OK! Ness Q&A/Social Thread

[Boiko]

It's really not a huge deal. I still have someone complain at my locals that Ness is "top 2" but he just doesn't play the MU correctly.

 

[Zoma]

Hi guys. I'm working on a Ness of my own, but it feels like shields will eat me. If you happen to play someone who's very cavalier with their shielding, what do you suppose the general strategy should be?

Edit: I'm especially worried about characters with large yet quick shield grabs, such as Link, Tink, Lucas, D3, DK, and so on.

 

[Boiko]

Hi guys. I'm working on a Ness of my own, but it feels like shields will eat me. If you happen to play someone who's very cavalier with their shielding, what do you suppose the general strategy should be?

Edit: I'm especially worried about characters with large yet quick shield grabs, such as Link, Tink, Lucas, D3, DK, and so on.

There are two remedies for shield heavy opponents.
At high levels of game play, smash is all about conditioning your opponent to behave in a certain way and then capitalizing on their behavior. On the flip side, your opponent should recognize what they're being punished for and adapt to counter the new change in play style. If you're conditioning your opponent to play a defensive, in shield game, you're doing something right, now the next step is to capitalize on it.

First and foremost, cross-ups. Ness has a lot of momentum with his aerials that allow him to cross up shield easily. If you fair past someone's shield, they can only punish with fast out of shield options that hit behind them (Samus/Bowser up+b out of shield, for example). You should be crossing up shields more often than not, as it almost always puts your opponent in a disadvantageous position.

Now, more importantly, baiting shields. This goes back to what I first said about conditioning your opponent. I played someone the other day, and every time that I full hopped, I would come down with a cross up aerial. I was never really punished for it, and occasionally I would hit them. After doing this a few times, I noticed my opponent would shield whenever I full hopped (around the time I started to come down). So instead of coming down with an aerial, I just empty hopped and grabbed them. This evolution continued throughout the set, as later on whenever I would jump they would try to get underneath me, and I responded by weaving back with my jump and baiting an aerial, but that's a whole different story.

tl;dr, bait shields and jump in with an empty hop and grab, cross up shields more often than not.

 

[_Chrome]

There are two remedies for shield heavy opponents.
At high levels of game play, smash is all about conditioning your opponent to behave in a certain way and then capitalizing on their behavior. On the flip side, your opponent should recognize what they're being punished for and adapt to counter the new change in play style. If you're conditioning your opponent to play a defensive, in shield game, you're doing something right, now the next step is to capitalize on it.

First and foremost, cross-ups. Ness has a lot of momentum with his aerials that allow him to cross up shield easily. If you fair past someone's shield, they can only punish with fast out of shield options that hit behind them (Samus/Bowser up+b out of shield, for example). You should be crossing up shields more often than not, as it almost always puts your opponent in a disadvantageous position.

Now, more importantly, baiting shields. This goes back to what I first said about conditioning your opponent. I played someone the other day, and every time that I full hopped, I would come down with a cross up aerial. I was never really punished for it, and occasionally I would hit them. After doing this a few times, I noticed my opponent would shield whenever I full hopped (around the time I started to come down). So instead of coming down with an aerial, I just empty hopped and grabbed them. This evolution continued throughout the set, as later on whenever I would jump they would try to get underneath me, and I responded by weaving back with my jump and baiting an aerial, but that's a whole different story.

tl;dr, bait shields and jump in with an empty hop and grab, cross up shields more often than not.

Boiks gives pretty much flawless advice for Ness. He's absolutely right about the cross-up aerials: if you land in front of them you'll almost always be punished. Also, he speaks about adaptation well too: if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, you'll lose the match in a flash because Ness has almost zero range on most of his moves. However, if you play smarter than your opponent, you'll hear them complain quite a bit.

Also, what stages do you think are the best for Ness? I feel as though FD and Green Hill Zone are his best, but I would like to hear your input.

 

[Boiko]

Boiks gives pretty much flawless advice for Ness. He's absolutely right about the cross-up aerials: if you land in front of them you'll almost always be punished. Also, he speaks about adaptation well too: if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, you'll lose the match in a flash because Ness has almost zero range on most of his moves. However, if you play smarter than your opponent, you'll hear them complain quite a bit.

Also, what stages do you think are the best for Ness? I feel as though FD and Green Hill Zone are his best, but I would like to hear your input.

It kind of comes down to the MU. In general though, most of his match ups can safely be played on FD, Smashville, or Green Hill Zone. PS2 also comes to mind, because those small platforms make it difficult for opponents to mix up their tech options.

As a personal preference, I like Smashville because it's like a mini FD, the platform gives you additional recovery options, plus if you're hit under the stage, you can PKT2 slide under the stage and sweet spot, as soon as backwards sweet spotting is fixed, that is. But objectively speaking, FD is his best stage against 80 percent of the cast.

 

[_Chrome]

It kind of comes down to the MU. In general though, most of his match ups can safely be played on FD, Smashville, or Green Hill Zone. PS2 also comes to mind, because those small platforms make it difficult for opponents to mix up their tech options.

As a personal preference, I like Smashville because it's like a mini FD, the platform gives you additional recovery options, plus if you're hit under the stage, you can PKT2 slide under the stage and sweet spot, as soon as backwards sweet spotting is fixed, that is. But objectively speaking, FD is his best stage against 80 percent of the cast.

FD against the spacies is godlike. He becomes a pretty good counter to those guys for that reason (especially since they love FD). But the matchup I'm really having trouble against is Sheik... DOES ANY CHARACTER BEAT HER?!? (Not yelling, spazzing, etc. Just concerned.) None of my characters, all which you can see to the left while adding in Bowser, Charizard, and Ganondorf, seem to be good enough. Admittedly, the Sheik I play against is on point, and my Bowser comes pretty close (sometimes), but I almost never win. Any pointers?

EDIT: I have a Fox, C. Falcon, Ivysaur, and Mewtwo, but they aren't that good. The Fox and Falcon are okay, but the Fox is pretty untechnical.

 

[The_NZA]

FD against the spacies is godlike. He becomes a pretty good counter to those guys for that reason (especially since they love FD). But the matchup I'm really having trouble against is Sheik... DOES ANY CHARACTER BEAT HER?!? (Not yelling, spazzing, etc. Just concerned.) None of my characters, all which you can see to the left while adding in Bowser, Charizard, and Ganondorf, seem to be good enough. Admittedly, the Sheik I play against is on point, and my Bowser comes pretty close (sometimes), but I almost never win. Any pointers?

EDIT: I have a Fox, C. Falcon, Ivysaur, and Mewtwo, but they aren't that good. The Fox and Falcon are okay, but the Fox is pretty untechnical.

It would help to see some vids, but playing against Sheik is about being really confident in your tech. You have to maximize combos and practice your edge guards. LJC is essential for this matchup IMO. It's not that bad a matchup if you can make every hit count for almost a death, and if your gimp abilities get strong. I think DJC uair tightness is super important because you should be able to get a LOT out of any dthrow. If they DI away, you should be able to get mag-> nair regrab, or DJC fair regrab. If they DI in, you should be able to get 2 DJC uairs and another aerial of your choice (bair or dair preferably). You should learn to fthrow them off the edge, read whichever recover options they are going for, and take ledge, into LJC dair -> DJC uair or bair.

Basically, get really really confident in your combo tech and your edge guard game and this matchup starts to look more even. Dash attack also leads into a LOT due to shiek's heavy weight.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Hi Ness Social! I'm the guy who did that character survey some time ago and have recently completed Ness. Or almost completed, it's mostly done but I have some strengths and weaknesses I wish to iron out but can't really confirm what's what (you can see here). I'm also struggling with how to summarize Ness's fighter archetype with as few words as possible because, well, does Ness even fit any archetype? Based on most people's responses it feels like Ness can be played in many ways. Right now I want to say he's essentially a jack-of-all-trades but with very unusual characteristics, or at least an unconventional kit that just plays out to be very flexible.

Any help is appreciated! Ness has always been one of those mysterious characters to me so I'd love to understand him better

 

[Boiko]

FD against the spacies is godlike. He becomes a pretty good counter to those guys for that reason (especially since they love FD). But the matchup I'm really having trouble against is Sheik... DOES ANY CHARACTER BEAT HER?!? (Not yelling, spazzing, etc. Just concerned.) None of my characters, all which you can see to the left while adding in Bowser, Charizard, and Ganondorf, seem to be good enough. Admittedly, the Sheik I play against is on point, and my Bowser comes pretty close (sometimes), but I almost never win. Any pointers?

EDIT: I have a Fox, C. Falcon, Ivysaur, and Mewtwo, but they aren't that good. The Fox and Falcon are okay, but the Fox is pretty untechnical.

Sheik is a pain. A Sheik player that knows the MU well is going to give you a really hard time. Sheik has guaranteed combos off of throws and very potent edge guarding with invincible bairs from the ledge, fair, and worst of all, needles. A Sheik player who is good with needles WILL kill you when you’re below the ledge. The most important part of this MU is getting Sheik into the air with any of your moves that pop her up (dair/dash attack/down throw) and then comboing with DJC uairs into something that puts her off stage. Edge guarding Sheik is easy to a degree. You just need to grab ledge, forcing her onto stage, and LJC dair to punish her landing lag into an uair/bair to kill or put her off stage again. Taking a step back, getting up close and personal with Sheik is not easy. She has the tools to keep you out. She has a better grab range than you, needles, which are one of the best projectiles in the game, and are certainly better for controlling space than PKF, a huge bair, great tilts, and no real blind spots. So what can you do? First, bait shield grabs. Sheik players are almost always looking for grabs. It provides the most follow up for her and the risk is worth the reward. So your goal is to bait this option and punish it. Hover above Sheik, forcing her into shield, come down quickly, feign an approach, WD back away from the shield grab and punish. If you’re hovering above, be wary of the distance of her fair and bair. Don’t stay directly above her, just in your usual zone of 45 degrees up. The other option you have is CC d-tilt. Sheik is very susceptible to crouch canceling but a good Sheik player will adapt quickly. They’ll start throwing out needles to increase your damage or force you to approach and they will grab instead of tilting. You just need to adapt to this change and punish. NZA basically covered the grab follow ups, but just to reiterate: if they DI out, fair>regrab until she is close to the ledge then quickly forward throw, hopefully they’re still DIing out . If they DI in, bair into bair/uair/dair into whatever you want. Sheik is relatively good combo weight. If they DI up> uair chain into a nair/bair/dair, just try putting her off stage, it’s guaranteed damage when she is coming back. If you are recovering, make it as difficult as possible for her to snipe you with needles. It’s easier said than done, but try to learn the areas she can’t hit, such as steep angles from the ledge. Overall, it’s a hard match up and you have to use all of your tools. Just keep playing it and you’ll figure it out. I played with DKWill’s Sheik A LOT and he used to clean me up pretty handily, but now I’m super good at the MU.
Stages to avoid: Fountain, Battlefield, PS2.

 

[ilysm]

Boiko, is there anywhere I can find more recent (3.5) footage of your Ness? I've hunted around on YouTube and found the same few videos from COA and that set against G$, but not much more. I'm the type who learns by watching a lot of footage, and judging from your advice and experience you seem like a good place to continue. Is there anywhere I'm not looking, like a Twitch archive or something?

 

[Boiko]

Boiko, is there anywhere I can find more recent (3.5) footage of your Ness? I've hunted around on YouTube and found the same few videos from COA and that set against G$, but not much more. I'm the type who learns by watching a lot of footage, and judging from your advice and experience you seem like a good place to continue. Is there anywhere I'm not looking, like a Twitch archive or something?

Unfortunately I don't have TOO much footage at the moment since my main weekly stopped streaming PM after 3.5 dropped. I have a few sets under the Free Saltines twitch archive and there are a few videos under that same youtube channel that posted the G$ video (mine, lol), of my recent tournament set with Animal.

I'll have a few more up this weekend though!

 

[Boiko]

Hi Ness Social! I'm the guy who did that character survey some time ago and have recently completed Ness. Or almost completed, it's mostly done but I have some strengths and weaknesses I wish to iron out but can't really confirm what's what (you can see here). I'm also struggling with how to summarize Ness's fighter archetype with as few words as possible because, well, does Ness even fit any archetype? Based on most people's responses it feels like Ness can be played in many ways. Right now I want to say he's essentially a jack-of-all-trades but with very unusual characteristics, or at least an unconventional kit that just plays out to be very flexible.

Any help is appreciated! Ness has always been one of those mysterious characters to me so I'd love to understand him better

The info looks great but definitely wildly inaccurate. I'd be happy to help when I'm not working.

 

[The_NZA]

Hi Ness Social! I'm the guy who did that character survey some time ago and have recently completed Ness. Or almost completed, it's mostly done but I have some strengths and weaknesses I wish to iron out but can't really confirm what's what (you can see here). I'm also struggling with how to summarize Ness's fighter archetype with as few words as possible because, well, does Ness even fit any archetype? Based on most people's responses it feels like Ness can be played in many ways. Right now I want to say he's essentially a jack-of-all-trades but with very unusual characteristics, or at least an unconventional kit that just plays out to be very flexible.

Any help is appreciated! Ness has always been one of those mysterious characters to me so I'd love to understand him better

Dude, do you have power points on every character like this? I think you did an amazing job categorizing the general summary of Ness, and if you have access to more powerpoints like this, i would love to have access to them so I can help build the knowledge base of some characters that I see less often! Would you be interested in messaging me your email address?

 

[Choice Scarf]

The info looks great but definitely wildly inaccurate. I'd be happy to help when I'm not working.

I'd love some pointers, so whenever you have the time. I also asked the subreddit and someone said he's rushdown and another said he's like Marth relying primarily on combos and spacing. Lol maybe everyone is saying an incomplete truth.

Dude, do you have power points on every character like this? I think you did an amazing job categorizing the general summary of Ness, and if you have access to more powerpoints like this, i would love to have access to them so I can help build the knowledge base of some characters that I see less often! Would you be interested in messaging me your email address?

Thanks for the vote of confidence! So all of the characters will eventually be on that one powerpoint, I just usually link whichever slide is relevant to the conversation. I'm still processing the rest of the characters since there's so much data. I track my progress on this thread.

I'd love some help if that's what you are offering! But are you offering to help finish the survey processing (which then yes PPT access for you) or are you interested in helping develop this type of resource that aims to better explain the characters for the widest skill range of players possible? I only ask because what the survey results say may not be the most accurate, but I'd like to preserve that since the results were mostly about first impressions when 3.5 came out. If you are more concerned with the accuracy of the info, then these spreadsheets I'm making concurrently may be what you're actually interested in.

 

[The Most Dangerous Snake]

Hey ness mains, I'm trying to pick up ness as a solid secondary among a few others (or possibly my main) because I have seen some sick stuff from him and enjoy playing him. My only problem is that I live somewhere where there aren't a ton of players, and therefore I don't get to practice against much of the cast.

So my question is, what are ness' bad matchups that I should absolutely avoid? And if I could get a brief rundown of what makes them so hard that would be great too. I can learn matchups and players fairly easy on the fly as long as it's not a super hard matchup or I have knowledge of what to do ahead of time. I'd really appreciate it!

 

[Boiko]

Hey ness mains, I'm trying to pick up ness as a solid secondary among a few others (or possibly my main) because I have seen some sick stuff from him and enjoy playing him. My only problem is that I live somewhere where there aren't a ton of players, and therefore I don't get to practice against much of the cast.

So my question is, what are ness' bad matchups that I should absolutely avoid? And if I could get a brief rundown of what makes them so hard that would be great too. I can learn matchups and players fairly easy on the fly as long as it's not a super hard matchup or I have knowledge of what to do ahead of time. I'd really appreciate it!

Hello!
In my opinion, Ness’ worst match ups are Sheik, Samus, and Zelda, with other difficult match ups including Marth, Mario, and Luigi. There are some others, but these are, in my opinion, the worst. Here’s why:

Sheik:
Sheik has some of the best edge guarding in the game, and her tools work extremely well against Ness. Her fair puts you below the ledge, forcing you to recover low. From that point, she can snipe you or your PKT with needles, causing you to fall helplessly. She can also edge guard you with bair super well and she has DI mix ups with dthrow and bthrow, one leading into a tipper up smash at kill percents. Getting in Sheik is extremely difficult and requires a lot of baiting and crouch cancel mix ups. Bright side is that once you get in, you can combo her super hard. I wrote a brief Sheik guide about two posts up.

Samus:
I wrote a quick guide for this match up somewhere also. I’ll try to find it. But to summarize, Samus is the worst combo weight in the game. She’s heavy and floaty, what this means is that she is less severely affected by gravity and she has less hit stun than lighter characters, as hit stun is directly correlated with knockback. You have very limited guaranteed follow ups on her. On the other hand, she can combo Ness quite well and harass him with projectiles off stage. He has an unfortunately linear recovery and ice mode fair will smack him right back off stage if he doesn’t sweet spot. Samus can also mix up recovery quite well, making edge guarding her a little difficult. You can kind of force her to recovery a certain way by throwing out PKT or PKFlash and then punish, but it’s easier said than done. Basically, to beat Samus, you have to play a lot of hit and run until you get something good. Just watch out because she can zone super well with zair and missiles.

Zelda:
People may disagree with me here, but I think this is one of Ness’ hardest match ups. Zelda has Din’s, which kind of forces Ness to approach, and that’s not what you want to do against Zelda. She’s a very defense based character and punishes approaches hard. Her kicks come out on frame 5 or 6, which is about as fast as your nair and they severely outrange most things you can do. Zelda’s midrange blind spot is still too far for Ness to punish on reaction. Plus, she is extremely floaty and difficult for Ness to combo. Edge guarding her is difficult because she can mix up her recovery and you really won’t know where a good Zelda player is going. Ness doesn’t have a lot of tools he can use here. Her nair also breaks up your pressure and she can force you to recover low with Din’s and dair you with ledge invincibility. The match up is just annoying.
Marth:
I really don’t mind this match up personally, but I know a lot of Ness players who find it difficult. Marth can outrange everything Ness can do, and a patient Marth is going to give you a hard time. Beating Marth is all about baiting his laggy moves and punishing. If he’s off stage, Ness can edge guard him very easily with rising nair>dair from the ledge. If Marth dash dances around a lot, he’s fishing for a hard commitment, in which case you need to respond by throwing out something with little end lag and trying to get him to approach. It’s tricky, but unless the Marth player is top level, they’re going to commit to something punishable eventually, you just need to take that as far as you can.

Mario:
This can be a very frustrating match up, let me tell you. I don’t have MUCH Mario experience, but Gallo whooped me by playing very well of Ness’ weaknesses. The cape will kill you, down throw fair is guaranteed until 130%, fireballs are chaotic to deal with and can kill your PKT. There are A LOT of things to watch out for. I can’t even begin to name them all…jab>down smash, dtilt>fair, up+b to get out of your combos, it’s tough. You can combo him reasonably well, but edge guarding can be difficult.

Luigi:
Same as Samus, really, where he’s difficult to combo and he can hit you hard. He has an extremely linear recovery so just jump out and dair him. It’s kind of hard to bait anything out of him because most of his tools allow him to weave in and out quickly or put him in the air, where his high priority nair will break up your combos. Just be patient, put him off stage and kill him. Don’t get grabbed, because he has guaranteed set ups at kill percents.

Sorry if this is brief, I’m at work. Hope this helps though.
Also, who is your main?

 

[IglooBuds]

Ness is the best character in the game.

 

[Boiko]

Ness is the best character in the game.

 

[_Chrome]

 

[The Most Dangerous Snake]

Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for! I main marth and then have some random secondaries I play with ness being the rising star.

Would you or someone mind going more in depth on the Marth match up from both sides? Or link me to somewhere it's already been discussed? I've only played the matchup once and probably due to my lack of experience and playing against an experienced ness who wrecked me I felt like it was a hard matchup for Marth.

 

[Akhenderson]

Marth absolutely destroys Ness in the match up 65-35 or 60-40 in Marth's favor at worst.
His great disjoints and Ness's weight make him easy to combo, and if the Ness doesn't DI properly, a 0-Death is possible with a simple fthrow -> fthrow -> fthrow -> fsmash on Fountain of Dreams, and even if you don't bother going for those, his attacks should chain together with ease racking up quick damage for later edgeguard attempts or tipper kills.

Because of Marth's disjoints allow him to simply play the defensive while Ness has to constantly approach, something Ness isn't really great at doing because all of his options are unsafe on block. Along with the disjoints Marth has, it makes Ness's recovery look even worse than it already is.

On Marth's side, he doesn't want to get offstage because that's where he's incredibly weak while Ness is at a huge advantage because of his lengthy recovery. (I did say his recovery is terrible, but only when the opponent is ready to edgeguard. If the opponent isn't there to edgeguard you, it's a pretty good recovery.)
All Marth needs to do is outspace him with his range. However, if you space improperly, you're going to get hit with high damaging combos. What makes this match up so much in favor of Marth however, is the fact that his spacing is literally where Ness wants to be, except while Ness's hitconfirms leads into combos, yours lead into kills.

 

[Boiko]

Marth absolutely destroys Ness in the match up 65-35 or 60-40 in Marth's favor at worst.
His great disjoints and Ness's weight make him easy to combo, and if the Ness doesn't DI properly, a 0-Death is possible with a simple fthrow -> fthrow -> fthrow -> fsmash on Fountain of Dreams, and even if you don't bother going for those, his attacks should chain together with ease racking up quick damage for later edgeguard attempts or tipper kills.

Because of Marth's disjoints allow him to simply play the defensive while Ness has to constantly approach, something Ness isn't really great at doing because all of his options are unsafe on block. Along with the disjoints Marth has, it makes Ness's recovery look even worse than it already is.

On Marth's side, he doesn't want to get offstage because that's where he's incredibly weak while Ness is at a huge advantage because of his lengthy recovery. (I did say his recovery is terrible, but only when the opponent is ready to edgeguard. If the opponent isn't there to edgeguard you, it's a pretty good recovery.)
All Marth needs to do is outspace him with his range. However, if you space improperly, you're going to get hit with high damaging combos. What makes this match up so much in favor of Marth however, is the fact that his spacing is literally where Ness wants to be, except while Ness's hitconfirms leads into combos, yours lead into kills.

Idk, I don't think it's that bad. Ness is so good at baiting Marth to attack by weaving in and out of his range and most of Marth's moves are laggy. If you play his patient/defensive game, yeah, you get punished really hard, but you just need to be ready to DI his combos and they're not that bad. Idk, I kind of like it, maybe I'm just crazy.

 

[PMMikey]

I've heard a lot of people say that they prefer lucas or that lucas is better, what do you think of that?

 

[FamiGrafx]

I think Lucas is generally a stronger character than Ness, but I don't think Ness is just a worse Lucas at all. They're way too different to warrant a direct comparison. With PM changing Lucas's specials to such a degree, and with every A attack not even really resembling each other outside of fsmash, their only major similarity is DJC. They've got completely different tools.

Ness's fsmash destroys Peach's counter. It actually reflects Toad's spores back. I don't know how commonly known this is, but it's one of my favorite interactions in the game now.

 

[ilysm]

So this might be an odd question (and not entirely Ness-specific), but how do you guys combat twitchy fingers? I'm ridiculous about this, and this and my habit of what I call Hair Spacing are my two biggest weaknesses as a player right now. Ness's dair has a startup of what, five or six frames? Sometimes I djc so low to the ground that no hitbox comes out. I choke and get punished. Magnet is cancellable by fame...10, 11? Somewhere like that. I am constantly hitting Y before then and just floating around like a doofus. I get punished. Sometimes when I try to wavedash I hit L before I've even moved the control stick and I just airdodge in place. Get punished. Sometimes I try to do a SHFFL or DJCFFL aerial and miss the aerial part entirely, so I end up airdodging or wavedashing when I hit L. Punish. Sometimes I try to grab and (I have no clue why this happens but I feel like it might be due to how quickly and lightly I tap the button) I just wind up briefly shielding, It looks so stupid and I get hit. I play against this Falco I know so often (my third least favorite matchup in the entire game now) and I feel like if everything I do isn't lightning fast I'm not going to beat him out. Some matches it seems that he can just mash and throw out hitboxes and no matter how much I roll, shield, spotdodge, or get him to misspace it, I'll get hit because his moves are just coming out too quickly for me to do anything. So my fingers are flying all over the place and I can't get a grip on what my hands are actually doing. I'm moving too fast. I just got done playing a set and I'm having trouble typing this because I'm such a spaz. And this is just friendlies. I shudder to think how I'd do with tourney nerves. Any advice on how to slow down and take it easy in-match?

 

[PMMikey]

So this might be an odd question (and not entirely Ness-specific), but how do you guys combat twitchy fingers? I'm ridiculous about this, and this and my habit of what I call Hair Spacing are my two biggest weaknesses as a player right now. Ness's dair has a startup of what, five or six frames? Sometimes I djc so low to the ground that no hitbox comes out. I choke and get punished. Magnet is cancellable by fame...10, 11? Somewhere like that. I am constantly hitting Y before then and just floating around like a doofus. I get punished. Sometimes when I try to wavedash I hit L before I've even moved the control stick and I just airdodge in place. Get punished. Sometimes I try to do a SHFFL or DJCFFL aerial and miss the aerial part entirely, so I end up airdodging or wavedashing when I hit L. Punish. I play against this Falco I know so often (my third least favorite matchup in the entire game now) and I feel like if everything I do isn't lightning fast I'm not going to beat him out. So my fingers are flying all over the place and I can't get a grip on what my hands are actually doing. I'm moving too fast. I just got done playing a set and I'm having trouble typing this because I'm such a spaz. And this is just friendlies. I shudder to think how I'd do with tourney nerves. Any advice on how to slow down and take it easy in-match?

I'm right there with you buddy.

 

[Gazer]

Why did it take me 4 years to make a smashboards account with all this juicy info?

Im a big Ness player, but even a bigger fan of these threads here. If the Ness section is still active, I do have some questions myself to ask for base improvement.

 

[PMMikey]

Why did it take me 4 years to make a smashboards account with all this juicy info?

Im a big Ness player, but even a bigger fan of these threads here. If the Ness section is still active, I do have some questions myself to ask for base improvement.

Welcome to smashboards and what do you want to ask?

 

[Gazer]

Just some simple stuff, like would you use Y over X for jump? and what uses you could get out of the R button so I dont rely on L for everything. I watched all of Boikos vids in the pinned post and was floored. I developed such an odd Ness because I literally learned the character on my own. Im sure I could think of more, but I would have to fail some new strats shown in those videos enough to ask how to get around it.

Thanks for the reply by the way. Didnt take long at all.

 

[Boiko]

Just some simple stuff, like would you use Y over X for jump? and what uses you could get out of the R button so I dont rely on L for everything. I watched all of Boikos vids in the pinned post and was floored. I developed such an odd Ness because I literally learned the character on my own. Im sure I could think of more, but I would have to fail some new strats shown in those videos enough to ask how to get around it.

Thanks for the reply by the way. Didnt take long at all.

Oh hey.
I use Y and X for jump, personally. I almost always use Y, but in weird circumstances, like a DJC wavedash, I'll slide my finger across both. I use R for footstools. Everything else for me is completely standard. You just need to play what feels comfortable.

 

[Gazer]

Gonna be honest here, my customs are totally jank. And I am wanting to switch it up a bit and get used to something else.

Tap jump off (which I see is my biggest mistake)

Y to shield, because like you said... I roll my thumb from X to Y for wave dashes so it basically replaces my R. Weird right?

 

[Boiko]

Hey, as long as it works for you, haha.

I came from melee, so I try to keep everything as standard as possible.

 

[silkys]

So this might be an odd question (and not entirely Ness-specific), but how do you guys combat twitchy fingers? I'm ridiculous about this, and this and my habit of what I call Hair Spacing are my two biggest weaknesses as a player right now. Ness's dair has a startup of what, five or six frames? Sometimes I djc so low to the ground that no hitbox comes out. I choke and get punished. Magnet is cancellable by fame...10, 11? Somewhere like that. I am constantly hitting Y before then and just floating around like a doofus. I get punished. Sometimes when I try to wavedash I hit L before I've even moved the control stick and I just airdodge in place. Get punished. Sometimes I try to do a SHFFL or DJCFFL aerial and miss the aerial part entirely, so I end up airdodging or wavedashing when I hit L. Punish. Sometimes I try to grab and (I have no clue why this happens but I feel like it might be due to how quickly and lightly I tap the button) I just wind up briefly shielding, It looks so stupid and I get hit. I play against this Falco I know so often (my third least favorite matchup in the entire game now) and I feel like if everything I do isn't lightning fast I'm not going to beat him out. Some matches it seems that he can just mash and throw out hitboxes and no matter how much I roll, shield, spotdodge, or get him to misspace it, I'll get hit because his moves are just coming out too quickly for me to do anything. So my fingers are flying all over the place and I can't get a grip on what my hands are actually doing. I'm moving too fast. I just got done playing a set and I'm having trouble typing this because I'm such a spaz. And this is just friendlies. I shudder to think how I'd do with tourney nerves. Any advice on how to slow down and take it easy in-match?

The only way I can really tell you how to calm down in game is to play more. When you go to tourneys often your nerves calm down and you treat every game like "just another game" (cause that's what it is). Other than that, other good things to keep calm is finding something occupying to keep you in rhythm. Some things like a jiggly leg or whistling or just remembering to collect yourself in between stocks helps your nerves too. Maybe try listening to calming music as well. I know Frank Ocean always gets me in a groove when I'm playing. Hopefully this will keep your inputs consistent!

 

[GMaster171]

Booted up the game again by myself and got some numbers for floaties. I have a proposal that I want discussed too so I'll bold it:g

Ness players are too reliant on grabs, resulting in them struggling against floaty characters.

As I said I went into training mode and got % for other kill moves (all assuming no DI, I'll explain why in a moment and on FD)

Now the reason I left out DI was due to the fact that good DI for dair/uair is terrible DI for fair/magnet, and vice versa. If you DI left/right on dair, you widen the Kill % for dair->uair by up to 20%. Similarly, if you don't DI DJC fair/magnet, it is a true combo to uair. This allows Ness a little 50/50 of sort when he gets near the opponent, and adding a crossup on shield, it becomes safe.

I didn't get bthrow for all characters since it seemed to align with uair killing. Note that the bthrow kills were from star KOs. Depending on the position the opponent could likely DI out more to avoid the death, i just wanted a base line.

Other interesting options include rising fair, which also combos to uair/nair and give a much better position than DJC, and PKF->uair which covers all SDI options, and allows enough time to react to a roll.

Compare these to bthrow, which stops having followups on these characters around 60-70%, and bthrow, which kills later than any of the setups here, I believe this may be the main struggling point for Ness players, since his throws have always been such a strong option up until now.

However these are just training mode examples as I haven't had the chance to play humans in awhile, so I'd like other's opinions on the matter. Responses are welcome.

 

[ilysm]

I've always been of the opinion that a lot of Ness players have been a bit too reliant on grabs. One of the marks of a great Ness in my opinion is their ability to tack on damage without fishing for a grab endlessly. It's definitely something I need to work on more. This is a really helpful spreadsheet. Thanks, GMaster!

 

[Boiko]

Just trying to clarify something on your table, take Jiggs for example, you have the dair>uair early kill % listed at 59%. Does this mean connect with the dair at 59% for a kill percent of ~85% mid stage after everything hits? EDIT: Oh wait, I get it now. <_____<

And one other quick note, fair isn't guaranteed into anything if they SDI. I've tested it numerous times against all characters.

Definitely appreciate all of this work you put in.
I 100 percent agree that Ness players (and most PM players) are too reliant on grabs. I think that's what separates good players from great players. Against lower level players, I bait out and punish grabs so often.

 

[the_irish_dude]

shoutouts to Hona

http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/36zof6/magnets_this_is_how_they_work/

 

[ilysm]

Does anyone else have a lot of problems with Falcon? I've seen this in other Nesses in tournament as well. The Falcon matchup seems to require Ness to play his heart out in the neutral, but if he gets grabbed or uaired once it generally winds up being a conversion into a death or a catastrophic edgeguard situation. But I don't like to cry foul on the matchup if there's something I could be doing differently.

 

[the_irish_dude]

falcon is a really hard matchup. I know Zeej had issues with Dark Rain and Frizz when 3.5 came out. He did beat Brandondorf at aftershock but it wasnt the prettiest

 

[Zero May Cry]

Falcon is difficult, but I think it's like 55:45 in Falcon's favor, so it's by no means unwinnable. The MU basically comes down to who gets grabbed first, so if you avoid that your life will be much easier. Take him to flat stages like FD if possible, and try to dash dance so that he commits to something and you get a grab or a grab setup. Falcon will tack on a lot of damage at one time so you want to try not to give him the advantage at all. I swear, this matchup is why I really want Ness to have a higher run speed, because Falcon's dash dance and dd nair just kind of wreck Ness sometimes, it feels like.