Orbital Gate Assault: Is it that bad?

[warriorman222]

So, I've played Orbital Gate Assault. I like it. I know that's it's one of those "liberal stages", but even on the lists for 17 stages, it has almost never been considered, let alone chosen. Whenever I asked, nobody had an answer. Nobody even knew why it was banned.

.. Except one person who condemned it as a "random, chaotic and hazardous stage with a distracting background that's impossible to focus on, that forces you to SD at some point."

I don't think most of that is true. Hence the thread. The first purpose of the thread is show that OGA is far less toxic than it seems. The second would be to get people to consider it in a non superliberal ruleset, but that's unlikely so let's get started.

So, before you read the following, please read the Orbital gate Assault Stage Research thread. I will be referring to transitions based on those names, and it's good to know about the stage.

So, the stage isn't random. It goes in a set pattern, has set hazards to appear at certain timestamps, and everything loops infinitely. In fact, Player 2 can stand still and survive two loops then be too out of place to survive. With little effort, you can know where you ar eon the stage, what's next, and how long until the next transition.

Chaotic and hazardous? Distracting background? Impossible to focus on? Well, there's the explosion and Orbital Gate which I'll get into later. There is a 5%DPS damage on all the exhausts. And there;s 2 telegraphed missiles that do 10% and kills at 190%. Almost every transition is smooth, and the background is a constant black unless it is heralding the arrival of another. The only background distraction on the stage are the ones that help you.

Okay, now for the two issues that are the only things even remotely close to ban criteria in my eyes:

The Orbital Gate and exploding Aparoid Missile.

Orbital Gate. When the Aparoid Missile makes impact with the Gate, it causes an initial impact that locks out the right, then next time, the left wall, semi-spiking anyone, before it calms down and weakens from a 120% kill to a 150% one.
You can tech the wall, and you practically choose whether or not you want to get wall infinitied. So, in effect, this hazard takes away 1 banning aspect of wall when you tech them, and when you don't. In the case that you get hit, you can DI down and tech the Missile, or if you aren't good at teching, can slide off the missile and not go as far. Overall, this hazard isn't too bad, and only seems really bad until you look into it.

Before the Aparoid Missile explodes, 2 missiles hit the missile, heralding the inpending explosion. The 3rd blows up the missile and sends combatants flying for 0% and set KB, only to land on the 3 Arwings:

Well, theoretically it should. What usually ends up happening is people happen to be above SH height when the last missile explode, causing them to fall through, and likely be too shocked to jump in time and recover. This causes them either to die, or hit the tunnel floor which kills at 115%. This can be easily fixed by making sure you stay grounded. there, biggest problem of the stage solved.
Unfortunately, this means Little Mac and Fox get 20 seconds to pound you, and people who have bad tech timing can be Shiek faired into the Gate until they land one tech.

Besides, I myself have purposely avoided getting blown up, and can still recover with Little Mac. With ease. This may sound offensive, but bear with me: outside of a lack of stage knowledge(which is still your fault, but understandable), or an enemy offensive, you have no excuse for dying. But I know that it can be annoying to deal with, and without proper stage knowledge, you will DETEST this stage.

If you hit the tunnel bottom, that's kinda your fault. And what's the difference between falling and dying, or being intercepted by a hazard that kills extremely early? No difference, except that the latter lets you live longer... or may get you comboed into a kill move. All in all, the tunnel floor simply prevents dumb early SDs and let's people actually die earlier.

And in a game here slow play is complained about so much, how is this a bad thing? You either die earlier if they capitalize on your mistake, or die later if they go ahead and let you die later. It's like The Halberd's combo cannon and killer klaw combines, except non-discriminative and possible to completely ignore if you don't get gimped, an easy task because the blastzones are close.
Yes, you should only be focusing on your opponent, but most of these hazards are minor, and the major ones can actually be helpful to competitive play.


The stage doesn't benefit one single character of playstyle. It can go from taking a dump on Little Madc, to suddenly making him unstoppable. it can go from Villager's discipline center, to Killager's 15 seconds of hell. That may not seem competitive, but the point is that every character is capable of playing, and not royally screwed, unlike Little Mac on BF.

Any other serious problems on the stage? That way, I can cover them. Thanks for reading!

 

[xTheAscendedOnex]

I don't play OGA much to really have an opinion, outside of classic and All-Star mode. I think I might need to try a few 1v1's here to see it validity. You got me thinking. The stage can't really harm you unless you let it. Its definitely a beautiful stage and I do love me some Star Faix music. =3

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I have played quite a few matches on this stage, and I can say with some certainty that there is nothing here that trivializes or hinders competitive play. The skillset required is different but not inferior. It's a completely valid competitive stage, and one I'd love to see as a counterpick. It's just that if I introduce it as one at my locals, most of the regulars will just stop coming.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I will say that despite being the one to study the stage so much, I still feel slightly uncomfortable playing on this stage. I think it's mostly a lack of experience more than anything though.

That said, the stage can be tl;dr'd as "Pokefloats IN SPACE" with grabbable ledges. (Right there we have an improvement over Pokefloats.) The only hazard I'd even bother considering a threat is the force field around the Orbital Gate. The missiles are far too weak to worry about and the tunnel floor replaces one form of death with another so in my mind it's a wash.

I voted for legality, but I'll basically always vote for legality in these things unless it's, like, PAC-LAND or something. (God I hate that stage.)

 

[warriorman222]

Yeah, I agree with most of you. The only thing banning this stage is how weird it is to get used to. Sure, after a few matches you realize it becomes on the calmer side of counterpicks, but until people try out new things, it's going to stay banned and if it isn't, nobody will come even though the stage probably wouldn't get picked.

 

[Xermo]

Why do people insist on defending bad stage design.

 

[warriorman222]

Why do people insist on defending bad stage design.

Could you explain to me how the stage is badly designed? Where, when, and how? Or maybe, say some thing productive? Like telling me the actual issue so I can cover it? Nope? Okay.
So the stage has bad design, and apparently this is insisting on it, even though this is the second thread dedicated to defending one specific stage with almost no chance of being legal. When the first one I can remember was like a month ago, on Wrecking Crew.

Right


Serious talk: What's wrong with the stage? Could you actually explain it?

 

[kackamee]

Why do people insist on defending bad stage design.

What's your argument against it?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why do people insist on defending bad stage design.

Nice one-liner. Care to explain your incredible wisdom to someone who has played extensively on the stage as little mac and doesn't see the problem?

 

[Xermo]

-sarcasm-

Serious talk: What's wrong with the stage? Could you actually explain it?

I'm not directly referring to OGA when I say "bad stage design." I'm referring to multiple stages over the course of both 3ds and wii-u that people constantly attempt to defend simply because they can play on it well and can memorize what kills you at what time, how to avoid it, and subsequently how that makes the stage totally choreographed and able to be played around, but I'll actually discuss my points below this under the next quote.

What's your argument against it?

With this influx of newer players of the series, they're regressing backwards in terms of the advancement of stage meta.
OGA is another one of the "roller coaster" stages akin to Poke Floats as stated above; even worse so is that it requires even more player input to succeed in that one has to actively play the stage more than their opponent.

Firstly, there's stage size. The stage gives a lot of room to run around from opponents. One has no real incentive to approach when on the Great Fox, as it pretty much carries over the flaws from Corneria but mirrored (and larger). "But it only lasts 20 seconds" you may say, but that's 20 seconds of not approaching. Even on other portions of the stage, namely arwing portion 1 (after the first missile explosion), the stage is so wide that you put yourself in greater danger approaching (while the stage is tilting and moving mind you) if your opponent has good footing on an arwing. But blastzones being close totes make up for that, right.

Secondly, missiles. Not just the ones you ride, but the strays that fly in. Unlike halberd where the stage will completely tell you where and when it's going to attack, the missile is only heralded by the sight of the ones that appear in the background. At which point one will hit the rightmost part of the platform. "But you could just memorize when this will occur and avoid that section entirely," riiight. I should be forced to not utilize a portion of the stage because I risk taking damage, 10% or otherwise. "But Halberd does the same thing," wrong. Halberd leaves all of it's areas on the deck open until a hazard might spawn, even then you know to shield because of how slow the attack will come out. Orbital Gate will always damage a certain spot with little time to react, aka don't be there.
As for the missiles you ride, they have two glaring flaws: platform layout and the damage factor. It has a tri-platform layout with the uppermost extending to the front of the missile. The problem here is that the 3rd platform, the bottom one, is camp-able and safe, similar to pilot wings. With it being solid, all you have to do is crouch and punish an approach.
As for damage there's the gate wall and the fire. OP gave damage outputs / kill percents and pretty much said "lol just tech or di and you'll live." That isn't the only issue though. The problem boils down to "don't be too far to the left or right and you won't get hit." Also when actively maneuvering the stage, why should one take damage just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (Referring to both the exhaust and walls)? It's Brawl Norfair all over again, but at least then all the hazards we're completely visible.

Third, arwings (and stage transition). Don't want to confront the enemy? Rest on an arwing. For the most part they'll carry you around the missile and G. Fox at a good height where attacks from below will miss. When you arrive on the tri-wing portion, you get punished for not being at ground level? lol. The platforms don't even solidify immediately, so once again it's a matter of being stage-conscious and being in the right place. "But you lost that stock because I outplayed you on the stage, it's your fault," k.
Again, the tilting is another problem. People already ***** about Lylat, here it's even worse because you can die by a stage tilt if you're at the wrong place at the wrong time while recovering. By arwing portion 2, they're flying around sporadically for a bit before settling down. The center arwing brings you back to the blastzone; instinctive reaction will tell one to move to a different arwing, but this is the stage forcing you into disadvantageous positions, namely aerial. Stay back, you risk dying, move forward, you risk an easy shield punish; it's like a moving walkoff for these few seconds.
As for the transitions, yes, they are indeed distracting, intrusive, etc. Not everyone is immune to motion sickness, tunnel vision exists, etc, etc. Monitoring your opponent('s) movements during most of these transitions are difficult until the ships fly by the dark space.

2/3 of the stage relies on navigating it moreso than fighting your enemy. We tried this with Rainbow Ride / Cruise, and that stage didn't damage you for playing on it. Smash 4 is definitely not the game where we should be re-experimenting with stages that are even at-a-glance bad to play on.

Of course, you all have heard all this before so you'll just refute these points anyway.

Nice one-liner. Care to explain your incredible wisdom to someone who has played extensively on the stage as little mac and doesn't see the problem?

That's cool. I have also advocated for Fourside's legality as a Ness main. We're kindred spirits you and I.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm not directly referring to OGA when I say "bad stage design." I'm referring to multiple stages over the course of both 3ds and wii-u that people constantly attempt to defend simply because they can play on it well and can memorize what kills you at what time, how to avoid it, and subsequently how that makes the stage totally choreographed and able to be played around, but I'll actually discuss my points below this under the next quote.

See, the problem is, when you admit that everything in the stage is completely choreographed, all that's left is potentially broken elements. And you don't seem to list many of those. You just bring up things that happen, as if that's a problem on its own.

With this influx of newer players of the series, they're regressing backwards in terms of the advancement of stage meta.
OGA is another one of the "roller coaster" stages akin to Poke Floats as stated above; even worse so is that it requires even more player input to succeed in that one has to actively play the stage more than their opponent.

See, that's just not true. Once both players understand the stage, it's the same as dealing with basically any other stage. The stage will never kill an aware, knowledgeable opponent. Once both players are at that stage, you're not fighting the stage. You're fighting your opponent. The excuse of "fighting the stage" only applies when the stage itself is somehow random, or if you can win effectively without engaging your opponent.

Firstly, there's stage size. The stage gives a lot of room to run around from opponents. One has no real incentive to approach when on the Great Fox, as it pretty much carries over the flaws from Corneria but mirrored (and larger). "But it only lasts 20 seconds" you may say, but that's 20 seconds of not approaching.

I have no idea how this is supposed to work. The lowest part of the stage is the center, which means that in order to run away to the sides, you put yourself in a disadvantaged position (on a slant above your opponent is awful, particularly up on that fin). I will gladly approach anyone who runs on that segment.

Secondly, missiles. Not just the ones you ride, but the strays that fly in. Unlike halberd where the stage will completely tell you where and when it's going to attack, the missile is only heralded by the sight of the ones that appear in the background. At which point one will hit the rightmost part of the platform. "But you could just memorize when this will occur and avoid that section entirely," riiight. I should be forced to not utilize a portion of the stage because I risk taking damage, 10% or otherwise.

It's the same timing, same spacing, every single time. In fact, if we want to talk about competitive merit, Halberd's hazards are almost infinitely worse. Why? Two reasons - firstly, you can't avoid them as easily (it actually takes some effort to dodge the claw) and secondly, they home in on a player. A random player. Whether the stage is aiming for me or the opponent can make a difference in the match. On OGA, it's just there, and whether or not you're in its (pathetically weak, low-damage, low-knockback, barely-present) path is entirely up to you and your opponent. I didn't even notice it had a hitbox the first 2-3 times I played on the stage; I thought it was window dressing.

Also when actively maneuvering the stage, why should one take damage just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (Referring to both the exhaust and walls)?

Because it's part of the stage's design and completely avoidable. You need to show why any of this is uncompetitive. You think the stage is a stallfest? How about you make some videos and show it off?

2/3 of the stage relies on navigating it moreso than fighting your enemy. We tried this with Rainbow Ride / Cruise, and that stage didn't damage you for playing on it. Smash 4 is definitely not the game where we should be re-experimenting with stages that are even at-a-glance bad to play on.

Rainbow Cruise was an excellent stage in Brawl (I can't speak for Melee). It was a unique, interesting counterpick that forced players to adapt to their surroundings, and it was completely uncontroversial right up until people got it in their heads that Metaknight was completely broken there. Oh, sure, he blew up quite a few high tiers (Olimar, Falco, and ICs all hated it, although quite a few other characters had better-than-average win records against MK there), but it wasn't quite as stellar as you might think for him. And without Metaknight, the stage simply had nothing wrong with it. It was a completely legitimate stage which, in this game, almost certainly would be a no-brainer counterpick. Rainbow Cruise is not a good example for "see how this type of stage design is trivially broken?"

Of course, you all have heard all this before so you'll just refute these points anyway.

Yeah, and I've actually played on the stage. These complaints you make either don't come to bear or are based on a lack of knowledge and understanding of the stage. It's not inherently broken design. It's not uncompetitive. It works.

 

[warriorman222]

With this influx of newer players of the series, they're regressing backwards in terms of the advancement of stage meta. Define "advancement of stage meta".

OGA is another one of the "roller coaster" stages akin to Poke Floats as stated above; even worse so is that it requires even more player input to succeed in that one has to actively play the stage more than their opponent.
You just admitted that the stage is non-random and the same, over and over. Hence, now all I need to do is show that what isn't broken, isn't broken. Wait! I don't evn need to do that. I read your post and realize that all I need to do is show you that all these situations you bring up are not good ideas.
Firstly, there's stage size. The stage gives a lot of room to run around from opponents. One has no real incentive to approach when on the Great Fox, as it pretty much carries over the flaws from Corneria but mirrored (and larger).
And, it's slightly short than FD, which isn't a problem because it's wide: it's a problem because it's flat. You can easily approach with little problem whatsoever. If you were trying to run and are forced to the ledge, you have no options at the right ledge(The gun is not a platform), and at the eleft, your other option is to retreat to the exhaust, and now you're taking 5% a second, and they can cover all your options unless they royally screw up.

"But it only lasts 20 seconds" you may say, but that's 20 seconds of not approaching. Even on other portions of the stage, namely arwing portion 1 (after the first missile explosion), the stage is so wide that you put yourself in greater danger approaching (while the stage is tilting and moving mind you) if your opponent has good footing on an arwing. But blastzones being close totes make up for that, right.
With the way you're sentencing this, I don't even want to respond. But I should, so I will:
6 minutes in a match. this will appear about 2 times That's.... 11% of the match being a little slower. Not not approaching, just slower. A little. Remember that this is an incline so they can't stuff approaches with projectiles. There's a reason people call the walkoff on Yoshi's Island the worst place to be. As for the arwings, you'll have to jump off eevntually to get back onto the stage, and now you get to face thewrath of a seriously pissed opponent. Assuming they don't just use SH aerials to wear down the shield and stop punishes. Trust me, it works.

Secondly, missiles. Not just the ones you ride, but the strays that fly in. Unlike halberd where the stage will completely tell you where and when it's going to attack, the missile is only heralded by the sight of the ones that appear in the background. ... What? You're having trouble dodging a low ranged, constant hazard that always appears in the same spot, like 4-6 times a match? Solution: find the timestamps, and remember theme Unlike me, who forgot them or otherwise would tell you. If not , get a general timing. Then move one character space away. Congrajulations! For 1 second, you are now unable to use 10% of one Arwing/2.5% of one Aparoid Missile!
Compared the Halberd the also fine stage, which has hazards that randomly target one person at random times, kill faster and do more damage.
At which point one will hit the rightmost part of the platform. "But you could just memorize when this will occur and avoid that section entirely," riiight. I should be forced to not utilize a portion of the stage because I risk taking damage, 10% or otherwise. Entire section? Hold on there. It isn't an entire potion. It's one character space out of 15 at the very least, not counting the air or other arwings. you can stay at the very back of every ship, and never get hit by missiles.

"But Halberd does the same thing," wrong. Halberd leaves all of it's areas on the deck open until a hazard might spawn, even then you know to shield because of how slow the attack will come out. Orbital Gate will always damage a certain spot with little time to react, aka don't be there.
Always. Always? All the time? Or do you mean consistently? I'll assume the latter. Again, getting used to the stage let's you shield it on reaction. many of the problems of yours hinge not on lack of stage knowledge, but rather an abundance of stage unfamiliarity. You aren't used to it, even though you know about it. And I'm not blaming you for that. But imo that's not ban criteria. Halberd is worse: It doens't aim at a certain spot at a certain time: it aims at you, at a random time. Time to get frame trapped!

As for the missiles you ride, they have two glaring flaws: platform layout and the damage factor. It has a tri-platform layout with the uppermost extending to the front of the missile. The problem here is that the 3rd platform, the bottom one, is camp-able and safe, similar to pilot wings. With it being solid, all you have to do is crouch and punish an approach.
And you can mixup your approaches. No character is helpless in this situation. And for those few that have serious trouble with this stage, remember that there's a ledge to give you even more options. Or a mouth of yours that says: "Yeah, I choose to strike Orbital Gate Assault", worst comes to worst.
As for damage there's the gate wall and the fire. OP gave damage outputs / kill percents and pretty much said "lol just tech or di and you'll live." That isn't the only issue though. The problem boils down to "don't be too far to the left or right and you won't get hit." Also when actively maneuvering the stage, why should one take damage just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (Referring to both the exhaust and walls)?
The Exhaust is a possible anti-camp tool. The wall is a way to combo a stupid opponent. Also note that they're both avoidable and obvious that they hurt.
It's Brawl Norfair all over again, but at least then all the hazards we're completely visible. And now, guess what? They're clearly visible! A pinkish, pulsating barrier stopping a whole ship does not sound healthy, forgive me if it does. An orange missile looks BAD. And fire coming out of the back of a ship? THAT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD AT ALL!

Third, arwings (and stage transition). Don't want to confront the enemy? Rest on an arwing. For the most part they'll carry you around the missile and G. Fox at a good height where attacks from below will miss.
Ever tries those SH uairs. They can't do anything about those. Sharking works on the Arwings. If you mean while the G. Fox is still there, they can still space aerials and not get punished, since they can fastfall at no cost, while you have only horizontal movement.

When you arrive on the tri-wing portion, you get punished for not being at ground level? lol. The platforms don't even solidify immediately, so once again it's a matter of being stage-conscious and being in the right place. "But you lost that stock because I outplayed you on the stage, it's your fault," k. Being stage conscious and at the right place. this is something good. You shouldn't be able to win while ignoring the properties of any stage... Let alone a transforming one.

Again, the tilting is another problem. People already ***** about Lylat, here it's even worse because you can die by a stage tilt if you're at the wrong place at the wrong time while recovering. By arwing portion 2, they're flying around sporadically for a bit before settling down. Sporadically. As in the back going the the front, and the other two moving one back and spreading out to make space for the back. It's slow too.

The center arwing brings you back to the blastzone; instinctive reaction will tell one to move to a different arwing, but this is the stage forcing you into disadvantageous positions, namely aerial. Stay back, you risk dying, move forward, you risk an easy shield punish; it's like a moving walkoff for these few seconds.
No. Just no. You can fastfall, and end up back into neutral after under a second. Also, the opponent suffers from thai too, and if your distraction theories are correct, then you have a free trip back on stage
As for the transitions, yes, they are indeed distracting, intrusive, etc. Not everyone is immune to motion sickness, tunnel vision exists, etc, etc. Monitoring your opponent('s) movements during most of these transitions are difficult until the ships fly by the dark space. Solution: play the damn stage. Play it, in 1v1, no items, no cheating CPUs, witha friend, maybe a CPU, and try and focus. It isn't as hardas you say it is. I'm immune to motion sickness so I may not be one to speak, but I'm quite ADHD and I play on this stage fine.

2/3 of the stage relies on navigating it moreso than fighting your enemy. Not really. If you're running away, you get to navigate it too. it's a pain to camp in. And just in case you use the argument of "Slow character's have more trouble", that's what stage striking and counterpicking is for. When people say this stage will destroy the meta(not you), they always seem to forget that you can counterpick it.

We tried this with Rainbow Ride / Cruise, and that stage didn't damage you for playing on it. Smash 4 is definitely not the game where we should be re-experimenting with stages that are even at-a-glance bad to play on. So basically, a stage seems bad? Ban it! A stage moves around? Ban it! By that logic, Castle Siege and Lylat should have never been and should never be legal.
And this isn't the same. This stage doesn't have moving blastzones. You can win with little movement on this stage, where Rainbow Cruise forces you to move. AlsomCruise was banned for one reason only: Meta Knight.

It was a perfectly fine counterpick that was never once controversial. Not until people realized that it was practically autowin for MK there. Guess what: it no longer is! He was nerfed to hell and back(not really)!

So Rainbow Cruise is fine anyways, making the entire point moot. Of course, a conservative player may disagree, but let's not start that.

Of course, you all have heard all this before so you'll just refute these points anyway.
And unlike you, I've played the stage extensively... With LITTLE MAC. I'm sorry, but if you think even half of these situations are problematic, get someone else, try them out yourself, and see how long it takes for them to adapt.
Then see who wins. Note how they start adapting right around the time they start getting used to the stage.

Besides, I have to refute these. This is my thread, and I fee; I should be defending my most favorite stage in the series, when no-one else has. Not even once.

Look, if you're going to argue, could you cut down on the sarcasm? And I'm sorry for my own bout of sarcasm above.

 

[FullMoon]

Personally I think this stage is a bit too unstable, so as to say, to be competitive. With stuff blowing up all the time and the transitions and just everything going on it kinda distract from the actual fight.

It's probably tied with Kalos as the best stage for casual play though, god damn is this stage crazy fun.

 

[Xermo]

See, the problem is, when you admit that everything in the stage is completely choreographed, all that's left is potentially broken elements. And you don't seem to list many of those. You just bring up things that happen, as if that's a problem on its own.

For my purpose, the things that happen are the problem. I'm not sure what you've read, but I certainly listed some broken elements in there.

See, that's just not true. Once both players understand the stage, it's the same as dealing with basically any other stage. The stage will never kill an aware, knowledgeable opponent. Once both players are at that stage, you're not fighting the stage. You're fighting your opponent. The excuse of "fighting the stage" only applies when the stage itself is somehow random, or if you can win effectively without engaging your opponent.

There are people who still don't understand how duck hunt works. As if with the legalization of OGA, people are suddenly going to be able to account for every single quirk and avoid it on a whim. Also, Ride / Cruise kills you for not engaging, PS2 kills you for not engaging, Norfair / Brinstar kills for not engaging, Halberd can kill for not engaging; these were all legal at one point in time, and even then games were / are decided by being hit by a completely choreographed event. It's still fighting the stage.

I have no idea how this is supposed to work. The lowest part of the stage is the center, which means that in order to run away to the sides, you put yourself in a disadvantaged position (on a slant above your opponent is awful, particularly up on that fin). I will gladly approach anyone who runs on that segment.

*Player spawns on fin* Run left, sit on engine, wait for opponent to do something.
*Player spawns on nose* Sit still, wait for opponent, shield projectiles / attacks, hop on arwing / missile that appears below.
Also, lol as if your choice to approach the opponent on the fin is a valid counter.

It's the same timing, same spacing, every single time. In fact, if we want to talk about competitive merit, Halberd's hazards are almost infinitely worse. Why? Two reasons - firstly, you can't avoid them as easily (it actually takes some effort to dodge the claw) and secondly, they home in on a player. A random player. Whether the stage is aiming for me or the opponent can make a difference in the match. On OGA, it's just there, and whether or not you're in its (pathetically weak, low-damage, low-knockback, barely-present) path is entirely up to you and your opponent. I didn't even notice it had a hitbox the first 2-3 times I played on the stage; I thought it was window dressing.

Combo Canon having the ability to decide the match? Yes. Both players having equal control on how to utilize it to their advantage? Very. The claw pauses before attacking. One can easily shield it, however disadvantageous this may leave them be. Conscious players are both wary of the claw; as if the opponent is going to rush and risk being killed themselves for attempting to attack the claw's target while they shield (even better if they perfect shield and punish in return). The laser gives the target player all the time in the world to either set an edge trap or leave it in a position that could benefit themselves.
Your observations are your own fault, not credible to refuting that the stage will still repeatedly damage areas of the map, of which will still leave a hit opponent vulnerable to attack.

Because it's part of the stage's design and completely avoidable. You need to show why any of this is uncompetitive. You think the stage is a stallfest? How about you make some videos and show it off?

tsk tsk, it is not my responsibility to show how noncompetitive a stage is. Every stage is competitive, every smash game is competitive; the literal aspect of trying to best your opponent makes it competitive. My job is to demonstrate the bad qualities of the stage and why it's not fit for tournament play, not competitive play. You should know this.
Also, no capture card sooooo...

Rainbow Cruise was an excellent stage in Brawl (I can't speak for Melee). It was a unique, interesting counterpick that forced players to adapt to their surroundings, and it was completely uncontroversial right up until people got it in their heads that Metaknight was completely broken there. Oh, sure, he blew up quite a few high tiers (Olimar, Falco, and ICs all hated it, although quite a few other characters had better-than-average win records against MK there), but it wasn't quite as stellar as you might think for him. And without Metaknight, the stage simply had nothing wrong with it. It was a completely legitimate stage which, in this game, almost certainly would be a no-brainer counterpick. Rainbow Cruise is not a good example for "see how this type of stage design is trivially broken?"

The intention of using Ride as an example was not to demonstrate that 'coaster stages are bad - Ride was great and I loved it - but to provide that such a stage with the included gimmick, minus the damaging hazards, was still eventually banned. Ride is infinitely superior to OGA.

Yeah, and I've actually played on the stage. These complaints you make either don't come to bear or are based on a lack of knowledge and understanding of the stage. It's not inherently broken design. It's not uncompetitive. It works.

I've played it too. Maybe not as extensively to the point where I'd be willing to make write-ups of every facet, but I've still played a great number of times on it. Also, once again, not trying to prove it's "uncompetitive," simply that it's bad in way not fit for tournament competition (good in the way that it's a great, 'fun' stage).

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Personally speaking, I detest this stage. I would rather have it be banned than for it to be legal.

However, with that said, I have played on it and when you have even a basic understanding of how the stage works, it's at least playable under competitive conditions and should still be considered before being, basically, permanently banned.

Plus if someone doesn't understand how the stage works, you could at least exploit that fact. Either they would have to strike the stage and use up one of their bans, or let you take them there if you actually did bother to research the stage.

 

[Ffamran]

Why do people insist on defending bad stage design.

What a waste of a year's work... At least it'll get played in FFAs. *everyone proceeds to hate this stage, competitive and otherwise*

And there's my unproductive post of the day; I don't own a Wii U, so I can't say anything about this stage other than it looks beautiful.

 

[Sean²]

A lot of crap going on in the background, screen shakes when the bombs explode, super easy to SD when fighting on the Arwings, camping on lower platforms of bombs, Great Fox (though short lived) is massive.

These are the things I dislike about this stage, especially in competitive play. It can be fun in FFA, but the effects are just too distracting to add as a counterpick.

 

[warriorman222]

A lot of crap going on in the background, screen shakes when the bombs explode, super easy to SD when fighting on the Arwings, camping on lower platforms of bombs, Great Fox (though short lived) is massive.

These are the things I dislike about this stage, especially in competitive play. It can be fun in FFA, but the effects are just too distracting to add as a counterpick.

... You clearly didn't read the OP.

The background is one of the calmest in the gae outside of the transition warnings like Aparoid Missile appearing in the background.Once you get past the about 4 explosions per transition, which aren't even in the background. I mentioned in the OP why SDIng on the Arwings is super-avoidable and super- your fault only(unless you get frame trapped by an enemy). Camping on the lower platforms is a big positional disadvantage especially when it blows up. And the Great Fox is about 10% of a match, and if you try and camp there, you're at a huge disadvantage (Being at a slant above your opponent is not good. Get under them, and they can turn the tables on you with a quick retreat to the engine. Plus, sthe side doesn't matter when you can't stop approaches with projectiles(Unless you're Yoshi, custom WFT or custom Shiek, and all of them except WFT have high endlag and massive range limitations)

Sorry to say that I think none of your problems are serious issues.

 

[Jams.]

I think the stage is perfectly competitive and allows for some cool gameplay options when played optimally. Looking at it in detail, there's really nothing uncompetitive (though different people have different standards). Nothing is random and the hazards aren't too intrusive (but can create interesting gameplay). I don't like how the missile and possibly the Great Fox encourage stalling, but it's bearable on a moving stage.

That said, this stage practically will never be fully embraced by the competitive community due to 2 complimentary factors which together give most people a poor impression of the stage. First, this stage is incredibly punishing if you don't understand it; second, this stage has a huge burden of knowledge. Combined, this means that someone playing on this stage their first time will have a very frustrating and unfun experience (which is why everyone's kneejerk reaction is "this stage sucks"). Heck, someone playing it their tenth time will probably have a frustrating, unfun experience. When you see two people who don't understand Orbital Gate Assault play on that stage, it is exactly as how that one player described it: a chaotic mess filled with SDs. To truly play well on OGA, you need to read about the mechanics (playing isn't enough for this stage) and play a significant number of games to understand how to use the mechanics and how it impacts your character. To put it positively, this stage has a lot of depth. Unfortunately, that won't make learning how to play on this stage any more pleasant. Even once someone masters this stage, there's no guarantee that they'll like it considering the stage creates some fairly unique gameplay. Spending a large amount of time learning such a frustrating stage and then finding out you still hate it after you're done sounds like a cruel punishment.

Realistically, I don't think players will ever support this stage regardless of how competitive it is.

 

[Sean²]

... You clearly didn't read the OP.

The background is one of the calmest in the gae outside of the transition warnings like Aparoid Missile appearing in the background.Once you get past the about 4 explosions per transition, which aren't even in the background. I mentioned in the OP why SDIng on the Arwings is super-avoidable and super- your fault only(unless you get frame trapped by an enemy). Camping on the lower platforms is a big positional disadvantage especially when it blows up. And the Great Fox is about 10% of a match, and if you try and camp there, you're at a huge disadvantage (Being at a slant above your opponent is not good. Get under them, and they can turn the tables on you with a quick retreat to the engine. Plus, sthe side doesn't matter when you can't stop approaches with projectiles(Unless you're Yoshi, custom WFT or custom Shiek, and all of them except WFT have high endlag and massive range limitations)

Sorry to say that I think none of your problems are serious issues.

I actually read the OP in its entirety to ensure I would be responding correctly. You asked if the stage is that bad.

I added my thoughts on what I believe is that bad. See the below quote:

A lot of crap going on in the background, screen shakes when the bombs explode, super easy to SD when fighting on the Arwings, camping on lower platforms of bombs, Great Fox (though short lived) is massive.

These are the things I dislike about this stage

I get extremely frustrated when playing this stage especially when I'm attempting to play well. I'm an advocate for other stages being legal, but I feel as if this one isn't a good choice.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I've gotten stuck behind the force field before in the second impact stop of the stage.

Considering I only played this stage when it came up in All-Star mode I don't don't remember what caused me to get stuck behind it. But I was stuck, could not get back, and ultimately died from it. That is was caused me to go from "on the fence" to "ban" when it comes to this stage.

 

[warriorman222]

I've gotten stuck behind the force field before in the second impact stop of the stage.

Considering I only played this stage when it came up in All-Star mode I don't don't remember what caused me to get stuck behind it. But I was stuck, could not get back, and ultimately died from it. That is was caused me to go from "on the fence" to "ban" when it comes to this stage.

Oh yeah. That happened to me once, but I found out that if you sweetspot the pointed ledge on the ship, you can roll back in. And only roll back in. Also you have to pretty much in front of the ship in the air to end up behind it. It was hard for me to replicate in actual matches since it's a bad position to go to.

 

[Staticky]

Why do people want to legalize this stage? Every legal competitive Smash stage has had a main platform to fight on. Giving characters like Little Mac a fair fight. If this stage were legal, Little Mac players would essentially be wasting a ban every match because this would have to be one of them. Also, characters with strong air moves would wreck on this stage. There are many sections that require precise jumping and alot of falling. I don't understand why people are pushing so hard for weird stages like this. Delfino and Skyworld are all we need in terms of crazy stages. This is just too much.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh yeah. That happened to me once, but I found out that if you sweetspot the pointed ledge on the ship, you can roll back in. And only roll back in. Also you have to pretty much in front of the ship in the air to end up behind it. It was hard for me to replicate in actual matches since it's a bad position to go to.

That's more or less a deathblow for the stage then, depending on how easy it is to get stuck behind that wall due to your opponent knocking you there. If its even remotely feasible + the fact that you have only one way back makes you super predictable and punish bait = no go.

And this is coming from the guy who did the stage research for Pirate Ship back in Brawl and wanted it to stay legal.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

I think this stage is kind of a test for skill and atention. It's a test for skill because you've got to be looking everywhere to see if the other platform is coming and jump in the right time to don't die, and keep your eye on the lasers. It's a test for attention because the stage has so much going on, and you can be distracted by the background. I'm neutral on the subject, but I think the stage can be legal if we do a little more research.

 

[warriorman222]

That's more or less a deathblow for the stage then, depending on how easy it is to get stuck behind that wall due to your opponent knocking you there. If its even remotely feasible + the fact that you have only one way back makes you super predictable and punish bait = no go.

And this is coming from the guy who did the stage research for Pirate Ship back in Brawl and wanted it to stay legal.

It's not realistically possible, and about 30-40 of the cast can sweetspot the ledge in time(Some of them took strict spacing, like Ganon and LM). It seems like while the Missile zooms up, there's some air effect preventing you from going so far to the right while airborne. It may be placebo, but I don't know. It's like Sakurai knew the stage would have issues, went out of his way to fix them, and essentially turned "Unwinnable By Design" situations into an "Unwinnable By Insanity" situations, except instead of unwinnable it's SDing.

 

[cot(θ)]

I've gotten stuck behind the force field before in the second impact stop of the stage.

Considering I only played this stage when it came up in All-Star mode I don't don't remember what caused me to get stuck behind it. But I was stuck, could not get back, and ultimately died from it. That is was caused me to go from "on the fence" to "ban" when it comes to this stage.

You don't get "stuck" behind the force field. You can come right back through it without taking any damage.

 

[RayNoire]

I think this stage is an example of the limits of players' patience when it comes to stages. Even though there isn't really randomness/heavy character bias/stupid early deaths here, so much attention has to be paid to the stage that it distracts the players from each other. Most people want the stage to matter as little as possible, hence the ubiquity of Smashville and the relative rarity of CPs.

Personally it kind of reminds me of Lylat, in that everyone hates it but technically it could be legal (and Lylat is). I wouldn't want to see it legalized though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You don't get "stuck" behind the force field. You can come right back through it without taking any damage.

Except I did in fact get stuck and could not return. warrior confirmed that it happened to him as well. Its a thing on this stage.

@Warrior: My issue is that after you sweetspot you must roll according to you if you end up in that situation. You have zero mix up options for your recovery if you end up there. If you MUST roll and your opponent knows that, you're going to eat a charged smash attack every time. And really all it takes is a single solid hit with an 45ish degree angle hitting you during the transition to hit you behind the wall and put you in that position.

Its not going to happen every match on the stage no, but it its common knowledge it would be feasible to force opponents behind the wall, at which point you take your free charged smash attack. That's too much reward for a situation like that.

 

[warriorman222]

Except I did in fact get stuck and could not return. warrior confirmed that it happened to him as well. Its a thing on this stage.

@Warrior: My issue is that after you sweetspot you must roll according to you if you end up in that situation. You have zero mix up options for your recovery if you end up there. If you MUST roll and your opponent knows that, you're going to eat a charged smash attack every time. And really all it takes is a single solid hit with an 45ish degree angle hitting you during the transition to hit you behind the wall and put you in that position.

Its not going to happen every match on the stage no, but it its common knowledge it would be feasible to force opponents behind the wall, at which point you take your free charged smash attack. That's too much reward for a situation like that.

I meant that if you touch the impact zone, you must sweetspot. This part is theorycraft as I'm unable to test it now, but you can probably jump or Up-B over if your character goes high enough. hell, if you can dot hat, you'd probably be able to airdodge over. But if you're one of those unlucky characters that must sweetspot the ledge. you might get hit into the wall(not through) when you roll. I think you can still tech it though.

I'll edit my post to confirm it later.

 

[MajorMajora]

I think this stage is an example of the limits of players' patience when it comes to stages. Even though there isn't really randomness/heavy character bias/stupid early deaths here, so much attention has to be paid to the stage that it distracts the players from each other. Most people want the stage to matter as little as possible, hence the ubiquity of Smashville and the relative rarity of CPs.

Personally it kind of reminds me of Lylat, in that everyone hates it but technically it could be legal (and Lylat is). I wouldn't want to see it legalized though.

Think of it this way: you may not want to learn the stage because doing so is hard. But someone else accomplishes this difficult task and uses it to best you in a match. I say he deserved the win because he was better than you in the sense that he learned the stage and you didn't.

Unless we're gonna start banning characters because people don't want to learn match ups.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I would honestly be disgusted if this stage started to be used in tournament. It is way too hectic and easy to SD on.

I honestly don't care about "you can memorize the patterns and best your opponent!", no please. I'd rather actually fight my opponent than have to constantly worry about the stage. I'm perplexed that this stage has people supporting it for legality in tournaments honestly. I can understand that people would like more stage diversity, but stages like this is grasping too far.

 

[RayNoire]

Think of it this way: you may not want to learn the stage because doing so is hard. But someone else accomplishes this difficult task and uses it to best you in a match. I say he deserved the win because he was better than you in the sense that he learned the stage and you didn't.

Unless we're gonna start banning characters because people don't want to learn match ups.

I understand that, but it depends what skill we want to test. Certainly if it becomes legal, I and anyone who wants to win will practice the stage. But most people find these stages dull because they limit character options (Lylat screws with autocancels so bad) and mess with a lot of the general aspects of the game (the ledge or offstage game, etc.). I know the game would be better to me if I didn't have to spend time practicing Castle Siege. It's a chore.

So the question is, will players tolerate this stage? There's already been some skepticism voiced in this thread.

 

[MajorMajora]

I would honestly be disgusted if this stage started to be used in tournament. It is way too hectic and easy to SD on.

I honestly don't care about "you can memorize the patterns and best your opponent!", no please. I'd rather actually fight my opponent than have to constantly worry about the stage. I'm perplexed that this stage has people supporting it for legality in tournaments honestly. I can understand that people would like more stage diversity, but stages like this is grasping too far.

And I want to play melee without worrying about trying to get the combination and timing for wave dashing into my muscle memory. But that's a thing. Seriously, you have to get better. The stage is not so impactful that it is more of an obstacle than your opponent, unless maybe you're really unfamiliar with it and you SD during a transition. Which, as it was, is possible on plenty of other stages that are legal.

Here's an analogy. When we were all starting out, we SD'd a lot. I know some people who've yet to grasp the concept of recovering with Up B, even. But we learned and we got better, and now SD'ing on battlefield is nothing but our fault. OSG it's the same deal. Rules are different, we have to learn it again, but out's nothing we haven't learned before.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

And I want to play melee without worrying about trying to get the combination and timing for wave dashing into my muscle memory. But that's a thing. Seriously, you have to get better. The stage is not so impactful that it is more of an obstacle than your opponent, unless maybe you're really unfamiliar with it and you SD during a transition. Which, as it was, is possible on plenty of other stages that are legal.

Here's an analogy. When we were all starting out, we SD'd a lot. I know some people who've yet to grasp the concept of recovering with Up B, even. But we learned and we got better, and now SD'ing on battlefield is nothing but our fault. OSG it's the same deal. Rules are different, we have to learn it again, but out's nothing we haven't learned before.

I'm debating if you're serious or not, to be quite frank. Wavedashing is worlds and games different from a stage that can kill you at any time. My point still stands and I still stand by it. A stage shouldn't be legal if it can kill you.

 

[cot(θ)]

I'm debating if you're serious or not, to be quite frank. Wavedashing is worlds and games different from a stage that can kill you at any time. My point still stands and I still stand by it. A stage shouldn't be legal if it can kill you.

If you seriously let a couple of salty losses shape your decision on a stage, I have no respect for your opinion.

F*cking humans.

 

[kackamee]

I'm debating if you're serious or not, to be quite frank. Wavedashing is worlds and games different from a stage that can kill you at any time. My point still stands and I still stand by it. A stage shouldn't be legal if it can kill you.

Randal kills lots of people in ͥMelee, should Yoshi's be banned?

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

If you seriously let a couple of salty losses shape your decision on a stage, I have no respect for your opinion.

F*cking humans.

I never said "a few salty losses made me want to ban the stage"

I said that if a stage can kill you, it shouldn't be legal. And I stand by that.

 

[Gawain]

I don't really understand the constant attempts to add more to the competitive stage list. If you want something in you better have a good enough reason to have it replace something already on the list. There is eventually a point where having too many stages is detracting from the game. There will be too much stage striking, the focus starts to switch more to stage knowledge than character knowledge, and most people aren't going to want to play on these stages to begin with to be perfectly honest. All they will become is picks for people attempting to cover for having less skill than their opponent, instead relying on the stage and hoping their opponent doesn't know it very well or hoping for a lucky kill on a transition or something.

Again, a good metric for these sorts of things is that you ought to have a good reason why this should replace a stage like Castle Siege or Delfino Plaza. Having a giant stage list isn't necessarily better.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Randal kills lots of people in ͥMelee, should Yoshi's be banned?

Comparing Randall in Melee to Orbital Gate Assault in Smash 4 is trivial and leagues apart.