Q&A OK desu ka? - Lucas Q&A Thread

[MrWhYYZ]

Can anyone please explain to me how RAR-Zair works? I've seen a samus player run of the stage and do a RAR-Zair to the ledge to ledgetrump followed by a b-air. I can't get it to work with anyone as of yet but seeing how ledgetrump B-air is guaranteed with Lucas this could be a really good tool.

 

[JosePollo]

Can anyone please explain to me how RAR-Zair works? I've seen a samus player run of the stage and do a RAR-Zair to the ledge to ledgetrump followed by a b-air. I can't get it to work with anyone as of yet but seeing how ledgetrump B-air is guaranteed with Lucas this could be a really good tool.

I didn't even know that was a thing. Usually what I'll do is chase someone off-stage to try to gimp. If I miss, then I just put myself in a position to trump their recovery with zair. Just make sure you do the normal reel-in (where you just tap up) instead of a get-up reel-in (where you do a get-up immediately after reeling in by either jumping or rolling) because if you do the get-up reel-in you don't get the trump.

Also, is the back air actually guaranteed? I thought it only worked on fast-fallers if they jumped, and I'm pretty sure floaties can still air dodge to avoid it (being frame 15 at the earliest, and all).

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Also, is the back air actually guaranteed? I thought it only worked on fast-fallers if they jumped, and I'm pretty sure floaties can still air dodge to avoid it (being frame 15 at the earliest, and all).

If you ledgetrump with Z-air you can move 13 frames earlier than grabbing the ledge normally.
That's the only way to get a guaranteed B-air.

 

[JosePollo]

If you ledgetrump with Z-air you can move 13 frames earlier than grabbing the ledge normally.
That's the only way to get a guaranteed B-air.

Huh. I didn't know that. Looks like I just need to practice the timing more, then.

 

[frozentreasure]

Huh. I didn't know that. Looks like I just need to practice the timing more, then.

There was a Link video detailing it; tether trumps have no lag upon holding the ledge, but keep two things in mind:

1) If you grab the ledge before the other player finishes their ledge grab animation, you won't trump them

2) Lucas is too floaty to just tap back to let go of the ledge; if you tap down to fast drop from the ledge after the trump, you can double jump backwards for the back air. From 47% onwards it's a KO.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

So, I've been practicing RAR Z-air and got it thrice yesterday. This is really hard
However killing anyone that doesn't commit to a option while hanging on the ledge at 47% is just way too good not to learn.

 

[JosePollo]

Speaking of ledge play, I've been having a hard time getting off the ledge recently. Obviously mixing up your get-up is always the most important part of getting back on-stage, but what are some reliable tricks you guys use when getting past an opponent waiting for you at the ledge? There's certain things I tend to do in various situations.

1. If the opponent is standing a couple of spaces away from the ledge (usually a projectile-heavy character or swordsmen) I'll do a jump get-up and use Lucas's aerial mobility in combination with his good air dodge to try to land, although it turns into a 50/50 since the opponent can wait for the air dodge, but it can start swinging one way or the other as the matches go on due to adaptations from both players. Alternatively, falling zair for the protective hitbox (sort of... it has like 0 shield stun or hitstun, so it's still pretty punishable unless you use it at full extension RIGHT before you land).

2. Against impatient players who commit to something trying to get a read, a simple dair of the ledge. If they have time to shield I'll back off, if they get caught I'll try to follow up with a falling nair to up tilt/grab (did they shield the nair?) to flip the situation around.

3. If I know a player likes to go for ledge trumps I'll mix up how fast I reel in from a tether. Sometimes this costs me stocks because my teching skills are abysmal.

Apart from working on my sub-par reaction time, any more advice you guys can share? Stuff you find decently reliable off the ledge.

 

[BornABrawler]

Speaking of ledge play, I've been having a hard time getting off the ledge recently. Obviously mixing up your get-up is always the most important part of getting back on-stage, but what are some reliable tricks you guys use when getting past an opponent waiting for you at the ledge? There's certain things I tend to do in various situations.

1. If the opponent is standing a couple of spaces away from the ledge (usually a projectile-heavy character or swordsmen) I'll do a jump get-up and use Lucas's aerial mobility in combination with his good air dodge to try to land, although it turns into a 50/50 since the opponent can wait for the air dodge, but it can start swinging one way or the other as the matches go on due to adaptations from both players. Alternatively, falling zair for the protective hitbox (sort of... it has like 0 shield stun or hitstun, so it's still pretty punishable unless you use it at full extension RIGHT before you land).

2. Against impatient players who commit to something trying to get a read, a simple dair of the ledge. If they have time to shield I'll back off, if they get caught I'll try to follow up with a falling nair to up tilt/grab (did they shield the nair?) to flip the situation around.

3. If I know a player likes to go for ledge trumps I'll mix up how fast I reel in from a tether. Sometimes this costs me stocks because my teching skills are abysmal.

Apart from working on my sub-par reaction time, any more advice you guys can share? Stuff you find decently reliable off the ledge.

I use the 1st option the most out of the 3 you mentioned, but I never even thought about the 2nd option. Interesting.

Something I do (Whether it's good or not I can't confirm) is drop from the ledge then double jump REALLY fast into f-air so that his foot hits just above the ledge. This can put an opponent in enough shield stun to pass by them, and if you hit it you can often times lead to another f-air. I catch a lot of people by surprise with this because it's so fast and aggressive. I wouldn't recommend overusing it though, because lots of characters can d-smash on reaction and either kill you or put you in a poor position; further away from the ledge and without a double jump, in free fall. So it can be a bit risky in retrospect.

Something else I tend to do is wait just before my invincibility frames on the ledge end, then put in a get up option. Most players close to the edge will already be charging a d-smash, or airborne for a d-air, in hopes of catching you out of your invincibility. So during that time I usually roll or airdodge onto the stage to avoid it all. If you manage to pull it off your opponent can be in a bad position, suffering from loss of stage control or being off the stage all together. This one can be a bit safer because your not as likely to get punished. That does mean you have to time it right though, or else you'll be taking a spike from Bayonetta's boot. I've done this enough however to learn the timing, so it might take some practice.

I guess one thing to ask yourself is, "what is getting me off-stage"? Is it the opponent's pressure, an over-commitment to a spike, camping near the ledge, etc.? If you have trouble on the ledge in general, you may want to work on stage control a bit to prevent that. Hope my advice didn't sound like utter nonsense. Either way, I hope you have a fantastic day!

 

[JosePollo]

I use the 1st option the most out of the 3 you mentioned, but I never even thought about the 2nd option. Interesting.

Something I do (Whether it's good or not I can't confirm) is drop from the ledge then double jump REALLY fast into f-air so that his foot hits just above the ledge. This can put an opponent in enough shield stun to pass by them, and if you hit it you can often times lead to another f-air. I catch a lot of people by surprise with this because it's so fast and aggressive. I wouldn't recommend overusing it though, because lots of characters can d-smash on reaction and either kill you or put you in a poor position; further away from the ledge and without a double jump, in free fall. So it can be a bit risky in retrospect.

Something else I tend to do is wait just before my invincibility frames on the ledge end, then put in a get up option. Most players close to the edge will already be charging a d-smash, or airborne for a d-air, in hopes of catching you out of your invincibility. So during that time I usually roll or airdodge onto the stage to avoid it all. If you manage to pull it off your opponent can be in a bad position, suffering from loss of stage control or being off the stage all together. This one can be a bit safer because your not as likely to get punished. That does mean you have to time it right though, or else you'll be taking a spike from Bayonetta's boot. I've done this enough however to learn the timing, so it might take some practice.

I guess one thing to ask yourself is, "what is getting me off-stage"? Is it the opponent's pressure, an over-commitment to a spike, camping near the ledge, etc.? If you have trouble on the ledge in general, you may want to work on stage control a bit to prevent that. Hope my advice didn't sound like utter nonsense. Either way, I hope you have a fantastic day!

Oh yeah I forgot about fair, too. Fair going up, then bair as I go past them. If you start the bair at the apex of his ledge jump you have ample time to auto-cancel it, although you have less lag overall if you land while the hitboxes are active (19 frames of endlag for the auto-cancel, 15 for landing lag). As for the ledge wait, sometimes I do it too much and lose the opportunity to get back because I gave the opponent time to settle.

I think I just need to read situations better.

Stage control IS something I struggle with, mainly because I play Lucas more aggressively than one should, which takes opponents by surprise sometimes, but tends to backfire against more patient players. I need to learn to be a little more patient and let situations come to me instead of always trying to force myself onto the opponent.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

I usually switch around with normal get-up ->shield, normal get-up ->D-tilt and Jump D-air.

 

[frozentreasure]

Unless you know the opponent is going to try and trump you, just wait. Use the invincibility that the game gives you, do nothing, and react to what the opponent does. Don't flinch the moment they start doing something, but if they do start doing something, then assess what your best option is.

Most of the time when I'm on the ledge my opponents try to hit with a smash, so I just neutral get-up through it, then retaliate. If you just want to get back on the stage, roll, then run for a retreating PK Fire.

I have a few other tricks I pull on opponents, but they're usually based around what the opponent is doing and what I know they're likely to do. Fall back, then PK Thunder past the ledge to hit the opponent charging a smash to punish your re-grab. Bounce yourself off the edge with PK Thunder for a quick re-Thunder to trick the opponent shielding at the ledge. Magnet cancel out of a jump. Fall down, then use the rope snake as you rise up to hit the opponent with a surprise hitbox through the floor, similar to the forward air. Float out off-stage to bait the opponent who wants to guard against you in that zone and get back to the stage before they do.

Most of the time, though, I default to the neutral get-up or a roll; partly because my regular local opponents are wise to the aggressive options, and partly because at the end of the day, the person who has the stage is eventually going to want to hit you while you're nice and vulnerable and hope for an early KO.

However killing anyone that doesn't commit to a option while hanging on the ledge at 47% is just way too good not to learn.

Considering they most likely will be at more than 47%, you could read the get-up option, grab them when they are between you and the ledge, then spike them from slightly higher up. Takes until around the 60s for it to be a guaranteed KO, if I recall correctly. Would work on characters with less-than-stellar vertical recoveries between 47 and there; or you could do a normal ledge trump, wait for them to use up their double jump and try to recover high, then catch them so they only have their up special. All the same result, but the important thing is to keep them guessing. Especially if you do the tether trump once, convince them to buffer an option and then grab or smash them out of that option.

 

[JosePollo]

Unless you know the opponent is going to try and trump you, just wait. Use the invincibility that the game gives you, do nothing, and react to what the opponent does. Don't flinch the moment they start doing something, but if they do start doing something, then assess what your best option is.

Most of the time when I'm on the ledge my opponents try to hit with a smash, so I just neutral get-up through it, then retaliate. If you just want to get back on the stage, roll, then run for a retreating PK Fire.

I have a few other tricks I pull on opponents, but they're usually based around what the opponent is doing and what I know they're likely to do. Fall back, then PK Thunder past the ledge to hit the opponent charging a smash to punish your re-grab. Bounce yourself off the edge with PK Thunder for a quick re-Thunder to trick the opponent shielding at the ledge. Magnet cancel out of a jump. Fall down, then use the rope snake as you rise up to hit the opponent with a surprise hitbox through the floor, similar to the forward air. Float out off-stage to bait the opponent who wants to guard against you in that zone and get back to the stage before they do.

Most of the time, though, I default to the neutral get-up or a roll; partly because my regular local opponents are wise to the aggressive options, and partly because at the end of the day, the person who has the stage is eventually going to want to hit you while you're nice and vulnerable and hope for an early KO.



Considering they most likely will be at more than 47%, you could read the get-up option, grab them when they are between you and the ledge, then spike them from slightly higher up. Takes until around the 60s for it to be a guaranteed KO, if I recall correctly. Would work on characters with less-than-stellar vertical recoveries between 47 and there; or you could do a normal ledge trump, wait for them to use up their double jump and try to recover high, then catch them so they only have their up special. All the same result, but the important thing is to keep them guessing. Especially if you do the tether trump once, convince them to buffer an option and then grab or smash them out of that option.

Speaking of PK Thunder, one time I took a stock off of FOW by doing PKT2 to the ledge from above the stage. He ALWAYS chases you offstage so he got caught, except what happens in that situation is Lucas grabs the ledge and your opponent keeps going past the ledge, which meant downwards to his doom in this case, since that's the direction I was going in.

I promptly lost the set afterwards lol.

 

[Drippy]

I used to be a Lucas main on release and I used to lab this footstool combo discover for him first week which was Dthrow -> Footstool -> Down B to stall momentum -> Fair Reset -> Ftilt Reset -> Up Smash for 0% - 45%. Not being kept up with the Lucas meta but is this something Lucas mains still practice or is deemed too unoptimal? If it is still optimal, is there a way to determine what way a opponent falls after a footstool? Are there other footstool combos Lucas mains have been labbing?

edit: i'm reading DThrow>Nair>Footstool>Dair>Jab Lock and DThrow>Nair>Footstool>Fair>Jab Lock

 

[MrWhYYZ]

I used to be a Lucas main on release and I used to lab this footstool combo discover for him first week which was Dthrow -> Footstool -> Down B to stall momentum -> Fair Reset -> Ftilt Reset -> Up Smash for 0% - 45%. Not being kept up with the Lucas meta but is this something Lucas mains still practice or is deemed too unoptimal? If it is still optimal, is there a way to determine what way a opponent falls after a footstool? Are there other footstool combos Lucas mains have been labbing?

edit: i'm reading DThrow>Nair>Footstool>Dair>Jab Lock and DThrow>Nair>Footstool>Fair>Jab Lock

No one does footstool magnet momentum cancel anymore because you need to predict and not react.
It's either DThrow>Nair>Footstool>Dair>F-tilt unless they're fastfallers and know how to DI then just do DThrow>Footstool>Dair>F-tilt>

 

[Drippy]

No one does footstool magnet momentum cancel anymore because you need to predict and not react.
It's either DThrow>Nair>Footstool>Dair>F-tilt unless they're fastfallers and know how to DI then just do DThrow>Footstool>Dair>F-tilt>

Alright thanks because I practiced it a lot on release so I still got the muscle memory down but predicting the way they fell was a ***** both back than and now.

 

[frozentreasure]

If your opponent doesn't SDI properly, just do neutral air->neutral air->up air for a total of 43%.

 

[JosePollo]

I used to be a Lucas main on release and I used to lab this footstool combo discover for him first week which was Dthrow -> Footstool -> Down B to stall momentum -> Fair Reset -> Ftilt Reset -> Up Smash for 0% - 45%. Not being kept up with the Lucas meta but is this something Lucas mains still practice or is deemed too unoptimal? If it is still optimal, is there a way to determine what way a opponent falls after a footstool? Are there other footstool combos Lucas mains have been labbing?

edit: i'm reading DThrow>Nair>Footstool>Dair>Jab Lock and DThrow>Nair>Footstool>Fair>Jab Lock

Down throw > nair > footstool > down air is the more reliable set-up (once you learn the timing), but is dependant on having enough space to go though 34 frames of down air un-interrupted, while the magnet stall can be useful on stages like Lylat and Battlefield where the platforms can easily get in the way of down air if the opponent DI's the footstool.

Against fast-fallers I usually start off with down throw up air from 0% and see if they try to aerial out. If they do I'll cover their landing with a grab, then go into a footstool attempt for a more extended combo.

 

[luke_atyeo]

hey dudes, I'm trying to collect a bunch of quick easy info graphics on essential character knowledge to make a quick reference guide for commentators (we all hate it when a commentator says something that is wrong)
This shulk thing here is an example of the kinda stuff I am looking for

I'm going around to all the character boards and it'll be a little messy for me to try and check them all, so if you have any cool things like that, or just some useful info that I could turn into a similar picture, please send me a message. Cheers lads.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I lost to Mekos 2-0 at a tourney today. I'll have the replay uploaded here once they're available.

In the meantime, was hoping I could get some strong advice on how to DI/SDI his moves, combos, and setups, particularly any of his grab setups. I tend to struggle quite a bit in neutral and any kind of approach against Lucas.

Does he fear anything Ike throws at him?

 

[TipO'TheMorning]

Who should i make my secondary if i main lucas?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

You guys could join the lucas discord, since the activity is not a lot here from my experience and a few people did not get responses to their questions. But to answer your question I have heard that the characters in the meta can be good secondaries for matchups that you may struggle in as lucas.

Link to Discord server: https://discord.gg/N6PQhxy

Edit: luke_atyeo

 

[Faceless]

I picked up Lucas recently.
I constantly found myself not landing all the kicks of dair, my opponent only gets hit with the two first kicks.
Do I need to do something during the attack to make the last kicks connect???
Thanks