One of the original 8 characters has to be cut. Who should it be?

Zinith

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#41
It was one of the first series to introduce the long-form 2D platforming style
It encourages you to not rush and take your time. It wants you to take in the aesthetic and the art-style, which was different from 2D platformers before it including Mario, Sonic and even DK
It implemented a more forgiving playstyle and you can get by with little to no powerups.
It introduced collectathon elements in 2D platforming (yes, there were things TO collect in previous 2D platformers, but it's cranked up to 11 in Yoshi's Island)
Out of the 8 original franchises, it sits at 6th in sales, meaning it's not immediately considered on the chopping block

I know it's not the most merits of any franchise, but it does have some merits not tied to Mario...
 

Rhus

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#42
It was one of the first series to introduce the long-form 2D platforming style
It encourages you to not rush and take your time. It wants you to take in the aesthetic and the art-style, which was different from 2D platformers before it including Mario, Sonic and even DK
It implemented a more forgiving playstyle and you can get by with little to no powerups.
It introduced collectathon elements in 2D platforming (yes, there were things TO collect in previous 2D platformers, but it's cranked up to 11 in Yoshi's Island)
Out of the 8 original franchises, it sits at 6th in sales, meaning it's not immediately considered on the chopping block

I know it's not the most merits of any franchise, but it does have some merits not tied to Mario...
Not to be a jerk, but you did mention :ultfox: should get the boot and then say merits are the most important part...

Star Fox has:
  • A completely unique universe nothing like any other IP
  • Completely original characters
  • One of (perhaps the first?) the first 3D games in existence, literally revolutionized how gaming can be perceived
  • Later went onto define action/arcade games with level design.
  • Star Fox encourages high level of optimization to get the highest scores possible but with satisfying progression
 

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#43
We should kick out Kirby for looking like in the modern games and not the classic titles made by Sakurai.
 

TheBeastHimself

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#44
It was one of the first series to introduce the long-form 2D platforming style
It encourages you to not rush and take your time. It wants you to take in the aesthetic and the art-style, which was different from 2D platformers before it including Mario, Sonic and even DK
It implemented a more forgiving playstyle and you can get by with little to no powerups.
It introduced collectathon elements in 2D platforming (yes, there were things TO collect in previous 2D platformers, but it's cranked up to 11 in Yoshi's Island)
Out of the 8 original franchises, it sits at 6th in sales, meaning it's not immediately considered on the chopping block

I know it's not the most merits of any franchise, but it does have some merits not tied to Mario...
But DK literally birthed the entire Mario universe. Without that, there would be no Yoshi. I don't mean to sound harsh, but DK overall is the more important character based on his long history and ground breaking successes. Look at DK's merits, there is a lot more there than Yoshi even though he is also a very recognizable character.
 
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Zinith

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#45
Not to be a jerk, but you did mention :ultfox: should get the boot and then say merits are the most important part...

Star Fox has:
  • A completely unique universe nothing like any other IP
  • Completely original characters
  • One of (perhaps the first?) the first 3D games in existence, literally revolutionized how gaming can be perceived
  • Later went onto define action/arcade games with level design.
  • Star Fox encourages high level of optimization to get the highest scores possible but with satisfying progression
I'll go down that one-by-one...

1. Every IP has a completely unique universe, kind of a non-sequitur. Or are you saying that to undermine Yoshi's franchise? Because in that case, it's world gets by on aesthetic alone regardless of borrowed characters from the Mario series. Also the later games DO incorporate new universes.
2. Again, I can't help but feel this is a passive jab at Yoshi. Everyone sees the main characters and think "oh, Yoshi games are just Mario games" but don't look at the smaller aspects that are unique to him. I can name quite a bit of enemies on the top of my head that are unique to his series.
3. Got me there, Yoshi's games didn't do anything that impressive, though changing how platforming objectives can be seen helps too (this came out a year before Super Mario 64)
4. Ditto with Yoshi and collectathons as I mentioned above.
5. Yoshi games attains that goal but with the opposite approach, so...

Anyways, it should've been clear to the OP that the only way this thread would go down is to unfairly rag on :ultyoshi: and :ultfox:. Admittedly I chose Fox for obviously biased reasons, but I don't actually want them to be cut. But if this thread goes down basically dogpiling on my boi, *grumble*

But DK literally birthed the entire Mario universe. Without that, there would be no Yoshi. I don't mean to sound harsh, but DK overall is the more important character based on his long history and ground breaking successes. Look at DK's merits, there is a lot more there than Yoshi even though he is also a very recognizable character.
What's with this about DK? He's not even remotely relevant to why I'm defending my boi.

Anyways, I'm still in pain and this is getting me irritated. Can you all at least not make a hasty choice and say "Yoshi should be the one!!"?
 

Rhus

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#46
I'll go down that one-by-one...

1. Every IP has a completely unique universe, kind of a non-sequitur. Or are you saying that to undermine Yoshi's franchise? Because in that case, it's world gets by on aesthetic alone regardless of borrowed characters from the Mario series. Also the later games DO incorporate new universes.
2. Again, I can't help but feel this is a passive jab at Yoshi. Everyone sees the main characters and think "oh, Yoshi games are just Mario games" but don't look at the smaller aspects that are unique to him. I can name quite a bit of enemies on the top of my head that are unique to his series.
3. Got me there, Yoshi's games didn't do anything that impressive, though changing how platforming objectives can be seen helps too (this came out a year before Super Mario 64)
4. Ditto with Yoshi and collectathons as I mentioned above.
5. Yoshi games attains that goal but with the opposite approach, so...

Anyways, it should've been clear to the OP that the only way this thread would go down is to unfairly rag on :ultyoshi: and :ultfox:. Admittedly I chose Fox for obviously biased reasons, but I don't actually want them to be cut. But if this thread goes down basically dogpiling on my boi, *grumble*
Fair points all around - though to clarify my first two points, Nintendo has only two IPs which can be considered SciFi, being Metroid and Star Fox, and Star Fox has completely fleshed out planets in an entirely new Galaxy with anthropomorphic animals. Yoshi's series borrows a lot of elements from the mario series directly in art direction (less so in recent installments, which have done a good job differentiating themselves here) and enemies (shy guys, koopas, etc.) and does exist in the same universe as Mario (baby mario and all that). I am not saying this as a particular jab at Yoshi's series, however, but I do think Star Fox's setting and genre are substantially further removed from Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, and DK than Yoshi is, especially when he's around two other platformers (excluding the retro Metroids to be generous). I would say the same for DK and Mario and Yoshi all borrowing elements from each other.

I think most would agree Yoshi and Mario games are far more similar to each other than Star Fox is to any other Nintendo IP - but that's not a bad thing. I think the series learned from each other and both improved as a result. If anything, the modern design of Yoshi games overlaps more with the philosophy of Kirby games.
The nature of this thread will sadly boil down to :ultyoshi: is "just a Mario character" and :ultfox: is from a "dead series", which is a bit annoying as you and I are kind of the spokespeople for these respective characters at this point.
 

TheBeastHimself

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#47
Anyways, I'm still in pain and this is getting me irritated. Can you all at least not make a hasty choice and say "Yoshi should be the one!!"?
Alright so let's drop all the other stuff then. But I do have one question for you. Why does it matter so much to you if other people share a different opinion from you? Don't take that the wrong way now, but anyone is free to simply say "Yoshi should be the one" if that's how they feel. They aren't required to elaborate if they don't wish to. We all like different things, that's what's really cool about this site. No one is gonna judge you for liking Yoshi, but there's no point in trying to argue with how other people feel. The important thing is that you like Yoshi, and you believe he shouldn't be cut from Smash 64. So why does what I say or anyone else matter? It doesn't. So don't worry about it, I wasn't trying to attack Yoshi. I was only trying to provide a different viewpoint.
 

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#48
Alright so let's drop all the other stuff then. But I do have one question for you. Why does it matter so much to you if other people share a different opinion from you? Don't take that the wrong way now, but anyone is free to simply say "Yoshi should be the one" if that's how they feel. They aren't required to elaborate if they don't wish to. We all like different things, that's what's really cool about this site. No one is gonna judge you for liking Yoshi, but there's no point in trying to argue with how other people feel. The important thing is that you like Yoshi, and you believe he shouldn't be cut from Smash 64. So why does what I say or anyone else matter? It doesn't. So don't worry about it, I wasn't trying to attack Yoshi. I was only trying to provide a different viewpoint.
I was saying don't make a hasty choice, as in seeing a thread like this and in no hesitation answering Yoshi. I'd like a little more thought put into it than that...
 

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#49
Of the original 64 cast, I think the no-brainer to cut would be Jigglypuff in this scenario. As iconic Jigglypuff is in in Smash Bros., they don't share the same weight the rest of the 64 cast does in their own series. Jigglypuff was sort of the Piranha Plant of 64 imo, although to be fair their appeal in the Pokemon anime plus how much could be copy-pasted off of Kirby helped squeeze her into the cast.

If we're only going off the original 8 like the thread title says (I think it should include all 12 but whatever), I'd cut Yoshi, who, despite being put into his own series, is technically a Mario series character, and the only repeat series rep in the original 8.
I actually came here to post this.
 
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#50
It's all good, don't worry.

All Crystanium Crystanium is saying is that out of the original 8, Yoshi would be the one he'd pick to remove. They are not saying that Yoshi should be cut from Smash in general. That'd be a bit ridiculous. And I get where Crystanium is coming from. Yoshi is sorta kinda like DK in this situation. They have their roots traced backed to Mario. However, not to sound disrespectful, but DK definitely made a bigger impact than Yoshi did thanks to Rare, so I can see why they'd choose Yoshi. Everyone else represents their franchises fine.
DK at least made some kind of contribution, considering the arcade days. Even R.O.B. had more impact during the 1983 video gaming crash.
 

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#51
When Smash Bros. started in 99, I would say Kirby was the least important and iconic out of the original 8 at the time so if we are going back to 1999, I would say Kirby. The Kirby franchise though today is one of Nintendo's top best selling franchises and Kirby is kind of iconic now compared to viewing him in the 90's or even 00's. So if Smash Bros. started this year, I would say Fox or Yoshi for the original 8. Out of the original twelve, I would say Jigglypuff.

There was an interesting Reddit thread where people speculated what the roster would look like if we were just now getting Smash Bros for the first time. I definitely think Fox, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Ness, and maybe even Samus would not make the cut. Some people in that thread were even saying Donkey Kong--I don't really agree there, but I guess it all depends on who is making the game.
If Smash Bros. started this year, Samus would still be in it because her franchise is not only relevant unlike Star Fox, F-Zero, and Mother, but is also the most iconic franchise of Nintendo's I would say after Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, and DK.
 
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#55
thats right **** ness and the overrated mother series /s
It's not that his series is overrated. It's that I'm fed up with Ness and Lucas in SSBU. I even have a lot of experience against Ness, and here I'm losing to people who can just spam PK Fire all day long. I wish Samus'/Dark Samus' Charge Shot hit that often.
 

TheBeastHimself

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#56
It's not that his series is overrated. It's that I'm fed up with Ness and Lucas in SSBU. I even have a lot of experience against Ness, and here I'm losing to people who can just spam PK Fire all day long. I wish Samus'/Dark Samus' Charge Shot hit that often.
You're right. Sometimes I feel like the only Ness main that's really willing to admit this, but PK Fire is no joke one of the most broken moves in the game. Yes it's avoidable, but the problem is the move happens fast and it just leaves you completely vulnerable. Easily spammable to rack up damage in a cheap way. Easily sets up combos that are essentially more spam (fair into fair into fair).

Due to my enjoyment of Mother 3, I decided to switch over to Lucas during the Brawl days. He can be annoying too, but I don't think he's as bad. The worse thing he can do in Smash Ultimate is PK Freeze.
 

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#57
I don't wanna say Fox or Yoshi ...

... but it'd be Fox or Yoshi. Mario is untouchable, Pokemon is too massive a series to cut Pikachu, Link is from one of Nintendo's most critically acclaimed series, DK is also super iconic, Samus is one of the biggest female video game icons (plus Metroid is a nice contrast to most of the others' series) and Kirby is Kirby. So by default it'd be the space animal or the green dinosaur. Sorry guys.
 

Arthur97

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#58
Yoshi. He's iconic and all, but he's a Mario spin off and side kick. Games are (mostly) fun, but not that plentiful or renowned except maybe the first Yoshi's Island.
 
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#59
You're right. Sometimes I feel like the only Ness main that's really willing to admit this, but PK Fire is no joke one of the most broken moves in the game. Yes it's avoidable, but the problem is the move happens fast and it just leaves you completely vulnerable. Easily spammable to rack up damage in a cheap way. Easily sets up combos that are essentially more spam (fair into fair into fair).

Due to my enjoyment of Mother 3, I decided to switch over to Lucas during the Brawl days. He can be annoying too, but I don't think he's as bad. The worse thing he can do in Smash Ultimate is PK Freeze.
I have more problems with Lucas. PK Fire with a strong knock-back is worse in my eyes.
 

ganondorf_22

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#60
I think it’s fair to say Yoshi should be the one. It’s not my choice for the first prompt, but he was one of the three I cut re: the second prompt.

That being said, I like Michael’s final 12.

If the N64 Smash were to be released today the roster would probably be like this.

:ultluigi::ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus::ultmarth:
:ultisabelle::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultinkling::ultpikachu::ultmewtwo:
I’d probably suggest swapping Chrom for Marth, though.

You want to play the next level of this game?

Scenario 1) My guess is everyone would cut Ice Climbers from the starting 14 in Melee, but if not, feel free to say who you would cut.

Scenario 2) Smash Bros. only has 14 characters now. Which 14 should they be?
 

ganondorf_22

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#62
Smash Bros. only has 14 characters now. Which 14 should they be?
Here are my 14—

Mario
Ryu
Donkey Kong
Luigi
Pikachu
Samus
Link
Ganondorf
Kyle Hyde
Takamaru
Kirby
Yoshi
Fox
Falco

(If I had to limit it to 12, I’d get rid of Falco and Takamaru, and make Kyle, Ganondorf, Ryu, and Luigi the unlockable characters.)
 
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Zinith

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#63
I think it’s fair to say Yoshi should be the one.
No.

No that's not fair actually. You're basically stripping all of Yoshi's merits as a video game headliner AND as a unique fighter in Smash and simplifying it to "but he's just a Mario side-character. bleh" In 1999 do you think Sakurai chose him because he threw a dart board? And you wouldn't think if he were asked the question "If Smash was created today who would be your first 8 characters?" he wouldn't say "the exact same as before"?
 

ganondorf_22

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#64
In 1999 do you think Sakurai chose him because he threw a dart board? And you wouldn't think if he were asked the question "If Smash was created today who would be your first 8 characters?" he wouldn't say "the exact same as before"?
No. And I don’t know. (Probably not given where Fox’s series is currently, unless he says that to give a diplomatic answer.) [And I could be wrong.]
 
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#65
Realistically the cut OG8 character would likely be Fox or Yoshi, if any. However, I'll be the person who says Kirby solely for the sake of variety because reading Yoshi and Fox over and over again is boring. :p
 
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#66
Ranking the original 8 in terms of total franchise sales:
:ultmario: - 588 million
:ultpikachu: - 311 million
:ultlink: - 91 million
:ultdk: - 58 million
:ultkirby: - 35 million
:ultyoshi: - 20 million
:ultsamus: - 17 million
:ultfox: - 12 million

From a purely numbers-based standpoint, Fox is the clear loser here. The only reason I could see to remove Yoshi is "too many Mario characters," but even if you count Yoshi as part of the Mario series, I think that number shows Mario might deserve to have more reps than any other series.

If these 8 series were each represented proportionally to sales, the Mario series should get about 50x as many reps as the Star Fox series. Anytime I hear people say there are too many Mario characters, I have a hard time believing it because Mario really is that big and probably deserves as many characters as it gets.
 

TheBeastHimself

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#67
No.

No that's not fair actually. You're basically stripping all of Yoshi's merits as a video game headliner AND as a unique fighter in Smash and simplifying it to "but he's just a Mario side-character. bleh" In 1999 do you think Sakurai chose him because he threw a dart board? And you wouldn't think if he were asked the question "If Smash was created today who would be your first 8 characters?" he wouldn't say "the exact same as before"?
My intentions aren't to come off as rude, but I think you're taking this thread way more serious than it actually is. Nobody here is saying that Yoshi is unqualified for Smash, or that he should be cut because that's completely ridiculous, of course Yoshi has enough merits to qualify. We're being given the smallest pool of characters to choose from here, and some people think Yoshi should be the one cut out of the original 8. But you can't keep getting upset every time someone mentions him here. What I quoted from you, to me, looks like you're going after someone for having a different opinion than you in a very passive aggressive way, and that's not cool. Nobody needs to elaborate if they don't choose to, nobody needs to explain themselves to you. If you want your opinions respected, than you have to respect other people's opinions in return. Once again, I'm not trying to be mean here, but c'mon this thread was probably made for fun. People have mentioned Ness here but I'm not giving them a 1001 reasons why Ness shouldn't be the one cut.

This is all coming from a place of caring. It looks like you're getting worked up because your favorite character is being disrespected and not given enough credit in your eyes. But what I'm trying to show is that if you like Yoshi than that's all that should matter. **** what I say or what anyone else has to say because at the end of the day you're still going to like Yoshi. If Yoshi can get the credit he deserves in your eyes, then, once again, that's all that should matter. Trust me, I've been in your shoes before. I'm probably one of the only hardcore Conker fans on this site, and he gets disrespected a ton, not given enough credit by a ton of Banjo fans (not saying this is anyone from Smashboards). But I'm okay with that because I respect the way they feel, and in my eyes, I love Conker so that isn't going to stop me from wanting him in Smash.
 
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#68
No matter how I look at this, there's no good pick or ultimate pick from the original 8 to be cut. It just can't happen. And even if I try to look between say, the most discussed characters now; Fox and Yoshi, I can't think of any other which might suit instead. There's no possibility it would ever happen, so everyone should take a chill pill. If pills aren't your thing, herbal solutions are also possible, and my personal choice.
 

ganondorf_22

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#69
No matter how I look at this, there's no good pick or ultimate pick from the original 8 to be cut. It just can't happen. And even if I try to look between say, the most discussed characters now; Fox and Yoshi, I can't think of any other which might suit instead. There's no possibility it would ever happen, so everyone should take a chill pill. If pills aren't your thing, herbal solutions are also possible, and my personal choice.
They’re all good picks. I’d say Kirby would be the third choice to go after Fox and Yoshi. Fox is the ultimate pick for me.
 

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#71
They’re all good picks. I’d say Kirby would be the third choice to go after Fox and Yoshi. Fox is the ultimate pick for me.
I tried to think of Pikachu, because there's so many Pokemon. But then again, Pokemon Let's Go Pikachu already made it clear Pikachu is going nowhere. Also he's all over the Pokemon games. And especially spin offs. It's not possible. Samus I also thought of, but Metroid is hugely popular. And it could only be justified with a dumb explantation saying : lol Samus's Power Suit broke, here take Zero Suit Samus instead. But no. And we can't even talk about the remaining 5 characters.
 

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#73
My choice is Puff. It's not the only Pokemon, and it's not too popular of a Pokemon anymore. Not only that the character has struggled in almost every Smash except Melee in terms of Viability. And I don't really think there's a way to fix that. With all the characters that beat Puff just off of their kit alone and how easy it is to recover in the new titles; it just doesn't look too bright for me. And this isn't a biased post either. I love all the original 8. I main Puff in melee. I just don't see her appeal anymore.

EDIT: I now see it's only the 8 I'm a dunce. I void this LOL
 
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Zinith

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#74
Okay, what if I propose a different way of thinking about this topic? Instead of thinking about which character "Smash doesn't need," how about the one who "doesn't need Smash?" Thus, :ultpikachu:...

Now here me out. Of the original 8 original franchises, Pokemon can operate on its own outside of Nintendo's boundaries (and it often does). The Pokemon Company has the resources to make their own platform fighter if it wants to. Thus, in an ironic twist, Pikachu could be out of the Original 8 for the exact opposite reasons given for my boi and Fox...
 

Diddy Kong

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#75
Okay, what if I propose a different way of thinking about this topic? Instead of thinking about which character "Smash doesn't need," how about the one who "doesn't need Smash?" Thus, :ultpikachu:...

Now here me out. Of the original 8 original franchises, Pokemon can operate on its own outside of Nintendo's boundaries (and it often does). The Pokemon Company has the resources to make their own platform fighter if it wants to. Thus, in an ironic twist, Pikachu could be out of the Original 8 for the exact opposite reasons given for my boi and Fox...
I thought about it, but no, it's impossible. Pikachu might even be more recognisable than Mario. Mario vs Pikachu was one of the main things that sold Smash. There's no way they could do that. They could even cut Kirby before Pikachu without a heartbeat. I thought of Pikachu before, but no, Pikachu is really way too popular for this to happen.

Also, I wanna shed some light to this thread, because there already has been an answer, within Smash.

Because the only character in Smash Bros. from the Original 8 that HAS been cut, is Link. :link64::linkmelee: He appeared only in Smash 64, and Melee. And later got replaced in Brawl with Twilight Princess Link :link2::4link: who stayed till Smash 4, only to be replaced again for his newest incarnation; Breath of the Wild Link :ultlink:. And in a way, he's still there through Young Link :ultyounglink:, but only in different form.
 

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#76
I thought about it, but no, it's impossible. Pikachu might even be more recognisable than Mario. Mario vs Pikachu was one of the main things that sold Smash. There's no way they could do that. They could even cut Kirby before Pikachu without a heartbeat. I thought of Pikachu before, but no, Pikachu is really way too popular for this to happen.
Well I was thinking outside the box with that one...
 

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#77
Here's my opinion on the matter.
:ultmario: The ****ing face of Nintendo, no way you can cut him.
:ultlink: The other face of Nintendo. Also not cutting.
:ultkirby::ultpikachu:Main characters of franchises that have been going strong for plenty of years and raking in lots of money. Really hard sell on cutting them.
:ultsamus::ultyoshi: Have had bumpy roads but both have had a good game come out recently and have a new game looming over on the horizon. Not the best idea to cut.
:ultdk:Hasn't had a game come out recently and no new title on the horizon but the games before the drought were really good. I personally wouldn't cut them but I can see the arguement.
:ultfox: Caught lightning in a bottle in the 90's but otherwise has been producing meh titles at best with no new title on the horizon. Honestly the biggest reason to not cut him is because of his popularity in Melee.
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
23,615
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
#78
Anyway, I think it’s solved. Link would be the one to be cut :linkmelee:, but in return, we would get ... Link! :ultlink:
 

Manonymous

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
298
Location
France
#79
If Smash64 was released today, I think the roster would look like this :

:ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus::ultpikachu::ultfox::ultkirby::ultyoshi:

Secret characters :

:ultinkling::ultchrom::ultvillager::ultluigi:

Reasons for veterans :
Mario : Do I really need to day something here ?
Donkey Kong : Had always been alongside Mario, so is an obvious choice.
Link : An obvious one too, because of how popular Zelda is. Plus, with the Link's Awakening remake, games from his universe are still created.
Samus : Her status of first video game heroine and Metroid Prime 4 on the way, it would have been dumb if they cut her.
Pikachu : Do I really need to say something here ?
Fox : The only thing that keep him alive is Starlink. If Melee was made nowadays, Row should have been in. Even with Star Fox Zero on Wii I, it doesn't seem that Nintendo really wants to continue this franchise anymore.
Kirby : Kirby Star Allies is cool and it's a serie that keep growing, so I couldn't just cut him.
Yoshi : With his game practically finished and his popularity, I couldn't cut him.
Luigi : See Mario.

Reasons for cuts :
Captain Falcon : His serie is new a retro thing. Congrats. He isn't as popular as he was back in GX. Yeah, even if Nintendo release a new game right now, Captain Falcon isn't not 1s popular as the other characters. Bye.
Jigglypuff : While it's a fun character, I don't think Jigglypuff is that popular outside of Smash.
Ness : A retro rep. So, like Captain Falcon, he's kind of dead. Bye.

Newcomers choice :

Inkling : Seeing how big Splatoon is, I don't see how Inklings couldn't be in this game if it was released nowadays.
Chrom : See above.
Villager : With a new Animal Crossing on the way, it would have been dumb to not put him in.
 
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