#HBC | Dark Horse
Mach-Hommy x Murakami
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Osama bin Laden is dead!
- Thread starter Isatis
- Start date
I take that to mean that it depends on whether or not bin Laden really believed in what he was doing, if he really thought that what he was doing was necessary, that, for example, more lives in the Middle East would be lost due to American greed and imperialism if no one took action, and therefore the lives lost in the process would be considered collateral damage. Or, if he was making a power grab for his organization and simply using language that spoke to the anger and outrage of people who suffered under the effects of U.S. imperialism, while he genuinely cared not for their cause. The first reason would be considered by some to be more honorable than the second.
Macmaster4k2
Smash Rookie
Its all perspective, there is no real wrong or right in this world, its all human conceptions. Anyways, i see it as another senseless killing. It only will cause more hatred in this world and only provokes more killings.
"Senseless" would be a store clerk who gets shot in a gas station robbery, a family of four that is killed by a drunk driver, a man murdered in a bar room brawl.
Killing a terrorist responsible for intentionally murdering thousands upon thousands of civilians does not fit the bill for "senseless" by any stretch of the imagination.
Macmaster4k2
Smash Rookie
Before i say anything else, let me clarify. I DO NOT support Osama in any way, he was a mass murderer in every way like Hitler BUT my point is, killing him wasn't the best way to approach to problem (in my opinion). I think by killing him, we lowered our own values to his own. he killed out of hatred, did we not do the same to him? its a vicious cycle that never ends, the U.S should of been the bigger man and taken him to international court where real justice could of been served. Interesting fact, Osama Bin Laden never took responsibility for 9/11. so how do we prove he did? Answer: going through the justice system where you got to prove he is guilty. Im not saying he didnt plan 9/11, I believe he did but i also believe in global equality, peace and justice.
Vinylic.
Woke?
I'd say it's true but i don't support the word "Terrorism".
Macmaster4k2
Smash Rookie
1. Thank you for sources
2. I still believe he should of been put to trial
3. somewhat irrelevant due to the fact that i stated that i believed he planned 9/11 and with your sources, it confirmed my belief
4. Whats your take on it? do you think it was right and that justice was upheld?
Aesir
Smash Master
capturing him would have been far more difficult. When it was clear they couldn't they did the next best thing.
Not really, that's like saying police were lowered to the criminals level when after murdering a bunch of people the criminal charges at a cop with a gun and gets killed. I doubt Bin Laden would have thrown his hands up when they charged in, unless it was to grab a gun/set off a boobytrap.
What lowered "your" own values was throwing wild street parties everywhere celebrating his death.
That's really pretty subjective.
But whatever let's not get into this before people start calling me Al-Gayda
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Actually, killing a man who isn't under US jurisdiction isn't justified.
We're America, we can do whatever we want
1. No problem!1. Thank you for sources
2. I still believe he should of been put to trial
3. somewhat irrelevant due to the fact that i stated that i believed he planned 9/11 and with your sources, it confirmed my belief
4. Whats your take on it? do you think it was right and that justice was upheld?
2. Fair enough.
Regarding my opinion, I think that in an ideal world, we wouldn't have to kill for justice, or at all, and that all problems could be solved in a more civil manner. However, since we don't live in an ideal world, I think that this was both necessary and just. The thing is, I think it would've been great if he'd been captured and put on trial and publicly humiliated for all the world to see (and by humiliated, I just mean that he would've been in custody/on trial/on TV). Barring that, the next best thing was to kill him, because unlike a police action, this was a military action, and a firefight had broken out, not to mention that he probably would have been difficult to capture (if he had access to a weapon, he surely would have started firing).
I'd rather not risk the lives of US troops in a firefight by telling them that they have to capture him alive; if they're in danger, they should be able to protect themselves, and that's exactly what they did. If Bin Laden was killed because of that, then so be it. Sure saves a lot of hassle in terms of court costs and time spent. Swift retribution for a lifetime of terrorist actions.
Truth.We're America, we can do whatever we want
Just make sure you don't lose the power. Man if America's power ever completely slips, they are going to have hell to pay from every country in the world teabagging them for revenge.
Pluvia
Hates Semicolons<br>;
Except for nukes Teran. Nukes stop countries from teabagging you.
There's more to power than nukes. I wasn't implying warfare wise with the teabagging.
I'd wager if he had a gun and looked like he was going to be captured, he would have killed himself.
Wait a second they killed an unarmed Bin Laden?
Sorry I haven't actually followed any of the news and last post seems to imply that.
Sorry I haven't actually followed any of the news and last post seems to imply that.
No, I don't think it has been revealed whether or not he was armed. We're just musing.
MK26
Smash Master
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/a...onflicting-stories-on-osama-bin-laden-s-death
apparently he was unarmed
apparently he was unarmed
See now that's just zero respect.
Not from a humanitarian point of view (I'm not famous for that), but honestly isn't he just logically 10million times more valuable alive?
I mean first you get to parade him in front of the American public, torture information out of him, then kill him.
Yeah I dunno this whole story smells funny.
Not from a humanitarian point of view (I'm not famous for that), but honestly isn't he just logically 10million times more valuable alive?
I mean first you get to parade him in front of the American public, torture information out of him, then kill him.
Yeah I dunno this whole story smells funny.
I think it's more complex than that.
Take this with a grain of salt, because obviously, I wasn't there nor have full details been released, but that is a very high-stress, high-risk, high-danger situation.
You're essentially running through a house at 1 am after having been fired upon by a courier, knowing that any of the two dozen people in the compound could be armed or have a bomb strapped to their chest, and you see bin Laden retreat into a room where there was apparently a weapons cache (mind you, this is probably all in complete darkness).
There's a lot of chaos, disorder, and danger in that type of situation, and quite honestly, it's very much a "shoot first, ask questions later" scenario unless you want to risk the life of every SEAL involved in the operation.
It's not as if they found him and all his cronies in a single room, asleep and unarmed. It was probably a room to room deal, lots of screaming, lots of flashlights and darkness, and the omnipresent danger of being shot at or blown up at any second.
Take this with a grain of salt, because obviously, I wasn't there nor have full details been released, but that is a very high-stress, high-risk, high-danger situation.
You're essentially running through a house at 1 am after having been fired upon by a courier, knowing that any of the two dozen people in the compound could be armed or have a bomb strapped to their chest, and you see bin Laden retreat into a room where there was apparently a weapons cache (mind you, this is probably all in complete darkness).
There's a lot of chaos, disorder, and danger in that type of situation, and quite honestly, it's very much a "shoot first, ask questions later" scenario unless you want to risk the life of every SEAL involved in the operation.
It's not as if they found him and all his cronies in a single room, asleep and unarmed. It was probably a room to room deal, lots of screaming, lots of flashlights and darkness, and the omnipresent danger of being shot at or blown up at any second.
The White House confirms that he was unarmed. It's also being reported that in an interview conducted by the Pakistani government with bin Laden's 12 year old daughter, she says that U.S. forces arrested her father first and then executed him in front of the family. Bin Laden lived with two male aides, who both had wives and children also living at the house. The U.S. and Pakistan are in disagreement whether or not bin Laden's 27 year old wife will be handed over to the U.S. for questioning. She was shot in the leg after she rushed the Navy SEALs in an attempt to defend her husband.
Edit: It's also being reported that no shots were fired at U.S. forces by anyone in the compound. This could explain why there were no U.S. casualties.
Edit: It's also being reported that no shots were fired at U.S. forces by anyone in the compound. This could explain why there were no U.S. casualties.
Pluvia
Hates Semicolons<br>;
If he was unarmed then it was just a revenge kill, rather than a necessary killing.
Super_Sonic8677
Smash Lord
Now THAT is dumb. No one shot at us, the head honcho was unarmed and we DIDN'T TAKE HIM IN?
.....
.....
MK26
Smash Master
again, in a dark house at 1 in the morning where anyone might have a bomb strapped to them, you probably want to get in and out as soon as possible.
Once again, it's easy to pass judgment, but let's try to avoid that. For some reason, people seem to love the opportunity to demonize military actions and tactical decisions; just because some of them are bad and/or wrong, doesn't mean all of them are. Moreover, there are conflicting reports between the US and Pakistani sides. I'm certainly not saying we should blindly trust the US government (I think history has shown us that on several occasions), but I would take the US government's word over Pakistan's any day (especially considering the serious allegations that top Pakistani officials alerted bin Laden, at least in the past, to US forces movements).
First of all, it was well within the US and DEVGRU's rules of engagement, as this article says:
"The legal justification for killing bin Laden comes partly from the rules of engagement under which SEAL Team 6 was operating. It was acting under the authority of the CIA, which has fewer restrictions than the military. But even under the US military's tighter rules, his killing could be legally justified as long as bin Laden was not attempting to surrender. The SEAL team operatives reported that he was unarmed, but resisted them.
Scott Silliman, an expert on national security law at Duke Law School, stated that in his opinion "Under any operable rules of engagement, the issue [of unjustifiable killing] does not raise itself, simply because he was resisting or there was the perception they [the SEAL operatives] were being put in danger.""
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2324024.html
Also, there were shots fired by Bin Laden's courier, with whom the US Special Forces returned fire:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110505/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden
Also, again, keep in mind the type of risks they faced; the woman referred to in this quote could very easily have had a bomb strapped to her chest:
"Another woman, believed to be bin Laden’s wife, was wounded in the leg when she rushed at members of the SEAL team."
http://www.nationaljournal.com/nationalsecurity/chambliss-has-questions-on-bin-laden-raid-20110505
Again, I'm not saying the decision was right or wrong (mostly because we honestly do not know enough at this point to conclusively say), but people are far too quick to jump at the throats of the guys who were on the ground.
First of all, it was well within the US and DEVGRU's rules of engagement, as this article says:
"The legal justification for killing bin Laden comes partly from the rules of engagement under which SEAL Team 6 was operating. It was acting under the authority of the CIA, which has fewer restrictions than the military. But even under the US military's tighter rules, his killing could be legally justified as long as bin Laden was not attempting to surrender. The SEAL team operatives reported that he was unarmed, but resisted them.
Scott Silliman, an expert on national security law at Duke Law School, stated that in his opinion "Under any operable rules of engagement, the issue [of unjustifiable killing] does not raise itself, simply because he was resisting or there was the perception they [the SEAL operatives] were being put in danger.""
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2324024.html
Also, there were shots fired by Bin Laden's courier, with whom the US Special Forces returned fire:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110505/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden
Also, again, keep in mind the type of risks they faced; the woman referred to in this quote could very easily have had a bomb strapped to her chest:
"Another woman, believed to be bin Laden’s wife, was wounded in the leg when she rushed at members of the SEAL team."
http://www.nationaljournal.com/nationalsecurity/chambliss-has-questions-on-bin-laden-raid-20110505
Again, I'm not saying the decision was right or wrong (mostly because we honestly do not know enough at this point to conclusively say), but people are far too quick to jump at the throats of the guys who were on the ground.
Pluvia
Hates Semicolons<br>;
The most ironic thing about this all is that both sides killed each other for their respective deities.
Both sides?
Pluvia
Hates Semicolons<br>;
Osama Bin Laden and the Navy SEAL team. While I'm not completely sure of Osama's reasons, I think it was mainly for Allah and his country, whereas the SEAL's proclaimed "For God and country" immediately after killing Osama. Out of all the things they could have said, out of all the reasons they could have chose, that was apparently the main reason they did it.
So I looked it up and, well, that was an... unfortunate choice of words by the SEAL commander
Super_Sonic8677
Smash Lord
All the world's wars have religion of one kind or another involved. I found that amusing.