On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[Scythe]

there's not really a term for dropping your sheild in melee cause it's garbage, just pay attention to the conversation.

 

[standardtoaster]

Yup. Just easier to annotate the speed at which your shield drops by calling it shield dropping. Reading into the context of conversations can be pretty helpful.

Also @ Sveet I'm not really sure on the frame data for it, but I'm sure someone like Standardtoaster could definitely post that.

almost every shield drop in pm is ~14 frames

 

[SpiderMad]

What's it in Melee? You mean it varies by character?

 

[standardtoaster]

[collapse=Melee drop times]Group A
---14 frames recovery time
---3 characters: Jigglypuff / Peach / Zelda

Group B
---15 frames recovery time
---14 characters: DK / Dr. Mario / Falco / Fox / Ice Climbers / Kirby / Link / Luigi / Mario / Ness / Pichu / Pikachu / Sheik / Young Link

Group C
---16 frames recovery time
---8 characters: Bowser / Captain Falcon / Ganondorf / Marth / Mewtwo / Mr. Game & Watch / Roy / Samus

Group D
---17 frames recovery time
---1 character: Yoshi [/collapse]

[collapse=Project M drop times]Group A
---13 frames recovery time
---3 characters: Peach, Zelda, Jigglypuff


Group B
---14 frames recovery time
---35 characters: Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Wario, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Falcon, Link, Toon Link, Sheik, Ganondorf, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu, Lucario, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Ness, Lucas, Marth, Ike, Dedede, Pit, ROB, Mr. Game & Watch, Snake, Sonic[/collapse]

 

[Vashimus]

Get your **** together, Yoshi.

 

[Wizzrobe]

there's not really a term for dropping your sheild in melee cause it's garbage, just pay attention to the conversation.

Shield dropping is very good, it's just that very few people use it.

 

[Scythe]

Shield dropping is very good, it's just that very few people use it.

lol i'm not even sure which one you are talking about now

 

[Professor Pro]

Shield dropping is very good, it's just that very few people use it.

If you're talking about shield dropping on platforms, then yes, it is very good, whether it's the one where you are moving and then you quickly use it to drop through the platform, or the stationary one in your shield when you can drop through with an attack.

If you're talking about just standing there with your shield and then letting go of the shield button and then proceeding, then no, that's not very good lol.

 

[Oro?!]

Do they teach reading comprehension in Florida?

 

[Jolteon]

I think he's talking about stationary shield dropping, I think it's useful against attacks that beat shield grabs but lose to CC grab/CC in general. You can drop your shield and CC grab jab pressure etc.

 

[The_NZA]

crouch cancel grab? am i missing something here. why would you crouch cancel and grab?

 

[Professor Pro]

I think he's talking about stationary shield dropping, I think it's useful against attacks that beat shield grabs but lose to CC grab/CC in general. You can drop your shield and CC grab jab pressure etc.

Well this was mostly referring to punishing laggy moves OoS. In that specific situation it is useful but it's not really an overall good technique

crouch cancel grab? am i missing something here. why would you crouch cancel and grab?

...Crouch cancel grab is amazing in a lot of situation
Marth can CC a Fox's Nair/Bair and grab him before he has the chance to hit the floor and shine (unless they do a near perfect aerial near the ground, but im not referring to perfect situations) and he reaps a lot from grabs in that MU.
Fox can CC a move like Sheik's Fair and get a Grab and U-Throw > Uair
These are just two examples, this technique happens quite a lot at high level play for poorly spaced aerials and characters who benefit from grabs, happens less at top level play because they know about it and try to avoid it, but it still happens

 

[Jolteon]

crouch cancel grab? am i missing something here. why would you crouch cancel and grab?

It's the best punish from CC for a lot of characters.

Well this was mostly referring to punishing laggy moves OoS. In that specific situation it is useful but it's not really an overall good technique

Yeah, true, particularly when you compare it to Brawl's. @.@

 

[SpiderMad]

What's the DMG/KB/BKB for Bowser's F-smash compared to Fox's Up-smash? Besides the shield damage being put on yolo mode

 

[Kink-Link5]

Just call it Shield Passing and get the confusion over with.

 

[SpiderMad]

Or Shield Release

 

[Kink-Link5]

Shield Passing for platform passing in a shield
Shield Drop for dropping your shield

or

Shield Dropping for dropping while in a shield
Shield Release for releasing your shield

Both make far more sense than what we have now.

 

[leelue]

I'm upset that dropping your shield, a normal game action, isn't more useful.
There's no reason why the lag it takes to drop your shield shouldn't be reasonably shorter than the time it takes to WD OOS
Stupid melee
Stupid Yoshi

 

[SpiderMad]

Yoshi's reduced options from not being able to jump out of shield and horrible shield release timing make him have to accommodate with platform dropping/being on platforms (and rolling/spotdodge) just as other character's weaknesses make them unique by being more reliant on something (even more exaggerated example: GnW's/Ganon's non-existent on certain aerials/bad L-cancel timings in Melee make him reliant on Auto-canceling everything like a Brawl character)

They're probably going to give Yoshi the ability to jump out of shield and normal shield release just cus though, which I might agree since it's just so dramatic but I'll still feel like he's missing a unique characteristic rather than seeing it as just completely a mean curse like M2's too huge tail hurtbox or GnW's near non-existent shield (which you could argue made him more reliant on not using it just like Yoshi lol). I believe they already made him able to Jump out of shield in SDR, so It's pretty unlikely they'll keep it in P:M.

Then there's his Perry he had with his shield, I hope that's still in although I think it was said to be slightly broken (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gTPfP_a6HBQ#t=89s

Also if shield release was shorter than it already is in P:M it'd probly be broken like many character's spot dodges are in Brawl (Reflex has paragraphs of hate for that, biggest disdain he has for Brawl I think)

While the 14 or so frame animation of the shield release goes on, is the shield still active during the whole thing until it's over? What if someone hits you does it remain up? Or is it only active for the first 4 frames of the animation then the next 10 are just animation to a normal stance?

 

[GMaster171]

What's the DMG/KB/BKB for Bowser's F-smash compared to Fox's Up-smash? Besides the shield damage being put on yolo mode

Bowser: 26 damage, BKB=50, KBG=100
Fox: 18 damage, BKB=30, KBG=112

Because I got nothing better to do right now
G&W u-smash: 23 Damage, BKB=40, KBG=96
Pikachu U-smash: 19 Damage, BKB=40, KBG=110
Ike f-smash: 25 damage, BKB=45, KBG=100
Rest: 28 damage, BKB=78, KBG=120 0.0
Zelda bair: 21 Damage, BKB=35, KBG=100

all assuming best spot hits (Zelda's critical sweetspot)

 

[Ace55]

Ok we need to buff Bowsers Fsmash d:

 

[Strong Badam]

buff 40 things instead of nerfing 1! it'll be worth it, I promise~

 

[Ace55]

It was a joke Strong Mad. Bowsers Fsmash is awesome as it is.

 

[JOE!]

I like how only rest has more KBG

Could we also compare the frames of each of the moves comparable in power to Fox Usmash?

 

[The_NZA]

Just curious...why and when would you crouch cancel grab instead of shield grabbing? Is it because of the pushback you sustain in shield? Because shield grabs are relatively fast, aren't they (I don't know the frame data off hand)?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fox: 18 damage, BKB=30, KBG=112
Pikachu U-smash: 19 Damage, BKB=40, KBG=110

This is what is interesting to me, since it shows the raw power behind just a small amount more KBG. Even when Pikachu's has a head start and more damage behind it effecting the knockback, Fox's still pulls ahead and starts killing sooner.

 

[standardtoaster]

you don't sustain the shield stun if you crouch cancel. it can be a better option at times

 

[Warhawk]

This is what is interesting to me, since it shows the raw power behind just a small amount more KBG. Even when Pikachu's has a head start and more damage behind it effecting the knockback, Fox's still pulls ahead and starts killing sooner.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying or its different from melee, but I could have sworn Pikachu's upsmash kills slightly sooner than Fox's.

 

[The_NZA]

Guess it depends how much knockback growth matters *shrugs*. It also would dependo n the weight of an enemy. I think a heavier character will sustain more damage before he can be usmashed...the more damage a character can sustain, the better fox's usmash becomes over pikas.

 

[Shadic]

This is what is interesting to me, since it shows the raw power behind just a small amount more KBG. Even when Pikachu's has a head start and more damage behind it effecting the knockback, Fox's still pulls ahead and starts killing sooner.

The marginal KBG difference matters way less than the damage and BKB. Go check with the knockback calculators that are out there, Pikachu's should kill like 10% earlier or something at first glance.

 

[GMaster171]

I like how only rest has more KBG

Could we also compare the frames of each of the moves comparable in power to Fox Usmash?

Yus, first frames for hitting of the moves I listed:
Fox: 7
Bowser: 26
Zelda: 5
Jiggs: 1
G&W: 24
Ike: 30
Pikachu: 9
Zelda's is quick, but this is because it is an aerial. The fastest she can do this from a grounded position is 9 frames (10 if her jumpsquat is 5, idk right now)
Anything else?

 

[Wizzrobe]

Do they teach reading comprehension in Florida?

I can't comprehend anything after I have eaten Red Velvet.

 

[Jolteon]

Just curious...why and when would you crouch cancel grab instead of shield grabbing? Is it because of the pushback you sustain in shield? Because shield grabs are relatively fast, aren't they (I don't know the frame data off hand)?

Some block strings will have enough frame advantage to allow your opponent to use a grounded move (typically jab) that will hit you before you shield grab them, so in these situations it's better to just let go of your shield and cc grab them.

 

[Kink-Link5]

What are the KB angles in comparing Fox and Pikachu's U-smashes?

 

[GMaster171]

Pikachu: 85
Fox:80
Both are measured from the horizontal, therefore Pikachu has a slightly better angle for vertical kills.

 

[The_NZA]

So overall, Pika has better BKB, Fox has better KBG, Fox has better speed, Pika has better angle

what about cooldown?

 

[Oro?!]

I'm upset that dropping your shield, a normal game action, isn't more useful.
There's no reason why the lag it takes to drop your shield shouldn't be reasonably shorter than the time it takes to WD OOS
Stupid melee
Stupid Yoshi

Because when shield RELEASE was a strong oos option like brawl, it was really really good and you can already wd oos. For shield release to be viable it would need to be at least as effective as wd oos which at that point wd oos is pointless since you could walk run wd or attack straight out of a release.

 

[GMaster171]

Might as well post everything in that case:
Pikachu: startup 5
Sweetspots from 9-11, dealing 17-19 (closer doing more damage), BKB 50 for all hitboxes, KBG 110 (100 for tip of tail), sending at an angle of 85 degrees.
hitbox from 12-14, dealing 13 damage, BKB 40, KBG 110, sending at an angle of 90 degrees.
sourspot from 15-18, dealing 7 damage, BKB 5, KBG 48 sending at an angle of 40 degrees (it seems this is measured from behind Pikachu)
45 total frames (without charging)

Fox:
Sweetspots from 7-8, dealing 18 damage,30 BKB, 112 KBG, sending at a angle of 80 degrees. Head (not snout) is invincible until this hitbox ends.
sourspot from 9-17, dealing 13 damage,10 BKB, 100 KBG, sending at the sakurai angle
43 total frames (without charge)

This is all assuming I'm reading BB correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Shadic]

So overall, Pika has better BKB, Fox has better KBG, Fox has better speed, Pika has better angle

what about cooldown?

Like I said already, Pikachu's KBG/damage stats mean that it grows in KB more than Fox's.

 

[The_NZA]

...but the higher the KBG, usually that means it grows better. How could that be?