On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[9bit_alt]

She looks like Chyna...

 

[CyberZixx]

She does not look that masculine to me. Even if she did, so what, she is supposed to be strong. Her outfit is far better than her ridiculous iconic one.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

To me she looks like she really has to pee and simply does not have the time to wait in the line at the club

 

[Nausicaa]

And wants to push her way through the line but is holding herself back because it might 'trickle' if she acts too quickly and forcefully.

 

[9bit_alt]

Guys stop ur givin me a chub

...

Oh, right. Fox and Falco... well uh, they're lame. What's up with Falco's dair, like seriously.

 

[CyberZixx]

Falco's dair is a silly move. What was the downside of that move when they were making it?

 

[Nausicaa]

It doesn't hit the top left/right points of the blast zone every time. Sometimes it reaches there, but only if he's at the VERY top of the screen, and usually it's too fast to notice.
Otherwise it's a pretty good move, hits hard in a decent area or something. Not too sure about it's application, never seen it in use. Someone sure try Dair sometime, heard it's good.

 

[SpiderMad]

Not a repost *
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqS1HCer1hE

 

[Kink-Link5]

Nice shield mario.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Not a repost *
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqS1HCer1hE

In this video: A falco that knows how to play the game vs a mario that will not stop jumping into the ****

 

[Phaiyte]

In this video: A falco that knows how to play the game vs a mario that will not stop jumping into the ****

Whyyyyyyyy is this a related video D:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-uTdbCjRoY&NR=1&feature=endscreen

 

[Vashimus]

-Watches Mario get Daired to death-

Me: Okay, this guy's probably a new player.

-Mario spawns back, does a Dair and L-cancels it-

Me: ...Or he's just stupid.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hey, we all jump into the **** sometimes. Most of us just don't let our friends put it on youtube.

 

[GMaster171]

If people never ran into ****, do you know how rare (but impressive) combo videos would be?

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Not a repost *
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqS1HCer1hE

Either shield button is broken, or they're simply horrible at strategy

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

IMHO the hitboxes are fine, it's just that they look really high because of interpolation.

Also, in case people were curious, here's the hitboxes and frame data for Fox's USmash taken from this thread.

Total: 41
Hit: 7-17
Head invincible (but not snout): 1-9
Charge frame: 2

Rather than changing the power/knockback of Fox's Up Smash, possibly adding a few frames for the attack's cooldown might be a better alternative. Raising the total frames from 41 to 43-49 might do the trick. This way, Fox players can still keep the kills they get off of a successful Up Smash, and they can still time their Up Smashes as they normally could...though they will be slightly more punishable on wiff or block. This should reduce excessive spamming of the move slightly, and allow other characters more of a chance to get in on Fox if they successfully predict his attack. My only concern about doing this is that it will nerf Fox's combo potential after a successful Up Smash. Then again, Fox has a monolith of of other options to choose from even if that were to happen.

Or, you know, PAL changes. Those could work, too.

EDIT: Briefly went to look back at the Melee frame data for each characters' respective smash attacks. Increasing the total frames of Fox's Up Smash from 41 to 45 seems like it would be perfect, give or take one frame.

 

[The_NZA]

The cool down solution isn't a bad one. Afterall, you really should'n't be able to throw a blind smash out with any character without getting punished...I bet you almost every high level game with fox's has whiffed usmashes going unpunished.

 

[Scythe]

just because it goes unpunished doesn't mean it's unpunishable.

 

[B.W.]

The strength of the attack kind of warrants it to be more punishable than it is though. Sure it can be punished, but that doesn't mean it's easy to do so, which is why it often goes unpunished.

Pikachu's U-Smash is used as a constant comparison. Fox's U-Smash is almost as strong, with the character being way more mobile than Pikachu, yet Pikachu's U-Smash is much more punishable than Fox's on whiff.

 

[9bit_alt]

Add a frame or two to shine's startup, add lots of ending lag to Fox's upsmash. Done.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I agree with what Project-05 said. Because it prevents things like this:

yeah, basically. I spammed upsmash because I could.
and it's hilarious

Adding more cooldown to Fox's strongest smash wouldn't nerf his killing potential, though it would provide a nerf to his staying power should a player fail to land his Up Smash. Considering the startup speed the move has, as well as Fox's speed in general, I would say more cooldown is a fair trade.

@9bit: Ah, I missed your post. My apologies.

 

[The_NZA]

just because it goes unpunished doesn't mean it's unpunishable.

So usually, in logic, you use comparative relations to understand function.

I said:

"The cool down solution isn't a bad one. Afterall, you really should'n't be able to throw a blind smash out with any character without getting punished...I bet you almost every high level game with fox's has whiffed usmashes going unpunished."

In this sentence, I'm doing two things.
1. making a comparison between every character's ability to throw smashes safely and fox's
2. analyzing high level play to determine how easy or uneasy it is to punish those smashes

Simply yelling things doesn't mean you are logically proving they are inconsistent or addressing them.

 

[Professor Pro]

LOL @ complaining at Fox U-Smash speed.
Are you people living in 'Slow reflex world' where you can't punish anything?

I punish fox like 95% of the time for whiffing an U-smash next to me or on my shield....apparently these figures aren't universally shared.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

W

LOL @ complaining at Fox U-Smash speed.
Are you people living in 'Slow reflex world' where you can't punish anything?

I punish fox like 95% of the time for whiffing an U-smash next to me or on my shield....apparently these figures aren't universally shared.

What do you punish it with, out of curiosity?

 

[BryE]

LOL @ complaining at Fox U-Smash speed.
Are you people living in 'Slow reflex world' where you can't punish anything?

I punish fox like 95% of the time for whiffing an U-smash next to me or on my shield....apparently these figures aren't universally shared.

I get stupid punishes from a whiffed/blocked Fox Upsmash. Hell I have more trouble trying to punish Mario's whiffed/shielded smash attacks than punishing Fox's. It's not hard to punish unless you have pretty bad reaction time.

I don't think it should have more cooldown. Maybe a bit less knockback but that's another story.

 

[Professor Pro]

W


What do you punish it with, out of curiosity?

Depends on what character I am and if I have OoS killing or combo move and stage positioning or the opponents percent since I might want to use another move in a certain situation, there's no punish I ALWAYS punish it with because it's situation and character dependant, but a free grab is pretty much a universal punishment for that whiff.

A Safe move to spam on shield would be something like Peach's D-Smash, and even that's punishable but with strict timing.

 

[metroid1117]

Depends on what character I am and if I have OoS killing or combo move and stage positioning or the opponents percent since I might want to use another move in a certain situation, there's no punish I ALWAYS punish it with because it's situation and character dependant, but a free grab is pretty much a universal punishment for that whiff.

A Safe move to spam on shield would be something like Peach's D-Smash, and even that's punishable but with strict timing.

Just curious, can you punish a shielded Fox USmash with C4 sticky OoS? If not, how would you typically punish it?

 

[Professor Pro]

Just curious, can you punish a shielded Fox USmash with C4 sticky OoS? If not, how would you typically punish it?

Yes you can punish it with a C4 stick OoS, but you are sort of open afterwards to get hit since it's not the most lagless free move.

The best thing to do would be either to Up B OoS or just grab, which can lead to a CG which results in a C4 stick anyway

 

[The_NZA]

I might be wrong here, but given the pushback his usmash does on the shield of many characters, doesn't a running grab become an unfeasable punish?

 

[Professor Pro]

You have enough time to wavedash OoS shield and grab.
I'm not sure about running grab, because to run and grab you would have to drop your shield down normally and then run and then grab and the dropping the shield down normally is what would waste a lot of time. So you shouldn't be doing that in the first place lol.

Just wavedash OoS and grab if the U-Smash is spaced in a way a grab won't get them.

 

[JOE!]

doesn't that also depend on the character's WD?

 

[Professor Pro]

Well the average wavedash will be able to get them, and wavedash's can always be spaced.

This is like 2007 Melee knowledge anyway, Fox U-Smash is not safe on shield lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

In melee, shield dropping takes approximately the same amount of time as wavedashing (depends on the character, for some shield dropping is faster). Wavedashing has the added benefit of moving during your lag, however this isn't necessary for all punishes. Many characters can simply drop their shield and do a quick smash or tilt. Dash -> grab should also work, depending on your character.

just because it goes unpunished doesn't mean it's unpunishable.

 

[Oro?!]

Shield dropping is way faster than it was in Melee though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh yeah, i meant to go on that tangent but i forgot. Plus i don't know the details, how much faster is it?

 

[leelue]

I would like to know as well.

 

[Wizzrobe]

It isn't faster than in melee, it is just done slighly differently because the angle is slightly more specific than it was in Melee because shield dropping in PM is the exact same shield drop as in brawl.http://www.ssbwiki.com/Shield_platform_dropping look at what it says about shield dropping in brawl.

 

[Professor Pro]

It isn't faster than in melee, it is just done slighly differently because the angle is slightly more specific than it was in Melee because shield dropping in PM is the exact same shield drop as in brawl.http://www.ssbwiki.com/Shield_platform_dropping look at what it says about shield dropping in brawl.

I'm pretty sure Oro was talking about the speed your shield drops from standing in a neutral position shielding and letting go of the shield button and not how fast you drop through a platform while shielding.

 

[Oro?!]

Yup. Just easier to annotate the speed at which your shield drops by calling it shield dropping. Reading into the context of conversations can be pretty helpful.

Also @ Sveet I'm not really sure on the frame data for it, but I'm sure someone like Standardtoaster could definitely post that.

 

[Wizzrobe]

I'm pretty sure Oro was talking about the speed your shield drops from standing in a neutral position shielding and letting go of the shield button and not how fast you drop through a platform while shielding.

well in Melee people call it shield dropping, if he is from Brawl community I could see the misunderstanding.