have to start incorporating melon more for sure.

It should be noted however, that the "melon approach" is matchup specific.

Reflect attacks are often a great way to deal with Melon. Certain quick projectiles (Mario's fireball, Yoshi's Egg, Lucario Micro Aura Sphere, Ness's PK Fire) cancel it out, while others straight up beat it (Rob's Laser).

And then some characters like Yoshi just beat Pac-Man on the followup. Yoshi can shorthop down-air and beat a lot of Pac-Man's options. It does seem like Pacman's up-tilt sometimes beat Yoshi's down air... but more testing / matchup experience is required on my part. PacMan's up-tilt has a really wonky hitbox and I honestly don't understand it yet. But I'm fairly confident that Yoshi's down-air beats out all of Pac-Man's aerial options.

But against Megaman, melon is very solid. It seems like Pac-Man can potentially punish anything Megaman does in response to the Melon.

 

[KiBom]

It should be noted however, that the "melon approach" is matchup specific.

Reflect attacks are often a great way to deal with Melon. Certain quick projectiles (Mario's fireball, Yoshi's Egg, Lucario Micro Aura Sphere, Ness's PK Fire) cancel it out, while others straight up beat it (Rob's Laser).

And then some characters like Yoshi just beat Pac-Man on the followup. Yoshi can shorthop down-air and beat a lot of Pac-Man's options. It does seem like Pacman's up-tilt sometimes beat Yoshi's down air... but more testing / matchup experience is required on my part. PacMan's up-tilt has a really wonky hitbox and I honestly don't understand it yet. But I'm fairly confident that Yoshi's down-air beats out all of Pac-Man's aerial options.

But against Megaman, melon is very solid. It seems like Pac-Man can potentially punish anything Megaman does in response to the Melon.

May need to test it (not with my 3ds right now) but I'm pretty sure I up-b'd through a Yoshi dair.

 

[DtJ Composer]

I disagree that Pac-Man is a bad match-up for Lucario at all, much less his worst.

It's a campy, long match for sure but Pac-Man has the actual kill power to kill Lucario straight-up, which not a lot of characters can boast.