Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[fabz97]

Easily in our favor. Due to the low hitstun the blade produces, everything she has is unsafe on shield and will be punished by a nair OOS or even dropping your sheild and attacking. Also, her aerials have a lot of ending lag, so the trampoline immediately puts her in a bad position. Lucian never wants to play rushdown. She will be severely punished every time. She outranges our aerial attacks (barring bair and uair) but is easily kept out of our space with the fruit. Try throwing a melon out, and then running behind it. Whatever she does to react to it, we can punish.
Oh, and gimping her is incredibly easy with the orange.

After loads of matches with my friends god tier lucina, your advice worked so well, thanks again

 

[Nu~]

After loads of matches with my friends god tier lucina, your advice worked so well, thanks again

No problem man! One of the best feelings in the world is to know that you have impacted someone in a positive way.

 

[fabz97]

I'll be honest, i was thinking "naa this wont help me at all" but it made the matchup so much easier

Btw has anyone got any tips on sonic? i main him and pac but my friend plays sonic aswell so i switch to pac, i try OoS nair but sonic is waaay to quick

 

[Paper Maribro]

Oh...now I see how crazy I must have sounded lol. By disadvantage, I meant 55:45 (sorry ^^; )
I do agree with your 60:40 matchup list when it comes to rosa, fox, pika, and ZSS (ness isn't that bad imo and sonic is only 45:55), but that's a discussion for another time.
Also, I'm noticing a pattern in your arguments. You start with, "the opponent's strengths are this because they can do this" without really relating it back to how pacman can counter said advantage. Yeah, the heavies can kill you in three reads, but who can't they kill in three reads besides another heavy? Does everyone go even or lose to the heavies?
The only real reason I heard you say in relevance to pac-man is that we kill at higher percentages. But really, is that enough? All of the heavies are easily gimped except charizard. You know as well as I do that they all lose nuetral to us with their sorry approaches and laggy attacks (bowser with the highest end lag in the the game, but maybe not DK as much) so if you finish the stock with a gimp (or a bell trap) then your opponent should never reach a percentage that high.
And on diddy and sheik, I'm not trying to convince you specifically lol, I'm trying to convince everyone in this thread that we have the advantage.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense.

The reason I'm bring up those points is because Pac can't counter them. If they could be easily countered, then I wouldn't be bringing it up now would I?

I would say all matchups with heavies are between 60:40 and 40:60 except against a few of the absolute top tier characters. When characters have the ability to kill you so easily, you can't be massively dominant. One mistake could lead to a stock. Back to us now, rage is massive, especially when you have a tough time killing opponents easily and your opponent can already kill you super early. As you should have noted, Dedede and DK I have put in our favour. The only three I think we will have a particularly tough time against are 'Zard, Ganon and Bowser. Now to answer Dragontamer's questions on these chars and why I placed them there, 'Zards jab and grab game is incredible. High range and speed and both with solid reward too. 'Zard is really mobile too so be careful of him springing a surprise attack. Don't charge BF willy nilly either because you will take a Flare Blitz to the face. It's not so bad though, fruit is useful as ever and (I think) he is floatier than other heavies so apple will be more of a kill move than against say Bowser. There's nothing too much else to say about the MU, it's fairly standard really, hence why I'd call it even. As for Ganon, I think you may be oversimplifying his combo ability. He does have a few combos and by the time he has got those couple of hits in, you're gonna be well over Ganon kill percent. By no means a walk in the park for him though. His low mobility does mean that he is fairly easy to keep out, but slip up and you are gonna feel it as your stock fades away. Finally, Bowser, his massive frame can make it safer to poke and juggle, but he's got some nasty moves that you really need to be careful of.

RE: Sheik, I don't think relying on BF charging to counter bouncing fish is a great idea. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and most of the time I'm hit by it, I'm usually in hit stun anyway.
RE: Diddy, I'm not gonna be convinced until I see something tangible. Theorycrafting against the best character in the game is only going to get you so far and when making a claim that we beat him, you need to have a little more than just theory to back you up.

EDIT: Time for me to make my list. I'll steal Paper Maribo's template and focus on the characters I know.

Advantage 60:40 or above



Advantage 55:45


Even


Disadvantage 55:45


Disadvantage 60:40 or more


Incomplete list, due to incomplete knowledge. Marth/Lucina has a surprisingly decent matchup against us IMO. Without a projectile, you'd think we'd outzone them, but the high walking speed, aerial mobility and 10-frame FSmashes are quite threatening. I wouldn't be comfortable giving us anymore than a 55:45 advantage.

The only characters with a truly awful matchup are Luigi, Rob, Capt. Falcon and Ike. These characters seem to have large-blindspots in spacing that PacMan takes advantage of. Gannondorf has this blindspot too, but his quick KOs and huge-mass are enough to make the matchup closer to even.

Donkey Kong's size is deceptive. He moves extremely fast and I don't really consider him a heavy. Strong aerials (invincibility on up-B) and super-armor options on the ground make him a threat in my eyes. His range is huge, got the speed to do all the footsies and KOs rather quickly.

Robin is a very interesting matchup. Despite having very poor mobility, Robin's footsie game is amongst the best in the game. We edge out an even matchup IMO due to our superior mobility, but every time we go in on Robin is a major risk. We control the flow of the match, but Robin basically can react to everything we throw at him.

PacMan vs Robin has to be one of the most interesting matchups we have. Both characters are toolbox characters: Robin's four different thunder charges provide him with many excellent options. His poor mobility is somewhat mitigated by careful BReversal plays and huge zones where he commands a footsie advantage.

I agree with your list except for anything previously posited. I actually haven't found that Marth and Lucina are a walk in the park for us on the whole but I have been having success against them lately by just hanging back and fruiting them because of their stupid landing lag on their everything.

Sounds like I need more Robin and DK experience though. Everytime I have faced these characters it's been a walk in the park.

One question though.

What makes Jr. even?

 

[Nu~]

@ F fabz97

Funny you should ask. You only need 3 moves to beat out Sonic's approach:
Melon, tranpoline, and utilt
Seriously. The melon busts through all spin dash attempts and forces sonic to either shield or jump. Sonic actually has very few options to land with outside of spring-> dair-> roll
Which can be punished by utilt. Utilt has invincibility on frame 5 I believe? So you can bowl through sonic's homing attack or dair, making it hard for him to approach you from the air. He is very quick, yes. However, your tranpoline hampers his approach. Don't just throw it out randomly or else sonic will be ready to punish the landing, but rather use it in sonic while he's shielding or touched your shield. It comes out in frame 1 so any sonic tKuching your shield is going to get bopped. once the tramp is down, you can use them at time to charge to what ever fruit you need. This matchup isn't dufficukt as long as you don't let sonic overwhelm you, and it may feel awkward because the hydrant is kinda useless in this matchup to use as a barrier (spin dash cuts through all)
Still, keep your distance. But when you need to approach, sonic's aerials come out slower than ours, but have more range. Be mindful of this and you should be able to get good combos off of him.

 

[bekindrewind]

Mario, while very quick, has very predictable options. Dash attack, Grab, SH nair. Sometimes those options are preceded by a fireball. Other times they may try to mixup with a Dair or Forward air. Out of all of these, none really beat OOS Nair. His Jab combo is very similar to Pac-man's. Almost frame for frame and hit boxes. Offstage, PAc-man, is able to very easily gimp Mario because of his predictable recovery options. Since it sounds like you have an issue with pressure from this particular Mario. If he is hyper aggressive try to use trampoline when he closes in or Hydrant to throw off his timing. Outside of Nair, his options off a bounce are weak at best and Mario is only really able to smash to break hydrant quickly, leaving for punish opportunities with fruit or dash attacks. What does he do to try to get in?

He loves getting in with Fair or Dair, and fireballs and grabbing. He's crazy for the dthrow to utilt combo. With his dair it's annoying because I try and punish it with a oos nair but either there's still a hitbox after i try to do it or the little ending lag he uses by doing s down smash.

He loves edgeguarding me. He tries to hit my pellet, not afraid to meteor me with his fair, wait for me to use my trampoline to take my last jump, or ledgehog and bair me as i'm coming back. Mixing up my recovery is probably the most intuitive way to prevent this, but it's incredibly annoying.

 

[Paper Maribro]

He loves getting in with Fair or Dair, and fireballs and grabbing. He's crazy for the dthrow to utilt combo. With his dair it's annoying because I try and punish it with a oos nair but either there's still a hitbox after i try to do it or the little ending lag he uses by doing s down smash.

He loves edgeguarding me. He tries to hit my pellet, not afraid to meteor me with his fair, wait for me to use my trampoline to take my last jump, or ledgehog and bair me as i'm coming back. Mixing up my recovery is probably the most intuitive way to prevent this, but it's incredibly annoying.

Due to our floatiness and the speed of nair, you can mash a and usually end the combo and reset to neutral.

Don't try and punish Dair, it's basically lagless and down smash comes out absurdly quick.

Have you tried recovering a bit higher? Other than that yeah, just mix it up as best you can and try not to be so deep you rely on your last bounce. Also try fast falling to go through your bounces quicker.

 

[Nu~]

Ah, that makes a lot more sense.

The reason I'm bring up those points is because Pac can't counter them. If they could be easily countered, then I wouldn't be bringing it up now would I?

I would say all matchups with heavies are between 60:40 and 40:60 except against a few of the absolute top tier characters. When characters have the ability to kill you so easily, you can't be massively dominant. One mistake could lead to a stock. Back to us now, rage is massive, especially when you have a tough time killing opponents easily and your opponent can already kill you super early. As you should have noted, Dedede and DK I have put in our favour. The only three I think we will have a particularly tough time against are 'Zard, Ganon and Bowser. Now to answer Dragontamer's questions on these chars and why I placed them there, 'Zards jab and grab game is incredible. High range and speed and both with solid reward too. 'Zard is really mobile too so be careful of him springing a surprise attack. Don't charge BF willy nilly either because you will take a Flare Blitz to the face. It's not so bad though, fruit is useful as ever and (I think) he is floatier than other heavies so apple will be more of a kill move than against say Bowser. There's nothing too much else to say about the MU, it's fairly standard really, hence why I'd call it even. As for Ganon, I think you may be oversimplifying his combo ability. He does have a few combos and by the time he has got those couple of hits in, you're gonna be well over Ganon kill percent. By no means a walk in the park for him though. His low mobility does mean that he is fairly easy to keep out, but slip up and you are gonna feel it as your stock fades away. Finally, Bowser, his massive frame can make it safer to poke and juggle, but he's got some nasty moves that you really need to be careful of.

RE: Sheik, I don't think relying on BF charging to counter bouncing fish is a great idea. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and most of the time I'm hit by it, I'm usually in hit stun anyway.
RE: Diddy, I'm not gonna be convinced until I see something tangible. Theorycrafting against the best character in the game is only going to get you so far and when making a claim that we beat him, you need to have a little more than just theory to back you up.



I agree with your list except for anything previously posited. I actually haven't found that Marth and Lucina are a walk in the park for us on the whole but I have been having success against them lately by just hanging back and fruiting them because of their stupid landing lag on their everything.

Sounds like I need more Robin and DK experience though. Everytime I have faced these characters it's been a walk in the park.

One question though.

What makes Jr. even?

Tell you what, I'll record every match I have with a diddy player. You can even see how koolaid massacred a diddy in the video thread (the dude is incredible when playing offline)

I do agree with you on the heavies. Everything is clear now. But bowser jr in even? I'm definitely with you there. It feels like a heavy advantage for us. I even have a video in the video thread.

 

[fabz97]

@ F fabz97

Funny you should ask. You only need 3 moves to beat out Sonic's approach:
Melon, tranpoline, and utilt
Seriously. The melon busts through all spin dash attempts and forces sonic to either shield or jump. Sonic actually has very few options to land with outside of spring-> dair-> roll
Which can be punished by utilt. Utilt has invincibility on frame 5 I believe? So you can bowl through sonic's homing attack or dair, making it hard for him to approach you from the air. He is very quick, yes. However, your tranpoline hampers his approach. Don't just throw it out randomly or else sonic will be ready to punish the landing, but rather use it in sonic while he's shielding or touched your shield. It comes out in frame 1 so any sonic tKuching your shield is going to get bopped. once the tramp is down, you can use them at time to charge to what ever fruit you need. This matchup isn't dufficukt as long as you don't let sonic overwhelm you, and it may feel awkward because the hydrant is kinda useless in this matchup to use as a barrier (spin dash cuts through all)
Still, keep your distance. But when you need to approach, sonic's aerials come out slower than ours, but have more range. Be mindful of this and you should be able to get good combos off of him.

Ok got it, thanks bro, jesus your pac must be real good to know **** like this ahah

 

[Nu~]

Ok got it, thanks bro, jesus your pac must be real good to know **** like this ahah

Wanna see me in action? See my fight against bowser jr. in the video thread. How I end the match will blow your mind

 

[bekindrewind]

Helpful tip against ZSS: I think strawberries can go through her paralyzer.

 

[dragontamer]

One question though.

What makes Jr. even?

Jr. Bowser seems to lose to PacMan on the ground, while we lose to him in the air.

Yeah, Jr. Bowser's aerial disjoints make Diddy's aerials look bad sometimes. (maybe a bit of an exaggeration) I only have one good match on For Glory where every single one of PacMan's aerials was beaten out by Jr. Bowser's aerials. I'm not confident in approaching Jr. Bowser in the air, at least when the opponent can take advantage of his floatiness, disjoints, and auto-cancel periods.

I'm somewhat confident on beating Jr. Bowser on the ground, despite B spam and down-B spam. And a good shielding game as he lands on top of us seems to beat out his aerial approaches. But like PacMan, Jr. Bowser doesn't have to commit to a aerial landing strike, and Jr. Bowser can time his attacks to land while under Mecha-Koopa coverage.

I think that Jr. Bowser is being slept on at the moment. He's a lot better than people think, and is far more than just a simple projectile spam character. His ground game is weak, but it is definitely made up with a great air game.

I don't really have experience with Jr. Bowser offline. And a lot of For Glory Jr. Bowsers are terrible (just like almost every other For Glory players). But the one guy who stuffed out almost all my aerial options rather consistently made an impression on me. I know I'll have to study Jr. Bowser's disjoints on his aerials, I think there's more than meets the eye here.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

MechaKoopa, Bowser Jr.'s most powerful ground tool after car dash, is countered by Hydrant, which he can't launch easy.

But his aerial disjoint are great, and he has a great GTFO Nair just like us on top of that as well.

 

[Firedemon0]

MechaKoopa, Bowser Jr.'s most powerful ground tool after car dash, is countered by Hydrant, which he can't launch easy.

But his aerial disjoint are great, and he has a great GTFO Nair just like us on top of that as well.

That and Mechakoopa can just be picked up by Pac-man with very little threat unless Jr is chasing it.

 

[dragontamer]

That and Mechakoopa can just be picked up by Pac-man with very little threat unless Jr is chasing it.

The good Jr. Bowser I was facing would fire Mecha-Koopas behind him, and run in front of it.

He's then do things that were normally unsafe, like fast-fall Dairs or dumb dash attacks. His cooldown was covered by the Mecha-Koopa, so they ended up being unpunishable. Running behind Mecha-Koopa is a mistake IMO. Jr. Bowsers want to run in front of the darn thing, and then do major shield pressure attacks (like FSmash) while being covered by MechaKoopa.

FSmash has major cooldown issues? No problem, incoming MechaKoopa prevents me from counter-smashing him. Quite annoying honestly.

I never had an opportunity to pick it up. Yeah, most Jr. Bowsers don't know how to play that guy.

EDIT: We can do similar by Z-dropping fruit in front of a hydrant, then dashing into the opponent and doing unsafe things (SH Dair, Running Up Smash, Dash attack, etc.). The Hydrant Blast will then launch the fruit and cover our cooldown.

EDIT2: Despite that fact, I still think we have an advantage vs Jr. Bowser on the ground. Jr. Bowser really wants to force us to start jumping to beat us in the air, while we want to charge up to Bell to gain advantages against his aerial assaults. So I give the matchup 50:50. Both of us have strong plans to win the game and strong zones where we're dominant. If Jr. Bowser plays a dominant air game... and if PacMan plays a dominant ground game, the matchup plays out to about even.

 

[Nu~]

I have noticed that...I fought a pretty good bowser jr and I really like his versatility. He has many tricks like pac-man.
Yeah, he's probably one of our most fun matchups.

 

[Jay-kun]

Wanna see me in action? See my fight against bowser jr. in the video thread. How I end the match will blow your mind

can u show the link? I am 100% I can rek you after 20 matches

 

[Nu~]

can u show the link? I am 100% I can rek you after 20 matches

That's quite some big talk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=awVgg9Ytab0

 

[Jay-kun]

That's quite some big talk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=awVgg9Ytab0

ha nice one~<3

 

[fabz97]

Wanna see me in action? See my fight against bowser jr. in the video thread. How I end the match will blow your mind

Video thread? where is that sorry


Ok never mind ahahah

 

[fabz97]

That's quite some big talk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=awVgg9Ytab0

God damn that was niceee, never knew you could do that, im stealing that

you should post more vids

 

[Nu~]

Last one just to put out my changed thoughts

Advantage 60:40 :

(No tippers and low shield stun makes her much less threatning than Marth)
(I stand by this. In theory and in practice, diddy feels like a 60:40 at most. We need a group discussion about this though)

Slight advantage 55:45 :


Even:

(This honestly feels like an even matchup. Neither of us can approach safely, and we both struggle to kill)
(Pk Fire is slow and gets blocked by PP. PP absorbs his recovery. Ness beats us in the air and we beat him on the ground. His main advantage is how much quicker he kills us than we kill him unless we can gimp him quickly)

Slight disadvantage 45:55 :


Disadvantage 40:60 :




Any questions?

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys! We started discussion on the Pacman Match-Up on the Lucina Match-Up Thread. It would be awesome if you could help us out!

 

[warionumbah2]

Any questions?

Why do you think MK vs Pac is 60:40 i never played a Pac man so you who probably experienced a good MK would be able to tell me. I also would like to play some of you guys since non of my friends irl play Pac man, hard to find Pac mains on anthers ladder(worse site to find matches by the way) and Nintendo dojo mostly having well known competitive characters.

Like i played a good pac man on FG but who on earth uses FG in MU discussions?

 

[Firedemon0]

I personal have faced a few decent metaknights, if he was brawl metaknight, we would not have a chance. Because of his range changes, Pac-man is able to use OOS options, and some of our fruit is also able to defeat the mighty tornado. Metaknight is able to kill us quickly if an effective combo is made, but we have so many options to get out of them, it is much harder to up-air > Shuttle loop/tornado us to death. We are able to do this with trampoline, or hydrant. While able to recover very well, with glide removed, we still have some options to keep Metaknight off stage and gimp. Down-B is easily telegraphed and is not dangerous to shield. At the same time, Metaknight is also unable to easily spike Pac-man to death because of our recovery options. Not very predictable at all.

He is still decent, but because of our Zoning options and MK's range nerfs, we are able to stay safe against MK. hence 60:40

 

[warionumbah2]

I personal have faced a few decent metaknights, if he was brawl metaknight, we would not have a chance. Because of his range changes, Pac-man is able to use OOS options, and some of our fruit is also able to defeat the mighty tornado. Metaknight is able to kill us quickly if an effective combo is made, but we have so many options to get out of them, it is much harder to up-air > Shuttle loop/tornado us to death. We are able to do this with trampoline, or hydrant. While able to recover very well, with glide removed, we still have some options to keep Metaknight off stage and gimp. Down-B is easily telegraphed and is not dangerous to shield. At the same time, Metaknight is also unable to easily spike Pac-man to death because of our recovery options. Not very predictable at all.

He is still decent, but because of our Zoning options and MK's range nerfs, we are able to stay safe against MK. hence 60:40

A lot of moves such as characters Nairs can beat Tornado so that's not really an accomplishment, not to mention Nado not being an approach tool its more of a shield poke/punishing tool since it does 22% if fully mashed. I agree with you guys being able to break combo's(at later percents mind you since i can effectively string combo's before a hydrant is used) but hydrant can be punished so long as MK isn't directly under him.

MK shouldn't be compared to Brawl MK he plays nothing like him, his range nerfs isn't that bad as his moves come out fast and are disjointed. Down B is only easy to telegraph if the MK player allows this, he has 4 options of recovery: Shuttle loop from below, Side B into ledge snap, DC onto platforms on BF,SV and Town and city or simply on stage using DC and Side B. MK off stage game is good, his Nair is like a shine spike it beats out your Side B and Up B.

MK only goes for stage spikes if you recovery low but he'll mostly intercept recoveries or punish ledge options. The only thing i got from your post is his range being nerfed despite the fact he has good mobility and safe DA that sets up into kill combo's. Also Shuttle Loop OOS is a solid kill move.

Decent?I think MK is an above average character like Greninja and Pac man mainly because they are demanding/complicated and from what i've noticed they grow as the meta developes because we get better as time goes on. Like we recently found out that MK can act as a hard counter to RosaLuma and you guys give valid points of Pac man doing good against Diddy.

I disagree with 60:40 ratio as MK can act as a zone breaker and avoid ground traps/fruits by abusing his 6 jumps.
I'd like to arrange matches since i need MU experience outside of FD.

 

[Firedemon0]

A lot of moves such as characters Nairs can beat Tornado so that's not really an accomplishment, not to mention Nado not being an approach tool its more of a shield poke/punishing tool since it does 22% if fully mashed. I agree with you guys being able to break combo's(at later percents mind you since i can effectively string combo's before a hydrant is used) but hydrant can be punished so long as MK isn't directly under him.

MK shouldn't be compared to Brawl MK he plays nothing like him, his range nerfs isn't that bad as his moves come out fast and are disjointed. Down B is only easy to telegraph if the MK player allows this, he has 4 options of recovery: Shuttle loop from below, Side B into ledge snap, DC onto platforms on BF,SV and Town and city or simply on stage using DC and Side B. MK off stage game is good, his Nair is like a shine spike it beats out your Side B and Up B.

MK only goes for stage spikes if you recovery low but he'll mostly intercept recoveries or punish ledge options. The only thing i got from your post is his range being nerfed despite the fact he has good mobility and safe DA that sets up into kill combo's. Also Shuttle Loop OOS is a solid kill move.

Decent?I think MK is an above average character like Greninja and Pac man mainly because they are demanding/complicated and from what i've noticed they grow as the meta developes because we get better as time goes on. Like we recently found out that MK can act as a hard counter to RosaLuma and you guys give valid points of Pac man doing good against Diddy.

I disagree with 60:40 ratio as MK can act as a zone breaker and avoid ground traps/fruits by abusing his 6 jumps.
I'd like to arrange matches since i need MU experience outside of FD.

I would be more then glad to, but it seems you are across the pond, online play might be a bit rough. I think we have one or two brits in the forum that might be an option though.

 

[warionumbah2]

I would be more then glad to, but it seems you are across the pond, online play might be a bit rough. I think we have one or two brits in the forum that might be an option though.

If they're willing to play that would be awesome, i only have today and tomorrow for some matches since i'm busy this weekend.

 

[Sonsa]

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but the Villager vs Pac-Man matchup seems 8-2 or maybe even 9-1 6-4 (?) in Villager's favor.

In Villager's Favor

• Can pocket Pac-Man's recovery (Trampoline & Side-B Pellet thing [sorry cant remember name])
• Can also pocket Pac's stage control and many kill moves (Fruit & Hydrant) + Holding fruit or throwing back right away restricts Pac from using another
• Villager can't really be overwhelmed by projectiles, Pac can be quick, but he's not MegaMan
• Villager can easily zone out a Pac-Man that begins to rely on A moves to get in
• Villager can use the tree to scare Pac-Man's into using more projectiles. Don't wanna risk going in with A moves and grab is too slow and punishable to try and grab Villager behind tree.
• Both characters grabs are pretty bad but Villager's back throw can kill earlier than any of Pac's grabs can.
• Pac's vertical trampoline recovery can often be punished with Villager's bowling ball (or a pocket) and Pac can be forced into this after Villager pockets Pac's side-b.
• Tree can hit hydrant hard AND extend its own destructive hitbox.

In Pac-Man's Favor

• His crawl could probably dodge most foward airs and back airs Villager shoots out.
• Could try and mix his recovery up with a wall-jump on certain stages.
• Can bait pockets and punish
• Pac's jab combo is better
• Maybe try and approach from above with Nair? (Dair isn't that great) But Villagers Up Tilt, Up Air, and Up Smash are all pretty good and have little end lag.

I dunno, all the Pac-Man's I've fought I just love to toy with and have never really been any trouble since I can pocket their whole moveset, control the stage, and destroy their recovery. I fought a Villager as Pac-Man once and relied on combos and approaching from above. I won, but I don't think the Villager was that experienced. Maybe I just haven't fought a very optimal Pac-Man yet as Villager? Am I missing something? I'd love to fight some high-level Pac's and rethink the matchup, I personally find Pac-Man very exciting and like playing him myself frequently. But I'd be pretty worried when fighting a Villager.

 

[Firedemon0]

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but the Villager vs Pac-Man matchup seems 8-2 or maybe even 9-1 in Villager's favor.

In Villager's Favor

• Can pocket Pac-Man's recovery (Trampoline & Side-B Pellet thing [sorry cant remember name])
• Can also pocket Pac's stage control and many kill moves (Fruit & Hydrant) + Holding fruit or throwing back right away restricts Pac from using another
• Villager can't really be overwhelmed by projectiles, Pac can be quick, but he's not MegaMan
• Villager can easily zone out a Pac-Man that begins to rely on A moves to get in
• Villager can use the tree to scare Pac-Man's into using more projectiles. Don't wanna risk going in with A moves and grab is too slow and punishable to try and grab Villager behind tree.
• Both characters grabs are pretty bad but Villager's back throw can kill earlier than any of Pac's grabs can.
• Pac's vertical trampoline recovery can often be punished with Villager's bowling ball (or a pocket) and Pac can be forced into this after Villager pockets Pac's side-b.
• Tree can hit hydrant hard AND extend its own destructive hitbox.

In Pac-Man's Favor

• His crawl could probably dodge most foward airs and back airs Villager shoots out.
• Could try and mix his recovery up with a wall-jump on certain stages.
• Can bait pockets and punish
• Pac's jab combo is better
• Maybe try and approach from above with Nair? (Dair isn't that great) But Villagers Up Tilt, Up Air, and Up Smash are all pretty good and have little end lag.

I dunno, all the Pac-Man's I've fought I just love to toy with and have never really been any trouble since I can pocket their whole moveset, control the stage, and destroy their recovery. I fought a Villager as Pac-Man once and relied on combos and approaching from above. I won, but I don't think the Villager was that experienced. Maybe I just haven't fought a very optimal Pac-Man yet as Villager? Am I missing something? I'd love to fight some high-level Pac's and rethink the matchup, I personally find Pac-Man very exciting and like playing him myself frequently. But I'd be pretty worried when fighting a Villager.

I strongly disagree with that statement. You have the advantages right, but grabbing our hydrant is a very dangerous idea. High level play for Pac-man is knowing how to effectively trap and use hydrant, and you are going to give us the option to launch two of them? Pocket is strong, but it has its limits. We can also still charge fruit when you put it away. That also means we can still throw it too, we are not as crippled as it may seem when it is pocketed, like Rob.

We can also recover high and have very little to fear from Villager. While his recovery is immense he cannot pocket out of Up-B. He is also prone to stage spikes with hydrant when recovering low. Villager while able to zone, is much more flow chart. It also does not cover diagonal approaches. Tree has such a large setup, we can patiently wait while it wilts. We can also block lloyd with a side b pellet and recover health. Villager is unable to really approach Pac-man. Pac-man's Nair is also stronger then Villagers in my opinion.

I find fights with Villager more intense from a mind game perspective. I would concede that it would be even, but far from overwhelmingly being in Villager's favor like you suggest. When I lose to a good Villager, it is because time is running out and I get impatient, not because of some inherent advantage the character has.

Rosalina is rough because she can cover that diagonal approach that villager cannot, on top of countering all of Pac-man's Specials.

 

[Nu~]

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but the Villager vs Pac-Man matchup seems 8-2 or maybe even 9-1 in Villager's favor.

well to start, 8-2 and 9-1 is a huge exaggeration. That would mean that we literally can't do anything to you which is simply untrue.

In Villager's Favor

• Can also pocket Pac's stage control and many kill moves (Fruit & Hydrant) + Holding fruit or throwing back right away restricts Pac from using another
• Villager can't really be overwhelmed by projectiles, Pac can be quick, but he's not MegaMan

You can pocket a hydrant...but we can still just throw out another. Villager has an extremely hard time breaking the hydrant because of his low damage moves. He can only break it with bowling ball (which sometimes just lands on the hydrant and has no effect) and dair (only with 3 turnips)
Pocket a hydrant, we toss another. Also, as soon as you drop the hydrant with pocket, we can just throw a key at it and hit you with 41%
We still control the hydrant in this matchup. Your pocket does make us less enthusiastic about throwing fruit, but we can still bait you. If you hold our hydrant, you eat a fruit. If you hold a fruit, you eat a hydrant. You can't pocket it all at once, so we still remain safe at a distance. Your lloid rocket just makes it easier for us since the hydrant can meatsheild it. Then we then can kick it with a fair or ftilt. We can't camp you, but that's not what pac-man is about anyway.

• Villager can easily zone out a Pac-Man that begins to rely on A moves to get in
• Villager can use the tree to scare Pac-Man's into using more projectiles. Don't wanna risk going in with A moves and grab is too slow and punishable to try and grab Villager behind tree.
• Both characters grabs are pretty bad but Villager's back throw can kill earlier than any of Pac's grabs can.

A pac man won't rely on A moves to get in. He will come in with fruit flying from either in front or behind him.(the hydrant pushes z dropped fruit from behind us so that we have a hitbox that protects our approach)
A pacman also wouldn't use fruit if you hide behind the tree, because it blocks our fruit (that's what I fear most in this matchup) however, the galaxian, bell, and key cut through the tree. Also, we can throw the apple over the tree.
Objectively, Pac-Man's grab is better because it comes out faster, has less cooldown, and has a much smaller blind spot. But something else to note, is that pac's throws have better follow ups (fthrow into key, down throw ->dash attack -> bell, up throw -> power pac jump kills stupid early [however, power pac jump is a custom. It also leaves no trampoline, significantly lowering your chances of gimping us])

• Pac's vertical trampoline recovery can often be punished with Villager's bowling ball (or a pocket) and Pac can be forced into this after Villager pockets Pac's side-b

• Tree can hit hydrant hard AND extend its own destructive hitbox.

We can jump over you, but only if we are close enough. And do you know how long that tree setup would take? The hydrant would have disappeared already.

You bring up good points, but we already knew them. Thing is we will be able to get in and we will definitely destroy you up close. Villager wins if he can keep pac away, but loses when we get in. Having a slow roll, slower frame data than pacman, and poor "get off me options" is a bad combination that a pacman player can take advantage of. Hence why I call this even

 

[Sonsa]

I strongly disagree with that statement. You have the advantages right, but grabbing our hydrant is a very dangerous idea. High level play for Pac-man is knowing how to effectively trap and use hydrant, and you are going to give us the option to launch two of them? Pocket is strong, but it has its limits. We can also still charge fruit when you put it away. That also means we can still throw it too, we are not as crippled as it may seem when it is pocketed, like Rob.

We can also recover high and have very little to fear from Villager. While his recovery is immense he cannot pocket out of Up-B. He is also prone to stage spikes with hydrant when recovering low. Villager while able to zone, is much more flow chart. It also does not cover diagonal approaches. Tree has such a large setup, we can patiently wait while it wilts. We can also block lloyd with a side b pellet and recover health. Villager is unable to really approach Pac-man. Pac-man's Nair is also stronger then Villagers in my opinion.

I find fights with Villager more intense from a mind game perspective. I would concede that it would be even, but far from overwhelmingly being in Villager's favor like you suggest. When I lose to a good Villager, it is because time is running out and I get impatient, not because of some inherent advantage the character has.

Rosalina is rough because she can cover that diagonal approach that villager cannot, on top of countering all of Pac-man's Specials.

True, Pac can spawn another hydrant right after having one pocketed or use fruit, he isn't instantly thwarted, but then I would wait for Pac to launch it and pocket that. Or would that end in having the hydrant's original properties and having it sit in place? I have to test that. In any case, Pac can easily bait Villager with all his enticing projectiles, of course, Villager needs to be smart.

As for the fruit, yes, it's true, Pac and MegaMan have that strange leg-up over characters like ROB and Diddy when it comes to fruit and metal blade. However Pac must charge again while Villager can use a charged up fruit whenever? Even near instantly? It's situational sure, I probably made this technique sound much overpowered than it really is. But it is true that Villager can take most of Pac's attacks and throw them back faster and more powerful. I'm trying to communicate that...with characters like MegaMan, Villager may pocket but be punished with more projectiles much faster, whereas Pac-Man's projectiles take much more time and I think Villager can keep up with his pace, never being overwhelmed if smart enough.

You could recover high with a side-b that could either be pocketed forcing you into another option or with trampoline that leaves you helpless. You may underestimate Villager's recovery, he can nearly go anywhere. To avoid hydrants, I sway farther from the stage a bit and head back to the ledge when the opportunity strikes. The apple attack worries me more, it can kill earlier I believe.

Hmm... I'm not sure what to do with a diagonal approach, but I don't think Pac can do so, at least in a threatening way. He's rather floaty, and even with fast fall his horizontal aerial distance isn't that impressive. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but a diagonal Nair approach should be easy to shield and punish or maybe up-tilt or up-air against. Though waiting out the tree I (pretty dumbly) hadn't considered haha. Though they'd have to deal with gyroids and slingshots, which could be shielded, but still Villager is the one applying pressure.

Side-Bing the gyroid is a great technique, but could be baited and punished of course. Their nairs, I do think Pac's has more knockback. I do think I may not be thinking broad enough and could use some experience in the match-up, it's entirely obvious I rushed to extremes. I'd love to spar with ya tomorrow if you would also.

 

[Nu~]

It's actually very hard to punish Side B when it absorbs your rocket because it comes out really fast, and ends immediately when the pellet hits the side B, giving us time to stop the incoming punish. Also, our horizontal movement is quite exceptional. I forgot what his aerial speed rank in smash is however. It's our floatiness that makes us even more quick on the air, but it makes our descent a bit risky (although aerial hydrant is an awesome anti-juggle tool)
I would love to spar with you tommorow too.

 

[dragontamer]

Side-Bing the gyroid is a great technique, but could be baited and punished of course

Lol, I just accidentally deleted your post. Sorry about that. I think things are back to normal now.

In any case, side-B getting "out-baited" by Villager's rocket is impossible. The rocket travels too slowly, side-b comes out too fast. As long as you've got good skill with the pellet-block technique, you'll never really worry about that rocket.

 

[Sonsa]

well to start, 8-2 and 9-1 is a huge exaggeration. That would mean that we literally can't do anything to you which is simply untrue.


You can pocket a hydrant...but we can still just throw out another. Villager has an extremely hard time breaking the hydrant because of his low damage moves. He can only break it with bowling ball (which sometimes just lands on the hydrant and has no effect) and dair (only with 3 turnips)
Pocket a hydrant, we toss another. Also, as soon as you drop the hydrant with pocket, we can just throw a key at it and hit you with 41%
We still control the hydrant in this matchup. Your pocket does make us less enthusiastic about throwing fruit, but we can still bait you. If you hold our hydrant, you eat a fruit. If you hold a fruit, you eat a hydrant. You can't pocket it all at once, so we still remain safe at a distance. Your lloid rocket just makes it easier for us since the hydrant can meatsheild it. Then we then can kick it with a fair or ftilt. We can't camp you, but that's not what pac-man is about anyway.


A pac man won't rely on A moves to get in. He will come in with fruit flying from either in front or behind him.(the hydrant pushes z dropped fruit from behind us so that we have a hitbox that protects our approach)
A pacman also wouldn't use fruit if you hide behind the tree, because it blocks our fruit (that's what I fear most in this matchup) however, the galaxian, bell, and key cut through the tree. Also, we can throw the apple over the tree.
Objectively, Pac-Man's grab is better because it comes out faster, has less cooldown, and has a much smaller blind spot. But something else to note, is that pac's throws have better follow ups (fthrow into key, down throw ->dash attack -> bell, up throw -> power pac jump kills stupid early [however, power pac jump is a custom. It also leaves no trampoline, significantly lowering your chances of gimping us])

We can jump over you, but only if we are close enough. And do you know how long that tree setup would take? The hydrant would have disappeared already.

You bring up good points, but we already knew them. Thing is we will be able to get in and we will definitely destroy you up close. Villager wins if he can keep pac away, but loses when we get in. Having a slow roll, slower frame data than pacman, and poor "get off me options" is a bad combination that a pacman player can take advantage of. Hence why I call this even

Yeah, I definitely jumped to conclusions, sorry, haha, I just haven't had much experience, the only Villager vs Pac matches I've had I've easily toyed with my opponent.

I underestimated the hydrants speed, I think. I just thought when Pac-Man readies a hydrant so he can charge fruit, I can get rid of his hydrant. In a way, Pac-Man's hydrant launch to charge fruit is sort of like Villager's gyroid to growing a tree.
Ahh, I suppose Pac's grab is better in those regards. But I don't know, it only comes out fast if you're very close. Villager can keep opponents at a distance rather well. And sorry, I hadn't considered customs. I guess Villager's lift-off loid would take care of diagonal approaches, though I'm still not so sure Pac's vertical approaches are that threatening.

However the more I hear the more I agree this might be even. I still believe Villager has stronger advantages though... Villager can cripple Pac's recovery in many situations, and limits many preferred options. Pac can adapt of course, but that's the disadvantage I think, Villager doesn't have to. I think Villager forces Pac into playing his game and trying out unfamiliar things. Though, I could still be misguided.

 

[Sonsa]

It's actually very hard to punish Side B when it absorbs your rocket because it comes out really fast, and ends immediately when the pellet hits the side B, giving us time to stop the incoming punish. Also, our horizontal movement is quite exceptional. I forgot what his aerial speed rank in smash is however. It's our floatiness that makes us even more quick on the air, but it makes our descent a bit risky (although aerial hydrant is an awesome anti-juggle tool)
I would love to spar with you tommorow too.

Ahh, it is almost instant, that's true. It is? Is Pac's horizontal air movement really so good? I didn't think he could cover that much ground. Alright, I'd love to! I'm at college right now, which is why I have to wait till tomorrow sorry!

Lol, I just accidentally deleted your post. Sorry about that. I think things are back to normal now.
In any case, side-B getting "out-baited" by Villager's rocket is impossible. The rocket travels too slowly, side-b comes out too fast. As long as you've got good skill with the pellet-block technique, you'll never really worry about that rocket.

Oh no, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude or anything pls don't delete me XD Yeah, that's true. I couldn't exactly go in there and pocket the pellet before it hits the gyroid unless in certain situations, like maybe on the ledge. But covering the ground with a short hop gyroid falling fair could be good pressure. In any case the rocket should be worried about a little haha. Um, I'm having trouble remembering but when a gyroid hits the fire hydrant does it get stuck like Bowser Jr's mecha-koopa, or does it do damage?

 

[Nu~]

Yeah, I definitely jumped to conclusions, sorry, haha, I just haven't had much experience, the only Villager vs Pac matches I've had I've easily toyed with my opponent.

I underestimated the hydrants speed, I think. I just thought when Pac-Man readies a hydrant so he can charge fruit, I can get rid of his hydrant. In a way, Pac-Man's hydrant launch to charge fruit is sort of like Villager's gyroid to growing a tree.
Ahh, I suppose Pac's grab is better in those regards. But I don't know, it only comes out fast if you're very close. Villager can keep opponents at a distance rather well. And sorry, I hadn't considered customs. I guess Villager's lift-off loid would take care of diagonal approaches, though I'm still not so sure Pac's vertical approaches are that threatening.

However the more I hear the more I agree this might be even. I still believe Villager has stronger advantages though... Villager can cripple Pac's recovery in many situations, and limits many preferred options. Pac can adapt of course, but that's the disadvantage I think, Villager doesn't have to. I think Villager forces Pac into playing his game and trying out unfamiliar things. Though, I could still be misguided.

Ah. But see, the irony is that that's pac-man's playstyle; to adapt and use his amazing versatility to overcome foes. We can play a variety of different games, while other characters are tailored to one.

 

[Firedemon0]

I would be willing to spar online, I am never one to turn down a challenge from another player unless lag would be a possible issue. I also do not mind showing what Pac-man is capable of.

 

[Sonsa]

Ah. But see, the irony is that that's pac-man's playstyle; to adapt and use his amazing versatility to overcome foes. We can play a variety of different games, while other characters are tailored to one.

Ahhh, interesting, that's true, Pac is pretty flexible. I really love playing him occasionally, I guess I just haven't given him enough credit or research than other characters. While I usually win and have lots of fun, I'd consider myself a pretty inexperienced Pac-Man, I usually have trouble killing. Sorry for underestimating him so much, but I dunno, I still think Villager has a bit of an advantage... I really need experience with the matchup to be sure. I just think Pac would need to rely on jabs, combos, and creative recovery while Villager can just shoot stuff and punish Pac's impatience, projectiles, and I think more endlag on more moves.

 

[Sonsa]

I would be willing to spar online, I am never one to turn down a challenge from another player unless lag would be a possible issue. I also do not mind showing what Pac-man is capable of.

Thanks! But yes, if lag is a huge issue I'm not sure sparring would reveal much of anything haha, hope it isn't a problem.
Edit: Ahh, sorry for double posting, I shoulda just moved this to the above message. Live and learn.