Official Pac-Man's Amazing Full Colour Fan Club! - Pac-Man General Thread

[Jenny Wakeman]

I wouldn't necessarily say PAC-MAN is "fine" but that's just my opinion. For him to be good in my eyes would either be a buff to his grab or some combo confirm off a throw. Being realistic is definitely something you need to take into account with any character, not just PAC-MAN. And if you find yourself struggling with PAC-MAN, there are more than 50 other characters available to play with. I do believe that in higher level play that PAC-MAN will need a secondary to cushion him, because right now I don't think anybody has the perfected skill to succeed with PAC-MAN's bad matchups right now. In order for that scenario to happen, it will take a lot of time commitment and practice if you want that goal of mostly playing PAC-MAN. And, being realistic, PAC-MAN is not the character that is safe to win with, because of his high skill level and weaknesses. This combination of things, at least without any sort of buffs in patches, will never make PAC-MAN high tier or top tier. Other characters have much easier methods and combos that are safer and more simple to pull off (i.e Luigi dthrow combos).

My goal in Smash is to be a noteworthy PAC-MAN player in the Smash community, here and where-ever. Hopefully I've been going down the right path and showing my skill and intellect of PAC-MAN, because of my dedicated passion towards him. I work very very hard with playing PAC-MAN and i still tell myself that he is far from perfect, even when I win or lose. This is why I predict in time top players who are playing PAC-MAN or even consider him will either demote him to a secondary or pocket character, because their main goal is to win, and right now, PAC-MAN doesn't have the reliability of winning compared to the high tier characters.

I'm not saying everyone drop PAC-MAN he is bad. If you want a better chance at winning, then I would recommend picking a secondary at the very least. Mastering PAC-MAN will take lots and lots of dedication and passion. Everyday I find something new to do with him, and hopefully that will make me advance in being a noteworthy PAC-MAN.

 

[Maziyah]

My vids are up, would you guys like to see? I switched off of pac against mario and mii brawler tho, but i have a bunch of strictly pac vids.

 

[Nu~]

Don't agree about him never being a high tier, but agree that he takes dedication.

 

[Zage]

What made me most upset is when Zage said that Abadango and Dee are "special cases"; that we won't perform as well as them. WTF kind of thinking is that!? .

That is not what I said at all. Please don't spread misinformation about what I said.

 

[Nu~]

That is not what I said at all. Please don't spread misinformation about what I said.

"Abadango and Dee are very good players in their own right and know how to play Pacman and use his tricks to a extremely high level to get what they want. They're outliers and any run of the mill Pac-man is not going to perform at the same level."

What were you trying to get across from this then

 

[fromundaman]

Dude you confuse pessimism with being realistic all of the time. We can say Pac-Man has all of these do-all tools that can cover everything, but when it comes to it its mostly just theorycrafting tactics that don't work in the long run. It's not bad to realize our weaknesses. Our character has a lot of them. Hopefully things can change with patches or as his meta evolves. Players like Abadango, Zage, and BSP are paving through things for us, which is awesome, but they all know Pac-Man's weaknesses and even though they place well they're realistic about the character we play.

He's fun, the most fun character I've played in a Smash game, but his character design of a hazards summoner who can have his toolkit used against him isn't balanced right. I shouldn't be so afraid to use my hydrant or fruits when people learn the match up. They took a lot away from Pac-Man in the patches (especially in the first patch) and it sucks, but that's how things are. His grab is atrocious, his KOing ability is bad, but damnit is he so stylish when everything comes together. He's the underdog character. He makes (most) people happy when they see him. He's a character that feels like you're creating art when you play him. But he's not the magical character that can do anything he wants just cause he has a lot of options. He has flaws. He's limited. We have to work twice as hard as about any character in this game to use him well.

We're all happy Pac-Man is in Sm4sh and we love to play him, but he's not perfect. He doesn't need to be perfect though. I love playing my happy-go-lucky, creative character. Do I get frustrated with his flaws? Hell yeah I do, but I'm gonna play him anyways. It's good to be optimistic about him, but not SO optimistic that you can't be realistic about things.

I only half agree with you.

It is indeed super important to know and acknowledge your characters' weaknesses and strengths; I just don't agree with you on what those are.

None of the tech that has been found straight up "doesn't work" on good opponents. HOWEVER, we are not like other characters, and we have very few BnB tactics with just about everything else being situational. Unlike most characters though, all of our situational stuff is in fact worth the trouble of learning and so while we may not use all of our tech in any given match, it all does serve a purpose and can/will work in a competitive match as long as you don't get predictable.

This is however both a great strength (As we do in fact have tools for damn near any situation if we have worked enough to recognize what we need for the situation) and our only weakness.

___

Do we have trouble KOing? Not if we can recognize situations and pull off any of our 10000 different situational kill setups (And having one of the nastiest BnB KO setups at the ledge helps). Hell our ledge game should net us kills more often than not.

We also have normals that kill fairly well, such as Nair and Bair (Seriously, try not to refresh Nair again when the opponent gets around 90-100% ish. You may be surprised at how well that move can kill, which is ridiculous considering how good it is. Hell, against some people NOT breaking combos with it until they get to kill %s lets them set up kills for you since no one seems to know how good that move is at combo breaking and killing.).

Our smashes are also really powerful. "But Fromundaman, there's a billion years of end lag on our smashes! How can I justify using those?"
This is easily solved by just throwing a smash while being pushed off the stage/platform by hydrant to immediately go into neutral. Or use a fruit to cover you. Or use hydrant to cover you. In some rare cases you can even use trampoline to cancel your end lag (Although going into UpB animation may be more hazardous).

Oh none of that is working? Well ****, good thing we have a near instant full screen punish tool that can KO around 150-160% if we absolutely failed to kill with anything else (And yes, I do feel key is almost exclusively a punish tool).

___

Our grab is bad? Nah... it's situational, just like everything else. I can't call a grab that beats the "anti-grab" button (spotdodge) in this game bad, but it is different from other grabs and simultaneously better and much worse. You already know what makes it worse, so I won't go into that, but having a lingering grab is a huge deal, especially when mixed with every other tool we have.

___

Honestly, if I were to acknowledge any other weakness, it would be Fair's lack of a disjoint, but that's probably more of a personal thing.

Seriously though, I don't see the "plenty" of weaknesses you mention; I see one, and it's partially offset by our strengths.

Nothing wrong with being honest about your character, that much I do agree with you on, but I think you're downplaying more than anything else.

 

[Zage]

"Abadango and Dee are very good players in their own right and know how to play Pacman and use his tricks to a extremely high level to get what they want. They're outliers and any run of the mill Pac-man is not going to perform at the same level."

What were you trying to get across from this then

That they are outliars, what I said is in plain sight for you to read.

Pac-man isn't that underprepresented. There are dozens of pac-man mains out there and none of them get high results at nationals other than Abadango.

 

[fromundaman]

That they are outliars, what I said is in plain sight for you to read.

Pac-man isn't that underprepresented. There are dozens of pac-man mains out there and none of them get high results at nationals other than Abadango.

To be fair, while you're not wrong, the same can be said about just about any character in any fighting game with the exception of usually the top 3 characters in any given game.

For example: Name a Mario who is placing at majors who isn't Ally. A Diddy who isn't Angel/Zero. A Cap who isn't Fatality. A ZSS who isn't Nairo. You get the point.

The top players will place well with their characters; the others won't. That's all there is to it.

 

[Nu~]

That they are outliars, what I said is in plain sight for you to read.

Pac-man isn't that underprepresented. There are dozens of pac-man mains out there and none of them get high results at nationals other than Abadango.

Isn't being an outlier and a special case the same thing?

Semantics...

 

[Froggy]

That they are outliars, what I said is in plain sight for you to read.

Pac-man isn't that underprepresented. There are dozens of pac-man mains out there and none of them get high results at nationals other than Abadango.

You could say that for nearly every character you know. Take for example Rosalina and Sonic, you remove Dabuz and 6WX from the equation and the characters really are not placing well at all. Yet everyone agrees they are top tier.

@ Sinji You seem to be the only Pacman in America making impressive upsets at the moment. How Viable of a character o you feel Pacman is.

 

[Nu~]

What's popping @ FullMoon ?

 

[FullMoon]

What's popping @ FullMoon ?

Oh man I've been spotted.

I've been lurking around this place for months now and only now I've been called out on it =V

 

[Zage]

For example: Name a Mario who is placing at majors who isn't Ally. A Diddy who isn't Angel/Zero. A Cap who isn't Fatality. A ZSS who isn't Nairo. You get the point.

The top players will place well with their characters; the others won't. That's all there is to it.

you remove Dabuz and 6WX from the equation and the characters really are not placing well at all. Yet everyone agrees they are top tier.

But that isn't true neither lol.
http://smashboards.com/threads/notable-players-list-aug-15-fox-sonic.396344/

Mario has Xzax, BoTastic, and Zenyou.
Diddy has MVD, Angel and Zero.
Cap has Acid, Tearbear, Nairo and Souther.
ZSS has Nairo, NickRiddle, VaBengal and Choco.
Sonic has 6WX, Seagull Joe, Manny and Espy.
Rosalina has Dabuz, Xaltis, falln ,Rayquaza

All these players have placed top 32 at nationals and are power ranked.

As for Pac-man. We literally just have Abadango. I would say Dee, but to my knowledge he hasn't attended any. Which is a shame because hes easily the best Pac-man.

Isn't being an outlier and a special case the same thing?

Semantics...

Yeah? That doesn't change anything. You literally took everything I said out of context in your previous post and tried to insinuate something that I clearly didn't say or imply. I'm not sure if you didn't expect me to not call you out on this, or you just didn't care. But stop dude.


There is no doom and gloom here, its just facts. And its crazy that this all literally started from me saying Pac-man has trouble KOing compared to other characters which is nothing short of the truth.

What's even more funny is that its literally just you who thinks I'm questioning Pac-man's viability. Yeah I place him low B/High C tier, but that isn't even in that bad in a game where the gaps between tiers aren't that big compared to Melee and Brawl, and I still solo main him regardless.

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Something I notice Dee doing is jab jab to smashes or fruit. I have no idea how he can get away with it, I've tried to do it before and no luck...

 

[BSP]

In other news, I might make it to something notable for once. I plan to wreck face, and by that I mean to make people hate Pac-Man.

 

[Nu~]

Yeah? That doesn't change anything. You literally took everything I said out of context in your previous post and tried to insinuate something that I clearly didn't say or imply. I'm not sure if you didn't expect me to not call you out on this, or just don't care. But stop dude.

By saying that Abadango and Dee are outliers and that any other Pacman won't perform as well as them, you were trying to justify your point that Pac-Man isn't that good since only a choice select people can use him like that. This doesn't only imply that Pac-Man isn't that good, but it also implies that other Pac-Man mains won't perform that well. That Abadango and Dee are some kind of "mid tier heroes" that not everyone can reach the level of because Pac-Man is overall detrimental to tourney success. I'm calling you out on that because I believe that it's both the character, and their skill that allows them to win.
I'm not trolling, I'm just not taking your statement at face value

There is no doom and gloom here, its just facts. And its crazy that this all literally started from me saying Pac-man has trouble KOing compared to other characters which is nothing short of the truth.

I don't why you keep insisting that this is a fact. It still stems from your opinion because it starts from what you believe is an "easy KO option". From what @ fromundaman and I have said, clearly there is a distinction between our opinions of good kill power.

Stop throwing out opinions masked as fact and I won't keep arguing.

Actually, by this point, it's best to agree to disagree.

In other news, I might make it to something notable for once. I plan to wreck face, and by that I mean to make people hate Pac-Man.

Not sure if I like where this is going...

What's even more funny is that its literally just you who thinks I'm questioning Pac-man's viability. Yeah I place him low B/High C tier, but that isn't even in that bad in a game where the gaps between tiers aren't that big compared to Melee and Brawl, and I still solo main him regardless.

If I cared what the others think in regards to my opinion, I would have stopped a long time ago.

 

[Zage]

By saying that Abadango and Dee are outliers and that any other Pacman won't perform as well as them

They aren't, but that isn't to say that they can't in the future. Only Abadango has placed top 32 with Pac-man at nationals/majors. You literally cannot argue this.

you were trying to justify your point that Pac-Man isn't that good since only a choice select people can use him like that

That isn't what I said at all. I'm 100% convinced that you are just making stuff up at this point, or just a really good troll.

No where on this entire website can I be quoted saying Pac-man isn't a good character.

My entire original point for calling Abadango is an outlier because he is the only one who is placing high, where as other high tiers have multiple players who place top 32

If I cared what the others think in regards to my opinion, I would have stopped a long time ago.

????????????????????????????????????????????????

This response doesn't even make any sense. You're literally putting words into my mouth and you just call it your opinion?

If I haven't seen a use for the ignore button, I definitely have now.

 

[Nu~]

They aren't, but that isn't to say that they can't in the future. Only Abadango has placed top 32 with Pac-man at nationals/majors. You literally cannot argue this.


That isn't what I said at all. I'm 100% convinced that you are just making stuff up at this point, or just a really good troll.

No where on this entire website can I be quoted saying Pac-man isn't a good character.

My entire original point for calling Abadango is an outlier because he is the only one who is placing high, where as other high tiers have multiple players who place top 32




????????????????????????????????????????????????

This response doesn't even make any sense. You're literally putting words into my mouth and you just call it your opinion?

If I haven't seen a use for the ignore button, I definitely have now.

You said it's funny that I am the only one who thinks that you are questioning his viability. My reply was that I don't care. Opinion probably wasn't the best word choice...

Ugh. I'm getting the feeling that this entire debate was a huge misunderstanding

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

I am starting to remember why I don't frequent here often...

 

[Nu~]

Yeah...I messed up
@ Zage
You know what dude, I'm sorry. I got everything mixed up in a blind sense of defense for my character.

Ended up defending something that didn't need to be defended. I apologize for the headache I've caused...

Edit: Zage straight up logged out.
Not surprised considering how this argument ended...

 

[Froggy]

But that isn't true neither lol.
http://smashboards.com/threads/notable-players-list-aug-15-fox-sonic.396344/

Mario has Xzax, BoTastic, and Zenyou.
Diddy has MVD, Angel and Zero.
Cap has Acid, Tearbear, Nairo and Souther.
ZSS has Nairo, NickRiddle, VaBengal and Choco.
Sonic has 6WX, Seagull Joe, Manny and Espy.
Rosalina has Dabuz, Xaltis, falln ,Rayquaza

All these players have placed top 32 at nationals and are power ranked.

As for Pac-man. We literally just have Abadango. I would say Dee, but to my knowledge he hasn't attended any. Which is a shame because hes easily the best Pac-man.

They aren't, but that isn't to say that they can't in the future. Only Abadango has placed top 32 with Pac-man at nationals/majors. You literally cannot argue this

Well you got 17th at SmashCon which was definitely a national so yeah I literally can argue that. Also what are we qualifying as a national tournament? Because a lot of those players you listed have not placed top 32 at anything close to Apex at SmashCon, if you're talking a tier beneath that like large regional tournaments then both Sinji and Maziyah got top 32 at nebulous prime #1 an Kool-aid got top 32 at some tournament that escapes my mind right now

Yeah...I messed up
@ Zage
You know what dude, I'm sorry. I got everything mixed up in a blind sense of defense for my character.

Ended up defending something that didn't need to be defended. I apologize for the headache I've caused...

Edit: Zage straight up logged out.
Not surprised considering how this argument ended...

You know you like to claim that I'm the one with the temper who drags people into unnecessary conflicts but you're just as bad ; look at you arguing with someone who is not me.

 

[Maziyah]

Well you got 17th at SmashCon which was definitely a national so yeah I literally can argue that. Also what are we qualifying as a national tournament? Because a lot of those players you listed have not placed top 32 at anything close to Apex at SmashCon, if you're talking a tier beneath that like large regional tournaments then both Sinji and Maziyah got top 32 at nebulous prime #1 an Kool-aid got top 32 at some tournament that escapes my mind right now



You know you like to claim that I'm the one with the temper who drags people into unnecessary conflicts but you're just as bad ; look at you arguing with someone who is not me.

Shinji been doing really good lol! I got third saturday, I think the reason pacs dont place high is a lot of pac man representation dont go to big tourneys, I would if I could.

 

[Nu~]

Well you got 17th at SmashCon which was definitely a national so yeah I literally can argue that. Also what are we qualifying as a national tournament? Because a lot of those players you listed have not placed top 32 at anything close to Apex at SmashCon, if you're talking a tier beneath that like large regional tournaments then both Sinji and Maziyah got top 32 at nebulous prime #1 an Kool-aid got top 32 at some tournament that escapes my mind right now



You know you like to claim that I'm the one with the temper who drags people into unnecessary conflicts but you're just as bad ; look at you arguing with someone who is not me.

This isn't the time lol.
I get into arguments because I can be way too passionate at times.

You always ended up triggering me in the past with your abrasive argument tone
But whatever man. We cool lol

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Shinji been doing really good lol! I got third saturday, I think the reason pacs dont place high is a lot of pac man representation dont go to big tourneys, I would if I could.

Be lucky you can go to any tourneys at all.

 

[Froggy]

Be lucky you can go to any tourneys at all.

I'm stalk in rural massachusettss without a car. So no tournies for a while. There is supposed to be a scene starting a little west of me, but they've been saying that for a while.

 

[Maziyah]

Be lucky you can go to any tourneys at all.

I try to go to anything possible lol

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

I have no license, no car, and no real money to splurge. Tournaments are something I can't put into my life right now (if there were really any near me), but I'd still like to say I am very skilled with PAC-MAN regardless.

 

[Nu~]

I want to play all of you at some point.

 

[NimbusSpark]

I want to play all of you at some point.

Good luck doing that with someone in Australia who also has a fairly poor internet connection. I.E. Me.

 

[Nu~]

You're killing the dream dude

 

[Galaxian]

I DON'T KNOW IF THE CONVERSATION IS OVER BUT WHOOOOPS

Pac-Man is good. We all know this. He's not top 10, but he's pretty good. Probably mid-B, or something.

Why doesn't he get results? Because a lot of people play MUs that can mess him up. Sheik is a bit common, Fox, maybe Mario, Falcon, etc. They're not AWFUL MUs, per say, but they can **** your Pac up if you don't know what you're doing. Pac-Man is represented. He's not bad, but there are people that might know how to deal with him or just characters can deal with him very easy. Pac-Man needs space to function well - sure, you can do really well in pools, but an experienced player might make you panic with a Mario or something. What I'm saying is that Pac-Man can flub up easily and lose the match.

He HAS representation, though. Don't worry.

@ Nu~ If you want to play you can hit me up. Hopefully lag doesn't get too bad, but if you really want to play tonight then I'm down.

 

[Froggy]

I should have asked PepeSpain what he thought about this as well. He has been doing impressive things in Europe.

 

[Sinji]

You could say that for nearly every character you know. Take for example Rosalina and Sonic, you remove Dabuz and 6WX from the equation and the characters really are not placing well at all. Yet everyone agrees they are top tier.

@ Sinji You seem to be the only Pacman in America making impressive upsets at the moment. How Viable of a character o you feel Pacman is.

Where I think Pac-Man is on the tier list. He is high tier. Since there is 52 characters in the game, high tier is from 11-20 on average. I talked to Wes and Zee about it and we think there is a range in Pacman's tier. He is in a 15-17 range in the tier list, which consist of Villager, Megaman and Pac-man. Pacman and the other characters listed can be in any order. By match up theory, Pac-Man beats both characters but in tournament exposure, (to the masses), Pac-Man is either irrelevant until Abadango shows up in America, or they would go by Zero's tier list on youtube and simply say he is mid tier. To be safe, he is 17 for now. Every weekend, on VGbootcamp or another American stream, you see mostly Villager players and Megaman players. No Pacmans. So with more exposure comes more data and easier placement in the tier list.

Players that don't use Pac-Man know he's good. But they can't explain why he's good. The furthest they can go is " His traps " . They can't really go into detail and explain further. The more I go to Nebulous, the more people come up to me after one of my matches and say " When you did "x" in this situation with the melon, it was really cool " . It shows that more Pac-Man data is cultivating in the Western Hemisphere.

 

[Nu~]

Where I think Pac-Man is on the tier list. He is high tier. Since there is 52 characters in the game, high tier is from 11-20 on average. I talked to Wes and Zee about it and we think there is a range in Pacman's tier. He is in a 15-17 range in the tier list, which consist of Villager, Megaman and Pac-man. Pacman and the other characters listed can be in any order. By match up theory, Pac-Man beats both characters but in tournament exposure, (to the masses), Pac-Man is either irrelevant until Abadango shows up in America, or they would go by Zero's tier list on youtube and simply say he is mid tier. To be safe, he is 17 for now. Every weekend, on VGbootcamp or another American stream, you see mostly Villager players and Megaman players. No Pacmans. So with more exposure comes more data and easier placement in the tier list.

Players that don't use Pac-Man know he's good. But they can't explain why he's good. The furthest they can go is " His traps " . They can't really go into detail and explain further. The more I go to Nebulous, the more people come up to me after one of my matches and say " When you did "x" in this situation with the melon, it was really cool " . It shows that more Pac-Man data is cultivating in the Western Hemisphere.

Agreed. You don't think his "lack of kill power" and "weakness to shield" hold him back too much?

 

[Maziyah]

Agreed. You don't think his "lack of kill power" and "weakness to shield" hold him back too much?

Man I feel as if you want to play with pac you gotta understand yes some of his things are subpar, BUT there are ways to work around it, its like saying we lose to certain things while being flowchart. Maybe its not Pac-man losing these match ups perhaps its the way you play him, playing aggro i stuggle against certain things and i know you more defensive pacs struggle against other things.

 

[Nu~]

Man I feel as if you want to play with pac you gotta understand yes some of his things are subpar, BUT there are ways to work around it, its like saying we lose to certain things while being flowchart. Maybe its not Pac-man losing these match ups perhaps its the way you play him, playing aggro i stuggle against certain things and i know you more defensive pacs struggle against other things.

Exactly. I find aggressive play and offensive traps more fun, but will play defensively if the matchup calls for it (Luigi, shiek)

I think the goal is to switch between offense and defense when the time calls for it. Defend until you set up, and then go on the offensive.

 

[BSP]

We might have a fundamental disconnection here. Do some of you not think, compared to most characters, Pac-Man has a harder time dealing with shield well?

I know that trampoline is reliable, but I also know that trampoline resets the situation to neutral and won't KO until ~200%. I know we have workarounds, but having to put in so much effort to beat such a universally strong option => we have a harder time dealing with shield than others.

The above problem bleeds into KO problems because we have less chances for edgeguards. Very few characters have reliable KO throws , throws that set up into KO moves, or lead into 50/50s, but I feel that our lack of any of those (minus Bthrow at the ledge) makes our KO'ing more suspect than most. Yes, we have workarounds, but I think we should accept the fact that we have it a tad harder.

 

[Sinji]

Agreed. You don't think his "lack of kill power" and "weakness to shield" hold him back too much?

His weakness to shield is a big one. I've been working on dair as a shield poke option beat this out. I got a couple of those on John Numbers last week. Also key plus hydrant can shield poke with the hydrant being the poker. Galaxion Z drops are great as well.

 

[Zage]

We might have a fundamental disconnect here. Do some of you not think, compared to most characters, Pac-Man has a harder time dealing with shield well?

I know that trampoline is reliable, but I also know that trampoline resets the situation to neutral and won't KO until ~200%. I know while have workarounds, but having to put in so much effort to beat such a universally strong option => we have a harder time dealing with shield than others.

Yes, we have workarounds, but I think we should accept the fact that we have it a tad harder.

Pretty much, we don't have straight forward options to beat shields like other characters and usually have to rely on situational setups or shield pokes against players who don't angle their shields.

Lately I've given Z-dropping Galaxian onto their shield and then grabbing though. The second hit of gala will either keep them in shield long enough for you to grab or just beat their OOS option if they have a bad OOS game and wasn't expecting a second hit.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Was I just playing with one of you?
Aka is -Blue- here?

Gg, you're really good.