Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[Jay-kun]

need know how to shield out of dash

 

[Paper Maribro]

You just run and then shield man. Don't stop dashing or you will go through your skid animation, which you don't want.

 

[Rashid]

I'm gonna go ahead and say LM is disadvantageous for us - even at best. You can put a trampoline, but he's never forced to approach. And if he grabs fruit, we're done for. LM is absolutely dominant in neutral, and with our crappy grab, we can't punish him that well.

 

[Nu~]

Fox is easily in Fox's favour. Due to our floatiness, Fox's jab can basically combo into anything Fox wants. If he gets greedy you may get a nair in but I haven't had much luck tbh.

I would say Sheik is even. Yeah she may be forced to approach and everything but it's not like her approach options aren't insane and her combo ability isn't amazing. Fruit is great but you need to be careful how you aim it for it to eat needles. Orange does a great job, but bouncier fruit like cherry, don't do as good a job.

I would also like to suggest moving Diddy somewhere else. I've had nothing but bad experience against good Diddys and many others in the Skype group suggest that Diddy is indeed a bad MU for us. His primary kill move, UAir, kills off the top which is exactly what we are weak to. Sure we may have shenanigans to annoy Diddy players but fundamentally they have a stronger game than us.

The Links should probably be moved elsewhere too. Their range can make approaching really unsafe for Pac (which is exactly what we will be doing because their projectile is much stronger than our own) and they both have a lot of power on their normals to boot. This is not an easy MU at all.

I also suggest moving Samus to even at least. A lot of her moves are insanely quick on start up so if her aim is on point, she can outrange and outspeed Pac quite easily. She kills pretty easily too.

ZSS is not clearly in our advantage. She is so fast she can easily disrupt a lot of our stuff. Most of the guys in the skype group hate this MU for a reason. It's not in our advantage at all.

Ness is even minimum imo. He gets amazing combos from down throw and kills early from Bthrow. His grab is also low commitment with a good projectile for forcing it. I know PP can do work in this MU apparently but if the Ness is playing smart then it may not be something you can do on reaction.

I'm not so sure about characters like Shulk (dat range), Oli (people in the skype group hate him), the Pits (it's always seemed like hard work to me) and the heavies (these guys can really make our lives hell much like we can to them so I would say all heavies are even) but I either haven't got enough experience with them or I am in two minds about how they are for us.

One last thing, you put Falco twice in disadvantage and Duck Hunt Duo in disadvantage and even .

Well with all due respect, it seems that anyone with range scares you.
Shulk and both of the link's range is trivial when they all suffer from a terrible anti-juggle game. They also have a lot less mobility in the air where we can force them with trampoline, and go aggro. Both of the link's projectiles are less versatile, and even though they may clash with ours, they all suck in mid range (too much start up) where ours are best.
also, having the advantage doesn't mean "easy matchup"
Shulk suffers when we get too close even more so than the links(and has no way of dealing with fruit)
So the big picture is, range != win nuetral. We have all the tools to get in and wayy better frame data. Shulk and the links are at a disadvantage.

Also, I think you may rely a little too much in your own experience. You and others way have lost to diddy, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad matchup. Our tools do eons more than just annoy him. Hydrant stops uair juggles. Trampoline removes a grounded banana from play. Fruit eat bananas and make it hell for diddy to approach. The trampoline lessens the threat of a grab. Our frame data matches his. Every tool we have counters a threat he has. Diddy may be a better character overall, but he still loses to us because we have everything to stop him.
Diddy is at a big disadvantage. I may even say 40:60 in our favor.

Samus loses the projectile game and neutral. I can't fathom how she can possibly cause us trouble. Olimar's Pikmin either latch onto the fruit and we are free to rush in, or the fruit grinds the pikmin. The pits lose hard due to worse frame data and nothing in their arsenal threatens us (slow reflector, arrows are underwhelming for gimping because of our awesome recovery (pit) or pressure because the hydrant meatsheilds it (dark pit)

And I still believe that sheik is in our favor, because it's harder for her to combo us if she can't get in smoothly (fruit, trampoline, hydrant)

I'm gonna go ahead and say LM is disadvantageous for us - even at best. You can put a trampoline, but he's never forced to approach. And if he grabs fruit, we're done for. LM is absolutely dominant in neutral, and with our crappy grab, we can't punish him that well.

He loses to all out of shield options we have and when we force him into the air...gg
We can juggle him for ever with uair and apple, and gimp him at 0% with the Orange.

 

[Jay-kun]

You just run and then shield man. Don't stop dashing or you will go through your skid animation, which you don't want.

:o

 

[Paper Maribro]

Well with all due respect, it seems that anyone with range scares you.
Shulk and both of the link's range is trivial when they all suffer from a terrible anti-juggle game. They also have a lot less mobility in the air where we can force them with trampoline, and go aggro. Both of the link's projectiles are less versatile, and even though they may clash with ours, they all suck in mid range (too much start up) where ours are best.
also, having the advantage doesn't mean "easy matchup"
Shulk suffers when we get too close even more so than the links(and has no way of dealing with fruit)
So the big picture is, range != win nuetral. We have all the tools to get in and wayy better frame data. Shulk and the links are at a disadvantage.

Also, I think you may rely a little too much in your own experience. You and others way have lost to diddy, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad matchup. Our tools do eons more than just annoy him. Hydrant stops uair juggles. Trampoline removes a grounded banana from play. Fruit eat bananas and make it hell for diddy to approach. The trampoline lessens the threat of a grab. Our frame data matches his. Every tool we have counters a threat he has. Diddy may be a better character overall, but he still loses to us because we have everything to stop him.
Diddy is at a big disadvantage. I may even say 40:60 in our favor.

Samus loses the projectile game and neutral. I can't fathom how she can possibly cause us trouble. Olimar's Pikmin either latch onto the fruit and we are free to rush in, or the fruit grinds the pikmin. The pits lose hard due to worse frame data and nothing in their arsenal threatens us (slow reflector, arrows are underwhelming for gimping because of our awesome recovery (pit) or pressure because the hydrant meatsheilds it (dark pit)

And I still believe that sheik is in our favor, because it's harder for her to combo us if she can't get in smoothly (fruit, trampoline, hydrant)


He loses to all out of shield options we have and when we force him into the air...gg
We can juggle him for ever with uair and apple, and gimp him at 0% with the Orange.

Pac has very little in the way of range out side of his projectiles which bot the Links cancel out. Low range and a forced approach? That's pretty goddamn high commitment. What kind of commitment is a solidly ranged character making? Basically none at all. They can throw out hitboxes and they're fundamentally safe.

Like I said, I'm not sure about Shulk, I just imagine his range would be problematic because he can just counter our fruit.

Hydrant doesn't stop up air juggles. You know what hitstun is? You know what clashing hit boxes are? Both of those things make relying on hydrants silly to save us against Diddy Kong. He is also miles ahead of us in terms of mobility, range, mixups and power. I cannot fathom how this is good for us. When a character is this fundamentally good, you have to bring a lot more to the table than Pac is offering. You can't rely on fruit and trampoline to stop diddy approaching. One is powershieldable and the other takes time to set up and puts us in special fall. Relying on trampoline to take banana away is cool and all but Diddy can just carry it around with him, not to mention yet again that trampoline isn't risk free to set up, especially against a mobilie character like Diddy.

Go and find a good one and play them. Then you'll know. I don't understand how two projectiles cancelling each other out means we win projectile game and nor do I understand why a character with Samus' range and frame data wins neutral as you say but there you go.

You're kinda relying on the Olimar missing us here. What if he doesn't? What then?

The Pit's everything has like no endlag. Punishing them for anything is hard and their solid range makes it tough to get in. Yes I mentioned range again, I still maintain Pac's lack of range is gonna hurt him much more than many of his other weaknesses.

I can't argue the point with you any further with Sheik. It's no walk in the park like you are seeming to say it is but she really doesn't have much trouble getting in given that all her moves start combos.

 

[Nu~]

Pac has very little in the way of range out side of his projectiles which bot the Links cancel out. Low range and a forced approach? That's pretty goddamn high commitment. What kind of commitment is a solidly ranged character making? Basically none at all. They can throw out hitboxes and they're fundamentally safe.

Like I said, I'm not sure about Shulk, I just imagine his range would be problematic because he can just counter our fruit.

Hydrant doesn't stop up air juggles. You know what hitstun is? You know what clashing hit boxes are? Both of those things make relying on hydrants silly to save us against Diddy Kong. He is also miles ahead of us in terms of mobility, range, mixups and power. I cannot fathom how this is good for us. When a character is this fundamentally good, you have to bring a lot more to the table than Pac is offering. You can't rely on fruit and trampoline to stop diddy approaching. One is powershieldable and the other takes time to set up and puts us in special fall. Relying on trampoline to take banana away is cool and all but Diddy can just carry it around with him, not to mention yet again that trampoline isn't risk free to set up, especially against a mobilie character like Diddy.

Go and find a good one and play them. Then you'll know. I don't understand how two projectiles cancelling each other out means we win projectile game and nor do I understand why a character with Samus' range and frame data wins neutral as you say but there you go.

You're kinda relying on the Olimar missing us here. What if he doesn't? What then?

The Pit's everything has like no endlag. Punishing them for anything is hard and their solid range makes it tough to get in. Yes I mentioned range again, I still maintain Pac's lack of range is gonna hurt him much more than many of his other weaknesses.

I can't argue the point with you any further with Sheik. It's no walk in the park like you are seeming to say it is but she really doesn't have much trouble getting in given that all her moves start combos.

Ok. I can feel the hostility. I didn't mean to cause your frustration, but I hope we can continue without strife. I don't like upsetting people. It gets to me.

Now, what I meant by hydrant stops uair juggles is that if we are in the air high above a diddy, we can wait out the aerial approach, and drop one if he goes for the uair. I understand that we can't do this in the middle of his combo
Our aerial mobility is better than his, and all of our fruits above Apple eat his banana (I wasn't talking about the ones that clash)
I heard you say before that our mobility is a weakness...when really it's a strength. We have really good aerial mobility. Otherwise, I agree. I just feel that our tools can help us survive in the matchup, but he probably isn't disadvantaged against us.
It just seems like you underestimate our character. We may lack range, but more than make up for it with all 8 of our fruit. Every time we discuss a matchup, you talk about our disadvantage and opponent's advantages first. Maybe it's just my optimistic nature, but it just feels like you downplay our strengths. Now we may disagree, but I really don't want to have a bloody argument. You seem pretty upset.
I hope we can still be cool.
But I would like to discuss the sheik matchup more as a community. We need everyone's thoughts.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Ok. I can feel the hostility. I didn't mean to cause your frustration, but I hope we can continue without strife. I don't like upsetting people. It gets to me.
Now we may disagree, but I really don't want to have a bloody argument. You seem pretty upset.

First things first, my apologies. I had no intention of projecting hostility, angst or frustration in my previous post. I share your feelings on upsetting people getting to you and so I am sorry that you felt that was the case. I just want to make sure you understand, I'm not upset and didn't want an argument.

I hope we can still be cool.

We cool man, we cool.

Now, what I meant by hydrant stops uair juggles is that if we are in the air high above a diddy, we can wait out the aerial approach, and drop one if he goes for the uair. I understand that we can't do this in the middle of his combo
Our aerial mobility is better than his, and all of our fruits above Apple eat his banana (I wasn't talking about the ones that clash)
I heard you say before that our mobility is a weakness...when really it's a strength. We have really good aerial mobility. Otherwise, I agree. I just feel that our tools can help us survive in the matchup, but he probably isn't disadvantaged against us.

In my experience, we are still in hitstun when he reaches us for an up air. That is until he reaches rage percents when his down throw starts going super high. As such, it's not always an option and merely a situational thing. With clashign hitboxes I meant hydrant with up air. Fruit and bananas I haven't really tried to use like that as often I can't react quick to Diddy's run speed.

Our ground mobility is still pretty poor and our floatiness does hinder some of our mobility. But yeah, his air speed is fairly solid.

It just seems like you underestimate our character. We may lack range, but more than make up for it with all 8 of our fruit. Every time we discuss a matchup, you talk about our disadvantage and opponent's advantages first. Maybe it's just my optimistic nature, but it just feels like you downplay our strengths.

In my experience, fruit aren't something to rely on due to how slowly some of them go away if you miss and the fact they are catchable. They are an amazing tool but aren't the pillar of amazingness some make them out to be. They have flaws that are exploitable. Our lack of range is especially important in matchups where fruit are cancelled out by the other sides projectiles.Losing our safest mid range option is pretty rough for us, especially against disjoint characters like Link.

I'm a pessimistic guy at the end of the day and you are clearly and optimist. Discussions between the two of us, although volatile, will probably hammer out more than two pessimists or two optimists. Having a variety of mindsets is key to a good discussion.

Once again @ Nu~ , I am sorry for any ill-feeling I may have caused you. I wasn't (and still am not) upset or angry.

 

[Nu~]

First things first, my apologies. I had no intention of projecting hostility, angst or frustration in my previous post. I share your feelings on upsetting people getting to you and so I am sorry that you felt that was the case. I just want to make sure you understand, I'm not upset and didn't want an argument.



We cool man, we cool.



In my experience, we are still in hitstun when he reaches us for an up air. That is until he reaches rage percents when his down throw starts going super high. As such, it's not always an option and merely a situational thing. With clashign hitboxes I meant hydrant with up air. Fruit and bananas I haven't really tried to use like that as often I can't react quick to Diddy's run speed.

Our ground mobility is still pretty poor and our floatiness does hinder some of our mobility. But yeah, his air speed is fairly solid.



In my experience, fruit aren't something to rely on due to how slowly some of them go away if you miss and the fact they are catchable. They are an amazing tool but aren't the pillar of amazingness some make them out to be. They have flaws that are exploitable. Our lack of range is especially important in matchups where fruit are cancelled out by the other sides projectiles.Losing our safest mid range option is pretty rough for us, especially against disjoint characters like Link.

I'm a pessimistic guy at the end of the day and you are clearly and optimist. Discussions between the two of us, although volatile, will probably hammer out more than two pessimists or two optimists. Having a variety of mindsets is key to a good discussion.

Once again @ Nu~ , I am sorry for any ill-feeling I may have caused you. I wasn't (and still am not) upset or angry.

Awesome. And thanks man, I like to maintain peace between everyone I meet.

But yes, I agree, our lack of range does hinder us. But I still believe it's less important to us than characters like Mario and Luigi (who NEED to get in and have even less range than us). Our fruit are certainly not the lord and savior for all matchups, but their versatility does allow us to beat many characters in the cast. Link's projectiles do clash with ours, but if close enough, we can catch them again. Also, after testing, link's projectiles can't stop the galaxian and above (he can only stop the key with a fully charged arrow which no link can do in the mid range) I do think that we should be able to get in their face and beat them, but I do see where you are coming from. It seems mostly even. We win when we get inside, but it's tough.

I would like to discuss the heavies (who I think we destroy since they have major trouble getting in on us), samus (I just saw her frame data...wow. But our PP still stops all her missles and charge shot. Same with the melon and above fruit.), and olimar(he just doesn't have a good answer to fruit, and he needs to be close to fight. He's more of a brawler in this game)

 

[Paper Maribro]

I would like to discuss the heavies (who I think we destroy since they have major trouble getting in on us), samus (I just saw her frame data...wow. But our PP still stops all her missles and charge shot. Same with the melon and above fruit.), and olimar(he just doesn't have a good answer to fruit, and he needs to be close to fight. He's more of a brawler in this game)

Don't say I didn't warn you about Samus. I honestly don't understand why more people don't play her to be honest. She's really annoying to play against. RE: Heavies, not sure how we go against them tbh. I would say most of them are close to even because of how powerful they are and how hard it is for us to kill them. I am still yet to have much game time against an Olimar so I dunno how it is, I just remember it being painful the few times I have seen one.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Samus and Link: Slowly approach and PP into her/him when (s)he rolls.
Olimar: I switch to Larry for this one. Pac Man's Nair can shrug off Piks if used multiple times.
Little Mac: Apple, Apple, Apple. It's knockback gets high at high percents, so you can follow with an orange.
Heavies: Apple saves the day, do not set an hydrant and tramp when they're close.

Bonus Fruit aren't everything, but they give us a whole new style of play: Mid-Range/Camping.

Without, we would be flying at opponent's faces with Hydrant and Fair, not exactly fool-proof.

 

[revengeska]

I have a roommate who has mained Samus. Overall she's just not that good. I think vs Pacman it's closer because you have to actually dodge projectiles and approach, but I usually don't find that exceptionally hard. While I've been focusing on Pacman a little more than others as of late, I also main Ness and Fox, and I think both of them absolutely destroy Samus.

I agree with earlier sentiments on Diddy. Pacman seems to pose a lot of problems for the way he normally plays, whether it be nair to break up aggressive play or hydrant to protect underneath and force a different style of approach(grab is harder if you're on opposite sides of a hydrant). I don't think the matchup is worse than 50:50, but I could see Pacman having a slight advantage. I don't share optimism that it's a large advantage, and I don't know how 60:40 is considered a large advantage anyways. 70:30 is a large advantage, 60:40 is a relatively small(albeit solid) one, but I could see an argument for 60:40.

For projectile users in general I feel rather uncomfortable using Pacman and switch to Ness or Fox to deal with them unless I'm determined to use Pacman. Not that it's an auto-loss, but I can get frustrated when having a hard time approaching against campy players.

On the other hand, I find that I feel a lot more comfortable using Pacman over Ness or Fox for other matchups. Diddy would be a prime example. I remember using Ness against a Bowser Jr. and getting absolutely crushed, I was getting my approaches completely shut down by this FG player and would get 2 stocked dealing a total of about 25% damage to the opponent. It got so bad in one game that I just SD'd twice on purpose because I couldn't do anything. Then I switched to Pacman and I started winning. Pacman had all the answers to the situations I had such a difficult time with as Ness. There are a handful of characters in which I prefer Pacman's matchups.

The other character I feel I should mention is Sonic. Currently I prefer to use Pacman over Ness or Fox against him, but I still hate playing against Sonic. The spinning attacks are insane and hard to punish due to bouncing off of the shield, and the timing is difficult. What Pacman does have is a side-b that can beat those attacks due to super armor, and the hydrant is important in helping prevent attacks from below as well as breaking up typical approaches. It's still an uncomfortable matchup though.

 

[bekindrewind]

Hey everyone. Anyone have some tips to share against Dedede? I feel he's a very annoying character to fight against.

 

[revengeska]

Hey everyone. Anyone have some tips to share against Dedede? I feel he's a very annoying character to fight against.

He has superior disjointed range, so you'll probably want to camp him. Which you should be able to do, just have to avoid the gordos he'll throw your way. Pressure with your fruits and use the hydrant, and take advantage of the opportunity get in real close range where your quicker moves will win out. I think Pacman probably has the edge in the matchup, but you have to have superior spacing or it will be easy to lose.

 

[Nu~]

I find the galaxian to be the mvp in this matchup. It's sends all gordos back to dedede, and if he gets hit by the galaxian, you can follow up with nair and fair combos. But yes, in general you have to keep him out with your projectiles and then go all in when you get a read or when you have an advantage.

 

[meleebrawler]

Could you also block gordos with pellets?

 

[Nu~]

Could you also block gordos with pellets?

The PP? If so, then yes.

 

[Nu~]

Alright, new list:
Thought a bit of the matchups through some more.


Advantage 60:40 and above:


Slight advantage 55:45:


Disadvantage 40:60 and below:


Slight disadvantage 45:55 :


Even:





Unsure:

 

[revengeska]

I think you're being a bit too optimistic. I think a lot of those matchups you put as good for us are a little closer to even. I disagree with you entirely on Shulk; that's a character that at a whim can become the fastest, most powerful, or heaviest character in the game. Not to mention that huge range. He can rack your damage up to 80%ish and kill you with one hit, then become the heaviest character in the game to start getting damage before you get the KO. There's not a lot of good Shulks, but the ones that use those advantages are very difficult to beat. I think it's closer to even, maybe even an advantage for Shulk. You also list Dr. Mario twice, you must really not have a lot of respect for him lol.

 

[Nu~]

I think you're being a bit too optimistic. I think a lot of those matchups you put as good for us are a little closer to even. I disagree with you entirely on Shulk; that's a character that at a whim can become the fastest, most powerful, or heaviest character in the game. Not to mention that huge range. He can rack your damage up to 80%ish and kill you with one hit, then become the heaviest character in the game to start getting damage before you get the KO. There's not a lot of good Shulks, but the ones that use those advantages are very difficult to beat. I think it's closer to even, maybe even an advantage for Shulk. You also list Dr. Mario twice, you must really not have a lot of respect for him lol.

That sounds nice and all in theory, but behind all of those arts is a character with among the most startup and end lag in the game. And none of his arts fix this. Yes, a good shulk can be very good, but they still struggle from our projectiles in mid range and get complete bodied when we get close up. Shulk has a major problem of being juggle prone. Yes, a good shulk spaces well and all of that, but even with good doacing, it is very hard for him to approach you safely.

But I may be a bit optimistic, that's why I want input from everyone ^^

And whoops, didn't mean to put the doc down twice. I actually like him as a character lol.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I will do my one then. See which one people agree with more

Advantage 60:40 or above



Advantage 55:45


Even


Disadvantage 55:45



Disadvantage 60:40 or more



Will answer any and all questions pertaining to this list.

 

[Nu~]

Ehhhh
I strongly disagree with diddy, lucario, everyone in disadvantage, and all the heavies in even

 

[Rashid]

Ehhhh
I strongly disagree with diddy, lucario, everyone in disadvantage, and all the heavies in even

Look, being optimistic is one thing, but this is outright denial. Are you saying Pac-Man is a top tier character?

 

[Nu~]

Look, being optimistic is one thing, but this is outright denial. Are you saying Pac-Man is a top tier character?

Denial? Ok. Please don't force your opinion onto me.
what im saying is that pac is a high tier character. Palutena without customs is definitely closer to even because outside of her reflector is terrible frame data and an inferior nuetral, link is definitely even because we can stop his camping with PP (please try it people, it works wonders) and both me and many sheik mains in the sheik thread believe that matchup is a 55:45 in our favor because our fruit stops her from camping by absorbing the needles and she can't approach with short hops because of our strawberry and apple. She has trouble getting around our tools in general. She can't break the hydrant in one hit without charging a smash attack(that we will punish), the pellet blocks needles, our low tier fruit stop her usual approach, and her bouncing fish is blocked by our fruit while we charge it in our hand.
She can still combo well, but what character can't she combo? She also outspends us by a large margin so we can't just throw out hydrants and trampolines in nuetral unless we hit sheik with them. The point is that we have the tools to stop her means of gaining advantage.

We have the tools to mess up diddy's flow, so it's not a walk in the park for him. The trampoline hampers his grab game because we can trampoline out of sheild whenever diddy goes in for a grab, cherries clash with bananas, and we aren't toast whenever we are above him like other characters because of our anti juggle tool, the hydrant. I feel that this matchup is slightly in our favor because of the things we can do to avoid his shenanigans.

As for lucario, he loses the nuetral game until over 100% which we can kill him with the bell (fromundaman found many bell setups that have won games for me at around 100 percent and above) I feel that it's closer to even because it's a gamble of whether we can kill him fast enough or not.
We still lose hard to other top tiers, so no, I don't think we are top tier. However, I strongly believe that we are a contender for high tier.

You know, we should probably just talk about each matchup together as a pac-community. Creating matchup lists based on our own individual experiences and opinions isn't really going to help us in the long run. It just starts arguments like this...

 

[dragontamer]

I will do my one then. See which one people agree with more

Advantage 60:40 or above



Advantage 55:45


Even


Disadvantage 55:45



Disadvantage 60:40 or more



Will answer any and all questions pertaining to this list.

I feel Mario is 55:45, Mario's favor. (Disadvantage). His frame data is straight up absurd. But more importantly, his short height stops a number of PacMan's aerial approaches. Mario is too short for "rising Fairs". PacMan's aerial approaches against Mario's short height often leave PacMan inside of Mario's (admittingly small) grab range. If that wasn't enough, Mario's USmash, UTilt, and Up-B all have invincibility and serve as very good anti-air options.

While Mario doesn't win the "neutral air game", I feel like he wins the "off the ground air game". PacMan is often going to be aiming very late and very low, because of Mario's short height. This means he can preempt our aerial strikes with Nair, Dair, and reversed-Bairs. If it weren't for Hydrant, Mario would beat us regularly if we attempt any aerial approach.

As such, an aggressive PacMan is practically forced to approach on the ground, and the "obvious" ground approaches of "run behind Melon/Galaxian/Hydrant" loses out to Mario's safe cape. The faster fruit (strawberry, orange) clash out with Mario's fireballs. So Mario can enter footsie distance quite safely.

At footsie distance, PacMan finally receives a strong range advantage. Especially on FSmash, FTilt, and DTilt). Even our Jab has noticably longer range than a lot of Mario's options. But a single misplaced zoning option and Mario is _IN_. And good Marios stick to you pretty hard.

Fireballs from Mario can't zone us. But they are sufficient to stop us from zoning him out on his approach. As usual, a 3-frame Nair messes up our "loose" combo game.

Its certainly not hopeless, but I feel that Mario is roughly as much of a disadvantage as the Shiek matchup. 55:45 describes my feeling quite well.

-----------------

I know everyone thinks Zelda is a bad character, but I don't think she has a terrible matchup vs PacMan. I'm actually inclined to demote her to Even. Her sparkle kicks make her play a very mean air game, and her ground game can be relatively smash-heavy but still safe against a lot of PacMan's stuff. She has a lot less cooldown on her smashes than she should have. Her reflector is... mediocre vs the typical opponent... but it is actually quite workable against PacMan's slower projectiles.

Full invincibility somewhere close to startup on her neutral B also serves as an interesting high-risk anti-combo option. PacMan's looser combos (ie: Fair->Fair at low percentages) can get stubbed by B mashing from Zelda. Heck, while Zelda is tall enough for "rising SH Fairs", a good Zelda-player can react to the approach and stub it out with the invincibility frames in her neutral B.

5-frame DSmash (lol fastest ground option tied with DTilt), 6-frame Sparkle-kick Bair, and 9-frame Sparkle-kick Fair. She's not exactly a speed-demon, but her dtilt / dsmash is fast enough to "footsie" us. Her jab is severely disjointed and great shield pressure, although her 11-frame jabs make Gannondorf look like a speed demon.

Still, while Zelda's startup speeds are downright awful, her cooldowns are very fast. Furthermore, one or two retreating short-hop sparkle-kick to the face is all a Zelda player needs to do to remind you that she's actually got some quick and powerful options in her neutral.

Her Up-B serves as a good KO move if we decide to camp, and you never really know if Zelda is teleporting away from you... or towards you until she reappears.

Zelda forces PacMan to approach. If she's a "bad character", she doesn't really show it too much against PacMan IMO. I can see why she's considered low tier honestly, but PacMan doesn't really have the tools that capitalize upon Zelda's weakness (her slow footsies options).

-----------------

I'll have to get more matchup exp with Ness, but I don't really see him as a major threat (not on the same level as Yoshi / Lucario anyway). I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on the heavy disadvantage there. In my experience, he's kinda gimpable if you bait the obvious double-jump FAir and counter-attack on its cooldown while he tries to recover. His dash attack is annoying and he hits pretty hard... but I just don't see him having as big of an advantage as you put.

 

[Nu~]

Could we please settle this sheik and diddy argument once and for all?
We used to all believe that the Shiek matchup favored us, but I don't see what happened, and our diddy matchup opinions are all over the place.

Also, I'm actually starting to feel that lucario isn't that bad. Seriously, try fromundaman's bell traps. I kill opponents so much earlier now (just make sure to mix it up)

 

[dragontamer]

Could we please settle this sheik and diddy argument once and for all?
We used to all believe that the Shiek matchup favored us, but I don't see what happened, and our diddy matchup opinions are all over the place.

The Shiek matchup is slightly against us. Diddy... I dunno. I need to play more Diddy honestly, so I'm punting on my opinion.

Also, I'm actually starting to feel that lucario isn't that bad. Seriously, try fromundaman's bell traps. I kill opponents so much earlier now (just make sure to mix it up)

The Lucario I know plays me too often. He catches all of my fruit and is well aware of the traps. I have to beat him on solid grounds, which means not getting hit about 3 times whenever he's above 100%.

It takes 3 strikes to get KOed from a high-power Lucario. Two strikes is often enough to break a shield at high percentages. And before you say "Smash Attacks", our attacks are so slow that my friend often does a reaction down-b against them. And... Lucario's counter KOs at like 70%.

Heck, Lucario's everything KOs at 70% to 80% in practice. We can't gimp Lucario early and our Smash attacks are too slow outside of a terrible roll from my opponent. 4-frame reversal is one of the fastest and strongest reversals in the game, and can be used against Hydrant Gushes or other timed events.

Partially charged aura spheres launch hydrant in one strike at high percent. (Yes, they do 13%+ damage. Those micro-spheres are very painful). Stronger aura spheres serve as the perfect edge-guarding tool against us. Lucario can follow us off-stage as deep as we want, because his Up-B has about as good recovery as our side-B and up-b put together.

I really don't see how the Lucario matchup could be anything better than 60:40 Lucario's favor. We have an edge in the Neutral game vs Lucario, but not enough to negate Lucario's "three strikes, you're out" damage / KO advantage.

Honestly though, I don't know how you can charge Bell when any Lucario worth his salt would be spamming those aura-spheres at us. Unlike Shiek's matchup, we can't just hide behind hydrant either (because those aura sphere spams launch it too quick)

 

[Nu~]

The Shiek matchup is slightly against us. Diddy... I dunno. I need to play more Diddy honestly, so I'm punting on my opinion.



The Lucario I know plays me too often. He catches all of my fruit and is well aware of the traps. I have to beat him on solid grounds, which means not getting hit about 3 times whenever he's above 100%.

It takes 3 strikes to get KOed from a high-power Lucario. Two strikes is often enough to break a shield at high percentages. And before you say "Smash Attacks", our attacks are so slow that my friend often does a reaction down-b against them. And... Lucario's counter KOs at like 70%.

Heck, Lucario's everything KOs at 70% to 80% in practice. We can't gimp Lucario early and our Smash attacks are too slow outside of a terrible roll from my opponent. 4-frame reversal is one of the fastest and strongest reversals in the game, and can be used against Hydrant Gushes or other timed events.

Partially charged aura spheres launch hydrant in one strike at high percent. (Yes, they do 13%+ damage. Those micro-spheres are very painful). Stronger aura spheres serve as the perfect edge-guarding tool against us. Lucario can follow us off-stage as deep as we want, because his Up-B has about as good recovery as our side-B and up-b put together.

I really don't see how the Lucario matchup could be anything better than 60:40 Lucario's favor. We have an edge in the Neutral game vs Lucario, but not enough to negate Lucario's "three strikes, you're out" damage / KO advantage.

Does he know about the item toss bell upwards-> hydrant water-> fsmash->bell connect -> fsmash trap?

...but yeah, lucario does seem pretty difficult right now (unless we come up with more traps that can convert into faster kills in the future)
I can believe that sheik is slightly in her favor (it's so close that It feels like even)
But as for diddy, his usual shenanigans don't work well against us. The way we bounce after getting hit by a banana makes it hard for diddy to grab us, the trampoline makes diddy's grab game a lot harder, the hydrant blocks banana throws and peanuts (every fruit breaks peanuts and every fruit below melon clashes with banana)
And we don't have to fear being juggled in this matchup as much as other characters do (as long as you aren't trapped in hitstun)
Not to mention how stupid easy it is for us to gimp him. I really feel that it's a 60:40 for us. Not to mention that no diddy has given me trouble on smash ladder.

 

[dragontamer]

Does he know about the item toss bell upwards-> hydrant water-> fsmash->bell connect -> fsmash trap?

Probably not.

But the Lucario player is smart enough to not give me a free hydrant. One partially-charged aura sphere or Two micro-ones is all he needs to do to launch the hydrant before the setup is complete.

The Lucario player knows Hydrant is dangerous, and can often launch it with aura-spheres before I've had ample time to set things up. At least, at the percentages where Bell -> Bouncing Hydrant would actually finish him off (130%+, well into Lucario's Aura)

 

[Nu~]

Probably not.

But the Lucario player is smart enough to not give me a free hydrant. One partially-charged aura sphere or Two micro-ones is all he needs to do to launch the hydrant before the setup is complete.

The Lucario player knows Hydrant is dangerous, and can often launch it with aura-spheres before I've had ample time to set things up. At least, at the percentages where Bell -> Bouncing Hydrant would actually finish him off (130%+, well into Lucario's Aura)

Have you tried Side B power pellet to absorb the spheres? It can stop the lucario main from pressuring you constantly with them.

 

[dragontamer]

Yup. He uses the opportunity to close distance. Also, if I'm using Side-B, I'm not charging fruit or anything. So it is a strictly "reset to neutral" strategy that doesn't really capture any advantage. It just prevents the aura spheres from being a major issue.

Also, larger aura spheres require different timing to side-B. There's an invisible hitbox in those fully charged ones. Aura Sphere is much larger than it looks like.

My main improvement in the Lucario matchup is realizing that Lucario is tall enough for the "rising SH Fair retreat" neutral strategy. But you gotta be pretty precise with the strikes (side-B KOs mad early), and you also need to watch Lucario's %. At high%, Lucario's whiffed side-B has huge range... "the laser" can hit landing from the "rising SH Fair retreat".

 

[Nu~]

Damn man...seems like a matchup we all need to place more emphasis on. Customs may help in this one...(dire hydrant, power pac jump for faster KOs, meteor trampoline for more variety in your traps)

I know that lucario gets snaring aura sphere, but that actually makes him weaker in this matchup

 

[Paper Maribro]

*Snip*

RE: Mario, I don't have much XP against Mario but your points are valid and make sense to me.
RE: Zelda, I actually have said this before in the skype group and people disagreed with me. I agree that she isn't a walk in the park and her MU against Pac is actually quite good.
RE: Ness, I have played one of Australia's best players and she secondaries Ness. Gonna say it feels utterly brutal at times just how much shield pressure Ness can exert with PK fire. I'd say it's 60:40. It's not horrible, but it's hard work for us especially with all the kill options we have and all the ones we lack. Of course, like any MU with Ness, gimping is always a solid strat but getting him off stage in the first place does take some work.

Ehhhh
I strongly disagree with diddy, lucario, everyone in disadvantage, and all the heavies in even

Umm, okay. I think we've been through everyone in disadvantage to death and you still haven't given me any solid counterarguments to the likes of ZSS, Fox and Sonic. And to be honest some of the ones in even could probably go to disadvantage and some of the ones in advantage could probably move to even. This is a best case scenario imo.

Heavies are in even for the same reason Lucario is a 60:40. Three reads and any of them can kill you. The only thing is, 'Zard, Ganon and Bowser don't have to wait till they're nearly dead for them to be able to do that. They also live. I still remember taking a Charizard to 240%. On the plus side though, their large frames and high endlag moves means that it is more possible for us to get something going more easily than Lucario but these are not 60:40 matchups for us or better.

I'm still going with Diddy is 60:40 and Sheik is 55:45 in their advantage. You're gonna have to do a real good job convincing me otherwise because honestly you are the only person I have seen argue that Diddy is in our favour.

 

[dragontamer]

Heavies are in even for the same reason Lucario is a 60:40. Three reads and any of them can kill you. The only thing is, 'Zard, Ganon and Bowser don't have to wait till they're nearly dead for them to be able to do that. They also live. I still remember taking a Charizard to 240%. On the plus side though, their large frames and high endlag moves means that it is more possible for us to get something going more easily than Lucario but these are not 60:40 matchups for us or better.

I don't know of any good Charizards, so I can't speak about that matchup. But I'm inclined to think we're even vs Bowser, but 55:45 against Gannondorf.

Gannondorf only has three approaches: Wizard Kick, Forward B, and walking FTilt. Now granted, these three options break rolling/sidesteps, shielding, and attacking respectively so it seems like a bad matchup. Furthermore, due to Gannondorf's tech-chase mechanics, we really can only afford approximately two mistakes against Gannondorf. (Gannondorf doesn't have true combos, but those tech-chases are very mean). It doesn't seem like PacMan's techs are fast enough either to escape a lot of Gannondorf's stuff.

So I can see why you'd consider these as major advantages to Gannondorf. But in my greater experience of fighting games, slow tech-chase characters like Gannondorf are low-learning curve high-reward in early-metagames. In particular, Gannondorf can't do diddly-squat about a retreating short-hop. (Not "rising SH Retreating Fairs". You just perform empty short-hops and on occasion empty short-hop backwards a bit). Literally nothing.

Wizard Kick and Choke Hold deaccelerate significantly, they have a very low effective range. PacMan however can SH Retreat Strawberry Gannondorf practically all day with complete impunity. Gannondorf has major blind spots on all sides that feel very safe. We can also SH Retreating Fair... although watch the Wizard Kick / Choke Hold as we land. If you can bait the approach with a double-jump then you can punish with fast-fall Jab/jab/jab (damage) or fast-fall Nair (knockback).

Lather, rinse, repeat. Stay out of his range, pelt cherry / strawberries / oranges / apples at him to force him to approach (mix it up so that he doesn't time a catch) and I really don't know what Gannondorf is supposed to do.

As long as PacMan is in the air, and you're far enough away that you can react to Wizard Kick / Choke Hold, you can double-jump out of all of Gannondorf's serious approach options. I mean, what is he gonna do? SH Fair / Nair us? Lulz. Gannondorf is extremely weak to well-timed jumps or double-jumps, and as far as I know he can't force us to use the double-jump early.

The neutral game is so tilted against Gannondorf that even with the "two strikes we lose" fightstyle of Gannondorf... I'm inclined to think we have a slight advantage against him. Any character with limited approach options, no projectiles and spacing blindspots is destined to have a terrible matchup.

I mean, Gannondorf is very similar to the Capt. Falcon matchup, except Gannondorf loses running grabs, aerial options (like SH Nairs), has slower everything but kills us in two hits. (One hit for damage, a second hit to setup a tech-chase situation into a KO). Honestly, I think Capt. Falcon has a better matchup against us than Gannondorf.

So for heavies:

Pacman 60: 40 Ike
Pacman 55: 45 Gannondorf. Maybe 60:40 when we get used to Gannondorf's stuff.
Pacman 50: 50 Bowser... maybe 45:55 Bowser's favor, depending on how the invincibility / guard point mechanics work in this game. (Dat up-smash and Bowser's disjoints scare me. He has some high-level potential IMO). In my experience so far though, 50:50.
???? Charizard. I don't know.
Pacman 40: 60 Lucario

Lucario's neutral game is mediocre (as opposed to absolutely awful in the case of Gannondorf). Its much easier for Lucario to land the three strikes to KO us compared to Gannondorf's two strikes. IMO anyway.

 

[Firedemon0]

Man, I need to stop being so busy. My opinions on Shiek and Diddy are very similar to Pacman9's.

For convincing on the match up being in our favor for Shiek. She really does have an incredibly hard time getting in when zoning and spacing properly. While on lower percents she has a few true combos, her kill moves have a hard time hitting Pac-man. Bouncing fish is countered by charging fruit! Of all things! Needles are an annoyance if you do not sit behind or on top of hydrant. I find apple and orange great for catching Shiek off guard during their flowchart bread and butter combos. While not as predictable's as sonics, with proper DI you can get out and get a quick nair or fruit toss throwing off the flow. The biggest risk to Pac-man is timing attacks to catch Shiek in her vanish. Both hit boxes hit hard, but with proper timing on recovery, I have killed some Shieks with off stage Nairs on reappear.

For Diddy, I think its more related to fear of the Up-air. He has one of the craziest in the game. He is not the only one with downthrow up-air combos, Shiek and Rob for example. However, with proper DI you can escape at kill percents, lowering its threat. The trick to this matchup, is to learn how the Diddy player approaches. Pac-man can counter every type of approach, except maybe short hop fairs, just because of Diddy's landing lag. Banana's easily grabbed, and used in Pac-man's favor, Banana > Orange, or Banana > Bell, can very easily setup kill moves or gimping. His side B, when used for recovery is rough when they aim for ledge because of it's speed. Making hydrant a poor choice for Edgeguarding. However, If you have seen it, there is a few vulnerable frames when anyone grabs the ledge. Diddy is no exception to this, and a well timed Nair will kill Diddy around 120-140% depending on stage.

Lucario, I gave advice before about Dragontamer's friend. I still disagree with the assessment that it is a disadvantaged matchup. Even I would agree with. Aura is no joke and its annoying as piss to deal with, but Lucario is actually pretty susceptible to throws if they insist on zoning. I work my way in with Cherry-Orange, try to bait out their responses, and learn how they try to counter approaches. Side-B when miss timed, is susceptible to dash attack and trampoline. If you stay out of grab range of it, OOS Nair is an option. If they shield, hydrant, and see if they prefer to grab, or use an OOS attack. I use Hydrant more of a mixup for timing, then as a zoning tool because Lucario is more able to deal with hydrant effortlessly. Up smash is not a bad kill option rather then f-smash, nor is back throw.

I am willing to expand on any of the character matchup further with any questions, but we do have a strong advantage on Diddy and Shiek, and I have an incredibly hard time wavering from that.

 

[dragontamer]

Bouncing fish is countered by charging fruit! Of all things!

I'm seriously gonna have to try that. It never occurred to me to use that hitbox as a shield against that attack.

As for Shiek / Diddy, I'm honestly happy they're considered the top tier. My threat list for PacMan is Yoshi / Rosalina / Lucario. (Although I can definitely concur with the theory that Pikachu is a bad matchup for us... but this one is based on theorycraft).

Shiek and Diddy are easier for me to deal with than Yoshi / Rosalina / Lucario for sure.

----------------------------

EDIT: Time for me to make my list. I'll steal Paper Maribo's template and focus on the characters I know.

Advantage 60:40 or above



Advantage 55:45


Even


Disadvantage 55:45


Disadvantage 60:40 or more


Incomplete list, due to incomplete knowledge. Marth/Lucina has a surprisingly decent matchup against us IMO. Without a projectile, you'd think we'd outzone them, but the high walking speed, aerial mobility and 10-frame FSmashes are quite threatening. I wouldn't be comfortable giving us anymore than a 55:45 advantage.

The only characters with a truly awful matchup are Luigi, Rob, Capt. Falcon and Ike. These characters seem to have large-blindspots in spacing that PacMan takes advantage of. Gannondorf has this blindspot too, but his quick KOs and huge-mass are enough to make the matchup closer to even.

Donkey Kong's size is deceptive. He moves extremely fast and I don't really consider him a heavy. Strong aerials (invincibility on up-B) and super-armor options on the ground make him a threat in my eyes. His range is huge, got the speed to do all the footsies and KOs rather quickly.

Robin is a very interesting matchup. Despite having very poor mobility, Robin's footsie game is amongst the best in the game. We edge out an even matchup IMO due to our superior mobility, but every time we go in on Robin is a major risk. We control the flow of the match, but Robin basically can react to everything we throw at him.

PacMan vs Robin has to be one of the most interesting matchups we have. Both characters are toolbox characters: Robin's four different thunder charges provide him with many excellent options. His poor mobility is somewhat mitigated by careful BReversal plays and huge zones where he commands a footsie advantage.

 

[Nu~]

RE: Mario, I don't have much XP against Mario but your points are valid and make sense to me.
RE: Zelda, I actually have said this before in the skype group and people disagreed with me. I agree that she isn't a walk in the park and her MU against Pac is actually quite good.
RE: Ness, I have played one of Australia's best players and she secondaries Ness. Gonna say it feels utterly brutal at times just how much shield pressure Ness can exert with PK fire. I'd say it's 60:40. It's not horrible, but it's hard work for us especially with all the kill options we have and all the ones we lack. Of course, like any MU with Ness, gimping is always a solid strat but getting him off stage in the first place does take some work.



Umm, okay. I think we've been through everyone in disadvantage to death and you still haven't given me any solid counterarguments to the likes of ZSS, Fox and Sonic. And to be honest some of the ones in even could probably go to disadvantage and some of the ones in advantage could probably move to even. This is a best case scenario imo.

Heavies are in even for the same reason Lucario is a 60:40. Three reads and any of them can kill you. The only thing is, 'Zard, Ganon and Bowser don't have to wait till they're nearly dead for them to be able to do that. They also live. I still remember taking a Charizard to 240%. On the plus side though, their large frames and high endlag moves means that it is more possible for us to get something going more easily than Lucario but these are not 60:40 matchups for us or better.

I'm still going with Diddy is 60:40 and Sheik is 55:45 in their advantage. You're gonna have to do a real good job convincing me otherwise because honestly you are the only person I have seen argue that Diddy is in our favour.

Oh...now I see how crazy I must have sounded lol. By disadvantage, I meant 55:45 (sorry ^^; )
I do agree with your 60:40 matchup list when it comes to rosa, fox, pika, and ZSS (ness isn't that bad imo and sonic is only 45:55), but that's a discussion for another time.
Also, I'm noticing a pattern in your arguments. You start with, "the opponent's strengths are this because they can do this" without really relating it back to how pacman can counter said advantage. Yeah, the heavies can kill you in three reads, but who can't they kill in three reads besides another heavy? Does everyone go even or lose to the heavies?
The only real reason I heard you say in relevance to pac-man is that we kill at higher percentages. But really, is that enough? All of the heavies are easily gimped except charizard. You know as well as I do that they all lose nuetral to us with their sorry approaches and laggy attacks (bowser with the highest end lag in the the game, but maybe not DK as much) so if you finish the stock with a gimp (or a bell trap) then your opponent should never reach a percentage that high.
And on diddy and sheik, I'm not trying to convince you specifically lol, I'm trying to convince everyone in this thread that we have the advantage.

 

[bekindrewind]

One of my friends plays a very aggressive Mario. How would my fellow Pac-mains deal with such a character?

 

[Nu~]

One of my friends plays a very aggressive Mario. How would my fellow Pac-mains deal with such a character?

Well from fighting BSP's Mario, I would try stay in mid range for most of the match. His cape makes it hard for us to try and camp him, and you don't want to get close enough for him to grab you. In mid range, his cape isn't fast enough to reflect fruit and you can follow up on impact depending on the trajectory that the fruit smacks him. But watch out, Mario is very mobile in the air and on the ground. Don't try to approach him with short hop fairs because he can punish with nairs and uairs.
Nair is also a key tool in this matchup. If Mario tries to cross you up with a dair, you can nail him with a nair out of shield. Heck, all of his moves lack range enough that you can hit him with a nair out of sheild.

Spacing is key(lol) in this matchup

 

[Firedemon0]

One of my friends plays a very aggressive Mario. How would my fellow Pac-mains deal with such a character?

Mario, while very quick, has very predictable options. Dash attack, Grab, SH nair. Sometimes those options are preceded by a fireball. Other times they may try to mixup with a Dair or Forward air. Out of all of these, none really beat OOS Nair. His Jab combo is very similar to Pac-man's. Almost frame for frame and hit boxes. Offstage, PAc-man, is able to very easily gimp Mario because of his predictable recovery options. Since it sounds like you have an issue with pressure from this particular Mario. If he is hyper aggressive try to use trampoline when he closes in or Hydrant to throw off his timing. Outside of Nair, his options off a bounce are weak at best and Mario is only really able to smash to break hydrant quickly, leaving for punish opportunities with fruit or dash attacks. What does he do to try to get in?