Official Pac-Man's Amazing Full Colour Fan Club! - Pac-Man General Thread

[Maziyah]

Pac is a individualistic character guys, its okay to disagree, killing and struggling on shield is a huge problem but we just gotta perservere!

 

[MachoCheeze]

Pac is a individualistic character guys, its okay to disagree, killing and struggling on shield is a huge problem but we just gotta perservere!

This is what I was trying to get across. Maybe I wasn't tactful in my wording?

 

[Nu~]

We might have a fundamental disconnection here. Do some of you not think, compared to most characters, Pac-Man has a harder time dealing with shield well?

I know that trampoline is reliable, but I also know that trampoline resets the situation to neutral and won't KO until ~200%. I know we have workarounds, but having to put in so much effort to beat such a universally strong option => we have a harder time dealing with shield than others.

The above problem bleeds into KO problems because we have less chances for edgeguards. Very few characters have reliable KO throws , throws that set up into KO moves, or lead into 50/50s, but I feel that our lack of any of those (minus Bthrow at the ledge) makes our KO'ing more suspect than most. Yes, we have workarounds, but I think we should accept the fact that we have it a tad harder.

Yeah, this is true. I'm probably being a little unrealistic here.

It is a problem, but I'm just trying to get the point across that the problem isn't "crippling". But definitely big

 

[Maziyah]

Everyone just take a step back lol everyone sounded bashful and so on but I know you all meant well. At least it shows were all so passionate anout pac-man

 

[Zage]

Well you got 17th at SmashCon which was definitely a national so yeah I literally can argue that. Also what are we qualifying as a national tournament? Because a lot of those players you listed have not placed top 32 at anything close to Apex at SmashCon, if you're talking a tier beneath that like large regional tournaments then both Sinji and Maziyah got top 32 at nebulous prime #1 an Kool-aid got top 32 at some tournament that escapes my mind right now

Admittedly I haven't been following the NJ/NY scene, I also totally forgot Kool-aid. I heard hes playing Pit now :\ ? I also wouldn't count me since it was the only national out of 3 I got top 32 in.

 

[Nu~]

Admittedly I haven't been following the NJ/NY scene, I also totally forgot Kool-aid. I heard hes playing Pit now :\ ? I also wouldn't count me since it was the only national out of 3 I got top 32 in.

He actually plays Mario now. Thinks it's an awful matchup for us too.

I remember when he first started saying things like "my new main >>>>>> Pacman" on Twitter.

Everyone just take a step back lol everyone sounded bashful and so on but I know you all meant well. At least it shows were all so passionate anout pac-man

That's a very positive way of explaining my irrationality lol.

 

[Maziyah]

Lol trust me i know we have our flaws and I in no way ignore it but if I want to take nationals and show how great pac is i gotta look pass it

 

[fromundaman]

But that isn't true neither lol.
http://smashboards.com/threads/notable-players-list-aug-15-fox-sonic.396344/

Mario has Xzax, BoTastic, and Zenyou.
Diddy has MVD, Angel and Zero.
Cap has Acid, Tearbear, Nairo and Souther.
ZSS has Nairo, NickRiddle, VaBengal and Choco.
Sonic has 6WX, Seagull Joe, Manny and Espy.
Rosalina has Dabuz, Xaltis, falln ,Rayquaza

All these players have placed top 32 at nationals and are power ranked.

As for Pac-man. We literally just have Abadango. I would say Dee, but to my knowledge he hasn't attended any. Which is a shame because hes easily the best Pac-man.

They aren't, but that isn't to say that they can't in the future. Only Abadango has placed top 32 with Pac-man at nationals/majors. You literally cannot argue this.

MFW I came in to read this:

I've attended 2 nationals so far and placed top 32 in both. I've attended 2 regionals and placed top 32 in one of the two (Hopefully with the next two I have coming up I can fix that. Sadly can't make Big House though ).

On top of that, Zage even if it's 1/3, you have placed with Pacman. Koolaid has placed with Pacman. Sinji has placed. I saw mention of Maziyah placing. Almost certain Pepespain has placed.

Now I thought you were talking stellar placements, like Abadango, Zero, Ally, Nairo, etc. with their character. When it comes to "decent" placings, we still have about the same as other characters when we enter; there's just a lot less of us than there are of other characters.

I don't why you keep insisting that this is a fact. It still stems from your opinion because it starts from what you believe is an "easy KO option". From what @ fromundaman and I have said, clearly there is a distinction between our opinions of good kill power.

I realize this discussion is pretty much over, but wait up... I said we have a lot of killing options, but that we had no CONSISTENT options. This kind of goes hand in hand with Zage's statement that we have no easy killing options.

That said, I do believe that while it takes more work to kill, we have enough ways to do it that I don't really see killing as a big issue.

I generally kill between 80-140% in all of my matches, which are respectable percents, and usually live far longer against almost all opponents. This to me isn't really a big deal.
Now Bowser Jr. has a killing problem... (Which stems entirely from his moveset being completely broken/dysfunctional, but that's a rant for another time/place.)



___________

Man I feel as if you want to play with pac you gotta understand yes some of his things are subpar, BUT there are ways to work around it, its like saying we lose to certain things while being flowchart. Maybe its not Pac-man losing these match ups perhaps its the way you play him, playing aggro i stuggle against certain things and i know you more defensive pacs struggle against other things.

This. A million times this.

I can play aggro and defensive based on the situation, but I have SO much trouble playing evasive, which is probably why MUs like Ness and Luigi have been giving me such a hard time despite the fact I can tell that they aren't bad MUs.

Similarly I hear a lot of disagreements over our MUs which I am certain come from the fact that this character can be played in a million different ways and the approach you take will affect the MU, and a lot of us tend to play differently.

 

[Nu~]

I was trying to get that across, (that consistent kill power and having a multitude of different ways to kill) can both be attributed to having no problems killing, but I wasn't specific.

Another thing I have to work on...

 

[NimbusSpark]

I know that trampoline is reliable, but I also know that trampoline resets the situation to neutral and won't KO until ~200%. I know we have workarounds, but having to put in so much effort to beat such a universally strong option => we have a harder time dealing with shield than others.

Aren't you forgetting something? Essentially, you just said that Trampoline resets the situation Pac-Man is in back into neutral.

Now, if you forgot, Pac-Man has what can be considered one of the best neutrals in the game, as a result of his amazing stage control. Henceforth, when Pac is in the neutral, he's actually within his state of advantage, especially against characters with poor movement options like Luigi and Ganondorf.
Also, remember, Trampoline doesn't just beat out shields. It's pretty much one of the only moves that can actually beat out characters rolling towards you since the trampoline removes the I-Frames then hits the enemy in an extremely rapid manner, which in reality rolling is still one of the strongest options in the game despite its recent nerf.

Pac-Man may have a weakness towards shields due to his poor grab (still waiting for the hitboxes to be fixed, come on Sakurai...), but he somewhat makes that up for easily reading rolls. Trampoline being able to cancel out shields. D-Smash not only having a massive area, but it lasting for a decent amount of frames (10, to be exact) too. In fact, a decent amount of Pac-Man's Bonus Fruit handles itself well against rolls too.
Remember, Pac-Man is what could be considered the anti-meta character in Smash 4.
Just because his anti-shield game isn't too good doesn't mean he still has other ways to counter common things within the Smash 4 Metagame.

 

[BSP]

Going back to neutral doesn't end the stock, nor put you in advantage. It does give the opponent yet another chance to KO you with rage boosted moves though.

I wouldn't go so far as to call neutral Pac-Man's advantage. It heavily depends on the character.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, trampoline is near unrivaled when it comes to defense. It's just that ending the stock is super important, and it can't do that well :\

 

[Froggy]

MFW I came in to read this:

I've attended 2 nationals so far and placed top 32 in both. I've attended 2 regionals and placed top 32 in one of the two (Hopefully with the next two I have coming up I can fix that. Sadly can't make Big House though ).

On top of that, Zage even if it's 1/3, you have placed with Pacman. Koolaid has placed with Pacman. Sinji has placed. I saw mention of Maziyah placing. Almost certain Pepespain has placed.

Now I thought you were talking stellar placements, like Abadango, Zero, Ally, Nairo, etc. with their character. When it comes to "decent" placings, we still have about the same as other characters when we enter; there's just a lot less of us than there are of other characters.

]

I was one victory away from placing top 32 at Sktar

 

[Funkermonster]

Yo guys, haven't been here much lately. Thought of changing my main next season in my region and play Pac-Man for a change, getting a lil' bored of Mega Man and Pac is just so fun. I know, he takes a ton of commitment, time and dedication to get good with, I know he's got one of the highest learning curves, and I know I'm gonna struggle a lot at first. But since I love this character so much, I think..... I think....

Don't be surprised if y'all start seein' me a bit more often here. Could use all the help I could get

 

[Froggy]

I'm a try to get out to Boston at least once per month to get some tournaments in

 

[BSP]

I've been sleeping hard on the hydrant vs. low damage characters like MK and Sheik. It's basically a portable wall against those two, and you're in a pretty strong position standing on top of it and shielding.

Edit: for example, I just finished fighting this MK on FG. Whenever I felt scared in neutral, I'd throw the hydrant down and shield. The only way he could launch it quickly was with Fsmash, which I reacted to and punished if he/she did so. I could hit any of the aerials OoS, and if he/she did nothing, SH airdodge away covered by hydrant water was pretty legit (and then i set trampoline!). Talk about value.

 

[fromundaman]

I've been sleeping hard on the hydrant vs. low damage characters like MK and Sheik. It's basically a portable wall against those two, and you're in a pretty strong position standing on top of it and shielding.

Edit: for example, I just finished fighting this MK on FG. Whenever I felt scared in neutral, I'd throw the hydrant down and shield. The only way he could launch it quickly was with Fsmash, which I reacted to and punished if he/she did so. I could hit any of the aerials OoS, and if he/she did nothing, SH airdodge away covered by hydrant water was pretty legit (and then i set trampoline!). Talk about value.

I need to work on this myself.

That said, I believe MK can also launch it with DownB. That is pretty telegraphed, but still good to know.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

You can beat a shield with an apple in your hand, it is an amazing killing option that kills mario around 120%.

Uthrow -> upB -> GG

We need to understand how to use our tools, that's all. I think that character has a lot of potential, and it begins on zdrop combos, our character is easly the most hard to play.

 

[Froggy]

I've been sleeping hard on the hydrant vs. low damage characters like MK and Sheik. It's basically a portable wall against those two, and you're in a pretty strong position standing on top of it and shielding.

Edit: for example, I just finished fighting this MK on FG. Whenever I felt scared in neutral, I'd throw the hydrant down and shield. The only way he could launch it quickly was with Fsmash, which I reacted to and punished if he/she did so. I could hit any of the aerials OoS, and if he/she did nothing, SH airdodge away covered by hydrant water was pretty legit (and then i set trampoline!). Talk about value.

Well the problem with standing on top of it is that the water will push you into the air making you totally vulnerable. Isn't it more trouble than its worth?

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Standing on top of hydrant is really awful, I try to avoid it.

You can be jab locked if you are hit Standing on top of hydrant.
If you are on shield and the hydrant disappears you will hard landing against the ground.

 

[BSP]

Well the problem with standing on top of it is that the water will push you into the air making you totally vulnerable. Isn't it more trouble than its worth?

I would imagine that you could airdodge from the water and be ok. If not, SHAD before the water spurt comes out.

Standing on top of hydrant is really awful, I try to avoid it.

You can be jab locked if you are hit Standing on top of hydrant.
If you are on shield and the hydrant disappears you will hard landing against the ground.

In general, it's pretty bad. It's a pretty legit tactic specifically vs low damage characters. I'm talking grounded hydrant -> shield nearly every time. The low damage characters like Sheik and MK can't launch it quickly without resorting to their much slower attacks, nor can they grab you since you're standing on top of the hydrant.

I'd have to test MK more, but Sheik has to Fsmash the hydrant to launch it immediately. Usmash, Dsmash, and even bouncing fish don't do enough to launch it. Vanish might, but since you are specifically watching for 2 animations, you should be able to SHAD and punish a Vanish. I don't think any of her aerials do enough damage to launch it either, meaning you are 100% safe if she goes airborne.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTP6-EFNixg

In game 2 particularly, Abadango didn't get punished for grounded hydrant -> Shield a single time (apparently safe on block if they go for an aerial), and retaliated with OoS aerials for free damage. TBH I don't know why he didn't see that he was getting away with it and use it more.

I need to work on this myself.

That said, I believe MK can also launch it with DownB. That is pretty telegraphed, but still good to know.

Forgot about that. So that means if you're on top and shielding, you look for 2 specific animations and react if you see them. Otherwise you're safe. I think we could jump away from Mach tornado before it scoops us up, but if we start making MK resort to Mach tornado in neutral, we're doing something right.

Characters I can see this being somewhat effective against:
Sheik - no tilts instant launch, charged Usmash will probably launch, but big commitment. Bouncing fish doesn't launch, Vanish doesn't launch, and none of her aerials instant launch.
MK - most of his moves do very low %, and none of his aerials will instant launch. Fsmash and dimensional cape are the two moves you have to look out for.
ZSS - if up B OoS can't hit us, we're golden. I need to see if her utilt will instant launch. None of her aerials will.

 

[Froggy]

I would imagine that you could airdodge from the water and be ok. If not, SHAD before the water spurt comes out.



In general, it's pretty bad. It's a pretty legit tactic specifically vs low damage characters. I'm talking grounded hydrant -> shield nearly every time. The low damage characters like Sheik and MK can't launch it quickly without resorting to their much slower attacks, nor can they grab you since you're standing on top of the hydrant.

I'd have to test MK more, but Sheik has to Fsmash the hydrant to launch it immediately. Usmash, Dsmash, and even bouncing fish don't do enough to launch it. Vanish might, but since you are specifically watching for 2 animations, you should be able to SHAD and punish a Vanish. I don't think any of her aerials do enough damage to launch it either, meaning you are 100% safe if she goes airborne.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTP6-EFNixg

In game 2 particularly, Abadango didn't get punished for grounded hydrant -> Shield a single time (apparently safe on block if they go for an aerial), and retaliated with OoS aerials for free damage. TBH I don't know why he didn't see that he was getting away with it and use it more.



Forgot about that. So that means if you're on top and shielding, you look for 2 specific animations and react if you see them. Otherwise you're safe. I think we could jump away from Mach tornado before it scoops us up, but if we start making MK resort to Mach tornado in neutral, we're doing something right.

Hmmm well if the idea here is that we have the lead and we want to avoid over extending ourselves without running away on platforms then we do this to shield ourselves in the neutral? That may be a legit tactic.

 

[Zage]

On the ground, grounded down-b seems like it's our safest move on shield? I've rarely been punished for it unless the hydrant was power shielded, but I've definitely been punished before I can shield if I use F-air>aerial Hydrant block string

I would imagine that you could airdodge from the water and be ok. If not, SHAD before the water spurt comes out.

You can also immediately fast fall in the first few frames the water pops you into the air shield. I haven't seen it explored much but It might be a safer option than SHAD since you're not forced to go through the landing lag if you mistime the airdodge.

 

[Nu~]

I could have sworn that Dtilt is our safest ground move on shield. Disjointed poke with really good IASA frames.

Retreating SH Fair -> FC is our safest aerial. Essentially a safe poke on shield if you space right.

 

[BSP]

A fact I completely glossed over: Rosalina holding your fruit on the ground = Luma that can only be shot or shoot starbits at you => the duo can't KO you on the ground.

Cherry/Strawberry/Orange spam with the lead may have some serious merit in that MU.

 

[Nu~]

https://vine.co/v/eFwvq6AUWYj

Maybe we could use this against characters that try to attack us on top of the hydrant?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

https://vine.co/v/eFwvq6AUWYj

Maybe we could use this against characters that try to attack us on top of the hydrant?

Pretty cool combo

 

[Froggy]

https://vine.co/v/eFwvq6AUWYj

Maybe we could use this against characters that try to attack us on top of the hydrant?

These tricks I see Pacman players creating just blow my mind.

That setup must be pretty safe since if I'm not mistaken if the grab whiffs the water should cancel the grab animation and spring you to safety.

 

[Nu~]

These tricks I see Pacman players creating just blow my mind.

That setup must be pretty safe since if I'm not mistaken if the grab whiffs the water should cancel the grab animation and spring you to safety.

There's another one we can do as well

http://youtu.be/6oh2aSTSwak

I made this one a while ago. Very safe, but difficult to get the opponent in proper positioning.

 

[Froggy]

There's another one we can do as well

http://youtu.be/6oh2aSTSwak

I made this one a while ago. Very safe, but difficult to get the opponent in proper positioning.

How about up-throw bell - up-throw - up-smash. No hydrant needed.

 

[Nu~]

How about up-throw bell - up-throw - up-smash. No hydrant needed.

Kinda risky. If the opponent reacts to the upwards tossed bell, they will punish your grab attempt hard.

DITCIT bell -> Dtilt (sends them backwards into the bell) -> usmash is a bit safer

 

[BSP]

These tricks I see Pacman players creating just blow my mind.

That setup must be pretty safe since if I'm not mistaken if the grab whiffs the water should cancel the grab animation and spring you to safety.

Yeah, I'm starting to see what @ fromundaman was saying. Most of our KO setups are setup heavy and require mindgames, but there's just so many. No one can expect all of them, least of all non-Pac-Man mains. Heck, I tend to forget basic options when I'm playing.

Edit: Galaxian in hand from the ledge has been getting me consistent 0-55% if I land that first hit. Whoever figured that out is a freaking genius.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Tomorrow there will be a fight between PEPESPAIN and Beatfox, I think that Ay Sombrero Gaming Way will stream it, I'm not sure how they want to do it, the video of the fight will be on his youtube channel 100% sure...

 

[NimbusSpark]

Pac-Man is the best Koopa Kart. No doubt about it.

 

[Mario123311]

*Sigh*... I really hate people who still talk about this: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69401014

Pretty much what ultimately turned me off from Klonoa in general, Again: He's obscure. You can't really deny that.

Pac-Man is the best Koopa Kart. No doubt about it.

And he shoots water? ....10/10.

 

[BSP]

@ Zage before I forget:

I saw your match vs mr eric on stream. IMO, you need to play more of a mid range game vs ROB. I think you need to go to ROB and put your hydrant down so that the water will push him off of the ledge if he doesn't do anything. Leave it and watch to see what ROB does about it. ROB's lasers will never instant launch, but it does pierce. If you're watching ROB, you can PS this on reaction pretty easily. I need to test gyro. Charge galaxian if he waits and get it in your hand.

Keep in mind ROB's projectile angles aren't as diverse as yours. I think you could've gotten some mileage with SH/FH strawberry and Apples aimed straight at ROB's head. Speaking of apples, your apples offstage are pretty predictable. You'd probably be better off getting a galaxian, throwing it at a ledge, and then having the threat of galaxian in hand when they're pressuring you at the ledge.

When you land a hit on ROB, I think you need to try to stay in. ROB doesn't have fast GTFO moves, so get in there and beat him up.

I'm looking at ROB's frame data: Fair is F6, but it won't help him when you're under or behind him. Similar case with Uair. That means his fastest GTFO moves is F18, whichi is Shulk level. I think you need to press your hits harder and stay on him.

Also, Robo Beam has F25 startup, and ROB's animation for it is very distinct. I KNOW you can PS that thing on reaction. Gyro has F9 startup, but takes more time to travel to you. If you're worried about ROB stealing your fruit, he can't full screen camp you in the slightest.

Also, when ROB is jumping around, consider challenging with Bair. Our Bair trading with ROB's Fair is heavily in our favor.

Getting up from the ledge, mix in ledge jump -> mash out Nair. Abadango and Dee both do this and it works out fairly well.

Now plz don't make my theory vs. Luigi look like crap. Abuse trampoline plz.

Vs. Boss

Ok, not bad. I'd be a lot more trampoline heavy myself vs Luigi, but your style is working. Ain't broke, don't fix it. Vs Wario looked solid, good stuff.

GFs: vs ROB

I still say you need to stay closer to him. Use strawberry and Apple.

It'd be a bold move, but you could consider Usmash to challenge ROB's landings.

Ban halberd next time lol. Also, I'm sure you realized that rob's laser was really disrupting your setups. That's half the reason I suggest focusing on pelting him with Apple/Strawberry/Galaxian.

 

[Zage]

@ Zage stuff

Yeah the ROB MU continues to elude me. His Nair is just so good against us, especially AC'd Nair into Dtilts, it's just so fast and I really don't know what to react with. JC'd Up-b OOS might work, I'll give it a try next time I get a chance to play a ROB of MisterEric's caliber. I did get some of milage out of playing rushdown when I could, but his keep away game is no joke and the threat of being grabbed is makes me hesitate to do so. v.v

 

[fromundaman]

Cool you played Mr. Eric in tournament? I'm going to need to watch those sets to see how we differ.

That said he's no stranger to Pacman as he was in my scene up until the last month or so.

 

[Nu~]

I've fought him before as well. I wanted to prove that ROB doesn't wreck us like he said in the ROB thread.

I found that a more aggressive mid range game works against him like BSP said. Our projectiles are a lot more diverse than his and we have faster options in general to put him in disadvantage. Nair loses to any bonus fruit and sucks once we get in his face. There is a reason why most ROBs in the ROB thread think we beat him.

I was able to 2 stock him this way, but sadly, my recording got deleted in a previous patch. I can fight him again if @ Zage needs an example?

 

[Froggy]

Yeah the ROB MU continues to elude me. His Nair is just so good against us, especially AC'd Nair into Dtilts, it's just so fast and I really don't know what to react with. JC'd Up-b OOS might work, I'll give it a try next time I get a chance to play a ROB of MisterEric's caliber. I did get some of milage out of playing rushdown when I could, but his keep away game is no joke and the threat of being grabbed is makes me hesitate to do so. v.v

That matchup is tough and I thought it was one of Pacman's worse for a while but it's really not. You can out camp him by simply spamming key. It beats his laser beam and once you figure out the player's rhythm it's easy enough to punish. Donn't forget to catch whiffed disks and punish hard whenever he does his side b(a simple grab or fair isn't good enough)

The matchup is a lot harder for me when they begin to approach. I've learned that jumping away while fruit and dropping hydrants is not an effective in the matchup. (You're kinda conditioned to jump during the projectile game so be cognizant of this). Rather what's better is just to place a trampoline in front of you since Rob vertically is so slow. At this point all you have to worry about it nair. In which case you can jab to punish his follow up If he starts rolling after his nair then trampoline after jobs nair. He'l get punished unless he spaces well in which case it just gives you more time to recharge you fruit and intercept him on his way over the trampoline again.

 

[BSP]

Stemming off from what Froggy said about ROB not being able to out-camp us:

-Gyro will never instant launch hydrant (10% max), and it won't hit you for standing on the hydrant when launched from ROB's down B unless he's basically at point blank. I forgot to test thrown from hand. Regardless, it should set you up for a quick fair, Bair, Nair or ftilt launch.

-No level of Robo beam will launch the hydrant, and ROB has to angle level 2 to hit you while you're on top of the hydrant. It sets you up for a quick Nair/Bair/Uair launch though. Robo beam has F25 startup, so you should be able to block this on reaction.

-Since neither gyro nor robo beam instant launch, your hydrant shouldn't ever be instant smacked from under you by a projectile. You should be able to block either one.

-No level of Robo beam stops orange, so it shouldn't stop Key either. If it comes down to a projectile slugfest, you should come out on top between Key/apple/strawberry + hydrant vs his gyro and beam, considering the beam's massive startup. Key on reaction to ROB preparing for the beam is in your favor. This requires you to watch ROB closely. Keep in mind that Robo beam is dead for about 4 seconds after he fires it each time.

-Hydrant water pushes gyro, so it'll get pushed far unless ROB picks it up.

-If ROB has a gyro in hand, he has no way to instant launch hydrant minus z drop shenanigans. If ROB steals your fruit, same thing unless he takes your key. He should only realistically have a chance of grabbing your strawberry or apple safely though. If he is holding either, hydrant -> shield is a very safe tactic. Don't make it obvious, but keep it in mind.