Thank you guys for the replies, even if they are somewhat confirming my fears. I'm probably going to end up co-maining Mario.
I ended up typing a lot more MU stuff in here than I intended.
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personally I haven't had much trouble punishing people on shield any different than I had before the patch except against Ryu(that dair is stupid) maybe your're grabbing too much. Trying jabbing out of shield or trampolining more to punish laggy moves
I don't think Pacman needs to be regulated to anyone's secondary but I do think you need to have a secondary while playing him in order to do go far in larger tournaments!
I have pretty much completely eliminated grab from my game. I did use it as a punish option at one time, but now it only really works in some hydrant setups. I pretty much only punish with jabs, Nair and trampoline now.
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I guess we'll have to simply learn to perfect shield everything! Ah, well, the skill cap is there. Set shield to a button and get crankin'.
Anyway, just butting in here to ask a question about fruit. I remember reading somewhere that none of Pac's fruits are affected by rage or staling. Do any of you know if this is true?
Yes, this is true.
However saying we can PS everything is unrealistic. It would require either bad opponents or the ability to read minds.
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Are you absolutely certain? I've been getting away with well spaced Bair a lot post patch. Against some characters now (admittedly, most of them are irrelevant as far as high level play goes), DA is unpunishable if you immediately follow with trampoline.
DA is still punishable between the hits like it was pre-patch. That said now it takes better OoS options to do it, so maybe *some* characters can't anymore (Used to be enough time to full jump OoS in between the hits, now it seems like it has to be fast aerials or UpBs OoS. Maybe grabs too but I haven't been grabbed mid-DA since the patch dropped so maybe that's no longer able to punish it?).
Perfectly spaced Bair actually probably is safe, since it wasn't too negative pre-patch. I haven't been punished for it on shield yet, but part of that is also because in the MUs where I desperately need a safe on block move, it usually gets straight up beaten due to the it's relative slow speed compared to Fair and Nair, and the fact that it loses to most disjointed aerials.
Have you considered challenging attacks more as opposed to shielding them? We don't have the best range, but we do have options to challenge aerial approaches. Our Fair is fast while our Bair has pretty good range, and our ghosts are disjointed and will win any aerial exchange they come across. I know throwing out smashes in neutral seems bad, but that may be what the game requires now.
I admit I haven't been intentionally trying for trades against most characters other than Shiek and sometimes MK. This may be the way to go. While I hate staling out Bair (I try to keep it relatively fresh to easily set up jab launched hydrants or late % kills), using it to trade may be what I need to start doing.
That said, it won't help me in some MUs where it straight up loses. Maybe throwing more pivot Fsmashes for spacing could work. So far I've been using Ftilt for ground spacing, but Fsmash definitely has more disjoint range.
Yeah, none of our aerials are + on hit, but they are all less negative on block, mainly Bair. Outside of that, the immeidate offensive implications of the patch never concerned me THAT much because it was never (and still isn't) our strong point.
The only characters I've played against a lot post patch are Luigi and Villager, with the latter being awful to draw general conclusions from. Luigi isn't exactly good, but my strategy against him has changed a little bit. If I shield now, it's harder to punish anything he does. Now I'm inclined to space better in order to challenge his aerials with my Bair or smash his landings. It's a bit harder, but nothing we can't overcome IMO.
I fought a decent ZSS on wifi and it didn't take me long to notice how good her Nair is now. I'm assuming Sheik follows a similar pattern, and we're hard pressed to punish Mario on block anymore unless he spaces awfully. You could be right, in which case our only alternative is to throw out more attacks and go for trades (which we are capable of), or dodge outright. Does that make us outright worse in the long run? I don't know.
While offense has never been a *strong* point per se, we have always been semi-competent at it (As in it's a viable approach to some MUs, and works well in some doubles teams). You are right that we have always shone in our defensive and neutral capabilities. Unfortunately those got nerfed and we have nothing to make up for it. With the meta shifting into a more aggressive direction, being only somewhat competent at what the meta requires while having our star attributes nerfed is painful.
Here are the MUs I feel confident in making a post patch judgement about, either due to playing them a lot or because they didn't change too much:
-Villager: Pretty much the same as before. Only real changes are that blocking Lloyd is an even worse idea than before, perfect shielding is even more important against him, and that you ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT run in and block the 1st axe swing on the tree anymore. This used to be a great way to negate the entire tree setup, but now even the 1st swing will instant shield break.
Due to his Nair he can still punish everything he used to.
-Olimar: This MU has not changed much. Only real difference now is that you don't want to ever press shield in the MU anymore as shielding while being latched confirms into grab from half screen away. This in turn means paying more attention to his line up and avoiding whatever his current pikmin specializes in.
Other than that, Galaga in hand still destroys his entire gameplan/character. Z-dropped Galaga still kills any pikmin it touches, including the ones latched onto you, still launches hydrant at him well, and can still be thrown to kill any pikmin he uses to attack with while you follow for a free way in.
Just like pre-patch, grab galaga, throw hydrants at him and time him out.
-Kirby: One of my most played MUs. This MU went from 55-45 in our favor to a 6-4 in his I think. Kirby's feet are invincible, meaning that he outprioritizes us on his aerials (Our Uair and his Dair can trade if spaced correctly though). Now this has always been the case, but now Bair is completely safe and as long as Dair is spaced to land with his back to us just outside of trampoline range, Dair>Utilt is safe on block and punishes any OoS option we try. Keep in mind also that Kirby's Bair does 13-14% (I forget the exact number, but it 1-shots hydrant for the first few uses), so trading with it with an aerial is not in our favor. It can also grab out fruits like any aerial, or if he messes up it can cancel them out if the hitbox is out.
The only things I've found to get around this are hard reads with:
*SH AD Nair
*trying to throw an aerial hitbox where I think he will jump to before Bair comes out
*trying to bait him into whiffing it, reading the landing, and punishing with key while hoping he doesn't land with a well timed Nair to grab the key back from me.
*Run into it, try to read the timing, PS and punish
*Roll through it and hope he doesn't wait/react to the roll
His aerials feel like a brick wall now, but one that can also grab my items.
For some reason though his smashes don't feel like they got any added shieldstun. Hell, you can even drop shield and punish with Fsmash if he Fsmashes your shield. If that was possible pre-patch, I was unaware of it.
-Shiek: This MU doesn't feel too much different TBH. Everything that she could do before, she can still do, and I still fight her the same way, AKA hide behind hydrant, throw stuff at her, run away and repeat. Surprisingly, it seems like she still gets punished the same way we used to as well. It really makes me wonder if every character got the same amount of shieldstun added to their moves.
-Ness: Now I want to preface this by saying I have always had a personal bad MU with Ness that I am only starting to get over, so there may be some bias on this one. I did play a very good Ness at the tournament the weekend that the patch dropped, and game 1, I bodied him. Game 2 was close, with him pulling a clutch comeback and game 3 he destroyed me. He then explained that he just realized game 2 that I couldn't kill him if at high % he just empty jumped towards my shield, then pulled back and fade away Faired on reaction to whatever I tried. Looking back at it, every time he got to rage percents, that is what he would do. If I had realized it game 2 I could have attempted to stall for 5 minutes for a timeout, but by the time I caught on game 3, I couldn't. I mean there are ways around it, but they too revolve around a read.
-Wii Fit Trainer: Now this may not be a good reference point since IDK how many of you have MU experience with WFT, let alone enough to compare pre and post patch. That said we do have a very good WFT player in my scene, so I have played the MU quite a bit. Pre-patch, Pacman kind of **** on WFT. Soccer ball traps work like our hydrant in that we can use it against them, their charge shot is just like Samus' (AKA pellet block if you see it coming, be wary if you're playing a smart and unpredictable one), avoid the offstage spike gimmicks and punish literally everything on block and you're fine.
We outcamped them, out-damaged them (Slightly), had a better offense and a better defensive game than them while also having better traps and not caring much for WFT's rather good offstage game.
Fast forward post-patch, and part of why I don't think every character got the same amount of shield stun added to their moves.
*Don't block soccer ball if he let it dropped then launched it with a different move, ever. It confirms on block into grabs, and combos on hit. Try to hit it back every time.
*Nair is now either safe or super hard to punish on block (Need to test it more; the guy hasn't been able to attend our locals for the last few weeks). It seems to combo depending on if it crosses up or not on block into Ftilt and Dtilt (Back of Ftilt is safe now, Dtilt seems so as well), and gives them big damage if the Nair hits.
*Bair is now safe on block and outprioritizes out aerials... Yup this again....
I need to play the guy more to get a better idea of the MU, but his offensive and defensive capabilities shot up a lot from being able to safely approach and safely wall us now. His traps are much more legit as well, but still not as good as ours IMO.
I will say our post-patch tournament set is the only time this guy has ever beaten me though (He's legit, but that MU used to be booty).
-Bowser: Same as pre-patch. You can still punish him, you can still combo him, you can still somewhat rush him down. Only real difference is that now grounded DownB locks you in shield for the second hit for a guaranteed Shield Break.
-G&W: I want to preface this by saying this character is SUPER annoying to fight, and patch made him that much more annoying. He's definitely gained a lot from the patch, although IDK if I'd call this a bad MU yet. Definitely way harder than it was though.
*Bair is now completely safe.
*Fade away Fair can be made safe.
*Usmash is RIDICULOUSLY safe. Like as in, not only can you not punish it (I was told it's +7 unless PS'd), but if you let go of shield you will be punished by a Dtilt, which can be a kill move and is safe as well. This means a blocked Usmash leads into a mixup situation where he can Dtilt to punish you doing anything that isn't keep shielding, a grab to punish you for shielding, or if he wants to reset the situation and has you conditioned to shield, do a second Usmash and reset the situation with less shield. I believe by the 2nd Usmash, Dtilt will shieldpoke, but not 100% sure. The G&W player, despite boasting how good Usmash>Dtilt is now didn't seem to realize how strong of a mixup game this created.
Your best bet is to stay away from it and punish it with key (Even on whiff he recovers fast enough to punish a lot of our other options, and we have no moves that reliably beat the invincibility and reach his hurtbox).
*Mentioned it above, but Dtilt is safe.
*Dsmash is also safe, but not nearly as much as Usmash, and evasive options do work to escape a follow up.
*Most good G&W players don't use it, but a lot more of the judgement hammers became safe, most notably 5 or 6 (Whichever one does the electricity), which now murders shields and is + on block. The guy was trying to use it a bit more to see if this made it more worth using/worth the risk. Also surprisingly landing a 1 now has quite a bit of blockstun, despite no hitstun. Still punishable, but nowhere near as much as it used to be.
That said our Fair/Nair are faster than all of his aerials, so we can beat him to the punch a lot of the time, preventing him from completely walling us out. Key punishes everything and kills him rather early. We are one of the few characters to still be able to reliably combo G&W. His offstage presence and windboxes don't hurt us as much as some characters, even if they are super annoying to deal with.
-Little Mac: I have trouble taking this character seriously XD
Anyway same game plan as before: Place trampolines, murder him when he gets launched or just throw stuff from behind the trampolines while looking out for side B. That said, be careful, you ABSOLUTELY do not want to be in a position where you have to block against him anymore. Dtilt>angled Fsmash is guaranteed on block and instant-breaks a shield.
-Samus:
Dair and Bair are now safe on block. DA is safe on block. Ftilt is safe when spaced now. Dtilt is +. Don't block bombs, ever.
Other than that it's hard to say exactly what changed, but the MU feels much harder for me now; maybe the guy just leveled up though? IDK.
That said I need to get pellet blocking down better; I am still bad at it and hurts me in this MU.
This might be where it comes down to a playstyle difference. Looking at my gameplay, I'm much more prone to throw attacks and go for trades rather than shield -> wait to punish unless I know whatever they're going to do will be easily punishable on shield. If you rarely shield in neutral, this patch will have little effect on your opponent's neutral game vs. you. Since most characters want to approach us and we can force predictable air approaches, I look for challenges with Bair + smashes or beat people to the punch with fair all the time. Maybe that's why I'm feeling this less than you.
Trampoline didn't get any worse from this patch, nor did hydrant. Directly shielding did though, along with most of our OoS options.
Hmmm true. I really hope I can adapt and get over this. I do feel like my entire playstyle has been neutered.
Nah, it's still easy to avoid / block still. MU inexperience is what's keeping us afloat until we get buffs.
*Sigh* Yeah... Sadly I don't think we will ever get buffed. Due to our high potential, especially during advantage state, it is easy to justify shooting our neutral in the foot.
*Sigh* If you give me enough blockstun on Fair to true combo on block into Nair or retreat safely, I could make this work. Or maybe a passive ability to make us suffer less blockstun that other characters to allow us to specialize in punishes. I could make that work too... Ah well, a man can dream.
In the meantime, I need to adapt. That and work on my Mario.
You're right and wrong IMO. This patch IMO made it a lot more profitable to challenge things rather than shield them, and that's what I tend to do. I feel it from a defensive standpoint when I shield strong aerials, but it hasn't devastated my game plan because challenging was my preferred response anyway.
I wouldn't relegate Pac-Man to a second. Co-main him at the least. He still has some niche MUs where being able to alter neutral so much is a godsend. I recall you saying that you though Pac-Man vs MK was in MK's favor. I don't think Mario wins the MU (ANTi even switched off for abadango at TBH5), but I do think Pac-Man is even because he can completely ignore MK's preferred options in neutral.
On a different note, I think this patch was break even or better for Mario. I think a perfectly timed nair -> jab can't be shieldgrabbed, but I need to practice it.
I can understand that. Also I changed my mind on MK. When I said that Katakiri (Who is vastly better than me and the best player in my state) had been my first true exposure to MK, and he demolished me while explaining all the things MK could do to Pacman in the MU. This gave me sort of a biased view based more on someone else's experience than my own.
I agree though that I should co-main.
I also agree that Mario got better. Pretty certain both Nair and FF Uair became + on block, and I've been successfully able to punish anyone trying to punish me for either. This in turn leads to some stupid mixups on block and allows me to just be stupidly aggressive with him.