olimar matchup stage counterpicks: anything you want to fill in not already filled on

[Dyyne]

I think that olimar's three bad stages (RC, frigate, and japes), should be looked at a bit more, instead of just immediately thought to always be horrifically bad. And I like frigate as well.

They aren't thought of as horrifically bad (imo, at least), they are just though of as worse than other stages, so why not ban them? Of course some chars may have other stages that should be cp'd instead if they excel on them, but these 3 are pretty reliable if you are unsure what to ban.

And dabuz...lawl, you make so many run-on sentences haha. Just sayin

 

[DtJ Hilt]

They aren't thought of as horrifically bad (imo, at least), they are just though of as worse than other stages, so why not ban them? Of course some chars may have other stages that should be cp'd instead if they excel on them, but these 3 are pretty reliable if you are unsure what to ban.

And dabuz...lawl, you make so many run-on sentences haha. Just sayin

believe it or not a lot of people DO consider the three stages horrific stages that should be avoided at all costs. the point is, you get only one ban per set. but olimar, has three stages that (as far as we know so far) are equally bad for olimar in general. so always banning frigate is obviously not the right choice. it's not a bad stage against EVERY single character (I'd rather fight DK at frigate than delfino). and hey, I'd love it if we found a character or two that the stage is actually an alright stage for us to cp :D

 

[Sky Pirate]

Speaking of horrific stages, I would like to request that Rainbow Cruise be removed from "Worst Counterpick" for Lucario, Diddy, and Ice Climbers for semi-obvious reasons. Not saying it's the best place to go, just that there are far worse places you can take them.

If I'm out of line or incredible, please feel free to shoot it down.

EDIT: Also, the charts are beautiful. I can't stop staring at them, they're just so awesome.

 

[Dabuz]

Speaking of horrific stages, I would like to request that Rainbow Cruise be removed from "Worst Counterpick" for Lucario, Diddy, and Ice Climbers for semi-obvious reasons. Not saying it's the best place to go, just that there are far worse places you can take them.

If I'm out of line or incredible, please feel free to shoot it down.

EDIT: Also, the charts are beautiful. I can't stop staring at them, they're just so awesome.

if you looked at first page you would of noticed in updates i said i took RC off of diddy already, lucario has a great air game, so no,i would like to here your argument for ices though

 

[DtJ Hilt]

hmm i'd have to disagree with rainbow cruise being a worse stage against lucario than japes and frigate. I havent played a Lucarios at Frigate much at all, but have a lot of experience against them on RC and Japes.

Rainbow cruise you're basically playing keep-away, using the stage's layout, until you get in a position to approach from below lucario with uair, or for him to mess up, and until the stage reaches an position you're less likely to get gimped. It's hard for Lucario to Aura Sphere effectively on Rainbow cruise do to the horrible layout of the stage for him. And gimping you on the stage is difficult after the pendulum phase, whenit basically turns into a walkoff. Speaking of that section, starting on the pendulum phase and going on until right before it returns to the boat, you can kill Lucario at ridiculously low percents. He's more susceptible to vertical kills than horizontal, due to his floatiness, so going for an usmash/uthrow here can get you an early stock. But yeah, lucario's ability to camp/projectile spam on RC is for the most part destroyed. His aerial game is still a problem, but isnt as bad as, say, meta knight or wario. Or marth >.>

In my opinion, Rainbow Cruise would be the least dangerous of the three stages against lucario (but i wont go into reasons to why the other two are bad against him)

 

[Paranormalsin]

hmm i'd have to disagree with rainbow cruise being a worse stage against lucario than japes and frigate. I havent played a Lucarios at Frigate much at all, but have a lot of experience against them on RC and Japes.

Rainbow cruise you're basically playing keep-away, using the stage's layout, until you get in a position to approach from below lucario with uair, or for him to mess up, and until the stage reaches an position you're less likely to get gimped. It's hard for Lucario to Aura Sphere effectively on Rainbow cruise do to the horrible layout of the stage for him. And gimping you on the stage is difficult after the pendulum phase, whenit basically turns into a walkoff. Speaking of that section, starting on the pendulum phase and going on until right before it returns to the boat, you can kill Lucario at ridiculously low percents. He's more susceptible to vertical kills than horizontal, due to his floatiness, so going for an usmash/uthrow here can get you an early stock. But yeah, lucario's ability to camp/projectile spam on RC is for the most part destroyed. His aerial game is still a problem, but isnt as bad as, say, meta knight or wario. Or marth >.>

In my opinion, Rainbow Cruise would be the least dangerous of the three stages against lucario (but i wont go into reasons to why the other two are bad against him)

besides the fact that i hate RC sooooo much, hilt makes sense as to how RC would be effectove against Lucario, but TBH now, i have not had many problems against lucarios on Japes or Frigate, granted i have not played Tactical yet, or blood hawk .

 

[Sky Pirate]

if you looked at first page you would of noticed in updates i said i took RC off of diddy already, lucario has a great air game, so no,i would like to here your argument for ices though

Sorry, must've misread the chart for the Diddy thing. ^^;
Hilt pretty much summarized the argument for Lucario.

As for the ICs, I never really have trouble with them at RC. The constant motion makes it difficult for them to CG for much of the stage. The only problems are the ship and pendulum.
For the ship, I just camp on the right edge and try to force them to come over.
The pendulum part is too short. Avoiding combat on that part is easy.
The fourth part is excellent for getting kills off the top, but it's also excellent for them to get CG kills as well. I just try to avoid them and fling pikmin/grab a lot if they're at a low percent, but they're usually high by then. Kinda hard to abuse the scrolling border with Nana disrupting grabs, though. --;

This is based solely on personal experience.

Your cross examination, please.
Remember that I'm not an expert on the ICs, though I have taken a few to RC.

 

[Dabuz]

ok, i agree for lucario, but ics will still be pending, idk much about them on rc, also, would it be fair to say bf should be second ban against lucario? cause its a really great stage for him


i did some cp testing with frigate and frigate is a great wario cp tbh, probably olis best cp against wario

 

[Punishment Divine]

Why does your list include stages that are long banned in most competitive regions (Japes, NoFair, Mansion)?

 

[Dyyne]

RC rules...Aside from the 5 second pendulum, I don't see hardly any faults to it, as I've argued for the past year.

 

[Sky Pirate]

I second making BF his second ban.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I dont know, japes and frigate are both really good for lucario. Not sure if battlefield would be worse for the matchup than frigate though. Havent played them much on the stage, to be honest.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Isn't Lucario somewhat easily killed off the top?
Like he said, extra Purples and Yellows help in this matchup.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

He's killed off the top easier, and the extra purples do help out against him. It's the layout of the stage that benefits lucario. The platform is extremely well placed for his aerials in the first part. Lucario is amazing at gimping olimar, so getting led to the right side is extremely dangerous, while he himself has few risks there, as he can wall cling to the right side. The second transformation is a bit better against him, as camping is easier with the added room you have, and the platforms to the side prevent lucario from getting the easy gimps on you.

Yellow pikmin dont really help in this matchup. They arent as good in this matchup as they are in others. The extra range doesnt make a difference, as lucario outranges everything you do anyways. While against mk's fair, your yellow fair gives you that edge in range that blue/red couldnt, that's not really the case with lucario. His fair completly out prioritizes most of your attacks. As does his fsmash and dair. As for yellow usmash... you'd be better off getting a blue uthrow (yes, blue uthrow) and having it kill than a yellow usmash. Actually I've had easier times getting off blue uthrows against lucario than even purple usmash or purple uthrow.

 

[Paranormalsin]

He's killed off the top easier, and the extra purples do help out against him. It's the layout of the stage that benefits lucario. The platform is extremely well placed for his aerials in the first part. Lucario is amazing at gimping olimar, so getting led to the right side is extremely dangerous, while he himself has few risks there, as he can wall cling to the right side. The second transformation is a bit better against him, as camping is easier with the added room you have, and the platforms to the side prevent lucario from getting the easy gimps on you.

Yellow pikmin dont really help in this matchup. They arent as good in this matchup as they are in others. The extra range doesnt make a difference, as lucario outranges everything you do anyways. While against mk's fair, your yellow fair gives you that edge in range that blue/red couldnt, that's not really the case with lucario. His fair completly out prioritizes most of your attacks. As does his fsmash and dair. As for yellow usmash... you'd be better off getting a blue uthrow (yes, blue uthrow) and having it kill than a yellow usmash. Actually I've had easier times getting off blue uthrows against lucario than even purple usmash or purple uthrow.

well put hilt. i do agree that air game is worthless against lucario but, consider this. everytime ive played a lucario, ive managed to put them into weird positions, and making them camp on the platform (providing there is one) and just getting the advantage there. sting uairs has never been better. also, ive heard his dair gets beaten out by out utilt...this ture hilt?

 

[Player-4]

Help the Lucario boards

with their stage discussion? All input is welcome and much appreciated

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226651&page=14

 

[Dabuz]

ok, definetly cp frigate against marth, bf is second ban vs lucario, yoshis island is worst stage against game & Watch, and im changing second best neutral column to worst neutral column when im not in a lazy mood, because that will be more helpful IMO

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah, having the worst neutrals for each character would be a good idea. Didnt really think about it. I suppose if you wanted to, you could actually have three columns in the charts. Pretty sure they'd fit.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Perhaps I am a bit biased toward yellows, but yellows are helpful against anybody. They have a large, lingering hitbox, throws with little knockback, a high throwing arc, and a slight stunning effect when they connect. They compliment the great killing power of the purples perfectly, IMO.

If I'm making a fool of myself, let me know.
IF, however, this is a valid point, please provide a good counterargument.

EDIT: But all of his pikmin have lingering hitboxes on many of his attacks. I don't think it made a difference whether I referred to it as such or not. ^^;

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I love yellows as well. Easily my favorite pikmin, with purple right behind them. However, it's good to know what pikmin work better in different matchups. As much as i hate reds. here's the thing, with yellow attacks (preferably fair) the point of using a yellow for the attack is that you're able to outrange opponent's moves that you normally couldnt. However, with lucario this isnt the case. You cant outrange his attacks with ANY of your pikmin, so yellow's boost in range isnt as beneficial.

They dont make as big of a difference against him as they do against other characters. Not to say that they arent even slightly good against him, just that picking a stage JUST because of the yellows, isnt the greatest move against lucario.

Also, yellows do not have a lingering hitbox. Every single pikmin lasts the same amount of frames for each attack. There's no difference.

 

[Plasma Pikmin]

So would picking a stage with more Purples (Delfino, for instance) be good against Lucario because they can kill him before he reaches his high amount of attack power?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

yes yes, definitely. I've had a lot of success against lucario on delfino (again, I play lucarios on a pretty regular basis). The awkwardness of the different sections help making it hard for him to deal with your camping, as well as how the stage's layout makes for several uair attempts, which lucario is very prone to. I could go on and on about delfino if I had the time


Personally, Delfino, Halberd, and FD are the stages I do best against lucarios on.

 

[kingcobra9]

maybe i'm a failure but luigi's house is probably my worst stage in the game especially with my olimar

 

[Dabuz]

ok, im also adding that norfair should be primary ban vs link, G&W,(when im not lazy anyway)

 

[BlackWaltzX]

Yellow's make the screen shake against Samus.
It's my fave type.
Also, the 'pzzzzt' noise makes me warm.

 

[asob4]

i think i'm in love with blackwaltz
he spams and doesn't afraid of infractions

 

[Dyyne]

Blackwaltz is a pretty cool guy.

 

[Sky Pirate]

It may be just me, but Frigate does seem like a pretty bad stage against G&W.
I easily handled one earlier on RC and got three-stocked by the same one on Frigate.
And I play both stages a lot.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Well, it's early morning and I've been brawling all night. Time for more OUTRRRRAGEOUS claims!

1. Marth
RC is not the worst CP against Marth. BRINSTAR has to be the most frustrating stage to fight him on.
I'd also like to say that worst neutral for him is BF.

2. Ice Climbers
Apparently RC isn't just "not good" for the Ice Climbers. It's "really bad" for them.
Nana seperates from Popo easily on the second and third parts, allowing Oli to pick her off and screw Popo over hard. As long as you camp on the boat and avoid the side Bs, the rest is REALLY terrible for them. Not as bad as Norfair, Brinstar, etc. but not as good as FD or SV.

3. This topic
Why aren't more people contributing? It feels like 4-5 people, but I know there are more out there.
This is useful stuff and it's pretty fun to test. ^^;

 

[Dabuz]

i do not agree with those posts, i would explain but im on wiinet due to broken computer, also, i can't update cause of that

 

[Sky Pirate]

Okay. If anyone else wants to start poking holes in the meantime, be my guest.
(hint, hint)

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Perhaps rather than us poking holes into your argument, there should be one for us to poke holes into >.>

What you said about Ice Climbers on Rainbow Cruise was the part that you were actually descriptive on. Give some reasoning and we'll tell you if we agree or not.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Hmm... You have a good point.

-WITNESS TESTIMONY- MARTH ON BRINSTAR-
Well, I don't really have much to say. Marth is just hard to fight there.
It's a small stage, which somewhat limits Oli's camping game.
The uneven ground hinders his Fsmashes.
It does make for some cool grabs, but the breakaway part can block them.
The lava forces both into the air, but Oli seems to be on the losing end there.
The boundaries are close, but this works as both an advantage and a disadvantage.
It's just generally easier for Marth to maintain stage control.

-WITNESS TESTIMONY- MARTH ON BATTLEFIELD-
Umm... Not much to say here. SV and FD seem better.
FD is large, allowing him to camp easily.
SV is similar, but with a moving platform.
So it's either YI or BF. I can't imagine putting YI as a "worst neutral" for Oli.
Okay, my argument for BF is a little weak. ^^;

By the way, I don't mean to cause confusion or anything. I'm just throwing out observations I make about the people I play. If you'd like me to stop posting, just let me know. ^^;

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I agree with your points for the most part. Battlefield, in my opinion, would be more favorable to marth, while FD would make the matchup a bit better for camping reasons. Also I have a lack of experience fighting marth on brinstar so I wouldnt know.

Also, no one wants you to stop posting lol. The oli boards are dead enough as it is :x

 

[Paranormalsin]

im gonna be heading to nopes today to practice up some more, im deff gonna try some crazy counterpicks....like pictochat for starters. i think its growing on me...

 

[IcyLight]

i bring marths to frigate or lylat. tilting space on lylat screws over non-tethers sometimes, and on lylat you get more yellow/purple (not sure of stats but i do regardless), and yellows help outrange/prioritize/space etc. while purples are just amazing. as far as frigate, i seem to get more purples there as well which really help in the matchup. And, as far as neutrals go, i like to take marth to fd as it's the biggest stage meaning easier to move around and space.

i didn't know this thread was active i'll start posting my contribution =]

 

[Paranormalsin]

im going to have to disagree with warios best neutral stage being yoshis.
i was under the impression with the way battlefield was set up that it was the best, and yoshis was the second cause FD deff is not in any the slightest way better for wario than BF. tons of charcters can out camp wario on FD because of the lack of platforms and his air mobility is limited: thus used as a CP against wario in most cases where characters dont have a huge amount of air mobility.

just showing insight. any ideas?

 

[Dotcom]

I like the midwest because you guys have a more lax stage selection. I think Pictochat, and Luigi's are both on out there and they are both banned there. That's why it sucks for me to look at this list because the first counter pick is most of the time Luigi's which isn't playable. I think Friagte sort of scares Olimar's off just because of the right side first part, and it's tether failure. But I've come to learn that dealing with that stage it just takes time to get used to. I think we should look at peach counter picks because of the fact that none are up there. I'll throw one out
Delfino:
Delfino has enough space for you to not be limited in ways you can go when a Peach approaches you. if you see the floating Dair coming you can get around it on pretty much every part of the stage. If you are on the moving platform and Peach approaches you from above which they will do in most cases, you can falling Uair and then try other stuff. On his stage it just generally seems there's an answer to everything they can try and it gives you the opportunity to do somethings you normally can't do in the match up. For example because a lot of levels have sloped landings, there are some places where you can camp with grab and up B shutting down approaches(think beaches, oh and except turnips but that really isn't an approach now is it). Grabs tend to work often to, i honestly don't know why but it just seems you can grab peach more on delfino.


I'm not to certain we should put down Luigi's because her Dair > our Upsmash but maybe i'm wrong :/

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah, there's better options against peach than luigi's mansion. As you said, Delfino works well against her (****IN PURPLES). Awkward stage layouts tend to mess with peach when fighting olimar. Helps us camp and messes with her approach, since it's so linear. I've been considering trying rainbow cruise against peach. Japes would definitely be the worst stage to fight her on. As I think was mentioned earlier, frigate does well against peach. I dont really think it should be the best or second best cp, but it's definitely not something you'd want to ban.

Cant really think of too many other stages that work well against peach... yoshi's is the best neutral (stage's dip and good platform setup), followed by FD (lotsa room for camping) or maybe lylat. Although I'm not as sure if lylat's slant will help against peach too much. Havent tried it out too much.

Oh! Halberd! Halberd I would say would be better than FD against peach. The second phase is about as large, and the low ceiling works amazing against her for extremely low percent upsmash kills.

 

[Paranormalsin]

Oh! Halberd! Halberd I would say would be better than FD against peach. The second phase is about as large, and the low ceiling works amazing against her for extremely low percent upsmash kills.

wonder who came up with this idea >.> <.< ^.^