Official Pac-Man's Amazing Full Colour Fan Club! - Pac-Man General Thread

[Nu~]

I was at Nebulous yesterday and I must say that @Sinji is absolutely the real deal. He could probably give BSP a good run for his money for best Pacman in America. I was 1 game away from meeting him in bracket on stream too. Too bad.

I would have to agree with that. His Pac is stunning.

He should have beaten Angel though. He definitely would have won if he just played a little more patiently.

 

[Froggy]

I would have to agree with that. His Pac is stunning.

He should have beaten Angel though. He definitely would have won if he just played a little more patiently.

I watched that match in person. The one advice I would give him is that at higher percents just keep the key in your pocket to punish any laggy moves or banana summon. Also use the trampoline as well as the hydrant to force Diddy's options when he has a bananna in hand.

That being said he did dismantle the Diddy who knocked me outta the tournament so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

[revengeska]

I have to say, between Abadango winning Umebura and Zage nearly beating ZeRo with Pac-man, it's re-energized my focus in the character. The matches of Dee's were a treat to watch. I also had a 2 hour lesson with Nakat recently, so that helps. I go for the melon and galaga a lot more, which I think has helped me be more defensive(a main point Nakat made was that my defense was weak; I take way too much damage). I'm also starting to pull off many of the combos I see others do, so I'm looking forward to upcoming tournaments.

 

[BSP]

That reminds me, Dee's optimal Galaxian combo was (preferably from a ledge drop, immediately double jump and throw it ):

Galaxian hit 1 -> Nair -> Jab 1 -> Galaxian hit 2 -> Nair (~41% at this point) -> FF, Short hop Fair -> Nair -> Fair chain for as long as possible.

An easier one to do from the ground is Galaxian hit 1 -> Nair -> Galaxian hit 2 -> Usmash for a quick 42%.

Dee and Abadango are both really good with Bells. They even do really scrubby things like roll repeatedly just to psyche opponents out when they've got a bell ready. We have to get proficient with them at higher %, because we don't have any KO'ing trouble if we can land them. We just have to get better with our mindgames. Some I've seen are:

-Repeated phantom fruit Bell to psyche opponent out -> actually throw the bell
-Tomahawk (empty hop up and over a shielding opponent -> B reversed Bell
-If the opponent is next to your hydrant and a water spurt is coming, throw the bell to where it will push them
-Throw the bell on the ledge, then read the getup. The only options that won't get the opponent stunned are ledge roll and do nothing.
-Bair Hydrant to prime it, then launch it with a bell toss. Followup with the bell in hand. A launched hydrant+ Pac-Man following is a lot of pressure, and I'm seeing their opponents fall for it quite a bit.
Fair -> Bell toss -> Usmash of course

Another thing I forgot to mention about stolen fruit: as long as your opponent holds it, you will auto phantom fruit (obviously). This means you have easy cancels from running into forward Fsmash, Ftilt, Dtilt, and Dsmash.

@ Froggy based on what has been done at offline events, Zage and Sinji are ahead of me until I get something on the board at a tournament with lots of high caliber players. That being said, I do think I could take a good amount of people out.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

This talk wants me to become Europe's best Pac.

I'm gonna be the best.

Like no Euro-Pac ever was.

 

[Nu~]

Meanwhile, I need to go to more tournaments period. One day I'll get off my lazy ass and go to Xanadu. Soon.

As for now, I'll just be the master theorycrafter/motivational speaker of the Pac-Man boards lol.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

And I'll continue to let the Freaky Fruit meta keep up with the vanilla one.

 

[Galaxian]

Well that just happened.

I was facing a Robin on Smashladder, and we do a friendly on Lylat. This was...an interesting stock, to say the least. I understand what happened, it swerved the ramp and went super turbo speed, but it just looked odd.

Still though **** lylat god damn

 

[NimbusSpark]

Well that just happened.

I was facing a Robin on Smashladder, and we do a friendly on Lylat. This was...an interesting stock, to say the least. I understand what happened, it swerved the ramp and went super turbo speed, but it just looked odd.

Still though **** lylat god damn

The one time Lylat is actually good for us? Wow... it's a miracle.

 

[Ramserss]

I'm not sure yet guys, but I'm thinking of dropping pac-man due to limitations. I usually play on 3ds dude to me not having a wiiU and I can't play pac on 3ds. It feels more clunky then it should and I don't do as good with him on 3ds ad I do on wiiU. If anyone can help me I would appreciate it, because I don't want to drop pac but if I don't feel comfortable playing him on my main system it would make sense to right?

 

[BSP]

I didn't run into any of you on for glory a little while ago, did I? I ran into a pretty good Pac-Man, but unfortunately for him/her, I know to ignore the hydrant and beat Pac-Man up instead lol.

 

[Maziyah]

Got a tourney today I know ima have to play a mario im guessing lol, ill try to make you guys proud

 

[Nu~]

Got a tourney today I know ima have to play a mario im guessing lol, ill try to make you guys proud

I believe in ya dude, good luck.
Make sure to pull off those bellhop combos!!

Edit: So I fought Camalange online (I know, I know) yesterday and got some good footage that I want to upload. We fought twice, but I only remembered to record once ^^;
I did win both matches though.

I also have a match with my dark pit/sonic main training partner that I'm going to upload later today.


After the battles, my training partner was able to send me what Camalange said about my Pac-Man on the Sonic Skype chat:

[5:58:55 PM] Camalange: Ggs, he has a great Pac-Man...its just that i played one in tourney recently a lot like his so i know how to deal with it
[5:59:03 PM] Camalange: but online i just get so frustrated because obviously
I know sonic online isnt fun to fight against but it’s so much more different when i have to hurl my face at him and he just throws at janky hitboxes and i can’t shield or airdodge or tech lmfao (Camalange)

 

[Froggy]

I believe in ya dude, good luck.
Make sure to pull off those bellhop combos!!

Edit: So I fought Camalange online (I know, I know) yesterday and got some good footage that I want to upload. We fought twice, but I only remembered to record once ^^;
I did win both matches though.

I also have a match with my dark pit/sonic main training partner that I'm going to upload later today.


After the battles, my training partner was able to send me what Camalange said about my Pac-Man on the Sonic Skype chat:

[5:58:55 PM] Camalange: Ggs, he has a great Pac-Man...its just that i played one in tourney recently a lot like his so i know how to deal with it
[5:59:03 PM] Camalange: but online i just get so frustrated because obviously
I know sonic online isnt fun to fight against but it’s so much more different when i have to hurl my face at him and he just throws at janky hitboxes and i can’t shield or airdodge or tech lmfao (Camalange)

You did what I couldn't do. I'd love to see the replays of that.

Although to be fair I do play a lot better when I'm at home online.

 

[Maziyah]

Got 3rd out of 65 at black fish I'll upload the videos once theyre uploaded, i can link the stream as well, I played a custom MM twice and beat him, a pikachu, mii brawler( I switched to villager) , mario which i need help with who i played twice we went to game 5 twice and i switched to villager and wario.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Finally came around to have a Pac-ish themed avatar (and sig)!

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Somthing I'd like to ask people who know more than the average people about PAC-MAN. Would you say (while objectively not nearly as good) that PAC-MAN's fair can be use in a manner similar to Sheiks? I've been thinking of using it to combat swordfighters in the air compared to Bair.

I'm just wondering if this sounds logical or completely dumb.

 

[Nu~]

Somthing I'd like to ask people who know more than the average people about PAC-MAN. Would you say (while objectively not nearly as good) that PAC-MAN's fair can be use in a manner similar to Sheiks? I've been thinking of using it to combat swordfighters in the air compared to Bair.

I'm just wondering if this sounds logical or completely dumb.

Funny you say that considering we've been thinking the same thing, only for combatting shields.

I think it should be mentioned that Fruit Cancel can also work like G&W's b-air cancel. For example, after doing a f-air at the apex of a short hop (not immediately), Pac-Man has a few options to avoid the landing lag he would normally experience:

1) Double jump - While this is a decent option and allows for more aerial followups, Pac-Man is still vulnerable to better aerials than his own or anti-airs.
2) Second aerial - A more offensive option, if you throw out another f-air, you'll have the same amount of landing lag as if you only did one anyway. Same risk, greater reward.
3) FC landing - this is the best option in this situation and any other situation like it. Because Pac-Man can act very quickly after a f-air, he can avoid the rest of the move penalizing him with landing lag by Fruit Cancelling. This landing is literally lagless, and can open up a variety of approach options and poke mixups.

FC landings also work well when executing a retreating f-air (for whatever reason, moving backwards while inputting a f-air sometimes still grants landing lag). FC is a much stronger technique than us Pac-Mains have been giving it credit for, and I personally think that this can be what makes Pac-Man excel as a character. I'll try to get more examples of when FC landings would be useful, but just with SH f-air, FC is already a strong option if it removes all punishable frames during landing. this does open up a LOT more options as now we can more reliably weave in and out of a character's attack range (depending on the matchup). And although the FC does have its own amount of punishable frames, you are absolutely correct in that if we don't overuse this technique, this can be a very strong option against players who like to sit in shield. Nobody wants to block every single move we can throw out at them because then we can pop shield with Melon + Hydrant more easily or set up reliable grabs with Fruit coverage.
The point of the SHFC is to give us Pac-Mains more reliable options to pressure opponents in shield since we have such limited amounts of those options (granted, the ones we have now are extremely good in their own way). The FC landing is not as punishable as I'm interpreting from what you're saying, but like most "safe options" for any character, there are ways to get around it with prior knowledge to it. "Safe" in this case merely means that there are very little ways to get around this approach on reaction, and as a mid-range to long-range zoner, Pac-Man couldn't have a better close-range neutral with a safer f-air... in my opinion, lol.
Following up on my previous comment, the absolute BEST situations for FC landings almost always seem to be when transitioning to platforms on Battlefield, Smashville, Town and City, etc. Since Pac's full hop height is pretty standard, a full hop f-air into FC landing is lagless when landing on the platform. This could make Pac-Man's platform game better in that we now have more options to harass or retreat more reliably. We also cannot forget platform cancelling a f-air on such stages, as it's situational but very low-risk.

So, in all, Pac-Man's use of FC can lead to some seriously fast pressure (and keep in mind that if an opponent is hoarding your Fruit, FC becomes much easier (all you have to do is tap B)). Now we can open up SH f-air FC into jab, f-tilt (spaced), another SH f-air...
The options are limitless, but as Fromundaman stated, overusing this is not the way to go. Pac-Man is all about the mixups and zany cheese, and we have to keep it that way.

Makemesmellbad is a god.

I would challenge sword fighters with it, but only if we get really close to them. Our frame data is better, but we have to space within our area of dominance.

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Could you explain what exactly the fruit cancel is? Is it the tech where you lightly press shield to make pac-man just stop charging, no shield?

 

[Nu~]

Could you explain what exactly the fruit cancel is? Is it the tech where you lightly press shield to make pac-man just stop charging, no shield?

Yes, but in the air. Hold B and then press shield.

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Yeah, i get it. using the cancel to make us able to pretty much run, or jump or grab, or really, anything. clever.

 

[BSP]

If I'm not mistaken, this fruit cancel is what we've been referring to as phantom fruit, right?

 

[NimbusSpark]

Hello once again, fellow Pac-Mains.

Very recently, I've been thinking about the uses of Pac's Hydrant when Jab-Launched, specifically near, or at the edge.
When near the edge, it provides a beautiful ledge guard tool, limiting options more easily than a trampoline at the ledge, although requiring more set-up.
At the ledge, it actually provides a frightening edgeguard tool in a matter akin to Villager's F-Smash.
As if Pac-Man's tools at the edge of the stage weren't good enough.

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Hey everyone, I thought I would share my opinions on PAC-MAN and his progression as a character if he is to continue to be viable in the meta. Being a talented solo PAC-MAN main, I have thought about this for a while now, and I think it's time I can coherently share these thoughts.

PAC-MAN as a character in Smash 4 has been characterized as a zoning/defensive character. From what I have seen, commonly PAC-MAN players have begun to heavily rely on Bonus Fruit as their neutral and kill game. As time goes on, I feel like Bonus Fruit cannot become as big a crutch as players have made it. It is still a very important move, but I feel that the usage of the move will need to be changed in such a way that it can become "safer". What do I mean by this? I mean safer in the sense that fruit can be caught very easily by the opponent. Be it from an air dodge of shield a dash attack or just timing a catch with the attack button, the reality of the move is that it can be backfiring. More and more people are learning how to do this, and I feel that PAC-MAN players need to challenge themselves in this situation so they will know what to do in order to counter/prevent this kind of scene from happening. Here are my proposals:

1. Use the last 3 fruits as your primary Bonus Fruit usage.

Galboss, Bell and Key. In my opinion, I think these are the essential fruits to use. Galboss is amazing in neutral and stacking percent (it can even be used in kill combos and mindgames with side B). Galboss is also very easy for us to catch without being punished for it. Thrown Galaxian (Thrown as in caught from the initial throw) is my favorite fruit for neutral, as it can lead into several strings that work at low percents. In fact, I think I'll post my entire list of combos I made when labbing thrown Galboss a few months ago. They're a little messy but the point is that there are a lot of potential combos.

MOST COMBOS WILL PROBABLY WORK ON FAT/HEAVIES

0%
thrown galaxian - nair -galaxian 28
thrown galaxian - fair- footstool hydrant- galaxian- uair(fair can not reach because of character animation) -42
thrown galaxian - fair - galaxian bair NOT GUARANTEED ON MIDWEIGHTS, prob lightweights too - 38
MIDWEIGHT- thrown galaxian, nair, trampoline/grab? (if shielded)

20% on luigi
thrown galaxian fair galaxian rising bair -bair
NOT guaranteed in bewtween fair and galaxian #2 (ONLY GUARANTEED WHEN SPACED)


40% on midweight-heavy

thrown galaxian - fair - galaxian- nair (hits to right) galaxian - 43
thrown glaxian - fair - galaxian- rising bair - 35
thrown galaxian - fair footstool - galxian - hydrant drop - 32
thrown galaxian - fair - galaxian- uair

60
thrown galaxian nair galxian galaxian (?)(46)
thrown galaxian fair galaxian 23
thrown galaxian uair galaxian rising fair galaxian galaxian (47)
thrown galaxian fair galaxian nair 33
thrown galaxian - usmash - galaxian 32
thrown galaxian fair galaxian rising bair 35 (on sonic at 50)

80%
thrown galaxian (up close) uair- rising uair (mid or if galaxian doesn’t hit) - 29%
thrown galaxian- galxian- uair -rising uair
thrown galaxian - galaxian uair rising bair (close) (?)
(on sonic) thrown galxian double jump fair fair galaxian 28
(ON SONIC) thrown galax double jump fair fair 19

for midweights galaxian combos stop at 90%

With good combos of all shapes and sizes coming from a thrown Galboss (By the way which I must mention is probably one of the best OOS options PAC-MAN has) it is my pick for best fruit in the neutral.

Bell is a great fruit in the fact that it can be used for so many options. It can be used at low percents to lead into grab (which could potentially lead into jab locks), get good chunks of damage mid percent of fair to z drop bell off hitstun, it's z-drop hitbox is huge, making it ideal to use with hydrant launching (z-dropped bell can also be used at ledge to lead into side b kill as early as 70%!!) and, in conjunction with Power Pellet, can be a very good kill option that is reliable and safe (compared to kill options such as Blinky, Key or Back throw which can be DI'd at even high percents) If you get a hit of a bell stun on an opponent near the ledge at even percents like 70, the knockback the bell has with a coordinated Power Pellet can lead to very early kills. This is amazing. Bell is also my go-to fruit against characters like Mario and Fox, that have reflectors, and reflected bell is a fruit that can lead to no punish if reflected because of the angle. Bell to fair-footstool bell Blinky is a guaranteed kill combo at around 90-100 percent.

Key. The "strongest" Bonus Fruit. Key is probably our most important fruit because of the utilities it has. It can be used in neutral, as a punish tool, as an edgeguard, and as a kill option. Dropped hydrant to key is guaranteed at pretty much 0-80 depending on the height in which you dropped the hydrant. This can transform dropped hydrant edgeguards into a deadly combo. Key is also guaranteed at mid percents off dash attack, and can lead to very early kills because of it. Fair into Key is a tech-dependant kill option at around 110-120 depending on the opponents weight. I tend to use key as a kill options if my bell setups fail in the 70-100% range. Key is also important in one of PAC-MAN's hardest matchups, Mario, where it can be a strong punish for whenever Mario whiffs a cape or does fireball. Key is also pretty difficult to catch, and the opponent's commitment to trying to catch the key can allow for a spot of vulnerability. Overall, Key can be safe, reliable, and trusty compared to some of the weird properties and patterns the other fruit have.


​

2. Use Bonus Fruit as a bait and punish tool

I've described how easy it can be for the opponent to catch Bonus Fruit, and that it can possibly screw up the flow of PAC-MAN if not dealt with or countered properly. If you identify the opponent tries to catch every single fruit you throw at them, use this as a bait and punish tool. Remember, when they are holding any Bonus Fruit, they are restricted to throwing the fruit, shielding, rolling, spotdodging, and special moves, and jumping. This means that they are in a state of weakness, and now it's time for PAC-MAN to put on pressure. Whether it be aerial pressure, getting the opponent out of shield with Up-B or even grabbing, if you punish them for holding the fruit, it may make them think twice about doing it again, if they get a good chunk of percent on them. Also, remember that z dropped fruit from the opponent can be caught by us as easy as they can. If they z drop the fruit, use air dodge or a well timed aerial to grab it back. You can choose whatever to do with it then. Don't be scared if they catch a Key. remember, Key doesn't kill PAC-MAN until about 115-120 near the ledge. Don't respect them, and don't respect the Key. if you get hit by it, just rub it off. It won't be as bad as you might think it would be.
​

With my proposals on Bonus Fruit out of the way, my second part of my opinion on PAC-MAN's growth in the meta is based on not using Bonus Fruit as a primary option. As stated before, Bonus Fruit is a move that can be countered easily, and more and more people are implementing this in their anti-PAC-MAN playstyle. Relying less on Bonus Fruit is something that must be mastered. What does this mean exactly? Well, I'd like to think of it as making PAC-MAN's playstyle much more aggressive. PAC-MAN's aerials and tilts have good frame data. Nair has 3, Fair has 5, Bair and Uair have 9. PAC-MAN's Ftilt is actually one of the fastest in the game, being 5 frames or 4 when tilted up or down. PAC-MAN's utilt and dtilt come out on frame 7, and utilt, in my opinion, is one of PAC-MAN's most underrated moves. Utilt has a huge disjoint, and the hitbox is actually the red slash PAC-MAN makes when he does it. Utilt can combo into itself, then at mid percents (40-50) it can true combo into nair, then about 60-70% it can combo into Uair-uair-upb. Or, depending on DI or the direction in which you hit with Uair, Bair, Nair or Fair.

Using these aerials and tilts prominently I feel is very important for PAC-MAN. Most of the tilts and aerials can be used for anti-air or punishes, and are reliable ways of racking %. Side-B, Power Pellet, I feel will be our go-to kill option. I stated before it has amazing killing potential, and not only that, it can true combo off Z dropped fruit, or the stun from a bell. Unlike PAC-MAN's other kill options, which are Bonus Fruit and slow smashes, Side B is a very versatile and powerful tool that if utilized properly can make PAC-MAN's killing options not only reliable, but also very early based off reads and setups.

As a skilled and dedicated PAC-MAN main, I have been able to tell myself our character has weaknesses and is not the best pick for winning at this game compared to some of the objectively better characters. But, what fuels my success with PAC-MAN is the passion I have for him. The willing to learn and experiment but to also stick to the end with him. These are my thoughts on what PAC-MAN must do to counter-adapt to the developing meta. PAC-MAN cannot play quiet and reserved like he was able to get away with before. Now more utility on using Bonus Fruit and mastering usage of aerials and tilts will be important for PAC-MAN in order to grow. Hopefully I've been able to give a perspective on improvement, but also inspiration for our character to grow and become even better. These are my opinions, but hopefully I've convinced you all I know a little more than usual about our yellow ghost-gobbler.

Thanks all for reading, here's to PAC-MAN.

 

[Nu~]

Hey everyone, I thought I would share my opinions on PAC-MAN and his progression as a character if he is to continue to be viable in the meta. Being a talented solo PAC-MAN main, I have thought about this for a while now, and I think it's time I can coherently share these thoughts.

PAC-MAN as a character in Smash 4 has been characterized as a zoning/defensive character. From what I have seen, commonly PAC-MAN players have begun to heavily rely on Bonus Fruit as their neutral and kill game. As time goes on, I feel like Bonus Fruit cannot become as big a crutch as players have made it. It is still a very important move, but I feel that the usage of the move will need to be changed in such a way that it can become "safer". What do I mean by this? I mean safer in the sense that fruit can be caught very easily by the opponent. Be it from an air dodge of shield a dash attack or just timing a catch with the attack button, the reality of the move is that it can be backfiring. More and more people are learning how to do this, and I feel that PAC-MAN players need to challenge themselves in this situation so they will know what to do in order to counter/prevent this kind of scene from happening. Here are my proposals:

1. Use the last 3 fruits as your primary Bonus Fruit usage.

Galboss, Bell and Key. In my opinion, I think these are the essential fruits to use. Galboss is amazing in neutral and stacking percent (it can even be used in kill combos and mindgames with side B). Galboss is also very easy for us to catch without being punished for it. Thrown Galaxian (Thrown as in caught from the initial throw) is my favorite fruit for neutral, as it can lead into several strings that work at low percents. In fact, I think I'll post my entire list of combos I made when labbing thrown Galboss a few months ago. They're a little messy but the point is that there are a lot of potential combos.

MOST COMBOS WILL PROBABLY WORK ON FAT/HEAVIES

0%
thrown galaxian - nair -galaxian 28
thrown galaxian - fair- footstool hydrant- galaxian- uair(fair can not reach because of character animation) -42
thrown galaxian - fair - galaxian bair NOT GUARANTEED ON MIDWEIGHTS, prob lightweights too - 38
MIDWEIGHT- thrown galaxian, nair, trampoline/grab? (if shielded)

20% on luigi
thrown galaxian fair galaxian rising bair -bair
NOT guaranteed in bewtween fair and galaxian #2 (ONLY GUARANTEED WHEN SPACED)


40% on midweight-heavy

thrown galaxian - fair - galaxian- nair (hits to right) galaxian - 43
thrown glaxian - fair - galaxian- rising bair - 35
thrown galaxian - fair footstool - galxian - hydrant drop - 32
thrown galaxian - fair - galaxian- uair

60
thrown galaxian nair galxian galaxian (?)(46)
thrown galaxian fair galaxian 23
thrown galaxian uair galaxian rising fair galaxian galaxian (47)
thrown galaxian fair galaxian nair 33
thrown galaxian - usmash - galaxian 32
thrown galaxian fair galaxian rising bair 35 (on sonic at 50)

80%
thrown galaxian (up close) uair- rising uair (mid or if galaxian doesn’t hit) - 29%
thrown galaxian- galxian- uair -rising uair
thrown galaxian - galaxian uair rising bair (close) (?)
(on sonic) thrown galxian double jump fair fair galaxian 28
(ON SONIC) thrown galax double jump fair fair 19

for midweights galaxian combos stop at 90%

With good combos of all shapes and sizes coming from a thrown Galboss (By the way which I must mention is probably one of the best OOS options PAC-MAN has) it is my pick for best fruit in the neutral.

Bell is a great fruit in the fact that it can be used for so many options. It can be used at low percents to lead into grab (which could potentially lead into jab locks), get good chunks of damage mid percent of fair to z drop bell off hitstun, it's z-drop hitbox is huge, making it ideal to use with hydrant launching (z-dropped bell can also be used at ledge to lead into side b kill as early as 70%!!) and, in conjunction with Power Pellet, can be a very good kill option that is reliable and safe (compared to kill options such as Blinky, Key or Back throw which can be DI'd at even high percents) If you get a hit of a bell stun on an opponent near the ledge at even percents like 70, the knockback the bell has with a coordinated Power Pellet can lead to very early kills. This is amazing. Bell is also my go-to fruit against characters like Mario and Fox, that have reflectors, and reflected bell is a fruit that can lead to no punish if reflected because of the angle. Bell to fair-footstool bell Blinky is a guaranteed kill combo at around 90-100 percent.

Key. The "strongest" Bonus Fruit. Key is probably our most important fruit because of the utilities it has. It can be used in neutral, as a punish tool, as an edgeguard, and as a kill option. Dropped hydrant to key is guaranteed at pretty much 0-80 depending on the height in which you dropped the hydrant. This can transform dropped hydrant edgeguards into a deadly combo. Key is also guaranteed at mid percents off dash attack, and can lead to very early kills because of it. Fair into Key is a tech-dependant kill option at around 110-120 depending on the opponents weight. I tend to use key as a kill options if my bell setups fail in the 70-100% range. Key is also important in one of PAC-MAN's hardest matchups, Mario, where it can be a strong punish for whenever Mario whiffs a cape or does fireball. Key is also pretty difficult to catch, and the opponent's commitment to trying to catch the key can allow for a spot of vulnerability. Overall, Key can be safe, reliable, and trusty compared to some of the weird properties and patterns the other fruit have.


​

2. Use Bonus Fruit as a bait and punish tool

I've described how easy it can be for the opponent to catch Bonus Fruit, and that it can possibly screw up the flow of PAC-MAN if not dealt with or countered properly. If you identify the opponent tries to catch every single fruit you throw at them, use this as a bait and punish tool. Remember, when they are holding any Bonus Fruit, they are restricted to throwing the fruit, shielding, rolling, spotdodging, and special moves, and jumping. This means that they are in a state of weakness, and now it's time for PAC-MAN to put on pressure. Whether it be aerial pressure, getting the opponent out of shield with Up-B or even grabbing, if you punish them for holding the fruit, it may make them think twice about doing it again, if they get a good chunk of percent on them. Also, remember that z dropped fruit from the opponent can be caught by us as easy as they can. If they z drop the fruit, use air dodge or a well timed aerial to grab it back. You can choose whatever to do with it then. Don't be scared if they catch a Key. remember, Key doesn't kill PAC-MAN until about 115-120 near the ledge. Don't respect them, and don't respect the Key. if you get hit by it, just rub it off. It won't be as bad as you might think it would be.
​

With my proposals on Bonus Fruit out of the way, my second part of my opinion on PAC-MAN's growth in the meta is based on not using Bonus Fruit as a primary option. As stated before, Bonus Fruit is a move that can be countered easily, and more and more people are implementing this in their anti-PAC-MAN playstyle. Relying less on Bonus Fruit is something that must be mastered. What does this mean exactly? Well, I'd like to think of it as making PAC-MAN's playstyle much more aggressive. PAC-MAN's aerials and tilts have good frame data. Nair has 3, Fair has 5, Bair and Uair have 9. PAC-MAN's Ftilt is actually one of the fastest in the game, being 5 frames or 4 when tilted up or down. PAC-MAN's utilt and dtilt come out on frame 7, and utilt, in my opinion, is one of PAC-MAN's most underrated moves. Utilt has a huge disjoint, and the hitbox is actually the red slash PAC-MAN makes when he does it. Utilt can combo into itself, then at mid percents (40-50) it can true combo into nair, then about 60-70% it can combo into Uair-uair-upb. Or, depending on DI or the direction in which you hit with Uair, Bair, Nair or Fair.

Using these aerials and tilts prominently I feel is very important for PAC-MAN. Most of the tilts and aerials can be used for anti-air or punishes, and are reliable ways of racking %. Side-B, Power Pellet, I feel will be our go-to kill option. I stated before it has amazing killing potential, and not only that, it can true combo off Z dropped fruit, or the stun from a bell. Unlike PAC-MAN's other kill options, which are Bonus Fruit and slow smashes, Side B is a very versatile and powerful tool that if utilized properly can make PAC-MAN's killing options not only reliable, but also very early based off reads and setups.

As a skilled and dedicated PAC-MAN main, I have been able to tell myself our character has weaknesses and is not the best pick for winning at this game compared to some of the objectively better characters. But, what fuels my success with PAC-MAN is the passion I have for him. The willing to learn and experiment but to also stick to the end with him. These are my thoughts on what PAC-MAN must do to counter-adapt to the developing meta. PAC-MAN cannot play quiet and reserved like he was able to get away with before. Now more utility on using Bonus Fruit and mastering usage of aerials and tilts will be important for PAC-MAN in order to grow. Hopefully I've been able to give a perspective on improvement, but also inspiration for our character to grow and become even better. These are my opinions, but hopefully I've convinced you all I know a little more than usual about our yellow ghost-gobbler.

Thanks all for reading, here's to PAC-MAN.

Thanks for this man. I was just thinking the same thing, but with a differ t vision for the future.

I agree...somewhat.


I'm not sure if cutting out the lower tier fruits all together will be truly effective. I agree that galaxian, bell, and keys should be a strong focus, but think of the potential we would give up.

Let's be blunt.
Melons are trash if they aren't in the hand, let's admit it. Apples also aren't too hot outside of covering the diagonal.
Cherries and strawberries are catchable, slow pressure, and orange is only useful for a quick zoning tool/gimping...

But think about what happens when they reach our hand...


Cherries, strawberries, and melons turn into combos/kill confirms out of DITCIT or safe approaches. For example, DITCIT melon allows you you to run in front of your melon, giving you a safe approach in mid range that must be full jumped over since the melon covers grabs, rolls, and attacks while the pacman covers shield and reflectors. Pacman can actually catch the opponent if they choose to jump, but you have to react quickly. Meanwhile, strawberries can be thrown to cover your approach as you run in since strawberries travel the entire length of FD when throw out of a full hop.

Cherries and strawberries can also be used to buy time for Fair approaches. Throwing a strawberry/cherry up gives us time to set up hydrants that can be Fair'ed for safe approaches. Same with apples, but they bounce even longer and kill. Apples/Melons can be used to catch air dodges in the air and kill super early since the opponent would be closer to the vertical blast zone. Oranges don't really get much admittably lol. But we can edgeuard better by throwing them into the side of the stage. They bounce off and cover a lot of space.

Our traps get exponentially better too. http://youtu.be/4RW-n6Zbpvg
http://youtu.be/fT_s3LIbRvM

Also, as you know, every fruit travels faster when we are being pushed by water, but when item tossed, we are right there with our fruit to pressure opposing shields with grabs and trampolines to hit them into the fruit.

What I mean to say is, I think Pac-Man should use defense to buy time to set up. Then go and beat faces in lol.
We have many safe approaches like Fair -> Phantom Fruit/Fruit cancel and Hydrant gushed fruit to cover our approach even further, but most are with item caught fruit.

In my honest opinion, our meta should revolve around using caught fruit to go on the offensive and set up aggressive traps. Surrounding ourselves with hitboxes constantly as we go in is something I believe can happen with item tossed fruits and hydrants. Defensive traps and walls will only be used to buy time. Trampolines are a prime indicator of this seeing as how they act as temporary walls that can be used offensively proficiently.

This would move our area of offense into the mid range, while long range will be used primarily for defense and set up.

Shields are normally a problem that Pac-Man mains love to cry about (I used to do the same thing)
However, with item tossed fruit and constant hydrant pressure, we can make shielding their worst nightmare. We'll always have hitboxes surrounding us when we go in, so grabbing and trampoline becomes lethal for the opponent. Trampoline traps and grabs will be more effective because we will be able to force opponents into situations in which we can get safer grabs, or just use trampoline in the same scenarios to pop them into kill moves. Jab hydrant + grab is just one set up that isn't used enough that makes our grab unpunishable. Item tossed galaxians + hydrant, upwards Apple -> trampoline, Fair hydrant -> trampoline/ grab, and DITCIT melon -> grab/trampoline are just a few ways we have of dealing with shield.
As a passionate and skilled Pac-Man player, this is what I truly believe will be our future.


In the end, I share your passion for Pac-Man, and am happy to see that there are more Pac-man mains out there like us that won't give up on him

Edit: oh, and I love your idea on using fruits as a bait and punish tool. I would even go so far as to give our lower tier fruit to opponents that don't have projectiles just to limit their options when we go in.
I also fully agree with you on using tilts more and power Pellet for kill confirms, but only in combination with bells

 

[BSP]

Well, I'd like to think of it as making PAC-MAN's playstyle much more aggressive. PAC-MAN's aerials and tilts have good frame data. Nair has 3, Fair has 5, Bair and Uair have 9. PAC-MAN's Ftilt is actually one of the fastest in the game, being 5 frames or 4 when tilted up or down. PAC-MAN's utilt and dtilt come out on frame 7, and utilt, in my opinion, is one of PAC-MAN's most underrated moves. Utilt has a huge disjoint, and the hitbox is actually the red slash PAC-MAN makes when he does it. Utilt can combo into itself, then at mid percents (40-50) it can true combo into nair, then about 60-70% it can combo into Uair-uair-upb. Or, depending on DI or the direction in which you hit with Uair, Bair, Nair or Fair.

Using these aerials and tilts prominently I feel is very important for PAC-MAN. Most of the tilts and aerials can be used for anti-air or punishes, and are reliable ways of racking %. Side-B, Power Pellet, I feel will be our go-to kill option. I stated before it has amazing killing potential, and not only that, it can true combo off Z dropped fruit, or the stun from a bell. Unlike PAC-MAN's other kill options, which are Bonus Fruit and slow smashes, Side B is a very versatile and powerful tool that if utilized properly can make PAC-MAN's killing options not only reliable, but also very early based off reads and setups.

Without fruit or a hydrant backing us up, I think Pac-Man's aggro game is pretty weak. His aerials and tilts do have decent frame data, but they all lose to shield and we don't have a super punishing option against someone abusing shield against us. Assuming we don't get struck OoS, they can sit in shield and take the trampoline for 7%, then punish us on hit at lower % or be relieved or all pressure at higher %. I know up thrown Apple -> trampoline is a possible remedy, but that is also heavily telegraphed, locks you into Apple, requires setup to get the Apple in your hand, and still loses to decent reaction time.

In addition to that, we're pretty floaty with avg. mobility specs. Our SH game is avg. at best IMO. We can't keep putting out hitboxes like Mario + Sheik. We don't have the mobility specs to offer the same positional pressure as Falcon, Sonic, Fox, Diddy, etc. I have to stress the fact that our best answer to shield is to do 7% and return to neutral. Mario, Sheik, Falcon, Luigi, and others can all do 30%+ off of a simple grab + at least a positional advantage / edgeguard. We never get that for using our most reliable tool against shield, and it is a huge problem w.r.t. maintaining offensive pressure. We have amazing defensive tools and decent offense with a setup, but it's pretty rough for us without it.

Characters that are good at aggro can keep the pressure up consistently + safely, and their answer to shield doesn't reset the situation to neutral. We can't do either of those without prep time.

I don't foresee side B killing any competent opponent outside of bell stuns. The move is just too telegraphed and must be charged to do significant KB. We can aim it offstage to make it safe on whiff, but then we've just turned the tables on ourselves going for a KO.

Edit: they patched out angled side B being faster than non angled.

 

[Nu~]

Without fruit or a hydrant backing us up, I think Pac-Man's aggro game is pretty weak. His aerials and tilts do have decent frame data, but they all lose to shield and we don't have a super punishing option against someone abusing shield against us. Assuming we don't get struck OoS, they can sit in shield and take the trampoline for 7%, then punish us on hit at lower % or be relieved or all pressure at higher %. I know up thrown Apple -> trampoline is a possible remedy, but that is also heavily telegraphed, locks you into Apple, requires setup to get the Apple in your hand, and still loses to decent reaction time.

In addition to that, we're pretty floaty with avg. mobility specs. Our SH game is avg. at best IMO. We can't keep putting out hitboxes like Mario + Sheik. We don't have the mobility specs to offer the same positional pressure as Falcon, Sonic, Fox, Diddy, etc. I have to stress the fact that our best answer to shield is to do 7% and return to neutral. Mario, Sheik, Falcon, Luigi, and others can all do 30%+ off of a simple grab + positional advantage / edgeguard. We never get that for using our most reliable tool against shield, and it is a huge problem w.r.t. maintaining offensive pressure. We have amazing defensive tools and decent offense with a setup, but it's pretty rough for us without it.

Characters that are good at aggro can keep the pressure up consistently + safely, and their answer to shield doesn't reset the situation to neutral. We can't do either of those without prep time.

I don't foresee side B killing any competent opponent outside of bell stuns. The move is just too telegraphed and must be charged to do significant KB. We can aim it offstage to make it safe on whiff, but then we've just turned the tables on ourselves going for a KO.

Which is why you should read my reply...
Our best answer to shield without a fruit in hand is actually SH fair -> phantom fruit. Safe shield pressure that can't be hit by OoS options. With this, we can mix it up with Fair-> trampoline for mix ups and add more in like tilts when we land.

Or Fair hydrant-> trampoline, but that's not a consistent answer. You still have to mix it up.

 

[BSP]

I have a very hard time believing that Mario can't Usmash / Up B me OoS for Fair'ing his shield and not double jumping away immediately.

 

[Nu~]

I have a very hard time believing that Mario can't Usmash / Up B me OoS for Fair'ing his shield and not double jumping away immediately.

It's a SH retreating Fair into phantom fruit. By the time he runs to us, we have all options available to us again upon landing.

Try it before assuming my friend

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Without fruit or a hydrant backing us up, I think Pac-Man's aggro game is pretty weak. His aerials and tilts do have decent frame data, but they all lose to shield and we don't have a super punishing option against someone abusing shield against us. Assuming we don't get struck OoS, they can sit in shield and take the trampoline for 7%, then punish us on hit at lower % or be relieved or all pressure at higher %. I know up thrown Apple -> trampoline is a possible remedy, but that is also heavily telegraphed, locks you into Apple, requires setup to get the Apple in your hand, and still loses to decent reaction time.

In addition to that, we're pretty floaty with avg. mobility specs. Our SH game is avg. at best IMO. We can't keep putting out hitboxes like Mario + Sheik. We don't have the mobility specs to offer the same positional pressure as Falcon, Sonic, Fox, Diddy, etc. I have to stress the fact that our best answer to shield is to do 7% and return to neutral. Mario, Sheik, Falcon, Luigi, and others can all do 30%+ off of a simple grab + at least a positional advantage / edgeguard. We never get that for using our most reliable tool against shield, and it is a huge problem w.r.t. maintaining offensive pressure. We have amazing defensive tools and decent offense with a setup, but it's pretty rough for us without it.

Characters that are good at aggro can keep the pressure up consistently + safely, and their answer to shield doesn't reset the situation to neutral. We can't do either of those without prep time.

I don't foresee side B killing any competent opponent outside of bell stuns. The move is just too telegraphed and must be charged to do significant KB. We can aim it offstage to make it safe on whiff, but then we've just turned the tables on ourselves going for a KO.

Edit: they patched out angled side B being faster than non angled.

PAC-MAN has a very unique and useful ability where he can get 2 aerials out of a shorthop. Fair nair, fair fair, and fair uair. And like it or not, you will have to use PAC-MAN's bad grab one way or another. Unless the opponent doesn't have a reflector like Mario's cape, throwing a hydrant from fair, uair or jab and grabbing makes our grab almost safe. Retreating fair can autocancel if you rise with it properly, and fair Bonus Fruit Cancel Landing can convert into a grab off that poke from fair.

Comparing PAC-MAN's grab setups to grab based characters like Falcon or Luigi is really unfair IMO. No, we don't have 30% followups as easy as Luigi or Falcon or Sheik, but also keep in mind that's just how PAC-MAN is designed. There's nothing really you can do about said shield pressure other than brainstorm setups and actually use grab. You might not like using Up B for a simple shield breaking option, but it's really all we have in terms of a simple solution. And if PAC-MAN's flaws bother you too much, I would suggest then picking another character. PAC-MAN isn't anywhere perfect, but I feel like trying to find solutions is more productive than constantly saying we have flaws. Yes, our grab is bad, yes, we can get punished for Up B, but finding creative little niches to mix them up is interesting.

Side B will get most of it's kill confirms off bell, yes, but realize the fact that near the ledge and at high percents Side B doesn't need the charge time you would think. Edgeguarding with a z dropped fruit to get a kill confirm with side b converted? Really nice and easy mixup that is a huge punish for a simple mistake the opponent makes.

 

[Nu~]

PAC-MAN has a very unique and useful ability where he can get 2 aerials out of a shorthop. Fair nair, fair fair, and fair uair. And like it or not, you will have to use PAC-MAN's bad grab one way or another. Unless the opponent doesn't have a reflector like Mario's cape, throwing a hydrant from fair, uair or jab and grabbing makes our grab almost safe. Retreating fair can autocancel if you rise with it properly, and fair Bonus Fruit Cancel Landing can convert into a grab off that poke from fair.

Comparing PAC-MAN's grab setups to grab based characters like Falcon or Luigi is really unfair IMO. No, we don't have 30% followups as easy as Luigi or Falcon or Sheik, but also keep in mind that's just how PAC-MAN is designed. There's nothing really you can do about said shield pressure other than brainstorm setups and actually use grab. You might not like using Up B for a simple shield breaking option, but it's really all we have in terms of a simple solution. And if PAC-MAN's flaws bother you too much, I would suggest then picking another character. PAC-MAN isn't anywhere perfect, but I feel like trying to find solutions is more productive than constantly saying we have flaws. Yes, our grab is bad, yes, we can get punished for Up B, but finding creative little niches to mix them up is interesting.

Side B will get most of it's kill confirms off bell, yes, but realize the fact that near the ledge and at high percents Side B doesn't need the charge time you would think. Edgeguarding with a z dropped fruit to get a kill confirm with side b converted? Really nice and easy mixup that is a huge punish for a simple mistake the opponent makes.

Yeah, I fully agree with you here

This thread in general is a lot more pessimistic than most threads...

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Yeah, I fully agree with you here

This thread in general is a lot more pessimistic than most threads...

If you could make a video or something showing approaching with fair then Bonus Fruit cancelling like you've said I would appreciate it. I like visuals.

 

[Nu~]

If you could make a video or something showing approaching with fair then Bonus Fruit cancelling like you've said I would appreciate it. I like visuals.

I could make one right now, but my usual training partner is asleep

I can try tomorrow, or ask the person who found the technique @makemesmellbad

 

[Nu~]

Ah, found a use for oranges in the hand.

They send hydrants towards the opponent at incredibly high speeds. Z dropping it on the hydrant gives us essentially rapid fire hydrants. We can even delay it by gushing the fruit upwards and going in before it comes down. That way the opponent has to deal with us and a hydrant at any minute.

 

[BSP]

PAC-MAN has a very unique and useful ability where he can get 2 aerials out of a shorthop. Fair nair, fair fair, and fair uair. And like it or not, you will have to use PAC-MAN's bad grab one way or another. Unless the opponent doesn't have a reflector like Mario's cape, throwing a hydrant from fair, uair or jab and grabbing makes our grab almost safe. Retreating fair can autocancel if you rise with it properly, and fair Bonus Fruit Cancel Landing can convert into a grab off that poke from fair.

I know about the two aerials in a SH. They both still lose to shield, and some characters can probably retaliate between the Fair and the second aerial. You'll probably get shieldgrabbed unless you retreat the second one in each scenario, so Nair is pretty much out since it has small range. Other than that, it's a decent option, but it's just that. Decent. There's also the factor of the opponent contesting, in which case we probably lose the trade with our 5% Fair, but that's getting too far into dynamics.

All I have to say on grab is that you risk a smash attack / grab combo / the match depending on the opponent. Keep it in mind.

If you throw the hydant down from fair, uair, or jab range, you can be pressured very easily once it hits the ground if the opponent knows the MU. This happens frequently when I play brawlman (Sonic). A close range hydrant puts me on the defensive because he can Fair OoS and hit me if I do anything besides shield. If I shield, i get hit if he smashes my hydrant. Of course, I can read that and punish him for the smash or shield the Fair. Point: it's not great offensive pressure because the moment i put the hydrant down, i have to worry about getting hit myself.

I'll mess with Fair -> phantom fruit stuff. Fair doesn't have much stun, but I'll see what happens.

Yes, our grab is bad, yes, we can get punished for Up B, but finding creative little niches to mix them up is interesting.

I'm pushing back in theory land because I don't want any of us to dwell on things that aren't worth the risk : reward. I nitpick on things I've had bad experiences with.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

We can fair -> fast fall -> UpB without any lag. I can do it before touching the ground and it wins to shields. I don't use it very much and it is really good because they will stop using the shield and you can start doing nairs

 

[MachoCheeze]

This thread in general is a lot more pessimistic than most threads...

Dude you confuse pessimism with being realistic all of the time. We can say Pac-Man has all of these do-all tools that can cover everything, but when it comes to it its mostly just theorycrafting tactics that don't work in the long run. It's not bad to realize our weaknesses. Our character has a lot of them. Hopefully things can change with patches or as his meta evolves. Players like Abadango, Zage, and BSP are paving through things for us, which is awesome, but they all know Pac-Man's weaknesses and even though they place well they're realistic about the character we play.

He's fun, the most fun character I've played in a Smash game, but his character design of a hazards summoner who can have his toolkit used against him isn't balanced right. I shouldn't be so afraid to use my hydrant or fruits when people learn the match up. They took a lot away from Pac-Man in the patches (especially in the first patch) and it sucks, but that's how things are. His grab is atrocious, his KOing ability is bad, but damnit is he so stylish when everything comes together. He's the underdog character. He makes (most) people happy when they see him. He's a character that feels like you're creating art when you play him. But he's not the magical character that can do anything he wants just cause he has a lot of options. He has flaws. He's limited. We have to work twice as hard as about any character in this game to use him well.

We're all happy Pac-Man is in Sm4sh and we love to play him, but he's not perfect. He doesn't need to be perfect though. I love playing my happy-go-lucky, creative character. Do I get frustrated with his flaws? Hell yeah I do, but I'm gonna play him anyways. It's good to be optimistic about him, but not SO optimistic that you can't be realistic about things.

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Dude you confuse pessimism with being realistic all of the time. We can say Pac-Man has all of these do-all tools that can cover everything, but when it comes to it its mostly just theorycrafting tactics that don't work in the long run. It's not bad to realize our weaknesses. Our character has a lot of them. Hopefully things can change with patches or as his meta evolves. Players like Abadango, Zage, and BSP are paving through things for us, which is awesome, but they all know Pac-Man's weaknesses and even though they place well they're realistic about the character we play.

He's fun, the most fun character I've played in a Smash game, but his character design of a hazards summoner who can have his toolkit used against him isn't balanced right. I shouldn't be so afraid to use my hydrant or fruits when people learn the match up. They took a lot away from Pac-Man in the patches (especially in the first patch) and it sucks, but that's how things are. His grab is atrocious, his KOing ability is bad, but damnit is he so stylish when everything comes together. He's the underdog character. He makes (most) people happy when they see him. He's a character that feels like you're creating art when you play him. But he's not the magical character that can do anything he wants just cause he has a lot of options. He has flaws. He's limited. We have to work twice as hard as about any character in this game to use him well.

We're all happy Pac-Man is in Sm4sh and we love to play him, but he's not perfect. He doesn't need to be perfect though. I love playing my happy-go-lucky, creative character. Do I get frustrated with his flaws? Hell yeah I do, but I'm gonna play him anyways. It's good to be optimistic about him, but not SO optimistic that you can't be realistic about things.

This is like the most accurate summary of PAC-MAN I've seen. Especially "I shouldn't be so afraid to use my hydrant or fruits when people learn the match up." While I can't have much evidence of my skills since I'm unable to attend tournaments at the moment, I would like to think I'm trying my best to craft PAC-MAN's meta too.

 

[Nu~]

Dude you confuse pessimism with being realistic all of the time. We can say Pac-Man has all of these do-all tools that can cover everything, but when it comes to it its mostly just theorycrafting tactics that don't work in the long run. It's not bad to realize our weaknesses. Our character has a lot of them. Hopefully things can change with patches or as his meta evolves. Players like Abadango, Zage, and BSP are paving through things for us, which is awesome, but they all know Pac-Man's weaknesses and even though they place well they're realistic about the character we play.

He's fun, the most fun character I've played in a Smash game, but his character design of a hazards summoner who can have his toolkit used against him isn't balanced right. I shouldn't be so afraid to use my hydrant or fruits when people learn the match up. They took a lot away from Pac-Man in the patches (especially in the first patch) and it sucks, but that's how things are. His grab is atrocious, his KOing ability is bad, but damnit is he so stylish when everything comes together. He's the underdog character. He makes (most) people happy when they see him. He's a character that feels like you're creating art when you play him. But he's not the magical character that can do anything he wants just cause he has a lot of options. He has flaws. He's limited. We have to work twice as hard as about any character in this game to use him well.

We're all happy Pac-Man is in Sm4sh and we love to play him, but he's not perfect. He doesn't need to be perfect though. I love playing my happy-go-lucky, creative character. Do I get frustrated with his flaws? Hell yeah I do, but I'm gonna play him anyways. It's good to be optimistic about him, but not SO optimistic that you can't be realistic about things.

I would agree, if you didn't say that lie.

When have I introduced an idea that couldn't work in a match in the long term? I've worked my ass off in this thread finding tech and coming up with creative strategies to help our character grow. Many of us have, together.

The difference is that while I try to mitigate his flaws, others (not everyone) throw their hands in the air. I don't confuse being realistic with pessimism, but I do sometimes categorize apathy and fear of experimentation in the same place of pessimism. Too many people around here are afraid to try something out of fear of failure. What made me most upset is when Zage said that Abadango and Dee are "special cases"; that we won't perform as well as them. WTF kind of thinking is that!? We should all strive to surpass them and accelerate the growth of our character. No one should have to leave it as "it's just how it is" when we haven't even reached the end yet.

Don't you dare assume that I haven't helped or that my ideas were incorrect when you probably can't name one. I may be overly optimistic, but I'm not a lazy liar. I always test my ideas in the lab before bringing them here.

I agree that Pac-Man has flaws, you aren't telling me anything new in that department with his bad grab and counter-playable specials, but my optimism permeates it because it's just my personality.
I believe that we can always at least try to find a solution to a problem with the tools we have. And we already have mitigated some of them together. Even if it isn't an absolute solution. I can tell you now that my goal is to lessen the trouble we have with killing reliably. I don't believe that our kill power is bad by any means, but I do know that we don't have easy killing methods. But you would be damn right to assume that I'm trying to help us find a solution.

Pac-Man does have the tools to minimize his flaws, but you are right, it takes a lot of work. He still has to worry about more things than most characters.
Which is why he'll never be in top tier.

 

[Froggy]

People need to quit with doom and gloom about Pacman already. The character is fine. While the characters flaws are definitely really and he is by no mean top tier he is absolutely viable in top level play. We are seeing success from more than just Abadango now.

One thing l'll say about Pacman is that he is certainly not for everybody and I think more so than perhaps any other character in the game he has to really adjust his stratagems depending on the character he fights. Specifically which fruits to emphasize and how much/where Hydrant and Trampoline are utilized. He cannot bully his way in like other characters nor can he get by with a streamlined playstyle.