Orbital Gate Assault: Is it that bad?

[Gawain]

Randal kills lots of people in ͥMelee, should Yoshi's be banned?

Randall doesn't kill people. He just doesn't save them sometimes.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Can we stop trying to jump to Melee when someone disagrees with OGA being legal? Melee and Smash 4 are different games with different mechanics and rulesets.

 

[kackamee]

Comparing Randall in Melee to Orbital Gate Assault in Smash 4 is trivial and leagues apart.

I wasn't comparing them. I'm merely going off your stance that stages that can kill people should be banned.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I wasn't comparing them. I'm merely going off your stance that stages that can kill people should be banned.

Randall doesn't kill people. He just doesn't save them sometimes.

Even so, that's still veering off the topic of OGA being legal/not legal.

 

[Gawain]

I wasn't comparing them. I'm merely going off your stance that stages that can kill people should be banned.

Yeah, you kinda were. Randall doesn't damage the player. He doesn't stun them or knock them back. All he can do is sometimes give you a platform to land on, which if you keep track of you can actually use to your advantage. He doesn't target players or anything like that, so saying that he kills people is not really true.

 

[kackamee]

Even so, that's still veering off the topic of OGA being legal/not legal.

I disagree. What makes the two games so different that it is a separate topic?

Yeah, you kinda were. Randall doesn't damage the player. He doesn't stun them or knock them back. All he can do is sometimes give you a platform to land on, which if you keep track of you can actually use to your advantage. He doesn't target players or anything like that, so saying that he kills people is not really true.

I wasn't. He said he thinks stages that kill people should be banned. Randall does mess up characters recoveries and kills them at times. There was no comparison besides the fact that they both "kill"

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I disagree. What makes the two games so different that it is a separate topic?

Completely different mechanics. I hardly see how you saying that Randall kills people is relevant at all, because as Gawain has already stated, he doesn't. It almost seems like you're trying to grasp at straws to try and prove me wrong? Not trying to be snide, just honestly curious.

 

[Gawain]

I disagree. What makes the two games so different that it is a separate topic?


I wasn't. He said he thinks stages that kill people should be banned. Randall does mess up characters recoveries and kills them at times. There was no comparison besides the fact that they both "kill"

I still don't agree that he kills people. The other player still has to kill them, even if they somehow accidentally land on Randall or something weird like that. Randall will never kill you without assistance. His point was that if the stage itself can literally kill you, as in knock you off the stage (Norfair Fire, Halberd beam, OGA hazards) then it shouldn't be legal. I don't necessarily agree entirely(the most extreme opinion I have is that Norfair is alright), but I don't think we miss out on TOO much by going with something like that.

 

[kackamee]

Completely different mechanics. I hardly see how you saying that Randall kills people is relevant at all, because as Gawain has already stated, he doesn't. It almost seems like you're trying to grasp at straws to try and prove me wrong? Not trying to be snide, just honestly curious.

What mechanics make the two games so different that one stage killing is different from the other? I have seen plenty of people die from Randall screwing up their recoveries in tournament to know that he can "kill" them. At least just as much as OGA. I don't see how you can stand for one but not the other.
@ Gawain , does the stage actually have any part that kills without player interaction though? If it does, then I see your point, but I've never seen anyone die on OGA without them being hit by something else first/after.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I just don't feel that we should delve into the stages that can and will kill you in normal play, just to expand the stage list, that's all. I'm not here to get into a Melee vs. Smash 4 debate.

 

[Gawain]

I just don't feel that we should delve into the stages that can and will kill you in normal play, just to expand the stage list, that's all. I'm not here to get into a Melee vs. Smash 4 debate.

Crux of the matter right here: if we don't NEED to expand the stage list, why should we? As I said before, if the stage doesn't have a valid reason to replace a current stage, I don't think it's good enough to be added.

 

[kackamee]

I don't personally like OGA either, but I think all stages deserve a chance before being cast aside. Smaller stage lists have typically led to more polarizing game play, and I'd rather not have that happen in this game just because we like to be set in our ways.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Competitive smash should be skill-based, not pick-the-hazard-filled-map-to-try-and-eke-out-a-win-based. That's why stages like OGA and 75m and Great Cave Offensive don't even need a chance in competitive play.

 

[kackamee]

You can circle camp on 75m and GCO though. Those are reasons for it to be banned. OGA has no such issue as far as I've seen. You wouldn't ever lose on OGA because of the hazard, you would lose because you got it used against you/you misplayed.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You can circle camp on 75m and GCO though. Those are reasons for it to be banned. OGA has no such issue as far as I've seen. You wouldn't ever lose on OGA because of the hazard, you would lose because you got it used against you/you misplayed.

I could say that for any hazardous stage.

No really, I can replace OGA with Gamer, Kalos League, Pac-Land etc and its still technically true....

 

[kackamee]

I could say that for any hazardous stage.

No really, I can replace OGA with Gamer, Kalos League, Pac-Land etc and its still technically true....

You could, but there are arguments against those stages that aren't present for OGA, as far as I know.
Gamers hazard is too random, the stage setup is random, and the mom does way too much knock back for how random she can be.
Kalos has hazards that cease game play for significant amounts of time in its steel, water, and fire transformations, which happen to make up a great deal of them overall.
Pac-land has scrolling walkoff syndrome ): I'm sure there are some who can argue for Pac-land, seeing as how Chain grabs have been removed, but it doesn't change that it puts characters like Mac and Ganon at a significant disadvantage by allowing it (especially as long as Duck Hunt is still legal), while giving characters with grab combos/hoohahs, a no brainer counterpick.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You could, but there are arguments against those stages that aren't present for OGA, as far as I know.
Gamers hazard is too random, the stage setup is random, and the mom does way too much knock back for how random she can be.
Kalos has hazards that cease game play for significant amounts of time in its steel, water, and fire transformations, which happen to make up a great deal of them overall.
Pac-land has scrolling walkoff syndrome ): I'm sure there are some who can argue for Pac-land, seeing as how Chain grabs have been removed, but it doesn't change that it puts characters like Mac and Ganon at a significant disadvantage by allowing it (especially as long as Duck Hunt is still legal).

Yes.

And Orbital Gate Assault has unstable ground, missiles, explosions and those gosh darn arwings....

Seriously, there are some real shenanigans with those things.

Fun shenanigans but still shenanigans.

The layout with them is so weird...

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I think the one word I would use to describe OGA is unstable.

 

[kackamee]

Yes.

And Orbital Gate Assault has unstable ground, missiles, explosions and those gosh darn arwings....

Seriously, there are some real shenanigans with those things.

Fun shenanigans but still shenanigans.

The layout with them is so weird...

According to the OP, all that stuff is set on timestamps and loops though, that can always be accounted for. Once again, I still don't think it should be legal, but I think that makes it way better than other hazard stages.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

According to the OP, all that stuff is set on timestamps and loops though, that can always be accounted for. Once again, I still don't think it should be legal, but I think that makes it way better than other hazard stages.

Definitely, I mean anything before Pac-Land, ya know.

Still, just because a hazard is predictable shouldn't immediately give it a free pass.

Garden of Hope is pretty predictable, but still interrupts play quite a bit, ya know.

 

[kackamee]

Definitely, I mean anything before Pac-Land, ya know.

Still, just because a hazard is predictable shouldn't immediately give it a free pass.

Garden of Hope is pretty predictable, but still interrupts play quite a bit, ya know.

Yeah, I agree. I was just arguing against the opinions that it shouldn't be legal because of its hazards. Personally, I think the issue is how much you have to know about the hazards for them to be a non-issue. They themselves might not be that bad when you have the knowledge, but it seems like a lot to know just for one stage.

 

[Tinkerer]

Let's face it, this will never ever be competitive. There's a certain point where you can argue for balanced stages and them showing the player skill, but so many stages in the game can do that, much more than the competitive stagelist. "I don't like it" becomes a pretty legit argument if the playerbase generally agrees on it, which I'm pretty sure is the case with stages like this one.

Yes, technically, this is probably a fine stage to play on with most characters, and you can argue for and against that into oblivion. It's pointless and more an exercise of debating than actual relevance to the competitive community.

 

[cot(θ)]

It's pointless just to talk about OGA because there's always going to be people who played on it a few times and are salty as f*ck, and just can't accept that even though you need to actually pay a bit of attention to the stage, it's still possible to have a good fight on it. The only option is to actually get videos of good players who know the stage to prove that players will have good matches on it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A question aimed at people who are against the idea of legalizing and/or playing on Orbital Gate Assault: What is your opinion on the Pokefloats stage in Melee? (EDIT: Or Rainbow Cruise if that's more your speed.)

 

[Tinkerer]

I think the better comparison here is Rainbow Cruise, not Poke Floats. More grabbable ledges, more even room to play on.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

A question aimed at people who are against the idea of legalizing and/or playing on Orbital Gate Assault: What is your opinion on the Pokefloats stage in Melee?

While I'm not against the idea of at least testing out OGA in a tournament setting, it's a stage I personally don't want to play on for various reasons. So...I guess I sorta fit the bill here?

On Pokefloats- I like the stage, but it is completely unsuitable for competitive play. Even so, aside from the lack of grabbable ledges I think PF is more immediately obvious on how you're supposed to interact with the stage. OGA requires you to understand how the hazards interact with the stage and why they hit you in the way they do (such as when the bomb explodes, launching you onto the Arwings). Also, if I recall correctly, I don't think there's ever a state in Pokefloats where there's no solid ground. There is on OGA, if even for a very brief moment.

I'm not going to argue that Pokefloats is a stronger competitive stage - it isn't - but that purely as a stage I find it more enjoyable than OGA.

The comparison with Rainbow Cruise is probably a bit more apt, and again it's a stage I simply don't like playing on all that often. I think the way OGA was described earlier was "unstable." And while it's true there's a method to the madness if you understand the stage, I do think it gets to the point where it's less about playing the opponent and more-so playing the stage. You can have stages that have lot's of unique interactions (i.e., Delphino and Skyloft) while still maintaining a degree of stability to the proceedings.

That's just my take though, and I would be willing to give OGA a shot if more tournaments were open to including it.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

It's pointless just to talk about OGA because there's always going to be people who played on it a few times and are salty as f*ck, and just can't accept that even though you need to actually pay a bit of attention to the stage, it's still possible to have a good fight on it. The only option is to actually get videos of good players who know the stage to prove that players will have good matches on it.

I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I'd definitely appreciate you stopping with the " people are just salty as **** " nonsense whenever someone disagrees with the stage. People can have differing opinions you know.

 

[Xermo]

It's pointless just to talk about OGA because there's always going to be people who played on it a few times and are salty as f*ck, and just can't accept that even though you need to actually pay a bit of attention to the stage, it's still possible to have a good fight on it. The only option is to actually get videos of good players who know the stage to prove that players will have good matches on it.

You're just salty as **** that people don't like the stage

 

[warriorman222]

You're just salty as **** that people don't like the stage

And you're not being any better. Sure he didn't sya it nicely, but he has a point. 90% of the people who ban the stage either have no reason or ban it because of first impressions. Yes, the people in this thread (like you) are the few exceptions, but it doesn't change the fact that discussion on it will clearly go nowhere.

I just don't feel that we should delve into the stages that can and will kill you in normal play, just to expand the stage list, that's all.

If that's the case Halberd, Skyloft, and Wuhu should all be banned... Except there's a reason they're allowed almost everywhere. The criteria of a stage being able to kill you=ban is literally no different form it being able to hurt you=ban.

Also there's no stage that will literally kill you in normal play(If avoidable hazards are to be ignored), except Norfair, MK8 , Kalos and Gamer, and even then the MK8 glitches seem fixed, and the other 3 are still player error..

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Also, depending on how you stretch it, even Town & City can kill you if you get footstooled on a platform as it moves offscreen. Or if you stand on it like an idiot instead of jumping or running off, but I can't imagine anyone would do that on purpose.

This was briefly mentioned before but I'm not sure anyone noticed: It's possible for P2 on Orbital Gate Assault (being whoever spawns on the front of the Great Fox, Falco in the pictures from my research thread) to survive at least one full loop of the stage by simply standing still and not pressing any buttons.

 

[cot(θ)]

You're just salty as **** that people don't like the stage

Obviously. It's such a nice stage. I can still win without it though, because it's kinda garbage for Mega Man.

 

[Gawain]

Also, depending on how you stretch it, even Town & City can kill you if you get footstooled on a platform as it moves offscreen. Or if you stand on it like an idiot instead of jumping or running off, but I can't imagine anyone would do that on purpose.

This was briefly mentioned before but I'm not sure anyone noticed: It's possible for P2 on Orbital Gate Assault (being whoever spawns on the front of the Great Fox, Falco in the pictures from my research thread) to survive at least one full loop of the stage by simply standing still and not pressing any buttons.

I don't think you're quite understanding the point. The stage isn't literally killing you. It's just the platforms moving. They don't move erratically like they do on OGA. They don't damage the player either.

 

[warriorman222]

I don't think you're quite understanding the point. The stage isn't literally killing you. It's just the platforms moving. They don't move erratically like they do on OGA. They don't damage the player either.

The stage kills you at 190%. Yeah... If you're somehow still alive by then in a serious match, you deserve a medal. The tunnel floor doesn't really count as it replaces instakill with a very early death.

None of the platforms directly damage the player on OGA. Ever. Even if you count a 0% set knokcback explosion as damage, it never kills. But the 2 missiles aren't exactly from the platforms, and the Exhaust is extremely low damage output in quite iffy areas; in order to be properly hit by it, you usually have to be airborne.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't think you're quite understanding the point. The stage isn't literally killing you. It's just the platforms moving. They don't move erratically like they do on OGA. They don't damage the player either.

Frankly I draw very little distinction between a stage killing you via direct damage and a stage killing you via a platform that carries you offscreen. Both are stage features that can result in a KO, especially if deliberately leveraged against you by the opponent (footstools, well-timed combos, etc.).

The more I have these kind of debates the more I realize there is a fundamental disconnect between the two sides. I simply do not mind having to pay attention to the stage like OGA requires. That's why arguing about erratic platform movement or damaging hazards or whatever tends to get nowhere against me, since "how does the stage move" and "what hazards do I need to look for" are already on my mental checklist. (And erratic as it may be, OGA acts exactly the same every time you load it up and every time it loops through the cycle again. If you can learn Rainbow Cruise or Pokefloats, you can learn OGA.)

The only criteria that should be applied to a stage to determine legality should be "does the stage promote gameplay, strategies, etc. that are counter to what we want for competitive Smash." Not "do games run long" or "can the stage kill you" or "is it too hard to learn." Because PS1's Rock and Fire forms promote (temporary) stalling, Halberd can kill you quite easily, and no one bats an eye at memorizing Randall's timing anymore.

For the record, I do not believe at this time that OGA promotes any such undesirable gameplay. Mostly because I have seen no proof of such. (Not surprising, since no one plays on the bloody thing.)

The stage kills you at 190%. Yeah... If you're somehow still alive by then in a serious match, you deserve a medal. The tunnel floor doesn't really count as it replaces instakill with a very early death.

None of the platforms directly damage the player on OGA. Ever. If you count a 0% set knokcback explosion as damage, I won't insult you for that. But 2 missiles aren't exactly from the platforms, and the Exhaust is extremely low damage output in quite iffy area, it be properly hit by it, you usually have to be airborne.

Small nitpick: The exhaust can damage players standing at the ledge in their "oh dear I'm about to fall" animation. I guess really big characters can be a bit further away but I didn't test that in great detail.

 

[Gawain]

Frankly I draw very little distinction between a stage killing you via direct damage and a stage killing you via a platform that carries you offscreen. Both are stage features that can result in a KO, especially if deliberately leveraged against you by the opponent (footstools, well-timed combos, etc.).

The more I have these kind of debates the more I realize there is a fundamental disconnect between the two sides. I simply do not mind having to pay attention to the stage like OGA requires. That's why arguing about erratic platform movement or damaging hazards or whatever tends to get nowhere against me, since "how does the stage move" and "what hazards do I need to look for" are already on my mental checklist. (And erratic as it may be, OGA acts exactly the same every time you load it up and every time it loops through the cycle again. If you can learn Rainbow Cruise or Pokefloats, you can learn OGA.)

The only criteria that should be applied to a stage to determine legality should be "does the stage promote gameplay, strategies, etc. that are counter to what we want for competitive Smash." Not "do games run long" or "can the stage kill you" or "is it too hard to learn." Because PS1's Rock and Fire forms promote (temporary) stalling, Halberd can kill you quite easily, and no one bats an eye at memorizing Randall's timing anymore.

For the record, I do not believe at this time that OGA promotes any such undesirable gameplay. Mostly because I have seen no proof of such. (Not surprising, since no one plays on the bloody thing.)


Small nitpick: The exhaust can damage players standing at the ledge in their "oh dear I'm about to fall" animation. I guess really big characters can be a bit further away but I didn't test that in great detail.

Regardless of all this, the simple fact of the matter is that people just don't like to play on the stage almost universally. Why force people to play on a stage they don't like? The only reason I could fathom is that some people wish they could cheese peopile with it

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

The only reason I could fathom is that some people wish they could cheese peopile with it

That's the only reason I can think of too.

 

[MajorMajora]

Regardless of all this, the simple fact of the matter is that people just don't like to play on the stage almost universally. Why force people to play on a stage they don't like? The only reason I could fathom is that some people wish they could cheese peopile with it

A: Look at the poll. It's not universal.
B: Forcing people to play on a stage they don't like is a ore mechanic of our competitive ruleset. It's called counter picking.
C: You're asking why? Because if someone takes the time to learn and wins because of it, that is due to their own skill. It adds depth. There is more to get better at which separates the strong from the weak. That is why.

I don't want to have to fight diddy kong. But no matter how many peole agree, banning him is just silly. Same applies here.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Regardless of all this, the simple fact of the matter is that people just don't like to play on the stage almost universally. Why force people to play on a stage they don't like? The only reason I could fathom is that some people wish they could cheese peopile with it

But...no one's forcing you to play there? Stage striking for game 1 is a thing, as are stage bans for all subsequent games. (Unless you're at a tournament with no stage bans at all, which I suppose is possible but I've never actually heard of one in practice.)

If you opt not to ban it and get counterpicked there, then clearly your opponent thought it offered something for them to use, whether it's a direct benefit to their character or a chance to take advantage of stage knowledge they don't expect you to have. Both are completely valid reasons to pick a stage. And the fact that you didn't ban it when given a chance implies you feared another stage more for whatever reason. (Same logic if it ends up being the only stage left after striking on some wild chance it's allowed for that.)

I get that not everyone wants to play on any given stage, and that's fine, but you're acting like this is a push for OGA to be the only legal stage in the game and that's just not true.

 

[Staticky]

This thread is so outrageous. Why should this stage be legalized? Melee has 6 legal stages. That game has been in the competitive scene for over 10 years and still going strong. This game has around 8 legal stages, and the game isn't even a year old. And Yes, by adding another CP stage, you are forcing someone to play on a stage they might not like. The current EVO ruleset lets the winner ban one stage and lets the loser pick from the remaining stages. I personally, would want to ban OGA or Duck Hunt. I might have to play on one of these maps I don't like because of this stage being legal.

 

[MajorMajora]

This thread is so outrageous. Why should this stage be legalized? Melee has 6 legal stages. That game has been in the competitive scene for over 10 years and still going strong. This game has around 8 legal stages, and the game isn't even a year old. And Yes, by adding another CP stage, you are forcing someone to play on a stage they might not like. The current EVO ruleset lets the winner ban one stage and lets the loser pick from the remaining stages. I personally, would want to ban OGA or Duck Hunt. I might have to play on one of these maps I don't like because of this stage being legal.

Melee is competitive. It has 6 stages. It is not competitive because it had 6 stages,

Not to mention, so what if you don't want to fight against it? I don't want to play against yoshi. Tough luck. Learn it, cause it's in the game, and there's no reason to ban it. Sure, we don't have any particular reason to keep, say, mario in the game, but we don't ban him because we don't have a reason. Same should apply to stages.

So, that's why.