Q&A OK desu ka? - Lucas Q&A Thread

[TewnLeenk]

Boing! Welcome to The Lucas Q&A Thread. This thread will be used to ask and answer any Lucas specific questions that people may have.


This thread will remain locked until Lucas is released for Super Smash Bros Wii U/3DS

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[Aunt Jemima]

This thread is now unlocked. Ask questions 'n stuffs!

 

[monkokaio]

Can Lucas still do his d-air, d-tilt lock?

 

[Vermillion]

PKT2 is so much weaker than Ness', same for the bat it feels, USmash takes an hour to come out, no kill throw except at about 170% or at the edge of the stage and / or with rage, no throw combos at high %; how does Lucas kill exactly ?
It's weird that Ness could get all those early KOs, but Lucas doesn't work like that at all despite having practically the same moves.

Although : I could definetly see Nair or Dair being used to gimp / spike ennemies off stage

Another thing that Ness does better, Lucas' side B doesn't allow free grabs which is sad.

On the plus side, Lucas has lagless, strong aerials, and a plethora of follow ups from landing Nair. (in my opinion)

 

[nessokman]

I can't play right now, so a quick question.

Does the physics glitch recovery still work like brawl? Where you double jump, PK fire in the opposite direction you jump, and then down b for a speedy horizontal launch.

 

[PKPenguin]

PKT2 is so much weaker than Ness', same for the bat it feels, USmash takes an hour to come out, no kill throw except at about 170% or at the edge of the stage and / or with rage, no throw combos at high %; how does Lucas kill exactly ?
It's weird that Ness could get all those early KOs, but Lucas doesn't work like that at all despite having practically the same moves.

Although : I could definetly see Nair or Dair being used to gimp / spike ennemies off stage

Another thing that Ness does better, Lucas' side B doesn't allow free grabs which is sad.

On the plus side, Lucas has lagless, strong aerials, and a plethora of follow ups from landing Nair. (in my opinion)

In my experience so far, Lucas gets a lot of kills by offstage and aerial play. Down and back aerials both spike and come out really quickly, and even without spiking both are still very strong (dair has multiple hit boxes which can gimp, bair has a very strong horizontal launch).
Lucas can get kill throws using his upthrow fairly reliably at around 130%-140+% (not fully accounting for heavier characters, I haven't had too much time to test) which, while they require more damage than the Ness backthrow, do not require you to position yourself at the side of the stage since they kill off the top.
Lucas can also get kills with his utilt, athough that requires a lot of damage in advanced and isn't reliable (but if you have rage is probably not a bad option).
Up and down smashes are strong and reliable kills but practically require some heavy mind games or for you to read an attack and punish accordingly due to the startup time. In general I find usmash to work better because it does have some slight horizontal reach, but dsmash can function as a powerful spacing option.
Sidesmash is much weaker but comes out very quickly, making it less good for kills but very handy for getting a quick hit or two in at the start of a match to build damage. It can also knock an opponent off the edge setting up for bair or dair kills. (EDIT: I'd like to say that after much more time playing with Lucas, I've found sidesmash to be a very reliable kill option even at around 110% (provided you position yourself close to the edge), and shouldn't be underestimated as a kill option. It's also really handy for punishing rolls due to it's speed.)

All in all, though, I'd say Lucas is only better at getting kills than Ness if you're very outgoing with your air and offstage game. Bair and dair kills are your most reliable kill options, and getting kills (at least from what I've found; the meta could change any moment) generally involves setting an opponent up to be offstage then unloading a meteor or two on them.
But again, I'd like to restate that the meta is literally less than a day old, so take this all with a grain of salt; if you want to get kills with Lucas, get out there and experiment until you can find a way that works! Hope this helps!

 

[BibbledyJello]

I can't play right now, so a quick question.

Does the physics glitch recovery still work like brawl? Where you double jump, PK fire in the opposite direction you jump, and then down b for a speedy horizontal launch.

I don't think this is in the game, tried it and got nothing. But I may have been doing it wrong. The cooldown time (sorry, I suck at official terms) after using PK Fire seems too long to use a down-b right after.
Regardless, Lucas feels like a poor man's Ness in Smash 4, for the reasons @ Vermillion mentioned. Well, unless you spam spikes. Personally I'm not great at them, so as of now Lucas is not so appealing to me. Is there an AT thread yet?

 

[KanjiGames]

I really suck at timing the fastfall on the D-throw > foodstool > dairlock
Are there some tricks? or schould I just practice over and over? tried it like over an hour and only got a few locks because I tried to fastfall too early or fastfalled too late and the dair did hit but didn't lock.
I really hate that timing xD

C-Stick is on attack. Tested double Tap down on Smashstick and it worked pretty well but I dont like Smashes omn C-Stick at all.

 

[divade]

I really suck at timing the fastfall on the D-throw > foodstool > dairlock
Are there some tricks? or schould I just practice over and over? tried it like over an hour and only got a few locks because I tried to fastfall too early or fastfalled too late and the dair did hit but didn't lock.
I really hate that timing xD

C-Stick is on attack. Tested double Tap down on Smashstick and it worked pretty well but I dont like Smashes omn C-Stick at all.

I gave it a good 30 minutes and couldn't get any progress or trick learning points to it.

Also people this is a Q and A, take moveset discussion to the analysis thread please.

 

[Drippy]

PKT2 is so much weaker than Ness', same for the bat it feels, USmash takes an hour to come out, no kill throw except at about 170% or at the edge of the stage and / or with rage, no throw combos at high %; how does Lucas kill exactly ?
It's weird that Ness could get all those early KOs, but Lucas doesn't work like that at all despite having practically the same moves.

Although : I could definetly see Nair or Dair being used to gimp / spike ennemies off stage

Another thing that Ness does better, Lucas' side B doesn't allow free grabs which is sad.

On the plus side, Lucas has lagless, strong aerials, and a plethora of follow ups from landing Nair. (in my opinion)

Lucas has a REALLY hard time killing and playing NAKAT on stream today, he said himself Lucas struggles really hard with getting kills. From my own personal experiences, your primary kill options are Up Throw and Back Throw and I don't think they kill as late as you say they do and I definitely have killed people a lot earlier than that without rage if I recall correctly and well with rage, it kills pretty early. Aside from his throws, really the best kill options for Lucas though are probably F-Smash (safest of his smash attacks and kills early on the ledge), Up Airs, or just going off-stage for those Side B, F-Air, or B-Air kills and it's pretty crucial that you learn how to ledge trump so you can do a ledge trump into Down Smash or B-Air spike. I wouldn't recommend using Up Smash or Down Smash much at all as they're moves that should really only be used for hard reads or punishes otherwise whiffing the attack is a guaranteed heavy punish for the enemy. You have to play be really patient with Lucas and slowly rack up damage and it's essential you keep your spacing and go in for those punishes whenever you can.

 

[phili]

For those struggling with kills, I also recommend using PK thunder to edgeguard. This only works on characters with relatively poor recovery, such as roy, little mac, doctor mario, etc. Since these characters are basically forced to recovery to the ledge, place your bolt right around the ledge and kind of make circles. If you hit with the tail of the bolt, it should push opponents away from the stage. I've gotten quite a few kills on Roy at 20% or less using this tactic. Hope this helps a bit.

EDIT: Please do not try this against characters like Pikachu who can avoid the bolt and get on stage quickly because Lucas has a large amount of end lag from this attack and a character that can get on stage quickly will get a hard punish if you miss them

 

[BibbledyJello]

it's pretty crucial that you learn how to ledge trump so you can do a ledge trump into Down Smash or B-Air spike.

I know that a way to ledge trump with Lucas is to jump off, then use his grab to snag the ledge so that your opponent and snake are holding on at the same time, then zip up, and boot them off. Is that correct?
Because his tether grab has failed me too many times to count, personally. I play on the 3DS (I know, I know) and I set my grab to Y. Sometimes when I've been hit off the side, I'll press Y (Which is set to grab) and get a Nair instead. The Zair won't even come out.
So something I theorized is that you must use your double jump before a tether grab is used. But I'm still not sure about the whole process. Could somebody fill me in?

 

[Ridel]

So what set-ups does Z-Air offer? I've been using it as a quick spacing tool, but haven't found any follow-ups out of it as of now.

Also I'm not quite sure how I should be using his D-Air. I use it for edge-guarding occasionally, but I'm not sure if it has any onstage uses.

 

[abx]

How would you deal with rolling when playing as Lucas? I often find myself in a situation where someone approaches Lucas and rolls himself right behind Lucas so that down smash doesn't cover him. I have no idea how I could effectively punish massive rolling.

 

[phili]

I know that a way to ledge trump with Lucas is to jump off, then use his grab to snag the ledge so that your opponent and snake are holding on at the same time, then zip up, and boot them off. Is that correct?
Because his tether grab has failed me too many times to count, personally. I play on the 3DS (I know, I know) and I set my grab to Y. Sometimes when I've been hit off the side, I'll press Y (Which is set to grab) and get a Nair instead. The Zair won't even come out.
So something I theorized is that you must use your double jump before a tether grab is used. But I'm still not sure about the whole process. Could somebody fill me in?

The reason you get nair instead of zair is because you are still in a tumble animation. If Lucas is tumbling because he got hit off stage, nair will come out when you hit the grab button. To solve this, either use your double jump, use an attack, or air dodge. After any of these actions, Lucas will no longer be in tumble and you can use zair to grab ledge

How would you deal with rolling when playing as Lucas? I often find myself in a situation where someone approaches Lucas and rolls himself right behind Lucas so that down smash doesn't cover him. I have no idea how I could effectively punish massive rolling.

I've been using PK Fire to cover rolls away from me. Also, short hop nair is a solid option for covering rolls behind you. It lasts a long time, and if you hit, you can start a combo with it. Lucas doesn't really have any moves that hit behind him on the ground though, so you have to rely on reads or quick reaction time to cover rolls behind

 

[BibbledyJello]

The reason you get nair instead of zair is because you are still in a tumble animation. If Lucas is tumbling because he got hit off stage, nair will come out when you hit the grab button. To solve this, either use your double jump, use an attack, or air dodge. After any of these actions, Lucas will no longer be in tumble and you can use zair to grab ledge

oml THANK YOU! So I was half right on the double jump thing, Oh, this changes a lot. :D

 

[Dumbfire]

How would you deal with rolling when playing as Lucas? I often find myself in a situation where someone approaches Lucas and rolls himself right behind Lucas so that down smash doesn't cover him. I have no idea how I could effectively punish massive rolling.

When they roll behind you just turn around then use one of your fast close-up moves. Jab is best (frame 2), but if they are too far away Ftilt (frame 7) will do fine. If you have the read use Fsmash or Grab. Key is simply turning around, since Lucas has nothing to hit behind him.

So what set-ups does Z-Air offer? I've been using it as a quick spacing tool, but haven't found any follow-ups out of it as of now.

It goes through projectiles too. It's not a combo move, Zairs never are save ZSS'. Watch some Link footage to get the idea. You can read their follow-up: shield with grab, jump with dash attack (you'll catch them in jump starting frames). Also if you space it at the tip and miss you can read what they do next: they'll often jump so you can catch them with full hop Fair or Nair, or walk up shield which yields you another grab.

A great "set-up" that Zair offers, though, is the Zair trump. When you trump normally, you have to time the trump well in order to get your follow-up. But after you grab the ledge with Zair you can act immediately, so regardless of your timing you can get a follow-up. Furthermore, normally when you try to trump but your opponent buffers a get-up attack, roll or jump, you won't get the trump -- you can avoid a non-perfectly timed tether trump with that too. But, if you trump with your tether and time it perfectly then do a normal-getup, you are in an advantageous position where you are ahead of your opponent in timing. If they do anything but one of the three get-ups just mentioned they'll be trumped -- if they do one of those you can easily punish them because you are already on-stage. This is especially useful against low recovers like Pit and Rosalina.

(Btw, Zair does actually "combo" into things when not spaced, but that's a pretty bad idea to be doing.)

 

[TriForceOmelet]

Do we know Lucas' weight ranking, speed/fall/speed/air speed rankings, etc?

 

[Leviair]

So does Lucas's pummel no longer do more damage if you hit it to the beat like it did in Brawl? I don't remember the timing.

 

[Deleted member]

Any tips for Back Air's usage and how to gurantee a kill? Does the opponent need to be right in with Lucas foot as soon as he magically attacks? Percentage requirement?

 

[phili]

Any tips for Back Air's usage and how to gurantee a kill? Does the opponent need to be right in with Lucas foot as soon as he magically attacks? Percentage requirement?

The spike hitbox is at the top of the attack right while lucas is upside down, and it lasts until the end of the move after that I believe. Practice it in training mode, it really doesn't take too long to get used to

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

How soon should I be pressing Bair before getting to the opponent to spike them consistently? I feel like my timing is off in real matches, yet in training I can do it most the time I try. The startup just feels weird to me, like it takes a while to come out. I have the timing for Dair down, just not this one.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

Okay, so this information is probably somewhere on the boards, but several google searches later, I can't seem to find it.

What are the main differences between Lucas and Ness? (and why is this not a stickied topic?)

 

[phili]

I know Lucas is only a week old, but has anyone figured out how Lucas is supposed to approach characters like ROB? I find it extremely hard to get in on characters like ROB who have physical projectiles which can't be absorbed by psi magnet.

Okay, so this information is probably somewhere on the boards, but several google searches later, I can't seem to find it.

What are the main differences between Lucas and Ness? (and why is this not a stickied topic?)

Traits of Lucas that Ness doesn't have:
- tether grab / tether recovery / zair attack
- PKT1 is multi hit
- PKT2 has much longer distance than Ness's, but kills much later than Ness's
- has 3 kill throws (bthrow, uthrow, fthrow)
- psi magnet (down b) has a hitbox and comes out in front of Lucas (rather than covering his body like Ness)
- PK fire always travels horizontally, even in the air
- PK fire bursts on contact, causing knockback instead of trapping the opponent
- Usmash and dsmash are much stronger than Ness's

Traits of Ness that Lucas doesn't have:
- grabs with hands, much faster than Lucas's but less range
- PKT1 is a single hit attack
- PKT2 goes shorter than Lucas's, but has much higher knockback
- Only 1 kill throw (bthrow), but much stronger than Lucas's kill throws
- PK fire has less range, and is angled at 45 degrees when used aerially
- PK fire traps the opponent with multiple hits
- Fsmash is much stronger than Lucas's
- Aerials have less landing lag than Lucas's

Similarities:
- Movement and jumps are very similar
- Psi magnet absorbs energy based projectiles to heal damage
- Fsmash reflects projectiles
- Both have great combos from dthrow
- High damage output
- Many disjointed hitboxes with high priority

 

[Funkermonster]

Not exactly a Lucas-exclusive question, but sometimes when Ipush the grab button and try to zair or tether grab when recovering, I end up doing a Nair or Fair instead. Why? How I break out of this habit? And are there any good uses for Dtilt? I don't find myself using it much when Ftilt exists since it seems to come out crazy fast.

 

[CrossXBeau]

Recently, it seems as if I have continued to play worse and worse. There are something that I feel like some of you guys could help me with. For instance, recently, an issue I've been having is my approach game with Lucas. Played a couple of matches, and what I saw was I would approach my opponent with Lucas and go into a forward A, my opponent would L-cancel downwards, and while I was still lagging from my move, he would strike. It seemed as if this was going on throughout the entire match and was very frustrating, as I would try to land several moves with failure. Is there something I could do to help my approach game with Lucas? How could I play spaced out better? Any tips?

 

[Dumbfire]

Not exactly a Lucas-exclusive question, but sometimes when Ipush the grab button and try to zair or tether grab when recovering, I end up doing a Nair or Fair instead. Why? How I break out of this habit?

There are problems with Zair buffering. You seem to get an attack when you buffer Zair out of hitstun. If you buffer it after one of your own attacks with the Z button you'll get an airdodge. A way to ensure that won't happen is to airdodge first, then press Z or A to cancel the airdodge into a Zair, you'll never get that again.

And are there any good uses for Dtilt? I don't find myself using it much when Ftilt exists since it seems to come out crazy fast.

There's this and other shenanigans near the ledge, and there's following it up with an Fsmash or using it in combination with Jab. Dtilt hits frame 3, which is 4 frames faster than our frame 7 Ftilt btw (jab is frame 2, Utilt frame 4).

Recently, it seems as if I have continued to play worse and worse. There are something that I feel like some of you guys could help me with. For instance, recently, an issue I've been having is my approach game with Lucas. Played a couple of matches, and what I saw was I would approach my opponent with Lucas and go into a forward A, my opponent would L-cancel downwards, and while I was still lagging from my move, he would strike. It seemed as if this was going on throughout the entire match and was very frustrating, as I would try to land several moves with failure. Is there something I could do to help my approach game with Lucas? How could I play spaced out better? Any tips?

I don't quite get your story, and your question is very broad. I would recommend providing us with a video for critique in the video thread, that would probably help you out a lot more than mere theorizing based on a small description.

 

[Strider_123]

hello fellow lucas players-
i was wondering what type is lucas (offensive or defensive?) and how to play him effectively? I would also LOVE to vs any fellow lucas players, but i only have the 3ds game.

 

[monkokaio]

Is anyone else having problems trying to turn around down smash? There have been so many times where I attempt this but he just ends up facing the same way and I whiff. Sometimes I'll hit with the backside of the move but that's not the point.

It seems significantly more difficult with Lucas than anyone else. Maybe I'm just crazy :/

 

[L9999]

And I thought approaching with Ness was hard. Lucas has like 0 options to approach. I hear everywhere about "use PK Fire and Zair", but I disagree. PK Fire is slow and has bad range. Ness's cheap imitation has more range. Yes, I tested it. Then the Zair snake is pathetic. It barely has any range and the landing lag is hindering. Then they say, use Nair. That thing is really easy to intercept and hard to use. Most of the time, I won't hit the final hit when the oponnent is grounded and I get jabbed in the face. Forget jabs, the lag is so awful an smash attack can be done. Fair is a crappy version of Zelda's fair.

Speaking of the snake, it is a terrible grab. The lack of grab armor and awful speed just guarantees I won't grab anyone right in front of me because either they roll away or the jab my face. And the range is bad as well.

And the "kill throws." They are really bad. BThrow only kills at the edge when both Lucas and the opponent are at 100% and UThrow when both are at 120% or more. Ness's kills at the edge at 100% and without any rage. This conditions really hinder a lot. Not only Lucas's grab sucks, his "kill throws" require certain percent of BOTH players and positioning that is REALLY strict.

And luck with that, the opponent can just camp Lucas from the edge because he has 0 approach options. And killing, is like, the 2 throws that I just mentioned, his Uair that has pathetic range, PK Thunder gimps, which Ness's cheap imitation does better btw, and Dair and Bair. These last two are Ness's Dair. Bair is awkward and requires freaky positioning, and Dair is the lottery. And landing is even worse than Ness! Dair does absolute nothing, so does back air, Nair is easily intercepted, and Uair is a joke.

And does anybody here feels Roy to be a bad matchup? Lucas can't touch Roy at all. PK Thunder is abysmally slow, PK Fire has bad range an 0% followups, the snake tickles him, the snake can't grab him in close quarters because disjointed jab/roll, and Roy punishes hard every single thing Lucas does. You just end up eating Side Smash, DED, and jabs the entire match. PK Thunder gimps you say. PK Thunder is abysmally slow. Then I play Ness and it's the complete opposite.

So my question is the exact same as @ Strider_123 asked.

 

[brainsh0ck]

Is anyone else having problems trying to turn around down smash? There have been so many times where I attempt this but he just ends up facing the same way and I whiff. Sometimes I'll hit with the backside of the move but that's not the point.

It seems significantly more difficult with Lucas than anyone else. Maybe I'm just crazy :/

i dont think you can pivot his down smash... or maybe the timing's different compared to other characters.

 

[Dumbfire]

hello fellow lucas players-
i was wondering what type is lucas (offensive or defensive?) and how to play him effectively? I would also LOVE to vs any fellow lucas players, but i only have the 3ds game.

Give the Lucas metagame some time to develop. You can join the Lucas Skype group to see if any Lucas players want to play.

Is anyone else having problems trying to turn around down smash? There have been so many times where I attempt this but he just ends up facing the same way and I whiff. Sometimes I'll hit with the backside of the move but that's not the point.

It seems significantly more difficult with Lucas than anyone else. Maybe I'm just crazy :/

No it works just fine for me -- you do mean just turning around then doing down smash right?

Speaking of the snake, it is a terrible grab. The lack of grab armor and awful speed just guarantees I won't grab anyone right in front of me because either they roll away or the jab my face. And the range is bad as well.

I agree his grab is bad, and a bad grab hurts a character a lot. It is good the grab pay-off is excellent, but it must be the worst tether grab. Link's grab was improved this patch, since it did not make sense for his Zair to be much longer: let use hope someting simlar happens with Lucas'.

 

[PKBeam]

pivoting down smash is just that - pivoting, then down smashing.

it's exactly the same as every character. you just have to make sure he actually is in the pivot animation before you input dsmash.

in brawl his grab was kind of bearable because you could at least pivot grab :/
now its just all around bad.

 

[phili]

And I thought approaching with Ness was hard. Lucas has like 0 options to approach. I hear everywhere about "use PK Fire and Zair", but I disagree. PK Fire is slow and has bad range. Ness's cheap imitation has more range. Yes, I tested it. Then the Zair snake is pathetic. It barely has any range and the landing lag is hindering. Then they say, use Nair. That thing is really easy to intercept and hard to use. Most of the time, I won't hit the final hit when the oponnent is grounded and I get jabbed in the face. Forget jabs, the lag is so awful an smash attack can be done. Fair is a crappy version of Zelda's fair.

Approaching with Lucas is hard against characters that like to camp such as ROB. But this is a problem that many characters face, and people who use those characters (such as DK, bowser, lucario, etc) have all found ways to deal with it. Therefore, I think Lucas players just need time to figure out the best way to deal with the campy characters.

As for approaching characters that aren't trying to camp the ledge, you can try to bait your opponent into approaches and punish their approaches with pivot grabs, pivot ftilts, PK fire, or SH nair out of shield. Mix up the baits with actual approaches such as run up shield, SH nair, cross up SH nair, and the occasional zair or dair.

And does anybody here feels Roy to be a bad matchup? Lucas can't touch Roy at all. PK Thunder is abysmally slow, PK Fire has bad range an 0% followups, the snake tickles him, the snake can't grab him in close quarters because disjointed jab/roll, and Roy punishes hard every single thing Lucas does. You just end up eating Side Smash, DED, and jabs the entire match. PK Thunder gimps you say. PK Thunder is abysmally slow. Then I play Ness and it's the complete opposite.

I actually think this matchup is in Lucas's favor. The two main reasons I think Lucas beats Roy are comboing and edgeguarding.

Roy is a fast faller, and therefore gets comboed very hard by Lucas. You can basically string SH nairs from one side of the stage to the other and Roy can't get out. Finish the string with an uair for 45% or more damage. Lucas is also very floaty, and this causes him to get out of some of Roy's combos earlier than other characters.

When it comes to edgeguarding Roy, this is extremely simple. Roy's recovery is super linear and has no mixups. Unlike Marth and Lucina, if Roy counters while off stage, he dies most of the time because of his fall speed. This makes it quite easy to go out there with fair, nair, bair, or dair and gimp Roy. Also, PK thunder destroys his recovery. I've killed many Roys at less than 50% by simply clipping them with PK thunder. Yes, this move is a lot slower than Ness's, but it is better at gimping as it can push the opponent away from the stage if you get the right hitbox. Ness's always pops them up and towards the stage and is more of an annoyance and combo tool rather than an actually gimping move.

Just stop over extending yourself with grabs and PK fires and you won't die at 50% to that stupid fsmash.

 

[Galaxian]

Are there any percentages to when Dthrow>utilt will work/stop connecting? Similar to Kirby's Bthrow>bair.

There are more damaging options, sure, but it's free damage off of a grab, so I can't complain.

 

[L9999]

Approaching with Lucas is hard against characters that like to camp such as ROB. But this is a problem that many characters face, and people who use those characters (such as DK, bowser, lucario, etc) have all found ways to deal with it. Therefore, I think Lucas players just need time to figure out the best way to deal with the campy characters.

As for approaching characters that aren't trying to camp the ledge, you can try to bait your opponent into approaches and punish their approaches with pivot grabs, pivot ftilts, PK fire, or SH nair out of shield. Mix up the baits with actual approaches such as run up shield, SH nair, cross up SH nair, and the occasional zair or dair.



I actually think this matchup is in Lucas's favor. The two main reasons I think Lucas beats Roy are comboing and edgeguarding.

Roy is a fast faller, and therefore gets comboed very hard by Lucas. You can basically string SH nairs from one side of the stage to the other and Roy can't get out. Finish the string with an uair for 45% or more damage. Lucas is also very floaty, and this causes him to get out of some of Roy's combos earlier than other characters.

When it comes to edgeguarding Roy, this is extremely simple. Roy's recovery is super linear and has no mixups. Unlike Marth and Lucina, if Roy counters while off stage, he dies most of the time because of his fall speed. This makes it quite easy to go out there with fair, nair, bair, or dair and gimp Roy. Also, PK thunder destroys his recovery. I've killed many Roys at less than 50% by simply clipping them with PK thunder. Yes, this move is a lot slower than Ness's, but it is better at gimping as it can push the opponent away from the stage if you get the right hitbox. Ness's always pops them up and towards the stage and is more of an annoyance and combo tool rather than an actually gimping move.

Just stop over extending yourself with grabs and PK fires and you won't die at 50% to that stupid fsmash.

Thanks for the tips. Been abusing jabs, tilts, fair, nair and bair lately. Also learning Uair juggles and other stuff. A question I have is how and when I use my smashes? I find Up Smash to be too situational/disrespect move. (Like PK Flash). Side Smash has the same garbage range as Ness's and Lucas has better options to intercept projectiles. I have killed with D-Smash with hard reads and I know of it's weird hitboxes but I still find it too situational.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Thanks for the tips. Been abusing jabs, tilts, fair, nair and bair lately. Also learning Uair juggles and other stuff. A question I have is how and when I use my smashes? I find Up Smash to be too situational/disrespect move. (Like PK Flash). Side Smash has the same garbage range as Ness's and Lucas has better options to intercept projectiles. I have killed with D-Smash with hard reads and I know of it's weird hitboxes but I still find it too situational.

U-smash can be used to hard read a get-up attack or roll,
F-smash is good for punishing on block
D-smash hits under the stage on SV,T&C and BF. Use it when people try to grab the ledge and occaisonally you'll stage spike them to their doom.

 

[phili]

Thanks for the tips. Been abusing jabs, tilts, fair, nair and bair lately. Also learning Uair juggles and other stuff. A question I have is how and when I use my smashes? I find Up Smash to be too situational/disrespect move. (Like PK Flash). Side Smash has the same garbage range as Ness's and Lucas has better options to intercept projectiles. I have killed with D-Smash with hard reads and I know of it's weird hitboxes but I still find it too situational.

I only use upsmash when I knock the opponent onto a platform and hard read their tech option.

However, fsmash and dsmash have good uses. Fsmash is quick and can be used to punish laggy moves and catch people landing with air dodges. Dsmash is what I used after ledge trumping someone. If they try to regrab ledge, use dsmash. The attack is so strong that it kills most opponents really early at the ledge. Also, the fact that it is 3 hits makes it really easy to time.

 

[PKBeam]

you can tank single hit moves with usmash's frames 1-5 invincibility.
so if you know someone's going to try and land with an aerial or SH Fair/Bair, then input usmash just before their attack's hitboxes activate, and you usually get a free usmash, charged or not depending on the move. doesnt work if they space it really well.

i remember usmashing oos another lucas' nair because i tanked the last hit of nair, which put him in a ton of hitlag and allowed Usmash to finish startup.

that's not really reliable tho, so you can't depend on it.
usmash also beats badly placed recoveries and careless side-Bs.

dsmash to punish ledge invincibility or lack thereof, the third hit outranges some ledge sweetspots and the first hit nails unsweetspotted recoveries. also has really good killpower, so if you catch someone with it at the ledge they're probably not coming back. also beats rolls and spotdodges.

fsmash is just your go-to kill move. it's quick, not too easy to punish and still KOs well despite nerfs. also a quick reflector if you need to. kind of like lucina's.

 

[AirJordans]

Are there any percentages to when Dthrow>utilt will work/stop connecting? Similar to Kirby's Bthrow>bair.

There are more damaging options, sure, but it's free damage off of a grab, so I can't complain.

I always use this too. Super safe. I would say it works for average weighted characters up to 28% or so.