Official Pac-Man's Amazing Full Colour Fan Club! - Pac-Man General Thread

[BSP]

heres a video demonstrating most of what i said in the above posts, even a few other things like nair into jab and fair into ftilt

When you grab people in situations similar to the one at 1:00, immediately throw them forward so that the galaxian will rehit. You can then follow up off of that.

 

[dragontamer]

The more I play, the less I like to use "landing Fair": 52 seconds into there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=52s&v=1cLKjsYMAEc

On shield, this is horribly unsafe on block, and even on hit it isn't safe till 70%+. The amount of hitstun from Fair is laughably low.

 

[xzx]

Just a quick question here. Who are the "known" PAC-MAN mains in Europe? I only know of me and Pepespain.

 

[fromundaman]

Guys... I need feedback. I need you guys to tell me I'm wrong and give me ways around this. Basically, I need help.


This patch has been out for a little while now, and I assume most of you have had time to play a number of matches with this patch. Now that we have probably gotten past the "ZOMG super situational shield break combo!!!", I want to discuss how this patch has affected us...

In truth, I think this patch hurt us quite a bit, like to the point of no longer being viable as a solo main. I am finding myself seriously considering putting Pac as a secondary and picking up Mario as a main, not because I want to, but because I don't think Pacman is a good character as of this patch.

This explanation is very long, and I REALLY want someone to disprove everything, show me that I can pass this by leveling up, and not be forced to shelve the character I love at a point where I was starting to do really well with him:

(TL: DR version This patch didn't help Pacman at all while crippling his best tools in the neutral.)
_______


Well as you guys all know, this patch made a lot of characters' offense much safer. Pacman is not one of them. Everything that was unsafe before (which is everything except his tilts) is still unsafe, just slightly harder to punish.By slightly harder I mean the timing to punish is stricter, but the same moves that used to punish us still punish us (For example, ZSS can still UpB us between DA hits, only now it only works when we DA her from behind and has a slightly stricter timing).

Now this was also unsafe before, so no big change, except that before I could force people to respect me as between trampoline and Nair, I could punish damn near everything, with Usmash, Fair, Uair, Ftilt and even sometimes Fsmash as situational punishes for laggier moves. This is no longer the case. Most moves are now only punishable by Nair and trampoline but with the better aerials in the game now being unpunishable on block.

Now if we take that and add to it that Pacman's ONLY disjoints are on the back of his Utilt, the tip of his Ftilt, jab 3 and his ghosts, then add to that how despite fast startup, none of his aerials have high priority or are + on block (hell 2 of them are - on hit!) and the problem starts to take form.

What this means is that while we were never able to challenge high priority moves before nor out space anyone with good disjoints, nor even overwhelm them with offense unless the person didn't know they could punish, we were able to beat high priority and spacing moves by moving into range, shielding and punishing. This allowed us to play the neutral at close/mid range to either get people off of us, weave in and out, or start combos. We can no longer rely on this option.

At this point good characters can just continuously throw out Hitboxes and there's nothing I can do about it unless I get a perfect shield.

Everyone to have realized these things since the patch dropped has bodied me, quite a few of them for the first time ever. Of those people, the ones I then played with Mario got wrecked, even though up until this patch dropped my Mario was nowhere near my Pacman's level.



It really feels like while our advantage state is still great, our neutral game has suffered immensely while other people's neutrals got better. Sure we can still change the way the neutral is played, but to do that we need to set up, and to do that we need to be able to create space. Unfortunately the tools we use to do that are the ones that have gotten worse through this patch.



As an ex-Injustice player, Pacman went from "a better joker" to "fuuuuuuuu... I remember this... I'm playing Joker again."


On the plus side, it is harder to punish his aggression now so people who aren't top level or knowledgeable of the MU may not figure out that they can punish you. That said MU ignorance is not the same thing as viability.


____


Someone please tell me I'm wrong. I enjoy this character a lot and have poured so much time into him, practiced so much tech, found so many setups... I don't want it all to be to have him relegated to a secondary.



EDIT

Just a quick question here. Who are the "known" PAC-MAN mains in Europe? I only know of me and Pepespain.

I remember hearing about one in Paris when I was in France, although I was told he wasn't on the same level as me. Considering I'm not on the same level as Pepes from what I see, I don't know how good he actually is.

 

[Nu~]

Unfortunately, I think you may have a point...

All this time, we've been so caught up in what we've gotten from the patch that we forgot about what others have gotten

 

[Froggy]

Guys... I need feedback. I need you guys to tell me I'm wrong and give me ways around this. Basically, I need help.


This patch has been out for a little while now, and I assume most of you have had time to play a number of matches with this patch. Now that we have probably gotten past the "ZOMG super situational shield break combo!!!", I want to discuss how this patch has affected us...

In truth, I think this patch hurt us quite a bit, like to the point of no longer being viable as a solo main. I am finding myself seriously considering putting Pac as a secondary and picking up Mario as a main, not because I want to, but because I don't think Pacman is a good character as of this patch.

This explanation is very long, and I REALLY want someone to disprove everything, show me that I can pass this by leveling up, and not be forced to shelve the character I love at a point where I was starting to do really well with him:

(TL: DR version This patch didn't help Pacman at all while crippling his best tools in the neutral.)
_______


Well as you guys all know, this patch made a lot of characters' offense much safer. Pacman is not one of them. Everything that was unsafe before (which is everything except his tilts) is still unsafe, just slightly harder to punish.By slightly harder I mean the timing to punish is stricter, but the same moves that used to punish us still punish us (For example, ZSS can still UpB us between DA hits, only now it only works when we DA her from behind and has a slightly stricter timing).

Now this was also unsafe before, so no big change, except that before I could force people to respect me as between trampoline and Nair, I could punish damn near everything, with Usmash, Fair, Uair, Ftilt and even sometimes Fsmash as situational punishes for laggier moves. This is no longer the case. Most moves are now only punishable by Nair and trampoline but with the better aerials in the game now being unpunishable on block.

Now if we take that and add to it that Pacman's ONLY disjoints are on the back of his Utilt, the tip of his Ftilt, jab 3 and his ghosts, then add to that how despite fast startup, none of his aerials have high priority or are + on block (hell 2 of them are - on hit!) and the problem starts to take form.

What this means is that while we were never able to challenge high priority moves before nor out space anyone with good disjoints, nor even overwhelm them with offense unless the person didn't know they could punish, we were able to beat high priority and spacing moves by moving into range, shielding and punishing. This allowed us to play the neutral at close/mid range to either get people off of us, weave in and out, or start combos. We can no longer rely on this option.

At this point good characters can just continuously throw out Hitboxes and there's nothing I can do about it unless I get a perfect shield.

Everyone to have realized these things since the patch dropped has bodied me, quite a few of them for the first time ever. Of those people, the ones I then played with Mario got wrecked, even though up until this patch dropped my Mario was nowhere near my Pacman's level.



It really feels like while our advantage state is still great, our neutral game has suffered immensely while other people's neutrals got better. Sure we can still change the way the neutral is played, but to do that we need to set up, and to do that we need to be able to create space. Unfortunately the tools we use to do that are the ones that have gotten worse through this patch.



As an ex-Injustice player, Pacman went from "a better joker" to "fuuuuuuuu... I remember this... I'm playing Joker again."


On the plus side, it is harder to punish his aggression now so people who aren't top level or knowledgeable of the MU may not figure out that they can punish you. That said MU ignorance is not the same thing as viability.


____


Someone please tell me I'm wrong. I enjoy this character a lot and have poured so much time into him, practiced so much tech, found so many setups... I don't want it all to be to have him relegated to a secondary.



EDIT


I remember hearing about one in Paris when I was in France, although I was told he wasn't on the same level as me. Considering I'm not on the same level as Pepes from what I see, I don't know how good he actually is.

personally I haven't had much trouble punishing people on shield any different than I had before the patch except against Ryu(that dair is stupid) maybe your're grabbing too much. Trying jabbing out of shield or trampolining more to punish laggy moves

I don't think Pacman needs to be regulated to anyone's secondary but I do think you need to have a secondary while playing him in order to do go far in larger tournaments!

 

[BSP]

_______


Well as you guys all know, this patch made a lot of characters' offense much safer. Pacman is not one of them. Everything that was unsafe before (which is everything except his tilts) is still unsafe, just slightly harder to punish.By slightly harder I mean the timing to punish is stricter, but the same moves that used to punish us still punish us (For example, ZSS can still UpB us between DA hits, only now it only works when we DA her from behind and has a slightly stricter timing).

Are you absolutely certain? I've been getting away with well spaced Bair a lot post patch. Against some characters now (admittedly, most of them are irrelevant as far as high level play goes), DA is unpunishable if you immediately follow with trampoline.

Now this was also unsafe before, so no big change, except that before I could force people to respect me as between trampoline and Nair, I could punish damn near everything, with Usmash, Fair, Uair, Ftilt and even sometimes Fsmash as situational punishes for laggier moves. This is no longer the case. Most moves are now only punishable by Nair and trampoline but with the better aerials in the game now being unpunishable on block.

Have you considered challenging attacks more as opposed to shielding them? We don't have the best range, but we do have options to challenge aerial approaches. Our Fair is fast while our Bair has pretty good range, and our ghosts are disjointed and will win any aerial exchange they come across. I know throwing out smashes in neutral seems bad, but that may be what the game requires now.

Now if we take that and add to it that Pacman's ONLY disjoints are on the back of his Utilt, the tip of his Ftilt, jab 3 and his ghosts, then add to that how despite fast startup, none of his aerials have high priority or are + on block (hell 2 of them are - on hit!) and the problem starts to take form.

Yeah, none of our aerials are + on hit, but they are all less negative on block, mainly Bair. Outside of that, the immeidate offensive implications of the patch never concerned me THAT much because it was never (and still isn't) our strong point.

What this means is that while we were never able to challenge high priority moves before nor out space anyone with good disjoints, nor even overwhelm them with offense unless the person didn't know they could punish, we were able to beat high priority and spacing moves by moving into range, shielding and punishing. This allowed us to play the neutral at close/mid range to either get people off of us, weave in and out, or start combos. We can no longer rely on this option.

At this point good characters can just continuously throw out Hitboxes and there's nothing I can do about it unless I get a perfect shield.

The only characters I've played against a lot post patch are Luigi and Villager, with the latter being awful to draw general conclusions from. Luigi isn't exactly good, but my strategy against him has changed a little bit. If I shield now, it's harder to punish anything he does. Now I'm inclined to space better in order to challenge his aerials with my Bair or smash his landings. It's a bit harder, but nothing we can't overcome IMO.

I fought a decent ZSS on wifi and it didn't take me long to notice how good her Nair is now. I'm assuming Sheik follows a similar pattern, and we're hard pressed to punish Mario on block anymore unless he spaces awfully. You could be right, in which case our only alternative is to throw out more attacks and go for trades (which we are capable of), or dodge outright. Does that make us outright worse in the long run? I don't know.

Everyone to have realized these things since the patch dropped has bodied me, quite a few of them for the first time ever. Of those people, the ones I then played with Mario got wrecked, even though up until this patch dropped my Mario was nowhere near my Pacman's level.

Character specifics?

It really feels like while our advantage state is still great, our neutral game has suffered immensely while other people's neutrals got better. Sure we can still change the way the neutral is played, but to do that we need to set up, and to do that we need to be able to create space. Unfortunately the tools we use to do that are the ones that have gotten worse through this patch.

This might be where it comes down to a playstyle difference. Looking at my gameplay, I'm much more prone to throw attacks and go for trades rather than shield -> wait to punish unless I know whatever they're going to do will be easily punishable on shield. If you rarely shield in neutral, this patch will have little effect on your opponent's neutral game vs. you. Since most characters want to approach us and we can force predictable air approaches, I look for challenges with Bair + smashes or beat people to the punch with fair all the time. Maybe that's why I'm feeling this less than you.

Trampoline didn't get any worse from this patch, nor did hydrant. Directly shielding did though, along with most of our OoS options.

On the plus side, it is harder to punish his aggression now so people who aren't top level or knowledgeable of the MU may not figure out that they can punish you. That said MU ignorance is not the same thing as viability.

Nah, it's still easy to avoid / block still. MU inexperience is what's keeping us afloat until we get buffs.

Someone please tell me I'm wrong. I enjoy this character a lot and have poured so much time into him, practiced so much tech, found so many setups... I don't want it all to be to have him relegated to a secondary.

You're right and wrong IMO. This patch IMO made it a lot more profitable to challenge things rather than shield them, and that's what I tend to do. I feel it from a defensive standpoint when I shield strong aerials, but it hasn't devastated my game plan because challenging was my preferred response anyway.

I wouldn't relegate Pac-Man to a second. Co-main him at the least. He still has some niche MUs where being able to alter neutral so much is a godsend. I recall you saying that you though Pac-Man vs MK was in MK's favor. I don't think Mario wins the MU (ANTi even switched off for abadango at TBH5), but I do think Pac-Man is even because he can completely ignore MK's preferred options in neutral.

On a different note, I think this patch was break even or better for Mario. I think a perfectly timed nair -> jab can't be shieldgrabbed, but I need to practice it.

 

[Froggy]

I would like to reiterate that I still block a lot and it just hasn't been a problem, counter off my shield still works in most of the cases it would have worked before, at the very least I'm not getting counter punished for it. Maybe I'll find things to complain about after my next monthly this weekend.

 

[Huge]

I guess we'll have to simply learn to perfect shield everything! Ah, well, the skill cap is there. Set shield to a button and get crankin'.

Anyway, just butting in here to ask a question about fruit. I remember reading somewhere that none of Pac's fruits are affected by rage or staling. Do any of you know if this is true?

 

[Nu~]

I guess we'll have to simply learn to perfect shield everything! Ah, well, the skill cap is there. Set shield to a button and get crankin'.

Anyway, just butting in here to ask a question about fruit. I remember reading somewhere that none of Pac's fruits are affected by rage or staling. Do any of you know if this is true?

That is correct

 

[dragontamer]

Finally got around to learning Foxtrot into Dash Dance / Extended Dash Dance into Stutter Step FSmashes or Dash Attacks.

I'm only getting it roughly... 50% of the time within battles. But its enough that when I pull it off, the opponent is definitely duped into thinking I'm retreating, and I seem to get the jump on the hit. PacMan's FSmash has so much range, that the Extended Dash Dance (false retreat) on the ledge is extremely useful for baiting neutral-getups from enemies, while simultaneously being far enough away that if they happen to Attack-getup off the ledge... you can space an attack that is safe from their attack.

I'm actually intrigued by this tech. I think that with the Dash Dance mastered, I should be able to cover neutral ledge getups, attack getups, and roll getups off a carefully spaced foxtrot away from the ledge. I'm not 100% sure yet however.

I have a long way to go before I have the skill to test out this theory though. PacMan isn't the best dash dancer, but it is still extremely solid tech that should be mastered. There's a lot of possibilities here. Still, I know I can cover Neutral Getup and Attack Getups with careful spacing and the Fox Trot (false retreat) -> Dash Dance -> Stutter FSmash routine. And that's already hella useful.

------------

I'm seriously trying to still stop rolling backwards all the damn time in this game. I catch myself making that mistake all too often. But now that Fox Trotting is entering my repertoire, I have noticed that I've begun to favor the fox-trot over rolling. Its just a lot safer to fox-trot around.

 

[Sinji]

Nintendo screwed up with its stage music for Pac Land. PacMan World 2 or Ms.Pacman music would be great.

This song would be great on Pac Land

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WapeWnX-FLI

 

[fromundaman]

Thank you guys for the replies, even if they are somewhat confirming my fears. I'm probably going to end up co-maining Mario.

I ended up typing a lot more MU stuff in here than I intended.
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personally I haven't had much trouble punishing people on shield any different than I had before the patch except against Ryu(that dair is stupid) maybe your're grabbing too much. Trying jabbing out of shield or trampolining more to punish laggy moves

I don't think Pacman needs to be regulated to anyone's secondary but I do think you need to have a secondary while playing him in order to do go far in larger tournaments!

I have pretty much completely eliminated grab from my game. I did use it as a punish option at one time, but now it only really works in some hydrant setups. I pretty much only punish with jabs, Nair and trampoline now.

____________

I guess we'll have to simply learn to perfect shield everything! Ah, well, the skill cap is there. Set shield to a button and get crankin'.

Anyway, just butting in here to ask a question about fruit. I remember reading somewhere that none of Pac's fruits are affected by rage or staling. Do any of you know if this is true?

Yes, this is true.

However saying we can PS everything is unrealistic. It would require either bad opponents or the ability to read minds.

_____________

Are you absolutely certain? I've been getting away with well spaced Bair a lot post patch. Against some characters now (admittedly, most of them are irrelevant as far as high level play goes), DA is unpunishable if you immediately follow with trampoline.

DA is still punishable between the hits like it was pre-patch. That said now it takes better OoS options to do it, so maybe *some* characters can't anymore (Used to be enough time to full jump OoS in between the hits, now it seems like it has to be fast aerials or UpBs OoS. Maybe grabs too but I haven't been grabbed mid-DA since the patch dropped so maybe that's no longer able to punish it?).

Perfectly spaced Bair actually probably is safe, since it wasn't too negative pre-patch. I haven't been punished for it on shield yet, but part of that is also because in the MUs where I desperately need a safe on block move, it usually gets straight up beaten due to the it's relative slow speed compared to Fair and Nair, and the fact that it loses to most disjointed aerials.

Have you considered challenging attacks more as opposed to shielding them? We don't have the best range, but we do have options to challenge aerial approaches. Our Fair is fast while our Bair has pretty good range, and our ghosts are disjointed and will win any aerial exchange they come across. I know throwing out smashes in neutral seems bad, but that may be what the game requires now.

I admit I haven't been intentionally trying for trades against most characters other than Shiek and sometimes MK. This may be the way to go. While I hate staling out Bair (I try to keep it relatively fresh to easily set up jab launched hydrants or late % kills), using it to trade may be what I need to start doing.

That said, it won't help me in some MUs where it straight up loses. Maybe throwing more pivot Fsmashes for spacing could work. So far I've been using Ftilt for ground spacing, but Fsmash definitely has more disjoint range.

Yeah, none of our aerials are + on hit, but they are all less negative on block, mainly Bair. Outside of that, the immeidate offensive implications of the patch never concerned me THAT much because it was never (and still isn't) our strong point.



The only characters I've played against a lot post patch are Luigi and Villager, with the latter being awful to draw general conclusions from. Luigi isn't exactly good, but my strategy against him has changed a little bit. If I shield now, it's harder to punish anything he does. Now I'm inclined to space better in order to challenge his aerials with my Bair or smash his landings. It's a bit harder, but nothing we can't overcome IMO.

I fought a decent ZSS on wifi and it didn't take me long to notice how good her Nair is now. I'm assuming Sheik follows a similar pattern, and we're hard pressed to punish Mario on block anymore unless he spaces awfully. You could be right, in which case our only alternative is to throw out more attacks and go for trades (which we are capable of), or dodge outright. Does that make us outright worse in the long run? I don't know.

While offense has never been a *strong* point per se, we have always been semi-competent at it (As in it's a viable approach to some MUs, and works well in some doubles teams). You are right that we have always shone in our defensive and neutral capabilities. Unfortunately those got nerfed and we have nothing to make up for it. With the meta shifting into a more aggressive direction, being only somewhat competent at what the meta requires while having our star attributes nerfed is painful.

Character specifics?

Here are the MUs I feel confident in making a post patch judgement about, either due to playing them a lot or because they didn't change too much:

-Villager: Pretty much the same as before. Only real changes are that blocking Lloyd is an even worse idea than before, perfect shielding is even more important against him, and that you ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT run in and block the 1st axe swing on the tree anymore. This used to be a great way to negate the entire tree setup, but now even the 1st swing will instant shield break.
Due to his Nair he can still punish everything he used to.

-Olimar: This MU has not changed much. Only real difference now is that you don't want to ever press shield in the MU anymore as shielding while being latched confirms into grab from half screen away. This in turn means paying more attention to his line up and avoiding whatever his current pikmin specializes in.
Other than that, Galaga in hand still destroys his entire gameplan/character. Z-dropped Galaga still kills any pikmin it touches, including the ones latched onto you, still launches hydrant at him well, and can still be thrown to kill any pikmin he uses to attack with while you follow for a free way in.
Just like pre-patch, grab galaga, throw hydrants at him and time him out.

-Kirby: One of my most played MUs. This MU went from 55-45 in our favor to a 6-4 in his I think. Kirby's feet are invincible, meaning that he outprioritizes us on his aerials (Our Uair and his Dair can trade if spaced correctly though). Now this has always been the case, but now Bair is completely safe and as long as Dair is spaced to land with his back to us just outside of trampoline range, Dair>Utilt is safe on block and punishes any OoS option we try. Keep in mind also that Kirby's Bair does 13-14% (I forget the exact number, but it 1-shots hydrant for the first few uses), so trading with it with an aerial is not in our favor. It can also grab out fruits like any aerial, or if he messes up it can cancel them out if the hitbox is out.

The only things I've found to get around this are hard reads with:
*SH AD Nair
*trying to throw an aerial hitbox where I think he will jump to before Bair comes out
*trying to bait him into whiffing it, reading the landing, and punishing with key while hoping he doesn't land with a well timed Nair to grab the key back from me.
*Run into it, try to read the timing, PS and punish
*Roll through it and hope he doesn't wait/react to the roll

His aerials feel like a brick wall now, but one that can also grab my items.

For some reason though his smashes don't feel like they got any added shieldstun. Hell, you can even drop shield and punish with Fsmash if he Fsmashes your shield. If that was possible pre-patch, I was unaware of it.

-Shiek: This MU doesn't feel too much different TBH. Everything that she could do before, she can still do, and I still fight her the same way, AKA hide behind hydrant, throw stuff at her, run away and repeat. Surprisingly, it seems like she still gets punished the same way we used to as well. It really makes me wonder if every character got the same amount of shieldstun added to their moves.

-Ness: Now I want to preface this by saying I have always had a personal bad MU with Ness that I am only starting to get over, so there may be some bias on this one. I did play a very good Ness at the tournament the weekend that the patch dropped, and game 1, I bodied him. Game 2 was close, with him pulling a clutch comeback and game 3 he destroyed me. He then explained that he just realized game 2 that I couldn't kill him if at high % he just empty jumped towards my shield, then pulled back and fade away Faired on reaction to whatever I tried. Looking back at it, every time he got to rage percents, that is what he would do. If I had realized it game 2 I could have attempted to stall for 5 minutes for a timeout, but by the time I caught on game 3, I couldn't. I mean there are ways around it, but they too revolve around a read.

-Wii Fit Trainer: Now this may not be a good reference point since IDK how many of you have MU experience with WFT, let alone enough to compare pre and post patch. That said we do have a very good WFT player in my scene, so I have played the MU quite a bit. Pre-patch, Pacman kind of **** on WFT. Soccer ball traps work like our hydrant in that we can use it against them, their charge shot is just like Samus' (AKA pellet block if you see it coming, be wary if you're playing a smart and unpredictable one), avoid the offstage spike gimmicks and punish literally everything on block and you're fine.

We outcamped them, out-damaged them (Slightly), had a better offense and a better defensive game than them while also having better traps and not caring much for WFT's rather good offstage game.

Fast forward post-patch, and part of why I don't think every character got the same amount of shield stun added to their moves.

*Don't block soccer ball if he let it dropped then launched it with a different move, ever. It confirms on block into grabs, and combos on hit. Try to hit it back every time.
*Nair is now either safe or super hard to punish on block (Need to test it more; the guy hasn't been able to attend our locals for the last few weeks). It seems to combo depending on if it crosses up or not on block into Ftilt and Dtilt (Back of Ftilt is safe now, Dtilt seems so as well), and gives them big damage if the Nair hits.
*Bair is now safe on block and outprioritizes out aerials... Yup this again....

I need to play the guy more to get a better idea of the MU, but his offensive and defensive capabilities shot up a lot from being able to safely approach and safely wall us now. His traps are much more legit as well, but still not as good as ours IMO.
I will say our post-patch tournament set is the only time this guy has ever beaten me though (He's legit, but that MU used to be booty).

-Bowser: Same as pre-patch. You can still punish him, you can still combo him, you can still somewhat rush him down. Only real difference is that now grounded DownB locks you in shield for the second hit for a guaranteed Shield Break.

-G&W: I want to preface this by saying this character is SUPER annoying to fight, and patch made him that much more annoying. He's definitely gained a lot from the patch, although IDK if I'd call this a bad MU yet. Definitely way harder than it was though.

*Bair is now completely safe.
*Fade away Fair can be made safe.
*Usmash is RIDICULOUSLY safe. Like as in, not only can you not punish it (I was told it's +7 unless PS'd), but if you let go of shield you will be punished by a Dtilt, which can be a kill move and is safe as well. This means a blocked Usmash leads into a mixup situation where he can Dtilt to punish you doing anything that isn't keep shielding, a grab to punish you for shielding, or if he wants to reset the situation and has you conditioned to shield, do a second Usmash and reset the situation with less shield. I believe by the 2nd Usmash, Dtilt will shieldpoke, but not 100% sure. The G&W player, despite boasting how good Usmash>Dtilt is now didn't seem to realize how strong of a mixup game this created.
Your best bet is to stay away from it and punish it with key (Even on whiff he recovers fast enough to punish a lot of our other options, and we have no moves that reliably beat the invincibility and reach his hurtbox).
*Mentioned it above, but Dtilt is safe.
*Dsmash is also safe, but not nearly as much as Usmash, and evasive options do work to escape a follow up.
*Most good G&W players don't use it, but a lot more of the judgement hammers became safe, most notably 5 or 6 (Whichever one does the electricity), which now murders shields and is + on block. The guy was trying to use it a bit more to see if this made it more worth using/worth the risk. Also surprisingly landing a 1 now has quite a bit of blockstun, despite no hitstun. Still punishable, but nowhere near as much as it used to be.

That said our Fair/Nair are faster than all of his aerials, so we can beat him to the punch a lot of the time, preventing him from completely walling us out. Key punishes everything and kills him rather early. We are one of the few characters to still be able to reliably combo G&W. His offstage presence and windboxes don't hurt us as much as some characters, even if they are super annoying to deal with.

-Little Mac: I have trouble taking this character seriously XD
Anyway same game plan as before: Place trampolines, murder him when he gets launched or just throw stuff from behind the trampolines while looking out for side B. That said, be careful, you ABSOLUTELY do not want to be in a position where you have to block against him anymore. Dtilt>angled Fsmash is guaranteed on block and instant-breaks a shield.

-Samus:

Dair and Bair are now safe on block. DA is safe on block. Ftilt is safe when spaced now. Dtilt is +. Don't block bombs, ever.

Other than that it's hard to say exactly what changed, but the MU feels much harder for me now; maybe the guy just leveled up though? IDK.
That said I need to get pellet blocking down better; I am still bad at it and hurts me in this MU.

This might be where it comes down to a playstyle difference. Looking at my gameplay, I'm much more prone to throw attacks and go for trades rather than shield -> wait to punish unless I know whatever they're going to do will be easily punishable on shield. If you rarely shield in neutral, this patch will have little effect on your opponent's neutral game vs. you. Since most characters want to approach us and we can force predictable air approaches, I look for challenges with Bair + smashes or beat people to the punch with fair all the time. Maybe that's why I'm feeling this less than you.

Trampoline didn't get any worse from this patch, nor did hydrant. Directly shielding did though, along with most of our OoS options.

Hmmm true. I really hope I can adapt and get over this. I do feel like my entire playstyle has been neutered.

Nah, it's still easy to avoid / block still. MU inexperience is what's keeping us afloat until we get buffs.

*Sigh* Yeah... Sadly I don't think we will ever get buffed. Due to our high potential, especially during advantage state, it is easy to justify shooting our neutral in the foot.

*Sigh* If you give me enough blockstun on Fair to true combo on block into Nair or retreat safely, I could make this work. Or maybe a passive ability to make us suffer less blockstun that other characters to allow us to specialize in punishes. I could make that work too... Ah well, a man can dream.
In the meantime, I need to adapt. That and work on my Mario.

You're right and wrong IMO. This patch IMO made it a lot more profitable to challenge things rather than shield them, and that's what I tend to do. I feel it from a defensive standpoint when I shield strong aerials, but it hasn't devastated my game plan because challenging was my preferred response anyway.

I wouldn't relegate Pac-Man to a second. Co-main him at the least. He still has some niche MUs where being able to alter neutral so much is a godsend. I recall you saying that you though Pac-Man vs MK was in MK's favor. I don't think Mario wins the MU (ANTi even switched off for abadango at TBH5), but I do think Pac-Man is even because he can completely ignore MK's preferred options in neutral.

On a different note, I think this patch was break even or better for Mario. I think a perfectly timed nair -> jab can't be shieldgrabbed, but I need to practice it.

I can understand that. Also I changed my mind on MK. When I said that Katakiri (Who is vastly better than me and the best player in my state) had been my first true exposure to MK, and he demolished me while explaining all the things MK could do to Pacman in the MU. This gave me sort of a biased view based more on someone else's experience than my own.

I agree though that I should co-main.

I also agree that Mario got better. Pretty certain both Nair and FF Uair became + on block, and I've been successfully able to punish anyone trying to punish me for either. This in turn leads to some stupid mixups on block and allows me to just be stupidly aggressive with him.

 

[Maziyah]

We as a collective needs a vast majority of mix ups, it kinda scares me that playing with someone over time they just get adapted to all of your tricks and so forth.

 

[fromundaman]

We as a collective needs a vast majority of mix ups, it kinda scares me that playing with someone over time they just get adapted to all of your tricks and so forth.

That is true. Thankfully it seems like almost every setup can lead into multiple scenarios, making it so even someone who has learned all of your gimmicks still has to guess which one you'll pull out.

 

[Maziyah]

That is true. Thankfully it seems like almost every setup can lead into multiple scenarios, making it so even someone who has learned all of your gimmicks still has to guess which one you'll pull out.

Seriously, but idk I feel like were on the verge of something great but im going to lab and see what I can do.

 

[Nu~]

I personally feel that assuming we'll drop to mid tier when people "expose all of our traps" is short sighted.

We still have ways around counterplay and we haven't even explored all of our tools yet. Even our biggest weakness, shield, has been nerfed to the point were holding shield at kill % isn't a valid strategy.

 

[fromundaman]

I do want to say one thing real quick:

Thank you BSP

While I haven't yet had much time to see if going for trades is going to help in all of the MUs that suddenly became problematic for me, it has certainly seemed helpful in the short time I've been messing with it. That and holy crap retreating pivot Fsmash is WAAAAY better than I was giving it credit for, especially now that it is + on block if spaced correctly.

Replacing a good portion of my Fair usage with Bair is also making a difference. While it doesn't give me all of the same mixups as Fair does, it is allowing me to force respect once again in a lot of situations, allowing me to later mix it up with the Fair mixups.

EDIT:

That said I'm still going to be leveling up my Mario. I do feel even with this I may still need to actually start pulling him out for certain players/MUs.

 

[Zage]

Good luck at MLG this weekend BSP !

I saw you're going to fight Captain Zack in dubs, I played him sometimes on wifi but I'm pretty sure you can mix it up and catch him off guard.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I swear, the more I play Pac-Man, the funner he is

 

[Maziyah]

GOOD LUCK BSP we all believe in you!

 

[BSP]

Good luck at MLG this weekend BSP !

I saw you're going to fight Captain Zack in dubs, I played him sometimes on wifi but I'm pretty sure you can mix it up and catch him off guard.

Brawlman and I still have peach problems. We did much better this time, but Zack and Samsora still took it 2-0 over us.

I guess I can do a summary of MLG so far for me.

Friday + Saturday:
Played tons of friendlies. Did very well vs MVD's diddy, went 1-1 with Sol (little Mac) in money matches, got destroyed by NAKAT, played KJ and The Wall in doubles a lot...there's too much stuff to remember before the tournament, but I'm got a lot of experience.

In teams Brawlman and I ran into Nairo and Zero round 2, but we didn't get destroyed. Each game was a 3 stock (we lost 2-0), but I missed a clutch reverse Fair with Mario game 2 that could've easily led us into game three. Oh well. We did much better against those two than I expected, so no complaints really. The rest of doubles for us was playing , eliminating, and being eliminated by our fellow LA players :/

Saturday, I had pools at 10AM. I won my first match with very close games with a TX sheik/roy, and then barely pulled off a win against Denti. Then I played Nairo on stream. I got 2-0'd, but I didn't get destroyed in the slightest. I feel like the top players are one step higher than me, and I could easily climb that step if I traveled more. Maybe in the future. Anyway, I lost loser's finals of my pool 2-1 to SaSSy, a TX R.O.B. So I got 33rd, which isn't too bad for my first smash 4 national.

After I got knocked out, I played lots of friendlies alternating with Pac-Man and Mario. My Pac-Man felt much weaker than Mario in some MUs, yet significantly stronger in others. I had close games with Ally's Mario as Pac-Man, but I could never take any of them. I'm 0-8 or something with him in games now, but I enjoyed the experience nonetheless. I played D1's fox + greninja and went toe to toe with those, went toe to toe with TKBreezy's wii fit, got destroyed by ESAM, violated by Ryo, went even with Gadiel Vadstar's Rosalina and Palutena, had good games with Tesh's Pac-Man and Mega Man, KJ's Sonic, False's Ryu, alternated between going even with and getting 2 stocked by mega fox, and I'm losing track of everything else. In other words I played a LOT.

I asked NAKAT for advice because he 2 stocked me easily. He said I needed to be more creative with Pac-Man or else what I'm going to do is very obvious, so I guess I need to go back to the drawing board and see what Pac-Man has over other characters. Maybe I need to abuse hydrant water more or something. He said look at what Abadango and Kool Aid do. I already do, but I guess I need to look harder, and especially at what Kool Aid did when he played Pac-Man.

I have to eat my words on my theory vs Falcon. We can camp the ledge, but we don't get much out of it if he waits and plays smart. I took maybe 2 out of at least 10 games I played with different Falcons over the last two days. I need to mix it up more in that MU.

GOOD LUCK BSP we all believe in you!

I did ok. I'm still clearly a cut below the top level players, so I've got work to do if I want to get my name on the board.

 

[Nu~]

Brawlman and I still have peach problems. We did much better this time, but Zack and Samsora still took it 2-0 over us.

I guess I can do a summary of MLG so far for me.

Friday + Saturday:
Played tons of friendlies. Did very well vs MVD's diddy, went 1-1 with Sol (little Mac) in money matches, got destroyed by NAKAT, played KJ and The Wall in doubles a lot...there's too much stuff to remember before the tournament, but I'm got a lot of experience.

In teams Brawlman and I ran into Nairo and Zero round 2, but we didn't get destroyed. Each game was a 3 stock (we lost 2-0), but I missed a clutch reverse Fair with Mario game 2 that could've easily led us into game three. Oh well. We did much better against those two than I expected, so no complaints really. The rest of doubles for us was playing , eliminating, and being eliminated by our fellow LA players :/

Saturday, I had pools at 10AM. I won my first match with very close games with a TX sheik/roy, and then barely pulled off a win against Denti. Then I played Nairo on stream. I got 2-0'd, but I didn't get destroyed in the slightest. I feel like the top players are one step higher than me, and I could easily climb that step if I traveled more. Maybe in the future. Anyway, I lost loser's finals of my pool 2-1 to SaSSy, a TX R.O.B. So I got 33rd, which isn't too bad for my first smash 4 national.

After I got knocked out, I played lots of friendlies alternating with Pac-Man and Mario. My Pac-Man felt much weaker than Mario in some MUs, yet significantly stronger in others. I had close games with Ally's Mario as Pac-Man, but I could never take any of them. I'm 0-8 or something with him in games now, but I enjoyed the experience nonetheless. I played D1's fox + greninja and went toe to toe with those, went toe to toe with TKBreezy's wii fit, got destroyed by ESAM, violated by Ryo, went even with Gadiel Vadstar's Rosalina and Palutena, had good games with Tesh's Pac-Man and Mega Man, KJ's Sonic, False's Ryu, alternated between going even with and getting 2 stocked by mega fox, and I'm losing track of everything else. In other words I played a LOT.

I asked NAKAT for advice because he 2 stocked me easily. He said I needed to be more creative with Pac-Man or else what I'm going to do is very obvious, so I guess I need to go back to the drawing board and see what Pac-Man has over other characters. Maybe I need to abuse hydrant water more or something. He said look at what Abadango and Kool Aid do. I already do, but I guess I need to look harder, and especially at what Kool Aid did when he played Pac-Man.

I have to eat my words on my theory vs Falcon. We can camp the ledge, but we don't get much out of it if he waits and plays smart. I took maybe 2 out of at least 10 games I played with different Falcons over the last two days. I need to mix it up more in that MU.



I did ok. I'm still clearly a cut below the top level players, so I've got work to do if I want to get my name on the board.

Nice one dude! Sounds like you gave those players a run for their money. To go toe to toe with all of those names speaks volumes.

I kind of had a feeling that the lack of creativity in your gameplay was the biggest thing holding you back. Your fundamentals are solid but I feel that you tend to fall back on familiar strategies (ex. Trampoline ledge camping) when things get tough.

NAKAT plays with Koolaid a lot and helped train @Jenny Wakeman in his zero to hero program so he probably has seen all the basic pacman tricks.

 

[N3ON]

I'm... uh... just gonna leave this here:

I wonder who he mains in Smash.

Forgive me if already posted. Actually just forgive me in general.

 

[Nu~]

I'm... uh... just gonna leave this here:

I wonder who he mains in Smash.

Forgive me if already posted. Actually just forgive me in general.

...

 

[fromundaman]

Heh, I'm probably the exact opposite. My fundamentals aren't where I want them to be, but man I have a lot of gimmicks (Too many for me to remember to pull out mid-match sometimes).


Delayed Hydrant and delayed fruit launches are a VERY good way to mix things up though. No one ever sees those coming, and they are the best way to catch an opponent trying to time you out since you can herd them into the path of the delayed projectile without their knowing.


As for Falcon... IDK I tend to do a mix of super defensive and super offensive to keep him guessing. While his approach tools aren't bad, he has to be careful approaching us and has trouble getting us off if we get in/get started. That said it's never a particularly easy MU. I always feel like it can go either way anytime I play any Falcon who has a clue of what they're doing.

 

[Splebel]

I don't know. I fought a guy and I did the bell trick and the first time I did it he saw it coming even when I did a grab into nowhere. Delayed fruit launches and the like only seem good if the opponent has never seen it before or is very distracted.

 

[Froggy]

I feel like such a beast after getting 5th place at a 71 man tournament. I feel like I may be top 10 in the state right now.

Its a shame that today's tourney scene is so focused on the live stream. I missed the days when we tried to record a lot of matches, not just a select few winners bracket matches and late losers matches. So many hype insightful matches happen off stream.

 

[BSP]

I don't know. I fought a guy and I did the bell trick and the first time I did it he saw it coming even when I did a grab into nowhere. Delayed fruit launches and the like only seem good if the opponent has never seen it before or is very distracted.

This is the problem with our creative setups. They only go so far, and they still fall to shield baring using hydrant water to push people offstage/into trampoline for a side B, which is super telegraphed and takes too much time.

I don't know if Pac-Man has the speed to keep up with the good characters with better buttons. If they buff him any though, he'll destroy anyone that can't catch him quickly. I don't think we're going to get any buffs any time soon, yet I don't think we can keep up either...

 

[Froggy]

This is the problem with our creative setups. They only go so far, and they still fall to shield baring using hydrant water to push people offstage/into trampoline for a side B, which is super telegraphed and takes too much time.

I don't know if Pac-Man has the speed to keep up with the good characters with better buttons. If they buff him any though, he'll destroy anyone that can't catch him quickly. I don't think we're going to get any buffs any time soon, yet I don't think we can keep up either...

MLG really did a lot to damage your Pacman esteem didn't it?

I think Pacman can keep up with any character who isn't Shiek. It just requires you to get them to play your game. Even characters like Fox who love jump over trampoline and reflect fruits, it's all still fairly telegraphed. It important that you understand what there counter to your strategy is likely to be BEFORE HAND, and then punish them appropriately.

I have never been as confident in Pacman as I am right now.

 

[Nu~]

MLG really did a lot to damage your Pacman esteem didn't it?

I think Pacman can keep up with any character who isn't Shiek. It just requires you to get them to play your game. Even characters like Fox who love jump or trampoline and reflect fruits, it's all still fairly telegraphed. It important that you understand what there counter to your strategy is likely to be BEFORE HAND, and then punish them appropriately.

I have never been as confident in Pacman as I am right now.

He's always been this pessimistic tbh

 

[Froggy]

He's always been this pessimistic tbh

Well after the new patch to shields he was saying that he had never felt more confident in Pacman, but that might be out the window now

Also both of you go talk about yourselves in the Social thread.

 

[NimbusSpark]

I think Pacman can keep up with any character who isn't Shiek. It just requires you to get them to play your game. Even characters like Fox who love jump or trampoline and reflect fruits, it's all still fairly telegraphed. It important that you understand what there counter to your strategy is likely to be BEFORE HAND, and then punish them appropriately.

I have never been as confident in Pacman as I am right now.

Agreed. Besides, if you didn't realise, mobility, whilst useful, is not actually 100% compulsory to have in order to be a 'top tier' character. Ness has such strong tools despite the curse of his poor mobility, and he's considered to be an excellent character whom is viable for competitive play. Even Villager has mobility issues yet he still remains to be a solid character.

In Pac-Man's case though, our mobility isn't too bad. A good air-speed coupled with the fact Pac-Man's movement is somewhat floaty is a good start, and usually Pac-Man is difficult to juggle which negates most weak points of his slow fall speed. His ground movement isn't terrible either, although it might be said it's on the lower end of the spectrum. It's below-average, but workable.

 

[Huge]

One thing I've been trying to work on between biweeklies is my landing. I feel like Pac gets a "free ride" back to neutral in low-level play because of Hydrant airstalling, but as you rise up the ranks people start realizing just how easy it is to counter. Actually, landing isn't the only thing I need to fix: Pac's so weird compared to the rest of the cast that players often won't punish you for doing things you really shouldn't. This builds some very bad habits. I've been playing a very basic character a lot lately in an attempt to detox myself from Pac's strange options.

Anyway, from what I've read on these forums, I can tell that others are running into the same wall. We lack fundamentals, and we try to patch up that hole with the jank that should only supplement our gameplay. You gotta think holistically and jank quietly, people!

 

[fromundaman]

I don't know. I fought a guy and I did the bell trick and the first time I did it he saw it coming even when I did a grab into nowhere. Delayed fruit launches and the like only seem good if the opponent has never seen it before or is very distracted.

Bell trick is super vague... Are you talking about Uthrowing the bell in front of the water, because that's not really a delayed launch. I mean kind of but not at all what I mean.

I'm talking about things like hit hydrant once, Z-drop a fruit on the upwards water spout, run towards the opponent and play normally so that the hydrant goes off screen, and once the fruit lands it will launch the hydrant without the opponent being able to see where it is/where it is going/when it was launched (The when depends on where in the upwards water spurt you Z-dropped the fruit, as well as whether it's a piercing fruit or not).

I can make a short video about a bunch of different delayed fruits/hydrant setups to show why they can be useful, despite the admittedly long setup time.

This is the problem with our creative setups. They only go so far, and they still fall to shield baring using hydrant water to push people offstage/into trampoline for a side B, which is super telegraphed and takes too much time.

I don't know if Pac-Man has the speed to keep up with the good characters with better buttons. If they buff him any though, he'll destroy anyone that can't catch him quickly. I don't think we're going to get any buffs any time soon, yet I don't think we can keep up either...

I'm honestly starting to agree with you. The thing that plays the MOST in our favor IMO is that we have more gimmicks than someone can reliably learn to counter in just a set or two, and that our gimmicks are very strong.

With enough MU experience though it starts to get bad... Not saying unwinnable, but MUs get much worse when someone knows how to counterplay us correctly.

MLG really did a lot to damage your Pacman esteem didn't it?

I think Pacman can keep up with any character who isn't Shiek. It just requires you to get them to play your game. Even characters like Fox who love jump over trampoline and reflect fruits, it's all still fairly telegraphed. It important that you understand what there counter to your strategy is likely to be BEFORE HAND, and then punish them appropriately.

I have never been as confident in Pacman as I am right now.

Really? I feel Shiek is one of our best top tier MUs in this post patch world. She's one of the few who didn't benefit much,

One thing I've been trying to work on between biweeklies is my landing. I feel like Pac gets a "free ride" back to neutral in low-level play because of Hydrant airstalling, but as you rise up the ranks people start realizing just how easy it is to counter. Actually, landing isn't the only thing I need to fix: Pac's so weird compared to the rest of the cast that players often won't punish you for doing things you really shouldn't. This builds some very bad habits. I've been playing a very basic character a lot lately in an attempt to detox myself from Pac's strange options.

Anyway, from what I've read on these forums, I can tell that others are running into the same wall. We lack fundamentals, and we try to patch up that hole with the jank that should only supplement our gameplay. You gotta think holistically and jank quietly, people!

While I completely agree to a certain extent, it's also because Pacman is not a character who strongly rewards fundamentals (Compared to most others), but does strongly reward jank.

 

[Froggy]

One thing I've been trying to work on between biweeklies is my landing. I feel like Pac gets a "free ride" back to neutral in low-level play because of Hydrant airstalling, but as you rise up the ranks people start realizing just how easy it is to counter. Actually, landing isn't the only thing I need to fix: Pac's so weird compared to the rest of the cast that players often won't punish you for doing things you really shouldn't. This builds some very bad habits. I've been playing a very basic character a lot lately in an attempt to detox myself from Pac's strange options.


Anyway, from what I've read on these forums, I can tell that others are running into the same wall. We lack fundamentals, and we try to patch up that hole with the jank that should only supplement our gameplay. You gotta think holistically and jank quietly, people!

I agree and disagree on some level. Pacman does NOT get a free ride back down to the stage, but his landing options is still better than a lot of the cast. But I think his landing options are still above average, because the counter to punish the hydrant is fairly telegraphed, they need to stand away from you wait for you to drop the hydrant and then punish you from the side. Once you see that’s what they’re going for then fast fall and don’t drop the hydrant. As far as fundamentals go that Pac players need to improve upon, I don’t think landing needs to be one of them

Really? I feel Shiek is one of our best top tier MUs in this post patch world. She's one of the few who didn't benefit much,

Post or pre patch i still think its our worst matchup. That being said, something I learned while playing friendlies with the best Shiek in New England is that a large of why the match seems so tough is because shiek is one of the few characters that can consistently punish trampoline on whiff, however to do this she must react nearly immediately. Therefore if you realize she is punishing you consistently then just start falling back to the other side of the trampoline, it is NOT always our best option to retreat to the side of the trampoline that is further away from our opponent, I think this is a mixup all of us need to start incorporating into our game wherever appropriate.

 

[Huge]

they need to stand away from you wait for you to drop the hydrant and then punish you from the side.

Unfortunately, this isn't true. This is what I mean with bad habits! An experienced player can hallenge the hydrant from below to get at the exposed PAC above. The midair hydrant is neutralized by some surprisingly weak hitboxes. If you want to land well with the MAN, you've got to look at what your opponent will go for, and not just press the all-purpose escape button. Pac does have some great tools: hydrant, sideb to ledge, upair and fruit to momentum stall, etc. But relying too much on one of those is going to get you punished, hard!

 

[Froggy]

Unfortunately, this isn't true. This is what I mean with bad habits! An experienced player can hallenge the hydrant from below to get at the exposed PAC above. The midair hydrant is neutralized by some surprisingly weak hitboxes. If you want to land well with the MAN, you've got to look at what your opponent will go for, and not just press the all-purpose escape button. Pac does have some great tools: hydrant, sideb to ledge, upair and fruit to momentum stall, etc. But relying too much on one of those is going to get you punished, hard!

Only a few characters with certain moves are capable of doing that(Rob, Shiek, Villager, etc) and because they need to beat the hydrant the mixups they have for altering there timings to hit you is limited. Its the kinda thing where video evidence is much better than explaining it, its a shame that none of my matches from my last two tournies were recorded.

 

[Huge]

I see, I guess it's just something that we need to experiment a lot more with...

 

[fromundaman]

Only a few characters with certain moves are capable of doing that(Rob, Shiek, Villager, etc) and because they need to beat the hydrant the mixups they have for altering there timings to hit you is limited. Its the kinda thing where video evidence is much better than explaining it, its a shame that none of my matches from my last two tournies were recorded.

Actually almost everyone has at least one move that can. As long as their hitbox hits the hydrant before the hydrant hits their hurtbox, the hydrant will be negated (So basically any disjoint, except Rosa Uair for some reason?).

That said you are right that it makes them a little more predictable. It's still a habit that good players can easily punish.