Guide Pac Attack - Advanced Techniques and Strategy Guide

[Huge]

On the topic of gushin', I've also been messing around with the fruit and hydrant lately. I'm currently trying to perfect a technique worthy of a badly-edited COD montage: after dropping the hydrant, try shorthopping to make sure the water doesn't come upwards, running off of the hydrant just as the water (the actual push-box) starts to come out, and then throwing a key directly through the water stream going forwards. If you do this correctly, the key will get a massive burst of speed going forwards and a mean slightly diagonal trajectory. Not entirely practical, maybe, but still a fun tool to have. It's nice to see that Pac has the potential to snipe people.

Also try fullhopping off of the hydrant immediately after you spawn it; this is actually the perfect timing to land on the water gush. If you back into the flow, you can do the sniper trick I mentioned earlier. You can also do some sort of 'self-aquaplaning' by approaching with a gushed Fair, Nair or Bair. Bonus points for letting the water ledge-cancel your fair, and comboing that into a nair. Going deep here.

 

[Splebel]

I decided to lab a lot tonight during my frustration and I found something I think might be super interesting.

Basically I thought that no Pac really uses the upwards water spout to use so I decided to mix some z-drop shenanigans in with it. If you z-drop a Galaxian while being carried by the water it'll shoot up, come back down, and hit the hydrant twice and send it whichever way you were facing. So essentially we could be in neutral and have a delayed Hyrant plow through out of the middle of nowhere. This works with the Key as well if you manage to snag it.

I also think we can use this as a way to catch people recovering high. The Melon can kill marth off the top platform of battlefield/miiverse around 125% when gushed up. The key will obviously kill way earlier. Depending on when you z drop your fruit will also determine how high your fruit goes.

I'm sorry if this has been looked at before, but I don't think I've seen a pac really utilize the upwards water spout.

I've been doing this since 1.08. You beat me to it for posting because I've been trying to get the situations down but now you forced me to put them here. It's real useful for approaching if they decide to not hit the hydrant. It's also good for edgeguarding because it can set up while you are away. The galaxian can land on the second water spurt though and then the hydrant doesn't launch. Another situation is approaching and grabbing but you need to dthrow them towards the hydrant to be effective so it's not really recommended.

My favorite part is the set up can be changed at any time. They attack the hydrant? Drop galaxian on them. They come for the air attack drop galaxian and watch as they get hit by it in the air. They knock away the hydrant? Galaxian falls back down on them.

Yeah man, this is one of my favorite techs, because if you use they key with this near the edge when someones off of it and try to force them back on, it's pretty much the closest thing Pac is gonna get to an actual wall of pain! Been callin' it the Geyser attack.

I've been calling it Super Delayed Hydrant Launch.

Also Bonus style points if the opponent KO's you after you zdrop the galaxian but before the hydrant launches but your body obscures the screen where the hydrant is so the opponent doesn't see it and gets smacked by it. I didn't save that replay for some reason but it was funny.

 

[Nu~]

How many of you put hydrants at the ledge to cover get up options with an extended hitbox?
After watching Dee, I've been thinking that by placing a hydrant at the ledge and charging a Pinky/Clyde, we could catch neutral get up, jump, and attack getups with an extended pinky hitbox + launched hydrant damage. Rolls would be covered by the Clyde on the other side.

I also noticed that he would use @ BSP 's technique of trampoline launched hydrants but on stage instead of on the ledge. I'm thinking that this could be the future of our trampoline game. We can enhance our trampoline's defensive power by combining it with hydrant whenever we get the chance. This can also be a way to block out all kinds of projectile spam since the hydrant eats any projectile that hits it.

 

[MachoCheeze]

I was messing around with Bell -> Footstool in the lab tonight and I think I found something neat.

After the percent that fair -> Bell kill confirm stops working we can fair -> Bell -> footstool -> smash attack. The timing is tight and the footstool is tight depending on the character. This also works in the air too. Kind of situation but its nice and flashy

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I was messing around with Bell -> Footstool in the lab tonight and I think I found something neat.

After the percent that fair -> Bell kill confirm stops working we can fair -> Bell -> footstool -> smash attack. The timing is tight and the footstool is tight depending on the character. This also works in the air too. Kind of situation but its nice and flashy

You can catch the bell and dthrow it...

 

[Hammyfreak]

Ok I have a couple things i need to mention. First of all, for those of you struggling to launch the hydrant with z dropping, try z dropping the key and immediately dropping the hydrant on top of it. So far it launches the hydrant every time for me.

Second, i have a fun little combo with the melon. first retrieve the melon using whatever method. then get about rolling distance from your opponent and throw the melon up. most of the time they are expecting a direct throw and they will shield. then dash forward and grab them and follow up with a back throw. If executed correctly, you should throw them directly into the floating melon. It is so satisfying when you pull this off.

 

[makemesmellbad]

I think it should be mentioned that Fruit Cancel can also work like G&W's b-air cancel. For example, after doing a f-air at the apex of a short hop (not immediately), Pac-Man has a few options to avoid the landing lag he would normally experience:

1) Double jump - While this is a decent option and allows for more aerial followups, Pac-Man is still vulnerable to better aerials than his own or anti-airs.
2) Second aerial - A more offensive option, if you throw out another f-air, you'll have the same amount of landing lag as if you only did one anyway. Same risk, greater reward.
3) FC landing - this is the best option in this situation and any other situation like it. Because Pac-Man can act very quickly after a f-air, he can avoid the rest of the move penalizing him with landing lag by Fruit Cancelling. This landing is literally lagless, and can open up a variety of approach options and poke mixups.

FC landings also work well when executing a retreating f-air (for whatever reason, moving backwards while inputting a f-air sometimes still grants landing lag). FC is a much stronger technique than us Pac-Mains have been giving it credit for, and I personally think that this can be what makes Pac-Man excel as a character. I'll try to get more examples of when FC landings would be useful, but just with SH f-air, FC is already a strong option if it removes all punishable frames during landing.

 

[Nu~]

I think it should be mentioned that Fruit Cancel can also work like G&W's b-air cancel. For example, after doing a f-air at the apex of a short hop (not immediately), Pac-Man has a few options to avoid the landing lag he would normally experience:

1) Double jump - While this is a decent option and allows for more aerial followups, Pac-Man is still vulnerable to better aerials than his own or anti-airs.
2) Second aerial - A more offensive option, if you throw out another f-air, you'll have the same amount of landing lag as if you only did one anyway. Same risk, greater reward.
3) FC landing - this is the best option in this situation and any other situation like it. Because Pac-Man can act very quickly after a f-air, he can avoid the rest of the move penalizing him with landing lag by Fruit Cancelling. This landing is literally lagless, and can open up a variety of approach options and poke mixups.

FC landings also work well when executing a retreating f-air (for whatever reason, moving backwards while inputting a f-air sometimes still grants landing lag). FC is a much stronger technique than us Pac-Mains have been giving it credit for, and I personally think that this can be what makes Pac-Man excel as a character. I'll try to get more examples of when FC landings would be useful, but just with SH f-air, FC is already a strong option if it removes all punishable frames during landing.

Good to hear from you again man

By fruit canceling, you mean when we charge but immediately drop it before the fruit shows up right?

 

[makemesmellbad]

Good to hear from you again man

By fruit canceling, you mean when we charge but immediately drop it before the fruit shows up right?

It's good to be back in the Smash groove. I haven't had too much free time starting another year of school, but I have found another scene in this new town.
And yes, Fruit Cancelling is when you cancel the Bonus Fruit charge with shield. It's extremely useful to clean up the lag from those dead spaces in between aerials and landing that Pac-Man has quite a bit of.

 

[fromundaman]

I think it should be mentioned that Fruit Cancel can also work like G&W's b-air cancel. For example, after doing a f-air at the apex of a short hop (not immediately), Pac-Man has a few options to avoid the landing lag he would normally experience:

1) Double jump - While this is a decent option and allows for more aerial followups, Pac-Man is still vulnerable to better aerials than his own or anti-airs.
2) Second aerial - A more offensive option, if you throw out another f-air, you'll have the same amount of landing lag as if you only did one anyway. Same risk, greater reward.
3) FC landing - this is the best option in this situation and any other situation like it. Because Pac-Man can act very quickly after a f-air, he can avoid the rest of the move penalizing him with landing lag by Fruit Cancelling. This landing is literally lagless, and can open up a variety of approach options and poke mixups.

FC landings also work well when executing a retreating f-air (for whatever reason, moving backwards while inputting a f-air sometimes still grants landing lag). FC is a much stronger technique than us Pac-Mains have been giving it credit for, and I personally think that this can be what makes Pac-Man excel as a character. I'll try to get more examples of when FC landings would be useful, but just with SH f-air, FC is already a strong option if it removes all punishable frames during landing.

I actually use this quite a bit. HOWEVER, one thing to note:

When you FC against someone who knows the character's mechanics, it does leave a window while we from the hand raising animation to neutral where we are completely vulnerable as we have to go to neutral before we can shield. Unfortunately this window happens at the same time as we would normally transition from fruit in hand to the fruit throw animation.
What this means is that in the SH Fair situation, you HAVE to mix it up, or a FC landing essentially traps us on landing and permits someone who perfect shielded the Fair to punish for free.

This is not too much of a problem since it requires a lot of knowledge and great play from the opponent, and we can mix it up by throwing aerials, hydrant or DJ after the Fair, but it is good to note that this is possible.

 

[makemesmellbad]

I actually use this quite a bit. HOWEVER, one thing to note:

When you FC against someone who knows the character's mechanics, it does leave a window while we from the hand raising animation to neutral where we are completely vulnerable as we have to go to neutral before we can shield. Unfortunately this window happens at the same time as we would normally transition from fruit in hand to the fruit throw animation.
What this means is that in the SH Fair situation, you HAVE to mix it up, or a FC landing essentially traps us on landing and permits someone who perfect shielded the Fair to punish for free.

This is not too much of a problem since it requires a lot of knowledge and great play from the opponent, and we can mix it up by throwing aerials, hydrant or DJ after the Fair, but it is good to note that this is possible.

Yes, but this does open up a LOT more options as now we can more reliably weave in and out of a character's attack range (depending on the matchup). And although the FC does have its own amount of punishable frames, you are absolutely correct in that if we don't overuse this technique, this can be a very strong option against players who like to sit in shield. Nobody wants to block every single move we can throw out at them because then we can pop shield with Melon + Hydrant more easily or set up reliable grabs with Fruit coverage.
The point of the SHFC is to give us Pac-Mains more reliable options to pressure opponents in shield since we have such limited amounts of those options (granted, the ones we have now are extremely good in their own way). The FC landing is not as punishable as I'm interpreting from what you're saying, but like most "safe options" for any character, there are ways to get around it with prior knowledge to it. "Safe" in this case merely means that there are very little ways to get around this approach on reaction, and as a mid-range to long-range zoner, Pac-Man couldn't have a better close-range neutral with a safer f-air... in my opinion, lol.

 

[makemesmellbad]

Following up on my previous comment, the absolute BEST situations for FC landings almost always seem to be when transitioning to platforms on Battlefield, Smashville, Town and City, etc. Since Pac's full hop height is pretty standard, a full hop f-air into FC landing is lagless when landing on the platform. This could make Pac-Man's platform game better in that we now have more options to harass or retreat more reliably. We also cannot forget platform cancelling a f-air on such stages, as it's situational but very low-risk.

So, in all, Pac-Man's use of FC can lead to some seriously fast pressure (and keep in mind that if an opponent is hoarding your Fruit, FC becomes much easier (all you have to do is tap B)). Now we can open up SH f-air FC into jab, f-tilt (spaced), another SH f-air...
The options are limitless, but as Fromundaman stated, overusing this is not the way to go. Pac-Man is all about the mixups and zany cheese, and we have to keep it that way.

 

[Nu~]

This has to be some of the most useful tech I've seen in a while.

Thanks dude! This will definitely make Pac even more of a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Huge]

Awesome ideas, guys, but don't forget shorthop fair ---> trampoline as a mixup that goes through shields (and spotdodges, I believe). If anything, it'll help condition them into not shielding!

***edit: Don't forget to practice the right height for this! You'll experience lag if you hit the ground before trampolining, and you won't go through shields if you trampoline too early!

 

[Kaiyedy]

Hey guys, I found something recently. I don't know how useful it is, because it can be veeeryy situational. I recently shared this with Pepe, however I figured I should share it with you all.

I figured out a way to kill someone around 37%, depending on their weight. The thing is, you have to get right above them and they have to be near-ish the ledge (about halfway between the middle of a stage and the ledge) for it to kill.

It goes like this: Go to either omega duck hunt or omega onett (these are the best to do it the first time), push the character so they are by the ledge, but not on it, and do the key-catch.
If you're using a Mario cpu, you can just get above them and Z-drop to hydrant, and that should be 37%.
Then get above them (the easiest way to do this is to footstool) and proceed to do this one after the other: Z-drop - Hydrant - Side B (DON'T CURVE, JUST HOLD STRAIGHT) off the ledge, and they should fall right into your side B and die.

If we can find a way to force this we can kill at 37%. Help?

 

[Nu~]

We could condition them into it by continuously doing F-air -> FC. Then we mix it up with this.

We have to get better at catching with an aerial immediately after a z drop

Hell, we can always z drop-> hydrant -> recatch fruit + throw it down on opponents who shield. This should be enough to break a shield and force them to respect our z drops.

 

[makemesmellbad]

Force everyone to respect z-drops by breaking shields with everything. Mash all of the buttons at once, then actually break your opponent's shield button by assaulting them. (Or we could just use Keys and Melons in-game).

 

[Kaiyedy]

Question: Does anyone know which fruit does the most sheild damage?

 

[makemesmellbad]

Question: Does anyone know which fruit does the most sheild damage?

Melon
Unless you count the multiple hits from Galaxian

 

[BSP]

Question: Does anyone know which fruit does the most sheild damage?

None of them do any bonus shield damage as far as we know, so what you see on hit is what it does to shield. Galaxian multiple hits is best as makemesmellbad ssaid.

 

[Froggy]

Have any of you guys been doing double jab to grab? I do that when I'm at the ledge some times to get some stage control(works better with your opponent at higher percent). I did double jab to key a few times on for glory. At higher percents I'm wondering if that's a legit setup(its spacing dependent since it won't work if they're right in front of you)

 

[makemesmellbad]

Have any of you guys been doing double jab to grab? I do that when I'm at the ledge some times to get some stage control(works better with your opponent at higher percent). I did double jab to key a few times on for glory. At higher percents I'm wondering if that's a legit setup(its spacing dependent since it won't work if they're right in front of you)

It's not a legit set up, but it does work like most grab set ups in the sense that the jabs give very little reaction time and usually bait out down DI and shield, and even if they spot dodge, Pac's grab does cover it, so the only option from there is a 3-frame escape, or a really quick jump. So, on certain characters, it is a legit set up, but it's not guaranteed on the entire cast.

 

[NimbusSpark]

Have any of you guys been doing double jab to grab? I do that when I'm at the ledge some times to get some stage control(works better with your opponent at higher percent). I did double jab to key a few times on for glory. At higher percents I'm wondering if that's a legit setup(its spacing dependent since it won't work if they're right in front of you)

In honesty, I am still prefering Double Jab > Trampoline in this case. Sure, the reward is lower when in compared to landing a grab, but seriously, Pac's grab isn't too rewarding anyway and it's just too risky to be used as a combo considering its terrible endlag. Besides, there are so many things Double Jab > Trampoline has in comparison to Double Jab > Grab.

- Trampoline comes out in Frame 1, whilst all of Pac's Grabs come out in Frame 12. Therefore, Trampoline is harder to punish during the interval between the second jab and the finishing move.
- Even if Trampoline whiffs due to its shorter range, it still provides the usage of stage control. Just remember to move away from the enemy after using the Trampoline to prevent them for punishing you easier.
- Trampoline, in a low percentage range, will actually provide more time to setup when compared to Back-Throwing someone away after grabbing them.
- Trampoline is easier to perform due to not requiring you to wait a while after pressing your Standard Attack button, unlike Grab, which does.

I must agree though that in some cases Double Jab > Grab is better, such as trying to do a Down-Throw combo against those whom are not used to teching it, or as a desperate way to try and 'kill confirm' at high percents with Back-Throw, but Double Jab > Trampoline is just so much more consistent in comparison.

 

[Kaiyedy]

I always have trouble with Double Jab to Grab, because the Z button always registers as another A input or something. Anyways, it just finishes the Jab combo.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

goddamn i just joined and this is my second stupid or redundant thing I've said yet, but if it hasnt been mentioned, whoo-hoo! but pacman's key is easily caught using an airdodge after hitting it off the stage, it always goes down diagonally , so if you are quick to catch it, you can get a large amount of damage racked up with some quick z-dropping and get an easy kill with a hydrant along with the key at a higher percentage

 

[Nu~]

goddamn i just joined and this is my second stupid or redundant thing I've said yet, but if it hasnt been mentioned, whoo-hoo! but pacman's key is easily caught using an airdodge after hitting it off the stage, it always goes down diagonally , so if you are quick to catch it, you can get a large amount of damage racked up with some quick z-dropping and get an easy kill with a hydrant along with the key at a higher percentage

Yeah, we know already lol. It's cool though, this board moves fast

 

[Revibe]

goddamn i just joined and this is my second stupid or redundant thing I've said yet, but if it hasnt been mentioned, whoo-hoo! but pacman's key is easily caught using an airdodge after hitting it off the stage, it always goes down diagonally , so if you are quick to catch it, you can get a large amount of damage racked up with some quick z-dropping and get an easy kill with a hydrant along with the key at a higher percentage

Unrelated Chatter:
EASILY!?!?! PEACH JUST PICKS VEGGIES OFF THE FLOOR BUT IF PACMAN HAS TO BOUNCE IT OFF THE }FUTN STAGE...............................................................................EAsilly~.nope

 

[Revibe]

Yeah, we know already lol. It's cool though, this board moves fast

[(?-?)] Actually, I don't have any good highlights from this thread either because it goes so fast.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

I can't tell if the guy above is being sarcastic, but i could attempt to be helpful... I guess... Im not sure if Im the only person who does this, but if i see a person spamming (Im looking at for glory links) but i place the hydrant down and crouch, just so if i get hit by the hydrant, i wont get launched, plus, the projectiles will be stopped...
Did i say something smart?

 

[Revibe]

I can't tell if the guy above is being sarcastic, but i could attempt to be helpful... I guess... Im not sure if Im the only person who does this, but if i see a person spamming (Im looking at for glory links) but i place the hydrant down and crouch, just so if i get hit by the hydrant, i wont get launched, plus, the projectiles will be stopped...
Did i say something smart?

I was just being loud. (I know I didn't have to post that as a response, but I was bored and posted my initial reaction anyway, with a drop of comical caps-lock. Sorry you had to see that.

Anyway, Yes the hydrant is good at spam blocking. Actually, these guys usually have it all figured out as well. Have any questions, or interests finding a new technique?

 

[Norkas]

I am currently thinking about the best way to punish a shieldbreak. Z-dropping combined with hydrant dropping can have pretty good shield pressure if used correctly, especially with the key because it launches the hydrant after landing. If the opponent shields a dropped key, these three hits can break shields pretty good.
I think there might be a setup using the trampoline and a footstool to force your opponent into freefall if you break his shield near the ledge and have time to set it up. However I wasn't successful yet.
I think this might be useful if your opponent starts shielding to much. Now I try to combine all possible footstool setups and possibilities to get the trampoline ready in time.
So has anyone of you good and fast footstool setups or even a consistent way to perform this.
I really hope we are able to figure something out, this might be huge.

Edit: If you break the shield using the key or melon and your opponent stands right next to the ledge, you can place the trampoline under the ledge sweetspot it, fastfall back on the trampoline, fall on it again and sweetspot the ledge again. Then do a rollup and Z-drop the fruit on your opponent and combo into footstool. With perfect timing this seems to work consistent, but it it needs more testing to improve.

Double Edit: You can place the hydrant to let the water push your opponent to the ledge and apparently this seems to work at any percentages. Guess this pretty much means shieldbreak = kill.

 

[Nu~]

I think we should strive to start every match with either a galaxian or key. Both give us easy hydrant launches and the ability to easily pressure shields.
There are key differences though.

Galaxian is what I like to call the "Advantage Fruit" because as soon as it lands, you go into a crazy advantage state. High damage combos and possible kill confirms.

Meanwhile, the key gives you a powerful shield brake option and highly damaging footstool combos while scaring the hell out of your opponent.

I've said it before, but we all need to practice z drop aerials.

 

[Froggy]

What is the best way to punish someone hanging from the ledge without invincibility. Is run off bair the best we can do?

 

[Kaiyedy]

What is the best way to punish someone hanging from the ledge without invincibility. Is run off bair the best we can do?

I'd say either a quick hydrant drop, a fruit (bell/apple/galaxian), or curling side b to the ledge (jump in the air and side be so you snap to the ledge. If your opponent is not expecting it then you can stage spike them. To top it off unless they punish you before your side b activates you get the super armor from the attack plus ledge invincibility).

 

[Kaiyedy]

Also someone from the Pac-Man Main's subreddit found something interesting that I thought you guys might want to have a look at. apparently if you throw a caught bell upwards next to the ledge and throw someone into it, it will spike them. If this is true then I was thinking about incorporating DITCIT into it to snag earlier kills? The video he made isn't the best but it's all we got so far.

 

[Revibe]

What is the best way to punish someone hanging from the ledge without invincibility. Is run off bair the best we can do?

It might not be the best way, but it is worth-while. If you are spaced accordingly, and have the bell charged and get them when they are hanging on the ledge, they bounce off still in the 'freeze' but they still fall until the launch takes place.

I caught a wall jumper at middle-ish percent with a bell once, I wish I saved the video. Was funny to watch him in stun yet falling. Yes it is technically a sweet spot.

 

[Revibe]

Edit: If you break the shield using the key or melon and your opponent stands right next to the ledge, you can place the trampoline under the ledge sweetspot it, fastfall back on the trampoline, fall on it again and sweetspot the ledge again. Then do a rollup and Z-drop the fruit on your opponent and combo into footstool. With perfect timing this seems to work consistent, but it it needs more testing to improve.

Double Edit: You can place the hydrant to let the water push your opponent to the ledge and apparently this seems to work at any percentages. Guess this pretty much means shieldbreak = kill.

What do you mean by sweetspotting the ledge, with a trampoline?

Also, yes! Shield Break = K.O.
... huh~

 

[BSP]

What is the best way to punish someone hanging from the ledge without invincibility. Is run off bair the best we can do?

Edit: I'm assuming you're talking regrabs.

It depends. If I were you, I'd go through the characters that Blinky, Clyde, and Pinky can hit when grabbing a ledge. Off the top of my head, I know they can hit Mario and Villager and will whiff on Falcon.

If our ghosts can't hit, I think run off Bair is our best bet unless you've got a bell ready to combo into side B.

If you're talking about them hanging there for long periods, I'd go for ledge trump -> Bair.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

What is the best way to punish someone hanging from the ledge without invincibility. Is run off bair the best we can do?

Run-off B-Air is good for that, but D-Smash hits on the ledge, and some fruits hit too, i use the apple or the bell, the bell mainly for a side b combo... (i didnt steal this from BSP whatchu talkin about) but i feel the most reliable of all of these is the run-oof Bair. (although im partial for N-Air, and even the key since i like Z-Drop combos).

 

[Froggy]

Edit: I'm assuming you're talking regrabs.

It depends. If I were you, I'd go through the characters that Blinky, Clyde, and Pinky can hit when grabbing a ledge. Off the top of my head, I know they can hit Mario and Villager and will whiff on Falcon.

We should totally compile a list about what characters Fsmash or down smash will or will not hit when regrabbing the ledge. I'm sick of watching Fox or Diddy players trump characters and then a simple D-smash kill once they regrab the ledge.