Official Pac-Man's Amazing Full Colour Fan Club! - Pac-Man General Thread

[Galaxian]

MK comparison happened because Pacman9 said we don't lose any MUs, which is a pretty bold claim.

We've got some losing MUs for sure.

I have a friend who says ROB vs Pac-Man is in ROB's favor, which I believe is neutral. He thinks in customs ROB has a advantage, though.

If anything Fox really screws up Pac-Man. Sheik probably too, but Pac-Man's MUs aren't too awful.

 

[Nu~]

As long as trampoline exists, fox and sheik don't win.

What custom does ROB get that makes him win the matchup? They do nothing to help his disadvantage state, which we take advantage of quite well.

Edit: that brawl MK comparison was still dumb. Everyone loves to say how shirk doesn't lose to anyone, and when I say it, we become the next MK.

Many people don't believe in the character like I do. What I find funny is that people told me that I need a reality check, yet haven't explored any of Pac's matchups themselves.
@ BSP
Link and toon link are annoying, but they certainly don't win because of their bad mid range game (where we excel in)


I know I have a write up of Fox and sheik somewhere too.

 

[Pacack]

In my opinion, Pac-Man has a disadvantageous matchup against Rosalina, Pikachu, Link, Bowser, Ike, Shulk, and Sheik. Worst is Rosalina for obvious reasons, then Pikachu, then Link. Others depend very, very largely on how you're playing, while the first three have tools that fundamentally counter ours very well.

 

[BSP]

Sorry about that...
I didn't want this to happen...

I think I should stop posting in that thread.

You're just a bit over zealous about his matchups, that's all. Pac-Man's good, but he isn't that good. Most people underrate him, but he's not some top tier sleeper either.

People like to see results, and unless you're a big name that goes out, places high, and plays against other big names, your word isn't worth much (not just you, anyone who says anything about this game ever). None of us that frequent here are going to be taken that seriously. As I'm sure you're already aware, Kool Aid and Abadango are probably the only two most would listen to about Pac-Man analysis unfortunately.

Now regarding our MUs, like I said over there, I think Sheik, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, and Toon Link clearly give us trouble. I have no doubt they have the advantage in the MU. Sheik's neutral game is way too good and she breaks our zone easily. Same thing with Pikachu. Our only fighting chances against Sonic and Fox IMO is to run away and camp the ledge with trampoline 100%, and Fox might be worse because he has completely safe reflector upon reflecting something. Toon Link can make a projectile wall that is annoying for us to deal with, as well as block our stuff by just looking at us. These MUs are 40:60, clear advantage to the opponent, at best for us IMO at this point in the meta.

I think we may lose to Mario, Shulk, Bowser, Ganon (not joking), DDD, Link, maybe Greninja, and possibly others. It's still early in the game and there's still stuff to find out, but I anticipate things getting harder for us as people actually learn this character.

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Couldn't ask for anything more than Pac-Man being in Smash.

snip

Same, even though I have some complaints with the lack of PAC-MAN, such as not enough PAC-MAN remixes, nor there being an HD/remake of PAC-LAND, rather than spruced up arcade original graphics. Would've really complimented the new coat of paint PAC-MAN himself got.

MK comparison happened because Pacman9 said we don't lose any MUs, which is a pretty bold claim.

We've got some losing MUs for sure.

I still firmly believe Mario is one of our worst matchups, along with Rosalina. I just can't for the life of me seem to get that matchup working. I have a "Wretched Five" in my personal book for PAC-MAN, and they have made me heavily consider getting a secondary because of how frustrated I get with fighting these characters: Rosalina, Mario, Pikachu, Megaman, Sonic. Runners up are Ness and Falcon.

Also, I agree heavyweights give us trouble, to be honest. I've been annoyed by Ike, Ganon and Bowser before.

 

[Nu~]

You're just a bit over zealous about his matchups, that's all. Pac-Man's good, but he isn't that good. Most people underrate him, but he's not some top tier sleeper either.

People like to see results, and unless you're a big name that goes out, places high, and plays against other big names, your word isn't worth much (not just you, anyone who says anything about this game ever). None of us that frequent here are going to be taken that seriously. As I'm sure you're already aware, Kool Aid and Abadango are probably the only two most would listen to about Pac-Man analysis unfortunately.

Now regarding our MUs, like I said over there, I think Sheik, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, and Toon Link clearly give us trouble. I have no doubt they have the advantage in the MU. Sheik's neutral game is way too good and she breaks our zone easily. Same thing with Pikachu. Our only fighting chances against Sonic and Fox IMO is to run away and camp the ledge with trampoline 100%, and Fox might be worse because he has completely safe reflector upon reflecting something. Toon Link can make a projectile wall that is annoying for us to deal with, as well as block our stuff by just looking at us. These MUs are 40:60, clear advantage to the opponent, at best for us IMO at this point in the meta.

I think we may lose to Mario, Shulk, Bowser, Ganon (not joking), DDD, Link, maybe Greninja, and possibly others. It's still early in the game and there's still stuff to find out, but I anticipate things getting harder for us as people actually learn this character.

Alight then man. Thanks.
I kinda believe you on the sheik and fox, but at the same time, disagree on shulk and greninja. I have played the greninja matchup with FullMoon too many times to count, and we go back and forth.

Pac-Man wins nuetral for sure, but greninja kills us much earlier. We are also one of the only ones that can safely punish his Nair approaches.

Fox has a rough time getting over the trampoline, and his jab shenanigans can be escaped with trampoline.

@ Jenny Wakeman
If it's mega man you struggle against, you've come to the right place. That is the matchup I am most comfortable in.

Half of our fruits beat all of his projectiles, and our CQC is a lot better than his. You don't want to use any fruit besides the melon and higher against mega man because his pellets beat the other fruit. This is a matchup I would rush down in. We break his zoning plan really well.

 

[Pacack]

Now regarding our MUs, like I said over there, I think Sheik, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, and Toon Link clearly give us trouble. I have no doubt they have the advantage in the MU. Sheik's neutral game is way too good and she breaks our zone easily. Same thing with Pikachu. Our only fighting chances against Sonic and Fox IMO is to run away and camp the ledge with trampoline 100%, and Fox might be worse because he has completely safe reflector upon reflecting something. Toon Link can make a projectile wall that is annoying for us to deal with, as well as block our stuff by just looking at us. These MUs are 40:60, clear advantage to the opponent, at best for us IMO at this point in the meta.

I think we may lose to Mario, Shulk, Bowser, Ganon (not joking), DDD, Link, maybe Greninja, and possibly others. It's still early in the game and there's still stuff to find out, but I anticipate things getting harder for us as people actually learn this character.

I still firmly believe Mario is one of our worst matchups, along with Rosalina. I just can't for the life of me seem to get that matchup working. I have a "Wretched Five" in my personal book for PAC-MAN, and they have made me heavily consider getting a secondary because of how frustrated I get with fighting these characters: Rosalina, Mario, Pikachu, Megaman, Sonic. Runners up are Ness and Falcon.

Also, I agree heavyweights give us trouble, to be honest. I've been annoyed by Ike, Ganon and Bowser before.

I forgot Mario. He's a pain with his cape. Heck, so's Mewtwo with his reflector. I don't have problems with all reflectors, since some have a ton of endlag (see: Palutena's Reflect, Ness' bat, Zelda's Nayru's Love), but others are a pain.

Heavyweights (or any characters that can put out a lot of damage in one move) hurt us bad. They break our hydrant and make our gimmicks pointless, since we have to work so much harder to get damage in than they do.

I don't have as much of a problem with Sonic, Captain Falcon, or Fox (yes, even good ones) as many here. The trampoline and (in Sonic and Fox's cases) hydrant control the stage and make it so they can't rush down on us anymore, which is what we normally have trouble with. When we rule the stage, they can't touch us.

Yeah, they're a pain when we don't have those up, but just get a hydrant down from the air and place down a trampoline when they do to attack it or when they're blocked by it and have to jump.

Alight then man. Thanks.
I kinda believe you on the sheik and fox, but at the same time, disagree on shulk and greninja. I have played the greninja matchup with FullMoon too many times to count, and we go back and forth.

A Shulk that effectively uses his Buster and Smash Monados kills us for free compared to what we have to do (especially when he gets Shield off at high percentages). Combined with how much he outranges us and with how good his counter is against our hydrant (goes off even when it's not a hurtbox), I'm confused.

What makes you think it's not disadvantageous?

 

[BSP]

I firmly believe that the only losing matchup we have is Sonic.

@ BSP
Link and toon link are annoying, but they certainly don't win because of their bad mid range game (where we excel in)


I know I have a write up of Fox and sheik somewhere too.

Have you played DEHF/Larry or Megafox offline? How about Denti, Mr. R, or Zero for Sheik? That's the other big thing, who you are playing. Like I said, people won't listen to you unless you're a big name fighting other big names, which isn't necessarily a bad thing because big names lead the meta. It's a problem when we do actually know things and people don't listen.

I still firmly believe Mario is one of our worst matchups, along with Rosalina. I just can't for the life of me seem to get that matchup working. I have a "Wretched Five" in my personal book for PAC-MAN, and they have made me heavily consider getting a secondary because of how frustrated I get with fighting these characters: Rosalina, Mario, Pikachu, Megaman, Sonic. Runners up are Ness and Falcon.

Also, I agree heavyweights give us trouble, to be honest. I've been annoyed by Ike, Ganon and Bowser before.

If you do what I've said with Fair launching hydrant and healing yourself, Rosalina has to come at you to get anywhere. At that point, then you've got to deal with her massive range, disjoints, and Luma, but I don't think it's impossible. With how our Dair works against Luma, it's fairly easy to get rid of him. When he's dead, Rosalina is still compelled to approach because she doesn't want to give us Keys. What makes Rosalina difficult for you?

I've been on and off the fence with Mario. I haven't played any big names offline, but I did play against Hisoka on Anther's Ladder yesterday. Game 1 I won, game 2 was 2 stock his favor, and game 3 was last hit, last stock in his favor. What I've said in the past still holds IMO, slight Mario favor. I don't know if I'd give it 60:40, because he's not as hard as others.

You need to spam trampoline as much as possible to contain Mario's ridiculous grounded frame data. If he ever gets in your face, you're probably eating 20% plus because we can't contain him with our lack of grab. He can juggle us pretty easily, has a reflector you need to be cautious of, and Usmash is very bad for us.

When you've got a trampoline on the field, you can contest his jump ins with Bair, Fair and Uair. Mario lacks a great forward approach move, so this is pretty effective. Since his range is quite poor, up B OoS also does a number on him. If he spams fireballs as he approaches, Bair and Fair through them to hit him.

Pikachu is like Sheik, IDK what to say. He breaks our zone too easily.

Sonic beats us, but it's bearable if you ledge camp with trampoline. Falcon's game is pretty disrupted by it too. I don't like playing vs. Mega Man as Pac-Man personally.

Oddly enough, I thought Ness was someone we beat. He never gives me too much trouble. I feel like his gameplan in neutral is pretty straightforward and he's is super vulnerable offstage.

@ Pacack that's the MU inexperience I'm talking about from the other sides. Sonic and Fox can both run through grounded hydrants, so it's more of a liability if you're try to use it to control anything. IMO our only shot in those MUs is a 100% ledge camp strategy with trampoline, otherwise they destroy us in neutral.

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Have you played DEHF/Larry or Megafox offline? How about Denti, Mr. R, or Zero for Sheik? That's the other big thing, who you are playing. Like I said, people won't listen to you unless you're a big name fighting other big names, which isn't necessarily a bad thing because big names lead the meta. It's a problem when we do actually know things and people don't listen.



If you do what I've said with Fair launching hydrant and healing yourself, Rosalina has to come at you to get anywhere. At that point, then you've got to deal with her massive range, disjoints, and Luma, but I don't think it's impossible. With how our Dair works against Luma, it's fairly easy to get rid of him. When he's dead, Rosalina is still compelled to approach because she doesn't want to give us Keys. What makes Rosalina difficult for you?

I've been on and off the fence with Mario. I haven't played any big names offline, but I did play against Hisoka on Anther's Ladder yesterday. Game 1 I won, game 2 was 2 stock his favor, and game 3 was last hit, last stock in his favor. What I've said in the past still holds IMO, slight Mario favor. I don't know if I'd give it 60:40, because he's not as hard as others.

You need to spam trampoline as much as possible to contain Mario's ridiculous grounded frame data. If he ever gets in your face, you're probably eating 20% plus because we can't contain him with our lack of grab. He can juggle us pretty easily, has a reflector you need to be cautious of, and Usmash is very bad for us.

When you've got a trampoline on the field, you can contest his jump ins with Bair, Fair and Uair. Mario lacks a great forward approach move, so this is pretty effective. Since his range is quite poor, up B OoS also does a number on him. If he spams fireballs as he approaches, Bair and Fair through them to hit him.

Pikachu is like Sheik, IDK what to say. He breaks our zone too easily.

Sonic beats us, but it's bearable if you ledge camp with trampoline. Falcon's game is pretty disrupted by it too. I don't like playing vs. Mega Man as Pac-Man personally.

I agree. I fought Hisoka and he beat me, I just hate that matchup. The five I pointed out are personally ones I will avoid playing if I can. I don't find them fun, interesting, or playable.

 

[Nu~]

A Shulk that effectively uses his Buster and Smash Monados kills us for free compared to what we have to do (especially when he gets Shield off at high percentages). Combined with how much he outranges us and with how good his counter is against our hydrant (goes off even when it's not a hurtbox), I'm confused.

What makes you think it's not disadvantageous?

He outranges everyone. He also has the most lag out of anyone in the cast.
How is shulk getting in safely with either of those arts? His mobility is pretty bad because he can't weave in and out, and If he counters our hydrant, we can just roll behind the attack and punish since it comes out slow. Shulk has problems with landing, and getting zoned out.

Our Uair keeps him in the air for days, and our trampoline forces him to approach us from the air. You already know how good fruit is for keeping opponents out. If he switches to speed, fruit aren't as bad, but he still has to find a way to get over the trampoline safely.

Shulk just has problems getting to us in the first place.

@ BSP I fight high ranking shieks and Foxes on anthers ladder, and I've played the ZSS, Robin, Shiek, and meta knight matchups with Nairo.

Mega Man is just a matchup that I've personally studied for a long time (since the game came out)
@Drippy @Diamond Octobot and StylesX2 are some mega men that I've fought. I've also fought Zage using mega man back when I mained him.

 

[Pacack]

He outranges everyone. He also has the most lag out f anyone in the cast.
How is shulk getting in safely with either of this arts? His mobility is pretty bad because he can't weave in and out, and If he counters our hydrant, we can just roll behind the attack and punish since it comes out slow. Shulk has problems with landing, and getting zoned out.

Our Uair keeps him in the air for days, and our trampoline forces him to approach us from the air. You already know how good fruit is for keeping opponents out. If he switches to speed, fruit aren't as bad, but he still has to find a way to get over the trampoline safely.

Shulk just has problems getting to us in the first place.

I use Shulk as a Tertiary, so I know a thing or two about how this matchup should be done for both sides.

The name of Shulk's game is using fair and nair to approach, do damage, and cover area (since they're easily his best moves); using d-tilt, f-tilt, and up-tilt on the ground when necessary; using laggy moves only when absolutely necessary to kill or do tons of damage with Buster; and using arts, arts, arts, and more arts.

Pac-Man is not difficult to approach. All you need to do is run up and shield. If/when we respond with running up to do a trampoline (or, God forbid, a grab), then Shulk should switch to air game and carry us away. From there, he's already got a solid 40+ percent on us with Buster. His goal from there is just to play it safe and increase his gap.


We don't get damage that easily as Pac-Man. If we try to run up and approach him, then his proper response should be a nair (or, as I call it, the lolnope). If we stay back and camp, then he can just use his ungodly range to attack us anyways with fair, and he can avoid most damage anyways with shield.

 

[BSP]

Pac-Man is not difficult to approach. All you need to do is run up and shield. If/when we respond with running up to do a trampoline (or, God forbid, a grab)...

This is exactly why I think we have to camp the ledge with trampoline against extremely mobile characters. When people start realizing this, things get hard. They mix up the run up shile

You forgot to mention that we can't KO Shulk. Yes you did.

 

[Pacack]

This is exactly why I think we have to camp the ledge with trampoline against extremely mobile characters. When people start realizing this, things get hard.

You forgot to mention that we can't KO Shulk.

A Shulk that effectively uses his Buster and Smash Monados kills us for free compared to what we have to do (especially when he gets Shield off at high percentages). Combined with how much he outranges us and with how good his counter is against our hydrant (goes off even when it's not a hurtbox), I'm confused.

What makes you think it's not disadvantageous?

I think trampoline is best to use sporadically, when on top of the opponent, or when after having just charged a fruit. It'll litter the battlefield without doing the oh-so-completely-necessary 7% hit.

 

[Firedemon0]

I probably should of spoke up for Pac-man in the Matchup thread. However the conversation gets so quickly off topic its not really worth it. Outside of the Pac boards I am nonexistent. My opinion probably wouldn't hold my weight. Chances of swaying opinion there is not going to happen outside of concrete video results imo.

I still get complimented that people have not see a Pac like me before, without fail, and get props. I figure you guys get the same thing. He does not have the same exposure as other characters do. Just keep pushing him as a character is all you can do. Don't get hung up on the Tier Lists, work on your matchups, practice your tech skill and keep innovating.

 

[Nu~]

Why don't people run away when shulk is in def mode? You can literally run away until the mode goes away, and then KO him there.
I still don't think that Shulk keeps us out as well as you think, because your scenarios are way too ideal for shulk.
But whatever. I'm done with this matchup discussion. Let's move on.

Oh, and I would gladly fight your shulk one day to show you what we can do

 

[Pacack]

Why don't people run away when shulk is in def mode? You can literally run away until the mode goes away, and then KO him there.
I still don't think that Shulk keeps us out as well as you think, because your scenarios are way too ideal for shulk.
But whatever. I'm done with this matchup discussion. Let's move on.

Oh, and I would gladly fight your shulk one day to show you what we can do

That is indeed the best thing to do to a Shield mode Shulk. But it's still true that we can't get damage up easily.

I'd gladly face you as Shulk someday. But keep in mind that I spend almost all my training time on Pac-Man and Marth, so I'm not even close to the best Shulk player around. If you're looking to face a meaner Shulk, consider going to the Shulk boards. They're friendly people. Or, if you're not comfortable with that, my friend @XenoBrawler610 packs a mean Shulk and Luigi.

 

[Nu~]

Something that I haven't gotten to talk about in a while...
Where is my Pac-Man world 4!?!?

This is Pac-Man's 35th anniversary! We need a revival.

It would complete my life

 

[Pacack]

Something that I haven't gotten to talk about in a while...
Where is my Pac-Man world 4!?!?

This is Pac-Man's 35th anniversary! We need a revival.

It would complete my life

PLEASE THOUGH

COLLECTATHON GENRE IS OBVIOUSLY WANTED IF YOU LOOK AT YOOKA-LAYLEE SO PLEASE NAMCO

 

[Deleted member]

Happy 35th Anniversary, Pac-Man!

That is indeed the best thing to do to a Shield mode Shulk. But it's still true that we can't get damage up easily.

I'd gladly face you as Shulk someday. But keep in mind that I spend almost all my training time on Pac-Man and Marth, so I'm not even close to the best Shulk player around. If you're looking to face a meaner Shulk, consider going to the Shulk boards. They're friendly people. Or, if you're not comfortable with that, my friend @XenoBrawler610 packs a mean Shulk and Luigi.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind fighting some time, though my Luigi is by far more ferocious and I think my Robin is better than Shulk now.

 

[fromundaman]

This is a legit question since I haven't played too many Fox players, especially of similar skill, but how exactly does he beat us?

I mean I know he can reflect stuff, but that doesn't seem like a huge deal, especially considering his reflector is definitely punishable on whiff (especially if you're packing a key). Blaster also gets punished on hit or whiff by key, which means he has to approach, and outside of RAR Bairs, he seems punishable on everything against us.

 

[Firedemon0]

Snip

Here is my opinion on the Fox match-up from the weekly discussion thread.


A good Fox will wreck Pac-man's face hard. He is fast, not as much as Sonic, but still dangerously fast. A campy fox is not an issue for Pac-man, it is an aggressive one.

Offensively, Fox has the advantage on his attacks over Pac-man, better grab, better ground game, faster but still potent bair (seriously, auto cancel it a few times, it is ridiculous), superior dair as well. Pac-man has a better fair. They have equal nairs in my opinion. Specials wise, lasers work great to add damage when Pac-man is offstage, they also cancel side b, so a well placed shot and you can be gimped, you need to not be predictable with it. Fruit is much more versatile in this fight, properly using fruit will throw off reflector timing, just be mindful how often you use each fruit. Reflectors I have covered before, just be mindful of the max range of your fruit, and you can still spam them to zone. You must be mindful with hydrant, as it will come back up at you when reflected and follow the same trajectory when launched at Fox. He can safely gimp Trampoline recovery because of his recovery options, so you also need to avoid being predictable with them.

Pac-man cannot reasonably zone out an Offensive Fox, he can weave effectively through trampoline and hydrant spacing because of his ground+aerial speed, with his safe nair. He is able to very safely break hydrant without fear with nair > ftilt (similar to pacman) a fresh bair or down smash. He can also block an aerial hydrant with his up-air or reflector, or worse, reflector > Double Jump cancel on reflect > Uair, limiting it's combo breaker ability. Avoiding follow ups comes down more to airdodge or hydrant change ups.

Pac-man is not at a lost completely however, because of the nature of Fox's attacks, he is very susceptible to nair and fair combo breaking. He can up tilt > Up smash combo Fox at lower percents, but just about anyone can. His recovery, if predictable, is easily gimped (more on that shortly). A whiffed up-smash, while dangerous, can be punished easily with oos options, and tilts. He is easier to kill because of his weight. Pac-man can combo Fox easily because of his fall speed, but you do need to be mindful of nair, it comes out fast. Throw is super risky in this fight because running up smashes basically obliterate Pac-man. Pac-man can punish illusion pretty effectively if used too much with fruit. Fox can also catch some reflected fruit.

I wanted to go more in-depth about the kinds of recovery Fox is capable of Because fox illusion no longer causes special fall, he can use that, with his reflectors ability to stall, up b angles and wall jumps to avoid most of Pac-man's off stage options safely. He can avoid stage spikes because of Firefox's ability to recover underneath most stages. He can reflect and double jump out of reflector when you try to edge guard hydrant attempts, he can illusion through Pac-man, if he tries to offstage fair. While putting himself at risk can reflect oranges then illusion through follow ups. At the same time, if Fox insists on using Illusion to recovery on stage, he can be super easily gimped once he commits with orange, or Side B his landing on stage. You will close out stocks often in this fashion.

Overall I personally feel that Fox is our second toughest match-up. I would definitely put it at 60:40.

 

[Ffamran]

Does this constitute as an advanced technique against Captain Falcon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSxek6E98xI?

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Coincidentally on his own birthday, I made two short Pac-tech videos. One involves the dire hydrant!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOybOMm2IYY&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL7kXp0bH0Q&spfreload=10

 

[Pacack]

If anyone hasn't gotten Pac-Man Championship Edition DX+ (or its DLC), there's a 75% sale for Steam in honor of Pac's 35th.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/236450/

 

[fromundaman]

• Damn I made it into brackets at that French smash event then went 1-2. I choked ssuper hard vs a sonic player Ihad no bbusiness losing to and then to a good Lucario.

In pools I only lost to Nagalfar's Bowser Jr but that went to last stock last hit last game, so pretty happy about that.

Still, pretty sure I only made top 32 so I'm disappointed. I could have done better. Oh well, MMs and loads of friendlies tomorrow.

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

So did anyone hear about this yet?

You're running away from the 256 level glitch, it looks pretty cool.

Also, I posted this in another thread, but I thought I should show it here.

Spoiler

 

[mario123007]

In my opinion, Pac-Man has a disadvantageous matchup against Rosalina, Pikachu, Link, Bowser, Ike, Shulk, and Sheik. Worst is Rosalina for obvious reasons, then Pikachu, then Link. Others depend very, very largely on how you're playing, while the first three have tools that fundamentally counter ours very well.

I think Sheik is the hardest in my opinion.
Recently saw a CNN report about Pacman's 35th anniversary. And they used one of the footage of his Smash Bros trailer!

 

[COLINBG]

They wanted to attract female gamers, so they made a character whose whole purpose is eating balls? Goddamn Iwatani.

 

[BSP]

One mystery that still bothers me:

Our hydrant water spouts and getting pushed off of the ledge. Sometimes when I shield the water and it's pushing me off of the edge, I stay on. Other times, Pac-Man goes flying off. Flying off can be very bad at times, and jumping to avoid the water can lead to getting hit by the hydrant.

Does anyone know what controls whether or not the water will push you off of a ledge? Looking at our frame data, the spurts have weight base knockback and a non-zero knockback growth. Maybe damage is the factor? I'm going to look into this when I get home tonight because it has cost me stocks.

Edit: Pac-Man's rage affects the water's power. At 79% and above, the water will push Pac-Man off of edges even if you're shielding. Thanks to COLINBG.

 

[COLINBG]

I just did some testing, and it never happened.

I tried to do it on different stages, both at 0% and 999%, both facing the ledge and facing the hydrant, both putting up the shield before and after the water touches me, both being near the ledge and at the limit of the ledge, and both in training and in a normal match. I only tested it with damage in training mode, though, I don't know if it's an important thing to consider.

It only happenes in two situations:
1. I was shielding too late, it pushed me and I airdodged, which I don't think is your problem.
2. I was releasing the shield too soon (when the water was still touching me), and it pushed me off the stage.

Otherwise, I can't seem to recreate it. So maybe it's stage dependent (but I'm too lazy to test out everything). Or maybe it's just very rare or I was just super unlucky and didn't get it. Or maybe I forgot to put in some other aspect. But other than that, you're probably realeasing the shield too soon; that's kinda the only thing I see. Just make sure all the water is gone before doing anything. The hitbox lasts a little longer than it looks.

 

[BSP]

2. I was releasing the shield too soon (when the water was still touching me), and it pushed me off the stage.

I've held shield the entire time and still get pushed off. How is Pac-Man flying off in your testing? Does he go offstage in his normal aerial pose (hands up, smiling of course), or does he go flying off with a panicked face (facing hydrant)? The latter is what happens to me . You can't shield it and IDK what controls it.


Your training mode testing doesn't take rage into account, but I don't know if rage affects hydrant water to begin with.

 

[COLINBG]

I get hands up smiling every time. It would be nice if someone else could test it.

--------​

Edit: Wait, I got the panicked face. In normal smash mode, with around 80% damage. So it might affect it.

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Edit 2: I get it consistently, around 80% each time. Will test more.

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Edit 3: Ok, so I used Ness's pummel in normal smash mode to rack up damage on Pac (since it does 1%, less than 1% when staled, and it's fast, it's easy to get at the % you want).

1. It never happens at 78%. Shield damage taken and Pac's placement don't matter.
2. It always happens at 79%. Shield damage taken and Pac's placement don't matter.
3. If I'm facing the ledge, I get the normal falling animation, but I'm still pushed off.
4. If I'm facing the hydrant, I get the panicked animation, and I'm pushed off.
5. I'm unsure about this point, so I'd like for someone else to confirm it. The panicked animation seems to put you in helpless mode for a moment, and it takes longer to airdodge (when spamming shield), compared to the normal falling animation, which you can act out of immediately. I don't think you can punish it (because the hydrant is in the way, and because you're not helpless for long enough), but it's still never good to go deeper.
6. It continues to happen up to and past 150%, so I guess it's from 79% up.

Hope this helps.

It would still be nice if someone could confirm all this.

 

[BSP]

Snip

So rage does affect the water. Thanks for testing that out. Now I know it's a bit more dangerous to have yourself between hydrant and the ledge when you're >78% because shielding gets you pushed off.

It may be smart to see when this starts happening to opponents too. I can't imagine it mattering that much, but you never know.

Edit: I'm going to test it out too when I get back.

I wonder if the stronger water affects anything else. Does 0%-50% water gush fruits the same way as 50%-150%, and 150% onward?

 

[COLINBG]

Yeah I'll test that out too. I completely forgot to see how the other player reacts to it. Thanks for pointing it out.

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Edit: Ok, it's weird. I'm unsure how it works and it's going to be harder to test. When Pac was at like 82 or something like that, and Ness at 76, it didn't push Ness. When Pac was at 98, and Ness still at 76, it pushed Ness. So I guess the higher Pac's rage is, the sooner it pushes the opponent. I'll see if I can put Pac at 150 and push Ness before 70.

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Edit 2: With Pac at 200% (I always forget what the max rage is, so I just went with 200), it pushes Ness at 0%. Wtf. Ness also has a panicked animation when facing the hydrant, and a normal animation when facing the ledge. I'll look with other characters to see if the character's weight matters.

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Edit 3: With Pac at 98, and Bowser at 76, it doesn't push Bowser. It pushed Ness at that percent.
1. Pac always gets pushed at 79%.
2. As for the opponents, it depends on both Pac's rage, and the opponent's weight. Dammit. But the effect our rage has seems to be significant.
3. I don't think the opponent's % affects anything. Only his weight.

I don't feel like putting in that much effort to make a chart/formula/whatever that indicates when it pushes the other player, so I'll leave that to someone else.

 

[Nu~]

We should probably test when on fire hydrant flames start killing opponents and us. I'll do that

 

[COLINBG]

Alright so I'm done testing and editing the posts. The info I gathered is condensed in the Edit 3 of each post. I need confirmation for the Pac one (first post), and I can't/don't want to calculate for the opponent one (second post).

 

[BSP]

Yeah I'll test that out too. I completely forgot to see how the other player reacts to it. Thanks for pointing it out.

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Edit: Ok, it's weird. I'm unsure how it works and it's going to be harder to test. When Pac was at like 82 or something like that, and Ness at 76, it didn't push Ness. When Pac was at 98, and Ness still at 76, it pushed Ness. So I guess the higher Pac's rage is, the sooner it pushes the opponent. I'll see if I can put Pac at 150 and push Ness before 70.

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Edit 2: With Pac at 200% (I always forget what the max rage is, so I just went with 200), it pushes Ness at 0%. Wtf. Ness also has a panicked animation when facing the hydrant, and a normal animation when facing the ledge. I'll look with other characters to see if the character's weight matters.

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Edit 3: With Pac at 98, and Bowser at 76, it doesn't push Bowser. It pushed Ness at that percent.
1. Pac always gets pushed at 79%.
2. As for the opponents, it depends on both Pac's rage, and th eopponent's weight. Dammit.

I suck too much at math to be able to test and give an accurate formula, so I'll leave this for someone else if anyone feels like doing that.

I think max rage is 150%.

The "panicked animation" is probably the edge slip animation. I didn't say that because I haven't seen it in so long since shielding usually protects characters from falling off of ledges in this game.

It's pretty odd that Pac-Man gets pushed at 79%, but Ness doesn't even though he is lighter than Pac-Man (source). Maybe traction matters too? I'm curious about the fruits now.

One application of this could be a sort of option select ledge trap with hydrant at higher %. You throw out an Fsmash to launch the hydrant at the moment water is shot. If the opponent blocks, they get pushed off of the edge and edge slip animation into the launched hydrant. If they roll, your Fsmash's lingering hitbox should hit them.

 

[Nu~]

So far, I can confirm that the on fire hydrant does scale with rage as well.

Pac at max rage will have on fire flames that kill Mario starting at 67% on the ledge, while no rage kills at 99%


Edit: 165% with no rage kills Mario center stage
115% max rage

 

[COLINBG]

I think max rage is 150%.

The "panicked animation" is probably the edge slip animation. I didn't say that because I haven't seen it so long since shielding usually protects characters from falling off of ledges in this game.

It's pretty odd that Pac-Man gets pushed at 79%, but Ness doesn't even though he is lighter than Pac-Man. Maybe traction matters too? I'm curious about the fruits now.

Yeah I was unsure if it was 150 or 180.

I don't know what the ledge slip animation looks like .-.

Yeah, it's weird. I can't explain how it works, there's too many different things to consider. Ness gets pushed at 0 when you have max rage though, so that's awesome. I don't think traction matters, since I did it at the edge of the stage, but we never know. Maybe we should test it on Luigi or something. Good luck with the fruits.

Also, we should probably create a thread just for this? It would be easier to discuss and keep track of the things we find.

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXgEUmNSwkA&index=1&list=LLHIdHNB9CIPCGdOVrDZ6qGA

This can be big. I tested this on FD and Smashville with Falcon at 54%. Not only does it kill if done correctly, but it can be a 5-string combo. All 4 hits from the Galaxian and the Power Pellet can connect into each other.