On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[Ripple]

damage makes a ridiculous difference in KBG

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Well damage is tied to kb, so the higher percent difference could balance the difference in kbg....idk for certain though.

 

[Shadic]

KBG and damage are related. Which is why stale moves in Brawl lowered KB - The game took the lower damage from the staled move and used that in its KB calculation.

 

[leelue]

Because when shield RELEASE was a strong oos option like brawl, it was really really good and you can already wd oos. For shield release to be viable it would need to be at least as effective as wd oos which at that point wd oos is pointless since you could walk run wd or attack straight out of a release.

Why is having wd oos better than shield release > shield release better than wd oos?
One is the simplest way to drop your shield. I don't understand why there should be something more complex than just letting go of shield that's faster than just letting go of shield.

 

[The_NZA]

I don't know, leelue, part of smash has this satisfying aspect where the better you are, the more you can make your characters move in dynamic ways. Wdashing out of shield is one of those things.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sure, but if wavedashing out of shield is patently better all the time, what's the point of even letting characters drop their shield in such a position in the first place? If more options is what people are looking for, dropping one's shield should at least have some sort of situational advantage, even if it's just a couple of extra frames to work with. That way, people would get to make a choice on what would be better for each situation instead of mindlessly defaulting to one specific option every time.

 

[Vashimus]

Well, I mean... you could argue the same about L-cancelling.

 

[The_NZA]

...incoming.

Well, I think you are right. There probably ought to be a choice there. How would you suggest tailoring that choice? What should you be able to do by shield dropping that shouldn't be accomplishable by WDing?

 

[Jandlebars]

Well, I mean... you could argue the same about L-cancelling.

I don't think we're suppose to mention the L-C word around here. >___>

I agree with what Reflex said, though. It'd be nice if there were more benefit to shield-dropping.
Or....shield-'releasing'. You know which one I mean.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The only thing I can think of that would still give players an interesting, thoughtful choice to make would be to make it cancelable by Attack commands very late in the shield drop animation. That way, they would still be limited to the spot they're in (rather than being able to, say, dash -> whatever, which would make it obviously superior to wavedash out-of-shield) and to a specific set of moves (which would be baitable, at least, in theory).

That said, it would require the offensive player to have better spacing in some cases, and it would probably open up a huge can of worms with characters' Jabs being able to stuff some currently-frame-tight shield pressure, though it is not unlike Shine out-of-shield for defending yourself when your opponent is right on top of you, which should be a rare occurrence. It would still throw off the balance for a huge amount of scenarios.

I'd personally rather see a form of parrying for the cast, where a powershield could be canceled into anything. That encourages excellent timing and good reads, and it basically functions as the same choice in high-level play.

 

[Vashimus]

I don't think we're suppose to mention the L-C word around here. >___>

I'm just saying. I don't see how you can complain about WD OoS being better than just shield dropping, when you have other similar instances where there's no reason not to use a better option as there's no penalty (L-canceling, footstooling) that are already in the game. Seems kind of hypocritical.

 

[Jolteon]

You can already do that with PS. <.<

 

[The_NZA]

I'm just saying. I don't see how you can complain about WD OoS being better than just shield dropping, when you have other similar instances where there's no reason not to use a better option as there's no penalty (L-canceling, footstooling) that are already in the game. Seems kind of hypocritical.

Actually L-canceling is the only example where that applies. There are plenty of strategic moments not to footstool (it denies you other aerial options sometimes).

 

[The_NZA]

The only thing I can think of that would still give players an interesting, thoughtful choice to make would be to make it cancelable by Attack commands very late in the shield drop animation. That way, they would still be limited to the spot they're in (rather than being able to, say, dash -> whatever, which would make it obviously superior to wavedash out-of-shield) and to a specific set of moves (which would be baitable, at least, in theory).

That said, it would require the offensive player to have better spacing in some cases, and it would probably open up a huge can of worms with characters' Jabs being able to stuff some currently-frame-tight shield pressure, though it is not unlike Shine out-of-shield for defending yourself when your opponent is right on top of you, which should be a rare occurrence. It would still throw off the balance for a huge amount of scenarios.

I'd personally rather see a form of parrying for the cast, where a powershield could be canceled into anything. That encourages excellent timing and good reads, and it basically functions as the same choice in high-level play.

One idea to change it would be to make it so either perfect shielding functioned the way you did, which would give you an incentive in some situations. Or, you can make it so that smashing out of shield release is faster than WD smashing, which would give you some reasons to shield release over wavedashing, but you'd avoid the jab problems.

 

[Vashimus]

Actually L-canceling is the only example where that applies. There are plenty of strategic moments not to footstool (it denies you other aerial options sometimes).

The footstool activates on frame 1 and automatically happens if you are in range when you do it. You don't have to commit yourself into anything, as you can OS an aerial in there to hit in case you miss the footstool. You don't get denied any action, you're free to do whatever you want during the footstool.

 

[Jandlebars]

I'm just saying. I don't see how you can complain about WD OoS being better than just shield dropping, when you have other similar instances where there's no reason not to use a better option as there's no penalty (L-canceling, footstooling) that are already in the game. Seems kind of hypocritical.

I understood what you meant, of course. I was just having some fun.
Not sure if Foot-stool jumps would be in the same category. I mean, yeah, if you're in a position where it's far more beneficial to just send your opponent tumbling to their doom instead of potentially whiffing an aerial, and you're already within reach to execute a Foot-stool, then you'd just Foot-stool them. There's a number of situations where it's not optimal to go for it, though.

EDIT:

The footstool activates on frame 1 and automatically happens if you are in range when you do it. You don't have to commit yourself into anything, as you can OS an aerial in there to hit in case you miss the footstool. You don't get denied any action, you're free to do whatever you want during the footstool.

I understand what you mean here, though. I don't think it's completely in the same basket as L-Cancelling, though, since the current iteration of a Foot-stool hasn't been a decade old. If people ever start complaining about it early enough, then it might be changed, but it's still a 'new' thing.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If an opponent is doing any option (aerial, B move for recovery, etc.), a successful footstool just puts you way too far away to actually intercept their recovery. There are negative points to the assumed option-select.

 

[Jandlebars]

If an opponent is doing any option (aerial, B move for recovery, etc.), a successful footstool just puts you way too far away to actually intercept their recovery. There are negative points to the assumed option-select.

That's more or less what I was trying to get at, yeah.

 

[leelue]

Well, I mean... you could argue the same about L-cancelling.

Even I try not to win this argument. Even though I'm not saying that you are right or wrong.

 

[Vashimus]

I know how you feel about L-canceling Leelue. You were quite vocal about it iirc.

 

[leelue]

I hate everything that makes the game more complex without being necessary, with exception to flavorful or really cool things. Especially hated if it adds frustration, like wallcling or falling offstage with dash attacks that don't come from dkc.
Necessary does not equal useful, before I get people saying "but I urr mindgame ma friends."

 

[The_NZA]

EDITED:

l-canceling is such an entrenched part of the melee metagame at all levels, and its fun to see that distinction of skill and (to use Starcraft terms) APM (actions per minute) commitment. Also, it opens up opportunities to punish.

But most things in the game that are less fundamental (like WDing out of shield) should be crafted around options and choices. Shield release should have a purpose, and there should be a choice made to WD OOS or not to. That's fairly universal by game design.

 

[leelue]

I don't think I'd call a mechanic I literally would not notice gone a part of the metagame. It adds to the game like one out of every 100 times it is used.

Also, can you please translate the second half of that? I don't know what you mean.

 

[CyberZixx]

How on earth would you not notice if L canceling was gone? It is a technique that any player needs to learn, and it valuable for all characters. It opens up so many combo options and makes your movement much faster and you become harder to punish. Melee would not be played the same at all without L canceling. I like the mechanic a lot myself.

 

[The_NZA]

How on earth would you not notice if L canceling was gone? It is a technique that any player needs to learn, and it valuable for all characters. It opens up so many combo options and makes your movement much faster and you become harder to punish. Melee would not be played the same at all without L canceling. I like the mechanic a lot myself.

I think leelue likely means wd out of shield.

 

[CyberZixx]

Oh, I just seen the last handful of responses. Pardon my ignorance. WD OOS is far less important than L canceling put still nice to know.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Despite the fact that Manual L-Canceling has been in this game for over 3 years and I’ve been unsuccessful so far, I am going to continue to argue against Manual L-Canceling and demand Aerial Lag Reduction instead. Am I going to win?
No.

 

[Scythe]

Wd oos is really important. Learn it and use it.

 

[Vashimus]

L-canceling is like second nature to me now, I can't go back Kinky.

I wonder, what if the wavedash never existed...

 

[leelue]

I meant l canceling. I wouldn't notice if it was gone because you just do it. There's no choice. You just do it. There's no mental space taken up when you have it down. No strategy. It's just there exercising my finger.
Sure, every 50th time I try I miss it. So every once and a while I leave myself open for 11 frames and every once and a while you get a punish. Or mango angles his shield to try and throw Drpp. But for the other, much much much larger portion if game time, it us either frustrating newbies or being background information and useless.
If it was gone and all endlag was adjusted accordingly, I wouldn't notice.
In the meantime I just do it and feel bad for the poor people who have to deal with ridiculous rite of passage that further proves that sakurai is a bumbling mongoloid.



And yeah that second half of the edited post is something I believe in.

 

[Oro?!]

You should call Capcom and tell them to remove combos from their games. All of the inputs are arbitrary anyways since they hardly get dropped at high levels out of hitconfirms. Screw the nuances of resets, combos dropping, or different types of knockdowns for oki. All the combo system does is provide an arbitrary gap for low level players or used in specific situational combo enders.

 

[leelue]

Yeah I don't think that's an adequate analogy. I mean,. there's a reason to drop a combo, right? Or change it into something. Right? But what do I know I don't know anything about other games. I literally only play smash.
I can't even tell if that sarcasm is for or against me lol.

 

[leelue]

Also, I need to restate this before the thread gets locked that I am not arguing to eliminate L canceling. I don't argue for something I really don't expect to have even the slightest chance at getting changed. It pains me, but I don't think it's possible.
I am just telling you why I think it's a bad mechanic. It's almost trivial. If smash had, idk, endlag on falcos lasers BUT you could Lcancel it to be lagless, it'd be something similar. It's just the system that for some reason the people who have the most power in the BR grandfathered us into.

 

[Vashimus]

And now, Shadic faces a difficult decision. Will he lock the thread for being derailed? Will shield dropping be made to be a viable tactic? Will footstooling end up seeing more use in players other than Reflex? Should Fox's Up Smash be nerfed? Will Oro prove ZSS is top once and for all so there can be a hate thread for her?

Tune in next week for the answers, in the exciting conclusion of "On the topic of Fox and Falco hate"

 

[leelue]

I like Vashimus

Also, I footstool with snake. But only out of down throw.

Anyone have anything interesting to say about Fox or falco? or even wolf?
Actually, is wolf's shine frame 1 with invincibility?

 

[Bones0]

And now, Shadic faces a difficult decision. Will he lock the thread for being derailed? Will shield dropping be made to be a viable tactic? Will footstooling end up seeing more use in players other than Reflex? Should Fox's Up Smash be nerfed? Will Oro prove ZSS is top once and for all so there can be a hate thread for her?

Tune in next week for the answers, in the exciting conclusion of "On the topic Fox and Falco hate"

I shield drop all the time.

 

[Jandlebars]

I like Vashimus

Also, I footstool with snake. But only out of down throw.

Anyone have anything interesting to say about Fox or falco? or even wolf?
Actually, is wolf's shine frame 1 with invincibility?

I love Wolf.
I mean, I'm kinda bad with him, but I feel like I actually play better as him than I do in comparison to Fox and Falco. Still do stupid crap with him that gets me killed, of course, but there's more...comfort, to it. It actually feels more fun to play as a Spacie that, while functionally similar, still has a lot of eccentricities that diversify him from Fox/Falco.

 

[standardtoaster]

yes, wolf's shine is frame 1 w/ invinc

 

[Oro?!]

It wasn't sarcasm and there isn't a reason to ever drop a combo. I would toss potential reset situations into the combo ender section since they are basically frame calculated traps to force a new combo. It's basically the same thing as in Smash where your opponent exits hitstun and you call what their jump or attack they will do and keep your string going by using an option to beat what they do and hit them again. Those enders are basically very specific nuances that are applied to specific situations. You might use a different ender based on your current meter, your opponents meter, their life bar, or your oki game vs their wakeup game.

 

[The_NZA]

Okay, so lets not take the bait and have THAT conversation.