On vertical spacing, bubbles & the second-most-punishing character (European Social)

[xDD-Master]

I made my remark for three reasons:

1. The Brawl scene in many ways mirrors the Melee scene, which went through similar developments and ended up with limited stage lists where it mattered.

Even if this is true (Which it definitely is in some way), that isnt a good justification at all.

2. The Japanese scene is the best in the world. This doesn't necessarily have to do with their ruleset, but it's good practice to at least consider the settings of a superior region. This sentiment is felt by many at the moment.

Again, I wont say that this isnt true.
But that doesnt say that we have to apply their rulesets, as there arent any hints that show us, that this is a factor. It MAY is, but we just dont know.
And even if it is true, doesnt automatically mean that we should use their ruleset

3. In reality several stages are barely picked and the CPs are CPs for a reason: people feel they are less neutral or less fitting of the starter mold. If we are moving towards a scene where there is less of a focus on stage counterpicking (we're already mostly there, our stage list is in some ways an awkward compromise), they will go at some point.

People feel they are less neutral =/= they are less neutral.
And even if they are less neutral, as long as they arent completely broken or stupid, there is no reason to ban them, other than very subjective opinions.

The one issue I have is that I feel SV and BF are by far the most neutral/best starter stages in the game, with YI a distant third.

Agreed on SV/BF being better than all the other stages... how is it in melee? Are all 5/6 Stages really equal in terms of how balanced and good they are?

And YI is meh... every of the other 8-9 stages are candidates for that spot... hell even PS2 is probably the third most neutral stage out of those (If PS2 is included obv)

Behind that CS comes to mind, which is pretty balanced as well...

I only wish we had a really good 3rd neutral in Brawl :/

You can easily sort Brawl Stages into 3 groups...

Best
SV
BF

Good Stages
FD
YI
LC
PS1
CS
PD
BH
FO
PS2

Middle Class
[Some stages]

And then there are very borderline Stages (If you want to make a middle group between "Middle Class" and "Obv. Banned" last two) and obv. banned stages like Hyrule.

Spoiler

Starter:
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Counterpick:
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1

And what made you assume that YI>FD/LC/PS1?
And what made you picking FD/LC/PS1 as CPs but not CS/PD/BH/FO/PS2?

This is nothing more than a subjective Stage List of what you want to be the stages available (Or other people), but has nothing to do with a clever stage choice.

What we have right now (10-11 Stages) is pretty much the best compromise we can get, between people that want even more Stages, people that like our stage list how it is, and people that want even less stages.

Its always bad to only catter to one group, so I think we are going the right way with 10-11 Stages, is it allows for a lot of Stage diversity without being completely stupid (Like if we add RC/BS).

 

[Marc]

Greward: Yeah, LC would be fine too as far as I'm concerned. Too bad for Sonic mains.

EDIT: I'll respond to you when I get home, Akuma.



Okay, back home...

Even if this is true (Which it definitely is in some way), that isnt a good justification at all.

My post started with a prediction and that was the reasoning for it. As a justification it's kind of irrelevant, though there's no shame in not trying to reinvent the wheel with everything you do.

Again, I wont say that this isnt true.
But that doesnt say that we have to apply their rulesets, as there arent any hints that show us, that this is a factor. It MAY is, but we just dont know.
And even if it is true, doesnt automatically mean that we should use their ruleset

The way I see it, it's up for consideration.

People feel they are less neutral =/= they are less neutral.
And even if they are less neutral, as long as they arent completely broken or stupid, there is no reason to ban them, other than very subjective opinions.

We already made subjective decisions to get to our current stage list. Something like Rainbow Cruise or PictoChat isn't completely broken either, but we decided that those stages don't fit in with our competitive view. As far as neutrality goes, the problem is that there is no one out there gathering data, so (educated) opinions are all we have.

Agreed on SV/BF being better than all the other stages... how is it in melee? Are all 5/6 Stages really equal in terms of how balanced and good they are?

I find most sets start on Battlefield and there is no set counterpick in singles (Fountain of Dreams is banned in teams due to lag, so it's easy there). We currently have FD as the counterpick stage in my country, with 5 starters. But yeah, not all of those stages are equally balanced, but you can strike and ban from those still and the possible character-stage combinations are not that broken. At some point it also becomes a matter of the best characters being favoured regardless, space animals for example will have the most options no matter how big or small your stage list is.

And YI is meh... every of the other 8-9 stages are candidates for that spot... hell even PS2 is probably the third most neutral stage out of those (If PS2 is included obv)

I definitely agree that PS2 would be up there in terms of neutrality matchupwise, but I would never run with a stage that changes physics. PS1 or LC could very well be a better choice than YI, though with PS1 I feel the hazards are obtrusive, even moreso than in Melee. LC would be fine with me, I just hear people ***** about the tilting edges a lot.

Behind that CS comes to mind, which is pretty balanced as well...

Castle Siege seems to be largely unpopular and at least the second part of the stage is completely unfit for competitive play. The first and third parts are okay and I'm not that sure whether it skews matchups, but stages with properties like that are never starters. It's a stage you have to "learn", to a certain extent.

This is nothing more than a subjective Stage List of what you want to be the stages available (Or other people), but has nothing to do with a clever stage choice.

It's definitely my own subjective opinion, but I'm entitled to that much and I actually run tournaments every once in a while. I mostly based it on the stage list we already have, as well as what I think is consensus, so it's not completely arbitrary or whimsical. I already pointed out Brawl lacks a third starter on the level of SV/BF and going with 5 starters + 1 CP is also an option (even always starting on SV is...). What I would consider first and foremost is trimming the fat, though it's not like I have some huge issues with the current stage list. I just think it could be better.

 

[Anaky]

PS2 shouldnt be part of good stages, in my opinion.

 

[xDD-Master]

People, BiG is in 2 1/2 weeks!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317651

What I would consider first and foremost is trimming the fat, though it's not like I have some huge issues with the current stage list. I just think it could be better.

But it already IS good how it is!


And I would like you answering my:
"What we have right now (10-11 Stages) is pretty much the best compromise we can get, between people that want even more Stages, people that like our stage list how it is, and people that want even less stages.

Its always bad to only catter to one group, so I think we are going the right way with 10-11 Stages, is it allows for a lot of Stage diversity without being completely stupid (Like if we add RC/BS)."

As this basically was my summing up of why we SHOULDNT decrease the stage list.

You know... I'm pretty open for either more or less stages, I just think a happy medium is what we should aim for, as its the best we can do in our situation.

Our 10-11 Stage Stage-List works. There are nearly no complaints at all. With RC/BS there are MANY complaints about those stages, therefore its even reasonable to ban them, as the people how want to include them are only a few. Same applies to people who want FD/BF/SV as the only stages, there ARE people that want this, and I dont want to say that they are wrong or anything, but its just not right to only hear the input of one small group.
And we were fine with 10-11 for a long time now, and we still are fine with 10-11 Stages. In Germany we NEVER had any stage discussions since a LOOOOOOONG time now. This was VERY different in the past, where tournemants sometimes had RC/BS allowed. Always complaints here and there. And then we also had this virus called Cadet, who always wanted even more Stages. But now, everyone just seems happy with what we have. So I just dont see the point of changing it, when its neither broken, nor completely stupid (Well some say PS2 is... but yeah), and its also not problematic in terms of how the community views the stage-list, they like it, and are happy with the variety or they just dont complain, as its "not stupid enough" for them to complain.

So why changing a running system?

PS2 shouldnt be part of good stages, in my opinion.

And why?

 

[Marc]

On a European level I also enjoy the relatively high level of stability. On a more local level though, my country has never really been up in arms about the ruleset, so it wasn't the first thing I was considering. I probably wouldn't change anything big for something international though.

 

[Lord Chair]

I don't understand why Germans want to keep discussing PS2. It's been discussed more than once yet they keep asking for arguments against it.

Like, put it on your stagelist fine idc but stop trying to argue in its favor.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I made my remark for three reasons:

1. The Brawl scene in many ways mirrors the Melee scene, which went through similar developments and ended up with limited stage lists where it mattered.

Melee also has entirely different (and a much smaller) stagelist; never mind gameplay. As Akuma mentioned, this is also a terrible justification for any move in that direction.

2. The Japanese scene is the best in the world. This doesn't necessarily have to do with their ruleset, but it's good practice to at least consider the settings of a superior region. This sentiment is felt by many at the moment.

I actually think this is easy to refute. The idea that the ruleset matters to that degree is stupid. Why? Well, compare the USA (has Brinstar, RC, and had more) to Europe. See how that correlation seems to break down heavily? More reasonable explanations include their ridiculous internet connection allowing for basically lagless wifi, really high densities of extremely talented, hard-working players, and (my personal favorite) the idea that they don't actually try to abuse things, but rather simply work on the basics until it's perfect.

3. In reality several stages are barely picked and the CPs are CPs for a reason: people feel they are less neutral or less fitting of the starter mold. If we are moving towards a scene where there is less of a focus on stage counterpicking (we're already mostly there, our stage list is in some ways an awkward compromise), they will go at some point.

People "feel". People can be very dumb when they put their minds to it.

The one issue I have is that I feel SV and BF are by far the most neutral/best starter stages in the game, with YI a distant third.

Oh for ****'s sake... You do realize you listed two of IC's best stages, two of Falco's best stages, two of Diddy's best stages, and one of Snake's best stages, right? Never mind that YI is a weird-*** counterpick for assorted mid tiers.

This just bugs the crap out of me. Everyone "feels". Nobody thinks.

The reason the counterpick system is important is the same reason that, say, 8 viable characters instead of 3 is – game depth. I really think that without an extremely good reason, we should not limit our stagelist further. RC and Brinstar nerfed game depth, and nuked balance – they had to go. But why continue from there? Why ever keep removing stages?

yoshis island is terrible, not fit for starter. FD or LC are better,

ASDIFJIEOWFHE(GZ§$)GZ§HOFIH"F§("ZRHI"GH

I don't understand why Germans want to keep discussing PS2. It's been discussed more than once yet they keep asking for arguments against it.

Like, put it on your stagelist fine idc but stop trying to argue in its favor.

Indeed, I agree, it's like arguing in favor of gravitational theory – there really is no good reason to do more than what has already been done. There will always be a few dunderheads who disagree.

 

[Marc]

Melee also has entirely different (and a much smaller) stagelist; never mind gameplay.

Melee didn't start out like that, until some years ago it had about 10 stages legal. If you're talking about the game having less stages in general, that's true, but at the same time Brawl's stages have much more to them in terms of unique elements (Melee has nothing like Wario Ware, Pirate Ship, PictoChat etc.), so I don't think you could just assume both have the same percentage of viable stages, if that's what you're getting it.

I actually think this is easy to refute. The idea that the ruleset matters to that degree is stupid. Why? Well, compare the USA (has Brinstar, RC, and had more) to Europe. See how that correlation seems to break down heavily? More reasonable explanations include their ridiculous internet connection allowing for basically lagless wifi, really high densities of extremely talented, hard-working players, and (my personal favorite) the idea that they don't actually try to abuse things, but rather simply work on the basics until it's perfect.

You make a reasonable argument, but the last sentence kind of contradicts it. Having to learn to deal with slippery floors and changes in gravity (for example) is anything but the basics. I'd argue not worrying about counterpicking your opponent puts the focus on your own skill more, but I don't think it accounts for the Japanese success entirely or anything. It's not something black and white, several elements possibly contribute to it, and we should see whether we can learn from that to the extent that we have control.

People "feel". People can be very dumb when they put their minds to it.

At the same time I just see you call people with different opinions "dumb" over and over, which amounts to less than nothing. That sort of debating in itself is nothing, but because it makes you look bad, you really end up with less than nothing.

Oh for ****'s sake... You do realize you listed two of IC's best stages, two of Falco's best stages, two of Diddy's best stages, and one of Snake's best stages, right?

"Neutral stages favouring top tier characters... outrageous!"

The reason the counterpick system is important is the same reason that, say, 8 viable characters instead of 3 is – game depth.

What do you base those numbers on, do you really think removing Castle Siege, Halberd, PS2 and some other stages along those lines makes specific characters less viable? What characters suffer from that so much that they go from viable to unviable?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Melee didn't start out like that, until some years ago it had about 10 stages legal. If you're talking about the game having less stages in general, that's true, but at the same time Brawl's stages have much more to them in terms of unique elements (Melee has nothing like Wario Ware, Pirate Ship, PictoChat etc.), so I don't think you could just assume both have the same percentage of viable stages, if that's what you're getting it.

We have 10 stages which are unquestionably viable in Brawl right now. Yes, I'm using that word correctly. Hell, if it wasn't for the sheer number of people on smashboards who try to tell me otherwise, I'd call it 11. Melee has... 6?

You make a reasonable argument, but the last sentence kind of contradicts it. Having to learn to deal with slippery floors and changes in gravity (for example) is anything but the basics. I'd argue not worrying about counterpicking your opponent puts the focus on your own skill more, but I don't think it accounts for the Japanese success entirely or anything. It's not something black and white, several elements possibly contribute to it, and we should see whether we can learn from that to the extent that we have control.

But there's still no reason to believe that we'd get better results by nuking our stagelist – again, the USA is also better than us by a fairly significant margin, and they have our stagelists, plus RC and Brinstar, which are far more "abnormal" than anything we're using.

At the same time I just see you call people with different opinions "dumb" over and over, which amounts to less than nothing. That sort of debating in itself is nothing, but because it makes you look bad, you really end up with less than nothing.

Ur dumb

"Neutral stages favouring top tier characters... outrageous!"

Ehhh... No. It's not that they're top tiers, therefore they're good everywhere. It's that BF and SV are clearly extremely good stages for these characters. I wouldn't be saying this if, say, they were also similarly good on other stages which are competitively viable – characters like Diddy or Falco don't perform anywhere near as well on stages that aren't (almost entirely) static flat + plat. In fact, it's worth noting that Overswarm picked up a trend worth noting in Melee – the "neutral" stages were the ones that the top tiers performed extremely well on, and there's reason to believe that the cause and effect is the exact opposite of what you believe it to be.

What do you base those numbers on, do you really think removing Castle Siege, Halberd, PS2 and some other stages along those lines makes specific characters less viable? What characters suffer from that so much that they go from viable to unviable?

The numbers were pulled out of a hat because I don't think removing those stages makes anyone less viable, per se, that wasn't the point I was making at all.

 

[Marc]

We have 10 stages which are unquestionably viable in Brawl right now. Yes, I'm using that word correctly.

I like Coke better than Pepsi.

But there's still no reason to believe that we'd get better results by nuking our stagelist – again, the USA is also better than us by a fairly significant margin, and they have our stagelists, plus RC and Brinstar, which are far more "abnormal" than anything we're using.

Depends on the region actually (EC has the smallest stage list and is definitely their strongest region...), but you're being overly defensive about the notion that we should explore what the Japanese are doing better than us. It sucks that we have limited communication with them, but I'm still curious as to how they came to their stage list and would like to experience a tournament under similar settings. I don't think Europe needs the same artificial unity as well... Unity and I doubt some experiments would throw the continent into turmoil overnight. It's not like I'm advocating going Japanese for big internationals or whatever, if push comes to shove I'll probably just consider it for a local I'm planning to host some time before the summer.

At the same time you haven't really gotten across what we stand to gain from not trimming the fat, diversity is overrated.

Ehhh... No. It's not that they're top tiers, therefore they're good everywhere. It's that BF and SV are clearly extremely good stages for these characters. I wouldn't be saying this if, say, they were also similarly good on other stages which are competitively viable – characters like Diddy or Falco don't perform anywhere near as well on stages that aren't (almost entirely) static flat + plat. In fact, it's worth noting that Overswarm picked up a trend worth noting in Melee – the "neutral" stages were the ones that the top tiers performed extremely well on, and there's reason to believe that the cause and effect is the exact opposite of what you believe it to be.

I would have to see what you're basing this on, but you're really mistaken if you think Melee top tiers perform well by virtue of the current limited stage list. With full stage list legality, Fox would be completely broken stagewise, not even talking about something like Hyrule Temple. Peach and Jigglypuff were allowed to pick Mute City and Brinstar till a few years ago, despite the bans they still made grand finals at APEX. To a certain extent neutral/starter stages contribute to what characters perform well by virtue of them emerging when the playerbase considers the settings to be most competitive, but most characters that are good in a vacuum aren't going to magically suck through stage list changes. I also really don't care if Diddy or Falco gets a slight boost under settings I deem to be better, perhaps now they can win a tournament?

The numbers were pulled out of a hat because I don't think removing those stages makes anyone less viable, per se, that wasn't the point I was making at all.

You will have to explain your point then. To start you off, I don't think diversity equals more competitive depth per definition.

 

[Meru.]

Let's not discuss the viability or use of stages: let's just discuss how much we like them. In the end, that's what we are heading to anyway!

 

[Laem]

Not according to BPC.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Trust me, Marc really does prefer Coke to Pepsi.

 

[Marc]

I prefer Coke to life.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

YI and LC suck and if we're running three starts use like PS1.

PS1 is pretty darn neutral and the only things I imagine changing matchups much is the infinitely thin edge and the fact that Wario gets to charge them farts/Peach gets to farm dat turnip/whatever on certain transformations.

I'd rather have that than ****ing LYLAT CRUISE TILTING MY ASS or a RANDOM GHOST PLATFORM/SHY GUY

hahahah brawl

also dreamland should be banned in melee. **** the wind, seriously.

 

[Lord Chair]

xonar putting so much stress to his own salt, entire game is about wario

ps1 is by no means a viable neutral

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Good job skimming bro

 

[Lord Chair]

theres like 100000 reasons for ps1 not to be a viable neutral and you only name 2 of them

 

[-Jumpman-]

PS1 pretty neutral and viable.

 

[Greward]

ps1 sucks balls.
walls, windmill. thats it. it sucks.

yi got random hazards and some terrible matchups (though we dont really care). the ground ****s sh autocancels. platform tilts too, which isnt a reason to say that this is a bad stage imo but i just though of remembering it (like that LC tilts)

fd has got terrible MU, it hasnt got random hazards.

LC has got a tilting stage and thats it, which isnt a good reason to ban. no random hazards either
huh i remembered u can't walljump on LC

 

[Laem]

But did you *****s know you can platformcancel on shadow moses HMMMM? Bet you didn't know.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion, except that your parents are on it so it's really tragic.

I hate it when I'm wrong.

 

[istudying]

http://www.smash-bros.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=915&p=50812#p50812

 

[Blubolouis]

...probably around Blubo's Level, which should be a bit under Dueler X's level...

damn son

you just got exposed

edit: well you beat him back, I stand corrected.

 

[Laem]

damn son

you just got exposed

edit: well you beat him back, I stand corrected.

From which ancient time did that quote even come from and what is this at all?!

 

[xDD-Master]

Woot xpppp

 

[Dueler X]

damn son

you just got exposed

edit: well you beat him back, I stand corrected.

But our matches were so intense, like our first match in Winner brackets where you could hear in the air "NO, IT CAN'T BE TRUE !", hope these will get uploaded very soon

 

[Blubolouis]

Is there an "official uploader" for this tourney?

What or where are the results?

Did you g€t $om€ ca$h, Dueler?

 

[Dueler X]

Results will be up tonight, I don't remember how much prize money I won though (maybe around 25€).
I'll ask Gheb or Hornz about uploading.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't know why I always end up being responsible for tournament related things.
Everytime somebody hosts a tourney it ends with "I'll ask Gheb about XY".

I left the tourney before the singles bracket even started so I know about as much as anybody else who didn't attend the tourney.

 

[crifer]

maaaaan,
About which tourney are you guys talking??
Results?

edit: damn, my 1.000 post.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

BiG

1st Lp
2nd Akuma
3rd Dueler
4th vyQ

 

[Blubolouis]

@Crifer a small tourney in austria.

vyQ plays falco, right?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Indeed, he does.

 

[crifer]

Austria is, except for Lp, somehow free. freeustria.

 

[xDD-Master]

But our matches were so intense, like our first match in Winner brackets where you could hear in the air "NO, IT CAN'T BE TRUE !", hope these will get uploaded very soon

Yeah <3
Were some funny matches

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Austria is, except for Lp, somehow free. freeustria.

True.

Most of us would **** you tho

 

[Luigi player]

69 entrants total

1: Mr-R
2: Orion
3: Leon
4: Luigi_player
5: Quiksilver
5: Crysis
7: Tay
7: Bjay
9: Snopy
9: Staco
9: HoRnZ
9: reaper
13: Sword
13: Sic
13: Biggad
13: Desti
17: Yoh
17: Kunai
17: Eddy
17: Xonar
17: ChoZo
17: Yikarur
17: Semifer
17: Chair

Yeah, austria does indeed look very free.

 

[Lord Chair]

Austria probably has highest average skill level of any country in the world.

So yeah, **** you Gheb. Austria > Japan > Rest of EU > USA

 

[~ Gheb ~]

o

k