Orbital Gate Assault: Is it that bad?

[erico9001]

Funny, most Shulk mains I know really like PS2. Some say the transformations come as naturally as the Arts.

As for OGA, I don't like it... and, well, that's it. As far as I can tell it's not really all that bad for competitive at this point. It seems like the kind of stage that will be later banned, but at this point I don't see why not. I just don't particularly like it.

Well I like to play friendly Shulk dittos there. Things always get kind of lolsy at the wind section, though. That's fine in friendlies, but in a tournament... eh? The much easier vertical kills might be annoying against other chars, but I'm not sure if it would really matter much. So... internal conflict and stuff. I still think the stage is worth trying out

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Funny, most Shulk mains I know really like PS2. Some say the transformations come as naturally as the Arts.

As for OGA, I don't like it... and, well, that's it. As far as I can tell it's not really all that bad for competitive at this point. It seems like the kind of stage that will be later banned, but at this point I don't see why not. I just don't particularly like it.

Yeah, I don't actually expect OGA to survive and become a mainstay for a variety of reasons. But I'll still argue in favor of it since it's not a bad stage by any means, just a very dynamic one.

Well I like to play friendly Shulk dittos there. Things always get kind of lolsy at the wind section, though. That's fine in friendlies, but in a tournament... eh? The much easier vertical kills might be annoying against other chars, but I'm not sure if it would really matter much. So... internal conflict and stuff. I still think the stage is worth trying out

...I wonder how high Jump Shulk can get in the Flying form. That would be interesting.

Then time how long it takes for him to fall back down.

 

[TastyCarcass]

lol. I like how my scene doesn't allow Delphino, Castle Seige or Halberd as counter picks but you guys are even considering the Smash 4 pokefloats equivalent

 

[Infinite901]

Yeah, I don't actually expect OGA to survive and become a mainstay for a variety of reasons. But I'll still argue in favor of it since it's not a bad stage by any means, just a very dynamic one.

...I wonder how high Jump Shulk can get in the Flying form. That would be interesting.

Then time how long it takes for him to fall back down.

Just imagine Jump Kirby.

lol. I like how my scene doesn't allow Delphino, Castle Seige or Halberd as counter picks but you guys are even considering the Smash 4 pokefloats equivalent

Your scene is lacking.

 

[MajorMajora]

lol. I like how my scene doesn't allow Delphino, Castle Seige or Halberd as counter picks but you guys are even considering the Smash 4 pokefloats equivalent

So I take it your japanese, or…?

But really, it all comes down to your political views of the smash 4 scene and your philosophy on smash. You've got your conservatives and your liberals. I highly doubt your scene is the median by any degree. Unless you're counting melee.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I heavily protested the decision to ban those stages. I think that Delphino is a great stage. I have a DK and I find that he's one of the best characters for taking advantage of the water.
I'm a Melee main and I prefer being able to pick stages based on their hitbox sizes. I think everyone else has a huge fear of losing a set over jank. I would invite those who made the decision to explain why, but I don't really care anyway, I understand why it wasn't chose. I just worry about travelling to tournaments and getting rinsed by anyone who picks them.

Still though, OGA doesn't resemble a competitive stage in the slightest. Stage hazards everywhere and the neutral is constantly ruined by the stage disappearing beneath your feet

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I heavily protested the decision to ban those stages. I think that Delphino is a great stage. I have a DK and I find that he's one of the best characters for taking advantage of the water.
I'm a Melee main and I prefer being able to pick stages based on their hitbox sizes. I think everyone else has a huge fear of losing a set over jank. I would invite those who made the decision to explain why, but I don't really care anyway, I understand why it wasn't chose. I just worry about travelling to tournaments and getting rinsed by anyone who picks them.

Still though, OGA doesn't resemble a competitive stage in the slightest. Stage hazards everywhere and the neutral is constantly ruined by the stage disappearing beneath your feet

There's like five total hitboxes across the entire loop, all of which are completly predictable. The aparoid missile flame has no knockback, the two missles are consistent and do 10% while failing to kill at high percents, and the wall doesn't kill above 100% if i remember right. Not exactly hazards everywhere

 

[Rikkhan]

has anyone tested jank on this stage? So far in like 1 hour of play I found some things.

- Some parts work like semi walkoffs, I killed pikachu at like 10% with falcon with just jabs
- Vertical killers can abuse the high parts of the stage, Rosalina can kill mario at like 25% on the great fox part with UAir, probably even less on the airwings when they are high.
- Sometimes your character gets stuck in the wall collision, taking a whoping 100% or even more, not enterely sure how this happens (luigi got stuck on a roll, falcon on a side B).
- there is a moment where if you get thrown out the ship before the ship crash into the wall, trying to get back into the ship will result in hitting the wall and this will spike you into your death.
- Character with B especials that result into freefall will had to be extremely careful because stage transitions will result into a SD,
for example mii brawler using upB(even on the ground) will enter free fall if the stage change.
- There some part where the stage will bounce back people when they fall.
- Several parts seem pretty good for camping.
- And obvious this stage is hell to characters with poor recovery, this stage especially demands good vertical recovery

 

[warriorman222]

has anyone tested jank on this stage? So far in like 1 hour of play I found some things. Just a question: what type of play? vs CPUs or opponents? vs CPUS, the problems become far more abusable and coem up far more often.

- Some parts work like semi walkoffs, I killed pikachu at like 10% with falcon with just jabs I can OHKO Pikachu on Smashville with almost any jab. And here, it only applies to moves with very high base knockback. In addition, temporary walkoffs like Delfino and Wuhu aren't banned most of the time. And this place doesn't have real walkoffs, but rather few-second long platforms that go closer to the blastline.
- Vertical killers can abuse the high parts of the stage, Rosalina can kill mario at like 25% on the great fox part with UAir, probably even less on the airwings when they are high. Rosalina can kill DK at 16% with uair on Halberd (Remember that video? Yeah.). Yes it can suck, but that's a thing that happens with Rosalina, less the fault of the stage since only she can abuse it to such a degree. And it's even worse on Halberd and a permanent part of the stage unlike here.
- Sometimes your character gets stuck in the wall collision, taking a whoping 100% or even more, not entirely sure how this happens (luigi got stuck on a roll, falcon on a side B). Could you show me this if possible? Never happened to me.
- there is a moment where if you get thrown out the ship before the ship crash into the wall, trying to get back into the ship will result in hitting the wall and this will spike you into your death. Sweetspot the ledge. Many characters can make it back, and it's hard to even get there.
- Character with B especials that result into freefall will had to be extremely careful because stage transitions will result into a SD,
for example mii brawler using upB(even on the ground) will enter free fall if the stage change. On exactly two transitions, at precise moments. In addition, you have to be a fast faller, and the enemy has to be not trying to punish you. Brawler is a very fast faller, and you're supposed to be hit by the explosion(it hits you upward and never kills and does 0%)
- There some part where the stage will bounce back people when they fall. What? Sorry, but could you say this more clearly?
- Several parts seem pretty good for camping. The stage isn't good for camping at all. The Great Fox's engines can damage you, if you try and put yourself into a good camping position on it. The bottom of the green ship can damage you with exhaust and is fall-through, meaning that they can get down there and force you to fight or jump back up. Jumping onto the Arwings means I can
- And obvious this stage is hell to characters with poor recovery, this stage especially demands good vertical recovery Not any more than any other stage. Hell, this stage needs far, far less recovery then any other stage, since you're a lot more ground based then you think.

Just responding.

 

[TastyCarcass]

There's like five total hitboxes across the entire loop, all of which are completly predictable. The aparoid missile flame has no knockback, the two missles are consistent and do 10% while failing to kill at high percents, and the wall doesn't kill above 100% if i remember right. Not exactly hazards everywhere

It doesn't matter if they're predictable, they're campable. It isn't possible to play like a normal competitive game on this stage at all

 

[Johnknight1]

How exactly is this even a discussion?

In most Smash 64 majors now Dreamland 64 is the only legal stage (and when it isn't, the other 2 are Peach's Castle and Congo Jungle).

In Melee the only legal stages are Battlefield, Final Destination, Dreamland 64, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story (not in teams), and Pokemon Stadium, the latter of which is now being banned in a few regions.

The changes in the stagelist to those very conservative stagelists has seen Melee and Smash 64 (and PM, which has a dev team that can and does create its' own neutral stages) has helped lead to unprecedented growth and higher levels of play.

So why is there a huge section of the Smash 4 competitive community set on being as scrubby as possible=???

Moving stages are a deterrent to skill, to attack, and to watch and enter tournaments.

Why are some of you set on following Brawl's stagelist (which only had moving stages due to them being effective against top tiers; Smash 4's moving stages don't do that) when Brawl is nowhere near as alive as these 3 other stages=???

It doesn't matter if they're predictable, they're campable. It isn't possible to play like a normal competitive game on this stage at all

Exactly. It leads to longer, campier, slower, and less enjoyable matches, and nobody wants that to actually wants to see people compete.

In a truly competitive environment in Smash, you need neutral stages that stay put where the players influence the results on said stages, not the stages. We also want excitement and action and quicker sets, which happen a lot more on still and appropriately sized stages like Battlefield rather than moving stages like Orbital Gate Assault or huge stages like Big Battlefield.

It really isn't that hard. If Smashers in 2006 and 2007 can understand this when the meta for 64 and Melee was awful, you all should be able to get that.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

How exactly is this even a discussion?

In most Smash 64 majors now Dreamland 64 is the only legal stage (and when it isn't, the other 2 are Peach's Castle and Congo Jungle).

In Melee the only legal stages are Battlefield, Final Destination, Dreamland 64, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story (not in teams), and Pokemon Stadium, the latter of which is now being banned in a few regions.

The changes in the stagelist to those very conservative stagelists has seen Melee and Smash 64 (and PM, which has a dev team that can and does create its' own neutral stages) has helped lead to unprecedented growth and higher levels of play.

So why is there a huge section of the Smash 4 competitive community set on being as scrubby as possible=???

Moving stages are a deterrent to skill, to attack, and to watch and enter tournaments.

Why are some of you set on following Brawl's stagelist (which only had moving stages due to them being effective against top tiers; Smash 4's moving stages don't do that) when Brawl is nowhere near as alive as these 3 other stages=???

Exactly. It leads to longer, campier, slower, and less enjoyable matches, and nobody wants that to actually wants to see people compete.

In a truly competitive environment in Smash, you need neutral stages that stay put where the players influence the results on said stages, not the stages. We also want excitement and action and quicker sets, which happen a lot more on still and appropriately sized stages like Battlefield rather than moving stages like Orbital Gate Assault or huge stages like Big Battlefield.

It really isn't that hard. If Smashers in 2006 and 2007 can understand this when the meta for 64 and Melee was awful, you all should be able to get that.

Oh thank you Sir John, for coming down to us commoners with you knowledge granted to you by the heavens on how to play Smash appropriately

First, the banning of stages and the growth of the Melee and Smash 64 scenes. Correlation does not equal causation. Where is the proof that the banning of those stages caused the growth in the scenes?

Second, why exactly are moving stages "scrubby?" You say it leads to longer, more boring matches, but you never explain how. On a stage like OGA, or hell, Skyloft or Delfino, the stage movements force players to react. Camping is suboptimal by definition on moving stages actually, because you're put at disadvantage when the stage moves.

Stages are a central part of the game. They are one of the most distinguising features, and understanding them can allow players to pull off special stage unique combos or traps, that could never be done on a static stage. Moving stages are a valid part of gameplay, one which outnumbers the completly static stages you say are inherently more competetive by a large margin

So, why? Why are these static, unmoving stages the central mecca od gameplay? I could counter with the fact that under your definition, only 2 stages would be legal, BF and FD, as even goddamn smashville has non static elements. I could also counter with the fact that you completly disregard the idea of stage knowledge being a worthwhile investment in player practice time, or how you believe that the fastest, most hype, most legitimate play only occurs on static stages, when a lot of crazy, insane, hype stuff occurs on moving stages too, like a Sheik player reading a Bowser's bad positioning on Delfino, and getting an insane early kill at like 30%, to name one example of many.

But the problem is, we look at Smash as a fighting game, and we think it should be me and you 1V1, or with our buddies if we're in doubles. We see the stage, and we do our best to pretend they don't exist at all except when we have to. It completly disregards the idea of what stage knowledge can bring to thetable and what makes smash unique.

Also, a digression, please don't use "neutral" when talking about stages. It's a misleading term, as it implies total balance. No stage is truely neutral

 

[TastyCarcass]

No stage is truly neutral, but some are more neutral than others. You try to explain to a Little Mac player that you're legalising Orbital Gate Assault. Pilot Wings was banned for less.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

No stage is truly neutral, but some are more neutral than others. You try to explain to a Little Mac player that you're legalising Orbital Gate Assault. Pilot Wings was banned for less.

Pilot wings was banned for promoting degnerate gameplay, as camping was piss easy. OGA is banned because it looks difficult, despite having few hazards, all of which are completely predictable. Neutrality is not a valid reason for stage selection. Stages are different and have different effects on gameplay and characters. A little mac player should be expected to know that Little Mac has crap recovery, and should know how to work around it. You can't ban a stage because Mac doesn't like it, otherwise you'd only have omega stages

 

[TastyCarcass]

A little mac player should be expected to know that Little Mac has crap recovery, and should know how to work around it. You can't ban a stage because Mac doesn't like it, otherwise you'd only have omega stages

The key word here is recovery. I wouldn't call it recovery if he is forced to be in the air where he is completely vulnerable at set moments throughout the stage. His opponent can simply play defensively until they know the stage is going to drop them, at which point he can take advantage of a vulnerable Little Mac.

See this is the thing. When a stage has that large of an advantage or disadvantage for certain characters, it is not competitively viable.

See: Why Kong Jungle is banned in Melee

 

[Omegaphoenix]

The key word here is recovery. I wouldn't call it recovery if he is forced to be in the air where he is completely vulnerable at set moments throughout the stage. His opponent can simply play defensively until they know the stage is going to drop them, at which point he can take advantage of a vulnerable Little Mac.

See this is the thing. When a stage has that large of an advantage or disadvantage for certain characters, it is not competitively viable.

See: Why Kong Jungle is banned in Melee

The only time a little mac player is forced into the air is the missle explosions. If a little mac played is forced into missing the arwing catches, he was outplayed. If the opponent attempts to dodge the explosion, then they must recover and are put at disadvantage.

The problem with your examples is you are using little mac. Little mac is extremly polarizing. He is strong on ground, but worthless in air. He is not at all representative for the other 50+ roster characters. One character with polarizing matchups shouldn't decide what stages are legal. We did the same with Meta Knight in Brawl and that just caused the rise of the Chain Grabbers.

 

[Rikkhan]

@ warriorman222 I tested vs CPUs but it doesnt matter, the points remain the same. The thing is there is way more chessy stuff in OGA than smashville.

About the brawler let me put a better example, you are on great fox, both you a your opennent has 120%, you do a side B on the ground (the dash attack), you hit the enemy, before the combo ends the stage changes, this will cancel the attack and will put you in free fall, the enemy uAir you killing you and ending the game.

About wall spike, not all characters can sweetspot the ledge easily, and even that you had to get back in the stage asap, the only option in which you wont hit the wall is roll, so the oponnent can easily punish you.

Dunno about the 100%+ wall combo, maybe has something about the speed and DI of the first hit, its not common to happen though.

About the bounce I dont how to say it better, there is a part of the stage in where you enter a tunnel, in this part if you fall the stage will bounce you back, its not game changer but it's something.

Other thing when you fight upside the airwings (frontal) there is some weird interaction between the character and the ground, I F-smashed pikachu at 85% with falcon, this normally would been KO but instead pikachu collided with the ground and saved its life.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ warriorman222 I tested vs CPUs but it doesnt matter, the points remain the same. The thing is there is way more chessy stuff in OGA than smashville.

And there's way more cheesy stuff on Smashville than on Final Destination. (Which is to say, more than zero since FD is completely static.) Your point?

About the bounce I dont how to say it better, there is a part of the stage in where you enter a tunnel, in this part if you fall the stage will bounce you back, its not game changer but it's something.

Ah, the tunnel. The floor there will kill Mario at 110-120%ish if memory serves. The walls and ceiling are not hitboxes, only the floor.

Other thing when you fight upside the airwings (frontal) there is some weird interaction between the character and the ground, I F-smashed pikachu at 85% with falcon, this normally would been KO but instead pikachu collided with the ground and saved its life.

This is probably a thing with sloped surfaces in general. I have similar issues whenever Yoshi's Island Melee shows up in Classic mode.

 

[Rikkhan]

And there's way more cheesy stuff on Smashville than on Final Destination. (Which is to say, more than zero since FD is completely static.) Your point?

mmm... maybe a lot of chessy stuff = bad stage?

 

[cot(θ)]

There is a real problem in this community with people not understanding the difference between "difficult" stages and "uncompetitive" stages.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I'm convinced that this is a joke thread at this point.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

mmm... maybe a lot of chessy stuff = bad stage?

But what counts as cheesy? What specific property of OGA makes it cheesy? What makes that specific property more cheesy than dying to Captain Falcon's rapid jab finisher at 13% on Smashville?

I'm not actually expecting you to answer any of that. My point is that calling a stage "cheesy" is ultimately meaningless because it means different things to different people. You need something more concrete than that.

Consider a hypothetical situation where someone is seriously proposing that Pyrosphere be made a legal stage and your argument is "it's cheesy." Whether it's true or not, it's not something you can have a meaningful debate over and the discussion will devolve into what counts as cheesy. Instead, you can say "Pyrosphere trivializes the player vs. player aspect we wish to promote in competitive Smash by letting Ridley join a player's side, turning a 1v1 fight into a 2v1 fight where the player allied with Ridley can simply hide behind him instead of engaging his opponent in combat, letting Ridley do the work for him." There we not only identify the key issue (Ridley) but also why it's a bad thing (it gives a player a powerful ally that can literally fight for them).

Can you do something similar for Orbital Gate Assault?

 

[Infinite901]

But what counts as cheesy? What specific property of OGA makes it cheesy? What makes that specific property more cheesy than dying to Captain Falcon's rapid jab finisher at 13% on Smashville?

I'm not actually expecting you to answer any of that. My point is that calling a stage "cheesy" is ultimately meaningless because it means different things to different people. You need something more concrete than that.

Consider a hypothetical situation where someone is seriously proposing that Pyrosphere be made a legal stage and your argument is "it's cheesy." Whether it's true or not, it's not something you can have a meaningful debate over and the discussion will devolve into what counts as cheesy. Instead, you can say "Pyrosphere trivializes the player vs. player aspect we wish to promote in competitive Smash by letting Ridley join a player's side, turning a 1v1 fight into a 2v1 fight where the player allied with Ridley can simply hide behind him instead of engaging his opponent in combat, letting Ridley do the work for him." There we not only identify the key issue (Ridley) but also why it's a bad thing (it gives a player a powerful ally that can literally fight for them).

Can you do something similar for Orbital Gate Assault?

This a thousand times over, people need to stop using "cheesy" and "jank" in their arguments and start giving legitimate reasons.

Personally I dislike OGA simply because the transformations aren't all that smooth or easy to deal with. They force you into the air and that seems to really disrupt fights, and, as much as I hate to say it, I do agree with Rikkhan on ONE thing - the auto-cancel freefall thing is kinda dumb. Additionally, the hitboxes on the Aparoid, while not particularly large, leave very little room to fight as they are in the center of the already small ground.

 

[warriorman222]

I'm convinced that this is a joke thread at this point.

In other words: Me disagreeing with you=joke.

Seriously dude? Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean that someone is joking if they do. Come on, at least the other dissenters are bringing up reasons, rather than using rude one-liners.

@ warriorman222

About the brawler let me put a better example, you are on great fox, both you a your opennent has 120%, you do a side B on the ground (the dash attack), you hit the enemy, before the combo ends the stage changes, this will cancel the attack and will put you in free fall, the enemy uAir you killing you and ending the game.

So basically if you use this one move within a 1-2 second time frame that pops up 3 times a match, while you and them are at high percent, against a character with a killing uair, and they hit you with it, and you don't take advantage of Mii brawler's 1st place airspeed and very high fastfall speed to get away... Also, using Brawler's Side-B at all. Specifically Side-B 1.

Uh, that seem far less likely than the Wuhu Island Ness Instakill. And it requires a lot more player error. And this is literally theorycraft.

"I tested vs CPUs but it doesnt matter, the points remain the same. The thing is there is way more chessy stuff in OGA than smashville."

How do you quote things

So anyways, it does matter. A lot of your supposed "cheese", like camping, Mii brawler thing, and "stuck-behind-the-gate all happen far more often when fighting CPUs. Also, define cheese. Seriously, what is a "cheesy" thing? Instead of doing that, you could point out the problems, show us how they are realistic(unlike the above) and tell us why they're bad. Like Paranoid said.

 

[TastyCarcass]

In other words: Me disagreeing with you=joke.

Seriously dude? Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean that someone is joking if they do. Come on, at least the other dissenters are bringing up reasons, rather than using rude one-liners.

I've brought up my points that the stage is campy, exploitable, dangerous and unplayable by certain characters and yet people still think it's a viable stage, so yeah I kind of do believe that this is a joke thread.

 

[warriorman222]

I've brought up my points that the stage is campy, exploitable, dangerous and unplayable by certain characters and yet people still think it's a viable stage, so yeah I kind of do believe that this is a joke thread.

That's not exactly a fair way to look at things. Do you really expect us to automatically side with you, just because you brought up reasons? So I'm going to look for them and respond accordingly:

First of all, I'ma guy who has done extensive testing on the stage with little mac, and I don't lose to campers. The stage is only exploitable against a person who does not know it against someone who does, and it becomes a lot less dangerous. Lastly, this isn't Smashville levels of bad for Little mac or other. It may be a hrd stage for him but he can still play fine on almost all the transitions.

And playing defensively until the stage drops you, only to take advantage of mac, isn't a viable strategy, because he can still fight back or run away. Or fast fall. or not get blown up and still recover. When the stage drops you, it's either by blowing you up and doing 0%, or allowing you to fastfall back on stage within half a second. 15 frames to hit Mac isn't much. Especially when he has rudimentary but existing air defense.

The other time when it blows you up, if you avoid the explosion, Little Mac will know, and can easily jump too. If you're playing defensively properly and actually staying away from him, there's no way you're reaching him in time unless you want to SD and not Up-B. Remember that using Little mac doesn't desstroy half your brain cells and they can react to you. At least not unless you're online.

Not to mention that almost every single "point" against this thread is all guesswork as this has never been seen or proven in a match before, except for the argument that "nobody likes it". Guess why? Because of all the fearmongering. Through guesswork. Yes, some stages are beyond redemption, but those are usually ones with a combination of walkoffs, caves of life, unbeatable camping, new win criteria, or bosses. Of course this one is going along with them despite having none of those.

And if you're calling something a joke because some people disagree with you, I honestly think you might need to change your attitude. One-liner insults have no justification.



Also, I'd like to mention: this thread isn't about making the stage legal. It's to show that it isn't as bad as it seems, then asking for more problems to address or attempt to address.
Then there's a poll asking whether or not it should be considered By considered, I mean tested. Pilotwings was tested and banned, and it's viewed as even worse than this stage. Every other liberal stage except this has been tested at some point. The poll shows it. The title shows it. in fact, some of the post shows it. And never was it implied or told that I want this stage legal, now, without testing.

But of course, every single person bar one, somehow assumes I mean that and I don't even know why. Not that I detest you or anything, but if you tried to tell me why it shouldn't be considered rather than automatically legalised, I'd know that my thread had accomplished something.

 

[Blue Warrior]

This stage seems like it's too polarizing and changes the gameplay too much.

I'm just a spectator, but I think if I happen to watch competitive matches that end up on OGA, most of the time someone is going to end up being salty over some transformation that screws everything up.

 

[Spark31]

The problem is that the stage won't be healthy for the metagame not that it is uncompetitive. I'm sure quite the competitive match can be played on it. However, would legalizing the stage be a good thing for the meta? It would be an extremely powerful counterpick for anyone with a good aerial game, as well as be completely garbage against anyone with a crap air game. This makes the stage a powerful counter pick, as if someone is playing against, say, a Little Mac, that stage gives them huge advantage. Same goes in reverse for someone who may or may not be a Sheik main. The amount of advantage given is more than a counterpick should ever have (in my opinion... Yours may vary).

Another issue (although if people ALL tested the stage this wouldn't happen) is the amount that lack of stage knowledge can affect the fight. Most tourney legal stages are straight forward. Even if you were to never play on the stage ever in your life, you still easily have the ability to figure out the stage in a matter of seconds. "Oh, battlefield is just three platforms in a trianglular position. Maybe I can use these to increase combo lengths or something.", "Oh hey look, this stage just has a platform that moves back and forth. Maybe I can use it to set up a few combos.", "Hey look! It's a flat stage! They have nowhere to hide from my projectiles." "This stage kinda tilts a little, but I can still use these platforms to my advantage." Although this statement doesn't apply to duck hunt, most of the other legal stages are easy to figure out in a glance. Regardless of deep knowledge about the stage, edge hitboxes, blast zones ecs., you can easily play around it. Player skill beats out stage design here. Even though stage selection can certainly SWAY a match, this is more due to the stage design itself as opposed the player having less knowledge about the stage.

However, on OGA, stage design (Which is better than it appears) is overshadowed by the knowledge required to play on the stage. Knowing exactly what happens when is less about player skill than it is memorization.(I am using a definition of skill in relation to characters. Some may include stage knowledge in skill. Personally, I do not.) Unlike battlefield, smashville, FD, Lylat cruise, ecs. knowing how to play on the stage is a key element of play. The properties of the stage aren't what hinder play on it, it's that lack of knowledge of said properties is much more important on OGA than it is on any currently legalized stage. Because of this, outplaying your opponent is significantly more difficult than on any other stage that is currently legalized if you have not studied it (the current closest contender being duck hunt). However, if you include this memorization as a part of said skill, then I can see why this stage seems completely fine to be legal. After all, in the words of G.I.Joe, knowing is half the battle. That being said, I hope that these people can also see from the perspective of those who do not see memorization as skill, and why their opinions differ.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

The problem is that the stage won't be healthy for the metagame not that it is uncompetitive. I'm sure quite the competitive match can be played on it. However, would legalizing the stage be a good thing for the meta? It would be an extremely powerful counterpick for anyone with a good aerial game, as well as be completely garbage against anyone with a crap air game. This makes the stage a powerful counter pick, as if someone is playing against, say, a Little Mac, that stage gives them huge advantage. Same goes in reverse for someone who may or may not be a Sheik main. The amount of advantage given is more than a counterpick should ever have (in my opinion... Yours may vary).

Another issue (although if people ALL tested the stage this wouldn't happen) is the amount that lack of stage knowledge can affect the fight. Most tourney legal stages are straight forward. Even if you were to never play on the stage ever in your life, you still easily have the ability to figure out the stage in a matter of seconds. "Oh, battlefield is just three platforms in a trianglular position. Maybe I can use these to increase combo lengths or something.", "Oh hey look, this stage just has a platform that moves back and forth. Maybe I can use it to set up a few combos.", "Hey look! It's a flat stage! They have nowhere to hide from my projectiles." "This stage kinda tilts a little, but I can still use these platforms to my advantage." Although this statement doesn't apply to duck hunt, most of the other legal stages are easy to figure out in a glance. Regardless of deep knowledge about the stage, edge hitboxes, blast zones ecs., you can easily play around it. Player skill beats out stage design here. Even though stage selection can certainly SWAY a match, this is more due to the stage design itself as opposed the player having less knowledge about the stage.

However, on OGA, stage design (Which is better than it appears) is overshadowed by the knowledge required to play on the stage. Knowing exactly what happens when is less about player skill than it is memorization.(I am using a definition of skill in relation to characters. Some may include stage knowledge in skill. Personally, I do not.) Unlike battlefield, smashville, FD, Lylat cruise, ecs. knowing how to play on the stage is a key element of play. The properties of the stage aren't what hinder play on it, it's that lack of knowledge of said properties is much more important on OGA than it is on any currently legalized stage. Because of this, outplaying your opponent is significantly more difficult than on any other stage that is currently legalized if you have not studied it (the current closest contender being duck hunt). However, if you include this memorization as a part of said skill, then I can see why this stage seems completely fine to be legal. After all, in the words of G.I.Joe, knowing is half the battle. That being said, I hope that these people can also see from the perspective of those who do not see memorization as skill, and why their opinions differ.

That's the big difference between stage liberals and stage conservatives, in my opinion. It's a question of whether stage knowledge is as legitimate as character and matchup knowledge. In my opinion, Stage knowledge affects matchups in any stage, so having more stage knowledge than the opponent should be rewarded in my opinion.

Conversly, if the game is seen more as a traditional 1V1 fighter like SF, then stage knowledge is inherently non important, as the knowledge is inferior to the important part of the character knowledge and matchup knowledge.

At least, that's my take

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I'm not sure where I would fall in the line between "stage liberal" and "stage conservative." I do agree that stage knowledge is undeniably an important factor, and is something I'm willing to exploit myself when the opportunity arises. Plus, quite frankly, we wouldn't even have a striking system in the first place if there wasn't a base level of stage knowledge required.

I'm of the opinion that OGA tends to reward stage knowledge to a greater degree than most stages, and I'm sure everyone would generally agree with that. The question becomes, is that a bad thing? As I posted earlier in this thread, I think that the reward for stage knowledge on OGA skews it too heavily in that direction and starts to take away some from match-up knowledge. But the stage itself is perfectly functional and deserves to be tested for that reason alone.

 

[Malkasaur]

God, do you Smash 4 players just want EVERY STAGE legal?

 

[Omegaphoenix]

God, do you Smash 4 players just want EVERY STAGE legal?

No. We want any stage that is not proven to be inherently unconducive to competition to be legal. No one here will vote for Temple to be legal, as it involves circle camping, caves of life, and other such shenanigans. And honestly, in some places there are far more stage conservatives, cough cough east coast.

Also, this thread is for discussion of OGA. In your next post, contribute as to why you believe this stage should be tested or not.

 

[Malkasaur]

No. We want any stage that is not proven to be inherently unconducive to competition to be legal. No one here will vote for Temple to be legal, as it involves circle camping, caves of life, and other such shenanigans. And honestly, in some places there are far more stage conservatives, cough cough east coast.

Also, this thread is for discussion of OGA. In your next post, contribute as to why you believe this stage should be tested or not.

From what I remember about the stage, it's pretty damn big, has stupid platforms, and dumb hazards. The platforms are also constantly changing, and can screw you over. I also remember there being some random wall at a point.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

From what I remember about the stage, it's pretty damn big, has stupid platforms, and dumb hazards. The platforms are also constantly changing, and can screw you over. I also remember there being some random wall at a point.

Instead of relying on memory, give this topic a read. Playing on the stage yourself in training mode also wouldn't go amiss.

 

[jespoke]

I am usually pretty open to stage legality, but this is Orbital Gate Assault. One of my least favorite stages in the entire game for having a large portion, a campy portion, a "holes in the floor" portion, a "the stage is comprised only of slightly moving platforms that i can drop through" portion, and an explosion.

 

[Brinzy]

There are some amazing posts in this thread, from comparing RANDALL to OGA; to putting words in people's mouths and swearing at humanity; to somehow trying to convince us that people will all go to wonderful OGA instead of just keeping it permastriked because it has every possible quality a bad stage could have.

There are probably 15 stages I would rather see in competitive play than this monstrosity. If you have to react to the stage every ten seconds or less, and approaching your opponent is often a bad idea, it's a completely terrible stage.

That's all there is to it.

 

[evmaxy54]

There are some amazing posts in this thread, from comparing RANDALL to OGA; to putting words in people's mouths and swearing at humanity; to somehow trying to convince us that people will all go to wonderful OGA instead of just keeping it permastriked because it has every possible quality a bad stage could have.

There are probably 15 stages I would rather see in competitive play than this monstrosity. If you have to react to the stage every ten seconds or less, and approaching your opponent is often a bad idea, it's a completely terrible stage.

That's all there is to it.

Welcome to the "Competitive" Discussion echo chamber sub-forum. A place where we discuss on how to make Sm4sh a "competitive" game.

Come back next week & we'll might discuss why we should legalise stages with permanent walk-offs.

Because that's how to promote a "competitive" meta

 

[DJBoxy]

Even when i'm paying smash competitively (Friendlies or with my actual friends) I really don't like this stage, I know that stage hazards evidently don't determine competitive play (Halberd & Delfino) this stage mainly has you fighting the stage itself more than your enemy.

For example, considering the terrain changes to all kinds of different ways, it's hard to be going on a reliable string or combo sometimes without the stage suddenly taking a completely drastic shift, and giving the opponent the chance to run away. Not to mention the various amounts of gaps and such that're easy to SD from if you're not careful, (Sort of) walks offs, and its just not fun at all to play to me. You might have a separate opinion but idk