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There are two remedies for shield heavy opponents.Hi guys. I'm working on a Ness of my own, but it feels like shields will eat me. If you happen to play someone who's very cavalier with their shielding, what do you suppose the general strategy should be?
Edit: I'm especially worried about characters with large yet quick shield grabs, such as Link, Tink, Lucas, D3, DK, and so on.
Boiks gives pretty much flawless advice for Ness. He's absolutely right about the cross-up aerials: if you land in front of them you'll almost always be punished. Also, he speaks about adaptation well too: if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, you'll lose the match in a flash because Ness has almost zero range on most of his moves. However, if you play smarter than your opponent, you'll hear them complain quite a bit.There are two remedies for shield heavy opponents.
At high levels of game play, smash is all about conditioning your opponent to behave in a certain way and then capitalizing on their behavior. On the flip side, your opponent should recognize what they're being punished for and adapt to counter the new change in play style. If you're conditioning your opponent to play a defensive, in shield game, you're doing something right, now the next step is to capitalize on it.
First and foremost, cross-ups. Ness has a lot of momentum with his aerials that allow him to cross up shield easily. If you fair past someone's shield, they can only punish with fast out of shield options that hit behind them (Samus/Bowser up+b out of shield, for example). You should be crossing up shields more often than not, as it almost always puts your opponent in a disadvantageous position.
Now, more importantly, baiting shields. This goes back to what I first said about conditioning your opponent. I played someone the other day, and every time that I full hopped, I would come down with a cross up aerial. I was never really punished for it, and occasionally I would hit them. After doing this a few times, I noticed my opponent would shield whenever I full hopped (around the time I started to come down). So instead of coming down with an aerial, I just empty hopped and grabbed them. This evolution continued throughout the set, as later on whenever I would jump they would try to get underneath me, and I responded by weaving back with my jump and baiting an aerial, but that's a whole different story.
tl;dr, bait shields and jump in with an empty hop and grab, cross up shields more often than not.
It kind of comes down to the MU. In general though, most of his match ups can safely be played on FD, Smashville, or Green Hill Zone. PS2 also comes to mind, because those small platforms make it difficult for opponents to mix up their tech options.Boiks gives pretty much flawless advice for Ness. He's absolutely right about the cross-up aerials: if you land in front of them you'll almost always be punished. Also, he speaks about adaptation well too: if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, you'll lose the match in a flash because Ness has almost zero range on most of his moves. However, if you play smarter than your opponent, you'll hear them complain quite a bit.
Also, what stages do you think are the best for Ness? I feel as though FD and Green Hill Zone are his best, but I would like to hear your input.
FD against the spacies is godlike. He becomes a pretty good counter to those guys for that reason (especially since they love FD). But the matchup I'm really having trouble against is Sheik... DOES ANY CHARACTER BEAT HER?!? (Not yelling, spazzing, etc. Just concerned.) None of my characters, all which you can see to the left while adding in Bowser, Charizard, and Ganondorf, seem to be good enough. Admittedly, the Sheik I play against is on point, and my Bowser comes pretty close (sometimes), but I almost never win. Any pointers?It kind of comes down to the MU. In general though, most of his match ups can safely be played on FD, Smashville, or Green Hill Zone. PS2 also comes to mind, because those small platforms make it difficult for opponents to mix up their tech options.
As a personal preference, I like Smashville because it's like a mini FD, the platform gives you additional recovery options, plus if you're hit under the stage, you can PKT2 slide under the stage and sweet spot, as soon as backwards sweet spotting is fixed, that is. But objectively speaking, FD is his best stage against 80 percent of the cast.
It would help to see some vids, but playing against Sheik is about being really confident in your tech. You have to maximize combos and practice your edge guards. LJC is essential for this matchup IMO. It's not that bad a matchup if you can make every hit count for almost a death, and if your gimp abilities get strong. I think DJC uair tightness is super important because you should be able to get a LOT out of any dthrow. If they DI away, you should be able to get mag-> nair regrab, or DJC fair regrab. If they DI in, you should be able to get 2 DJC uairs and another aerial of your choice (bair or dair preferably). You should learn to fthrow them off the edge, read whichever recover options they are going for, and take ledge, into LJC dair -> DJC uair or bair.FD against the spacies is godlike. He becomes a pretty good counter to those guys for that reason (especially since they love FD). But the matchup I'm really having trouble against is Sheik... DOES ANY CHARACTER BEAT HER?!? (Not yelling, spazzing, etc. Just concerned.) None of my characters, all which you can see to the left while adding in Bowser, Charizard, and Ganondorf, seem to be good enough. Admittedly, the Sheik I play against is on point, and my Bowser comes pretty close (sometimes), but I almost never win. Any pointers?
EDIT: I have a Fox, C. Falcon, Ivysaur, and Mewtwo, but they aren't that good. The Fox and Falcon are okay, but the Fox is pretty untechnical.
Sheik is a pain. A Sheik player that knows the MU well is going to give you a really hard time. Sheik has guaranteed combos off of throws and very potent edge guarding with invincible bairs from the ledge, fair, and worst of all, needles. A Sheik player who is good with needles WILL kill you when you’re below the ledge. The most important part of this MU is getting Sheik into the air with any of your moves that pop her up (dair/dash attack/down throw) and then comboing with DJC uairs into something that puts her off stage. Edge guarding Sheik is easy to a degree. You just need to grab ledge, forcing her onto stage, and LJC dair to punish her landing lag into an uair/bair to kill or put her off stage again. Taking a step back, getting up close and personal with Sheik is not easy. She has the tools to keep you out. She has a better grab range than you, needles, which are one of the best projectiles in the game, and are certainly better for controlling space than PKF, a huge bair, great tilts, and no real blind spots. So what can you do? First, bait shield grabs. Sheik players are almost always looking for grabs. It provides the most follow up for her and the risk is worth the reward. So your goal is to bait this option and punish it. Hover above Sheik, forcing her into shield, come down quickly, feign an approach, WD back away from the shield grab and punish. If you’re hovering above, be wary of the distance of her fair and bair. Don’t stay directly above her, just in your usual zone of 45 degrees up. The other option you have is CC d-tilt. Sheik is very susceptible to crouch canceling but a good Sheik player will adapt quickly. They’ll start throwing out needles to increase your damage or force you to approach and they will grab instead of tilting. You just need to adapt to this change and punish. NZA basically covered the grab follow ups, but just to reiterate: if they DI out, fair>regrab until she is close to the ledge then quickly forward throw, hopefully they’re still DIing out . If they DI in, bair into bair/uair/dair into whatever you want. Sheik is relatively good combo weight. If they DI up> uair chain into a nair/bair/dair, just try putting her off stage, it’s guaranteed damage when she is coming back. If you are recovering, make it as difficult as possible for her to snipe you with needles. It’s easier said than done, but try to learn the areas she can’t hit, such as steep angles from the ledge. Overall, it’s a hard match up and you have to use all of your tools. Just keep playing it and you’ll figure it out. I played with DKWill’s Sheik A LOT and he used to clean me up pretty handily, but now I’m super good at the MU.FD against the spacies is godlike. He becomes a pretty good counter to those guys for that reason (especially since they love FD). But the matchup I'm really having trouble against is Sheik... DOES ANY CHARACTER BEAT HER?!? (Not yelling, spazzing, etc. Just concerned.) None of my characters, all which you can see to the left while adding in Bowser, Charizard, and Ganondorf, seem to be good enough. Admittedly, the Sheik I play against is on point, and my Bowser comes pretty close (sometimes), but I almost never win. Any pointers?
EDIT: I have a Fox, C. Falcon, Ivysaur, and Mewtwo, but they aren't that good. The Fox and Falcon are okay, but the Fox is pretty untechnical.
Unfortunately I don't have TOO much footage at the moment since my main weekly stopped streaming PM after 3.5 dropped. I have a few sets under the Free Saltines twitch archive and there are a few videos under that same youtube channel that posted the G$ video (mine, lol), of my recent tournament set with Animal.Boiko, is there anywhere I can find more recent (3.5) footage of your Ness? I've hunted around on YouTube and found the same few videos from COA and that set against G$, but not much more. I'm the type who learns by watching a lot of footage, and judging from your advice and experience you seem like a good place to continue. Is there anywhere I'm not looking, like a Twitch archive or something?
The info looks great but definitely wildly inaccurate. I'd be happy to help when I'm not working.Hi Ness Social! I'm the guy who did that character survey some time ago and have recently completed Ness. Or almost completed, it's mostly done but I have some strengths and weaknesses I wish to iron out but can't really confirm what's what (you can see here). I'm also struggling with how to summarize Ness's fighter archetype with as few words as possible because, well, does Ness even fit any archetype? Based on most people's responses it feels like Ness can be played in many ways. Right now I want to say he's essentially a jack-of-all-trades but with very unusual characteristics, or at least an unconventional kit that just plays out to be very flexible.
Any help is appreciated! Ness has always been one of those mysterious characters to me so I'd love to understand him better
Dude, do you have power points on every character like this? I think you did an amazing job categorizing the general summary of Ness, and if you have access to more powerpoints like this, i would love to have access to them so I can help build the knowledge base of some characters that I see less often! Would you be interested in messaging me your email address?Hi Ness Social! I'm the guy who did that character survey some time ago and have recently completed Ness. Or almost completed, it's mostly done but I have some strengths and weaknesses I wish to iron out but can't really confirm what's what (you can see here). I'm also struggling with how to summarize Ness's fighter archetype with as few words as possible because, well, does Ness even fit any archetype? Based on most people's responses it feels like Ness can be played in many ways. Right now I want to say he's essentially a jack-of-all-trades but with very unusual characteristics, or at least an unconventional kit that just plays out to be very flexible.
Any help is appreciated! Ness has always been one of those mysterious characters to me so I'd love to understand him better
I'd love some pointers, so whenever you have the time. I also asked the subreddit and someone said he's rushdown and another said he's like Marth relying primarily on combos and spacing. Lol maybe everyone is saying an incomplete truth.The info looks great but definitely wildly inaccurate. I'd be happy to help when I'm not working.
Thanks for the vote of confidence! So all of the characters will eventually be on that one powerpoint, I just usually link whichever slide is relevant to the conversation. I'm still processing the rest of the characters since there's so much data. I track my progress on this thread.Dude, do you have power points on every character like this? I think you did an amazing job categorizing the general summary of Ness, and if you have access to more powerpoints like this, i would love to have access to them so I can help build the knowledge base of some characters that I see less often! Would you be interested in messaging me your email address?
Hello!Hey ness mains, I'm trying to pick up ness as a solid secondary among a few others (or possibly my main) because I have seen some sick stuff from him and enjoy playing him. My only problem is that I live somewhere where there aren't a ton of players, and therefore I don't get to practice against much of the cast.
So my question is, what are ness' bad matchups that I should absolutely avoid? And if I could get a brief rundown of what makes them so hard that would be great too. I can learn matchups and players fairly easy on the fly as long as it's not a super hard matchup or I have knowledge of what to do ahead of time. I'd really appreciate it!
Ness is the best character in the game.
Idk, I don't think it's that bad. Ness is so good at baiting Marth to attack by weaving in and out of his range and most of Marth's moves are laggy. If you play his patient/defensive game, yeah, you get punished really hard, but you just need to be ready to DI his combos and they're not that bad. Idk, I kind of like it, maybe I'm just crazy.Marth absolutely destroys Ness in the match up 65-35 or 60-40 in Marth's favor at worst.
His great disjoints and Ness's weight make him easy to combo, and if the Ness doesn't DI properly, a 0-Death is possible with a simple fthrow -> fthrow -> fthrow -> fsmash on Fountain of Dreams, and even if you don't bother going for those, his attacks should chain together with ease racking up quick damage for later edgeguard attempts or tipper kills.
Because of Marth's disjoints allow him to simply play the defensive while Ness has to constantly approach, something Ness isn't really great at doing because all of his options are unsafe on block. Along with the disjoints Marth has, it makes Ness's recovery look even worse than it already is.
On Marth's side, he doesn't want to get offstage because that's where he's incredibly weak while Ness is at a huge advantage because of his lengthy recovery. (I did say his recovery is terrible, but only when the opponent is ready to edgeguard. If the opponent isn't there to edgeguard you, it's a pretty good recovery.)
All Marth needs to do is outspace him with his range. However, if you space improperly, you're going to get hit with high damaging combos. What makes this match up so much in favor of Marth however, is the fact that his spacing is literally where Ness wants to be, except while Ness's hitconfirms leads into combos, yours lead into kills.
I'm right there with you buddy.So this might be an odd question (and not entirely Ness-specific), but how do you guys combat twitchy fingers? I'm ridiculous about this, and this and my habit of what I call Hair Spacing are my two biggest weaknesses as a player right now. Ness's dair has a startup of what, five or six frames? Sometimes I djc so low to the ground that no hitbox comes out. I choke and get punished. Magnet is cancellable by fame...10, 11? Somewhere like that. I am constantly hitting Y before then and just floating around like a doofus. I get punished. Sometimes when I try to wavedash I hit L before I've even moved the control stick and I just airdodge in place. Get punished. Sometimes I try to do a SHFFL or DJCFFL aerial and miss the aerial part entirely, so I end up airdodging or wavedashing when I hit L. Punish. I play against this Falco I know so often (my third least favorite matchup in the entire game now) and I feel like if everything I do isn't lightning fast I'm not going to beat him out. So my fingers are flying all over the place and I can't get a grip on what my hands are actually doing. I'm moving too fast. I just got done playing a set and I'm having trouble typing this because I'm such a spaz. And this is just friendlies. I shudder to think how I'd do with tourney nerves. Any advice on how to slow down and take it easy in-match?
Welcome to smashboards and what do you want to ask?Why did it take me 4 years to make a smashboards account with all this juicy info?
Im a big Ness player, but even a bigger fan of these threads here. If the Ness section is still active, I do have some questions myself to ask for base improvement.
Oh hey.Just some simple stuff, like would you use Y over X for jump? and what uses you could get out of the R button so I dont rely on L for everything. I watched all of Boikos vids in the pinned post and was floored. I developed such an odd Ness because I literally learned the character on my own. Im sure I could think of more, but I would have to fail some new strats shown in those videos enough to ask how to get around it.
Thanks for the reply by the way. Didnt take long at all.
The only way I can really tell you how to calm down in game is to play more. When you go to tourneys often your nerves calm down and you treat every game like "just another game" (cause that's what it is). Other than that, other good things to keep calm is finding something occupying to keep you in rhythm. Some things like a jiggly leg or whistling or just remembering to collect yourself in between stocks helps your nerves too. Maybe try listening to calming music as well. I know Frank Ocean always gets me in a groove when I'm playing. Hopefully this will keep your inputs consistent!So this might be an odd question (and not entirely Ness-specific), but how do you guys combat twitchy fingers? I'm ridiculous about this, and this and my habit of what I call Hair Spacing are my two biggest weaknesses as a player right now. Ness's dair has a startup of what, five or six frames? Sometimes I djc so low to the ground that no hitbox comes out. I choke and get punished. Magnet is cancellable by fame...10, 11? Somewhere like that. I am constantly hitting Y before then and just floating around like a doofus. I get punished. Sometimes when I try to wavedash I hit L before I've even moved the control stick and I just airdodge in place. Get punished. Sometimes I try to do a SHFFL or DJCFFL aerial and miss the aerial part entirely, so I end up airdodging or wavedashing when I hit L. Punish. Sometimes I try to grab and (I have no clue why this happens but I feel like it might be due to how quickly and lightly I tap the button) I just wind up briefly shielding, It looks so stupid and I get hit. I play against this Falco I know so often (my third least favorite matchup in the entire game now) and I feel like if everything I do isn't lightning fast I'm not going to beat him out. Some matches it seems that he can just mash and throw out hitboxes and no matter how much I roll, shield, spotdodge, or get him to misspace it, I'll get hit because his moves are just coming out too quickly for me to do anything. So my fingers are flying all over the place and I can't get a grip on what my hands are actually doing. I'm moving too fast. I just got done playing a set and I'm having trouble typing this because I'm such a spaz. And this is just friendlies. I shudder to think how I'd do with tourney nerves. Any advice on how to slow down and take it easy in-match?