Q&A OK desu ka? - Lucas Q&A Thread

[SpenyEX]

Alright so, i've been trying to pick up Lucas and I have a few questions :

1. How should Lucas use his Z-Air? As a spacing tool? And what is his bread-n-butter combos out of Z-Air/PKFire?
2. What are Lucas' main differences from Ness? Can't seem to find anything on the subject.
3. Who does Lucas counter to most?

1. I mainly use Z-air for poking, spacing and getting a grab and PKFire for spacing and safely racking up damage.
2. Lucas tends to be more defensive than Ness, relying more on out spacing the opponent and forcing them into bad positions, rather racking up damage quickly and kill early like Ness can. The way I see it Ness has stronger options/tools but Lucas has more options/tools. I heard someone call Lucas a semi-defensive trickster and I feel that is very fitting.
3. I am not sure about who he counters but I feel like Ness, Dedede, Rob, Marth are generally in Lucas's favor.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Who does Lucas counter to most?

Biggest plus for Lucas is countering RosaLuma. Being able to exterminate Luma with extremely low risk if she tries to wall you out, her having a huge hitbox and dieing really early. (Killing her at 89% Halberd with up-throw with no rage! *sniff sniff I miss Halberd *sniff*) Also, pretty much anyone that doesn't snap the ledge with their Up-B (Cloud, Little Mac, Kirby) or has no active hitbox on their recovery (DHH, Villager, Pit, Olimar) or has a huge hurtbox can get gimped really easy with D-smash (DK, Cpt.falcon, Bowser).

Lucas loses against characters that can rush him down (Sonic, Sheik, Diddy), Have disruptive fast disjoints (Diddy, Cloud) or have a lingering projectile that can heavily hinder Lucas's Z-air/PK-fire zoning. (Tink, R.O.B)

Does the DThrow>Nair>Footstool>Dair>Jab Lock and DThrow>Nair>Footstool>Fair>Jab Lock still work after the patch?

Yes, N-air just does 4 damage more does change the percentages when it works but nothing has changed about D-air or is fallingspeed so it still works.

 

[SpenyEX]

Yes, N-air just does 4 damage more does change the percentages when it works but nothing has changed about D-air or is fallingspeed so it still works.

If damage works same way it does in other smash games than the damage should impact the amount of hitstun and knockback. I was not sure if this hit them to far to get the footstool. Do you know what percents it works on?

 

[MrWhYYZ]

If damage works same way it does in other smash games than the damage should impact the amount of hitstun and knockback. I was not sure if this hit them to far to get the footstool. Do you know what percents it works on?

Same percentages? The last hit of N-air hasn't changed which impacts hitstun and knockback.

 

[EmpireCrusher203]

Anyone know of a decent Lucas guide. I've used ones on Youtube such as Smash Corner or JoeKing, but they're just not working for me. Can anyone recommend me a Lucas guide that is for newcomers of Smash4 (a.k.a newbs) that also goes over decent training strategies for Lucas.

If not, can you please instead assess my on my Lucas gameplay. I recorded a replay of a For Glory battle for you. If you see any issues in my play, can you please correct me on it.

Thanks for the help!

 

[K3H]

Are there any moves that can consistently stop spin dash?

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Anyone know of a decent Lucas guide?

No, sorry. There aren't any good comprehensive guides.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSku9LAsMwc <- this might help though.
And for your match, never use Up-smash unless you are 100% certain it will hit.

Are there any moves that can consistently stop spin dash?

F-tilt, Mashing down tilt and N-air work. Grounded spindash either trades with N-air or N-air wins.

 

[K3H]

Is it plausible to time the 4 frames of invincibility on Usmash to parry incoming moves? I think it could be done, but I don't know what the charge frames are. Does anyone know how many frames there are before the frames of invincibility become active?

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Is it plausible to time the 4 frames of invincibility on Usmash to parry incoming moves? I think it could be done, but I don't know what the charge frames are. Does anyone know how many frames there are before the frames of invincibility become active?

Frame 1-4 invincible
Frame 1-28 start-up
Frame 29 hitbox.

It's not useful to parry single hitting moves, however it's extremely usful to parry multihitting smash attacks due the invincibility being that early + JCUp-smash. Stuff like Sheiks, Diddys, Clouds F-smash and even Rosaluma's dashattack can all be 100% guaranteed punished by blocking the first(And for cloud the second as well) and that using JCUp-smash to absorb the last hit and hitting them in the face as they recover.

 

[EmpireCrusher203]

No, sorry. There aren't any good comprehensive guides.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSku9LAsMwc <- this might help though.
And for your match, never use Up-smash unless you are 100% certain it will hit.

I found the video pretty helpful. And yeah, I like to spam PK Love, a LOT, even when I'm not supposed to. I guess I could use Up tilt as a replacement for Up smash. Up tilt is safer and takes up less frames (I learned that from the video )

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Well, since I need a secondary for , and since I thought either or will work, I need to ask some questions on their matchups.

For Lucas, who would you say are his best and worst matchups?

How would you deal with those bad matchups?

Is D-Throw -> N-Air -> N-air (or U-air) a good combo?

Feel free to be as mean as possible when answering my stupid questions!

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Well, since I need a secondary for , and since I thought either or will work, I need to ask some questions on their matchups.

For Lucas, who would you say are his best and worst matchups?

How would you deal with those bad matchups?

Is D-Throw -> N-Air -> N-air (or U-air) a good combo?

Feel free to be as mean as possible when answering my stupid questions!

Best (At least for characters that matter) would be RosaLuma and Luigi
Worst Diddy, and ZSS
In both cases you try to keep them away from you like you would with almost any match-up (With diddy you need to get the banana and keep it with you while zoning)
D-throw N-air U-air is a good combo and depending on the opponents you can get D-throw N-air N-air U-air or D-throw N-air U-air FF N-air N-air U-air.Pretty much all Lucas' combos are heavily percentage and rage dependant.

Honestly, I would go for Pikachu and just drop WFT even though she is viable ater all those buffs. Pikachu can be solo'd. PK-Spaarkboyz are a lot harder to solo.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Best (At least for characters that matter) would be RosaLuma and Luigi
Worst Diddy, and ZSS
In both cases you try to keep them away from you like you would with almost any match-up (With diddy you need to get the banana and keep it with you while zoning)
D-throw N-air U-air is a good combo and depending on the opponents you can get D-throw N-air N-air U-air or D-throw N-air U-air FF N-air N-air U-air.Pretty much all Lucas' combos are heavily percentage and rage dependant.

Honestly, I would go for Pikachu and just drop WFT even though she is viable ater all those buffs. Pikachu can be solo'd. PK-Spaarkboyz are a lot harder to solo.

You sir, can go do undescribable things to yourself.

but anyways thanks for the help.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

You sir, can go do undescribable things to yourself.

but anyways thanks for the help.

No problem, I've played a good amount against WFT so I know a bit what (s)he's capable off but if you truly like pikachu I would just go for it. You can always play WFT at the first or second round of a tournament for giggles.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

I'm keeping Wii Fit.

Fight me.

 

[EmpireCrusher203]

Is Mewtwo a good secondary for Lucas. If not, who is?

 

[PKSeedFlare]

Err.. I'm not sure if this has been answered or not but I have no clue how to go about Cloud's matchup.
I know the whole get him offstage and Down Smash shebang but other then that I have no idea what to do. Disjoints are weird to deal with. And I don't want to believe that all I can do is SH PK Fire and ZAir for 7 minutes.

 

[Shrug]

The Cloud matchup is a mystery to me as well. It feels especially rough once he gets Lucas above him. That up air is crazy! Any advice on the MU from better Lucases would be awesome.

A more general question: is there a comprehensive list of characters dthrow -> up air is true against at kill % (ideally with how high it works, but I'm not too picky)? Against floatier characters (Peach, Puff, Kirby), I don't seem to be able to land it. I'm just trying to figure out if my execution is off or if it's simply impossible.

How do you guys punish air dodges after down throw? When I can land true down throw -> uairs, I do just fine, but I have difficulties when characters start air dodging before I can reach them. I usually don't end up killing them until they die from an edgeguard, a kill throw, a fsmash/dsmash read, utilt (lol), or dash attack (looooool).

I'm trying to implement ledge trumps into my game. I've seen mixed information about this, so I hope someone can clarify. If you successfully get the trump, is the bair 100% guaranteed for Lucas? That's absolutely crazy if it's true. I don't play enough or see enough Lucas play to know.

I'm sort of thinking out loud for this next part, but if you guys have any input on it, I'd love to hear it.

What kinds of applications are there for PSI Magnet in edgeguards? Going off-stage and using it to stall seems really useful for off-stage option coverage. The hitbox sends at a pretty good angle (25 degrees! That's pretty horizontal!), making it pretty dangerous to get hit by off-stage.

On top of that, you can drop your magnet and double jump (assuming you still have you DJ) to cover higher recovery options. You can even stall again after your double jump to precisely position yourself. Then you can stall some more and wait to react to their recovery.

Alternatively, you can drop your magnet and fall for a bit. You can use an aerial to cover different areas or stall with the magnet again at a new height.

As if that's not enough, you can use your magnet to turn around for a bair or so that you can rope snake to the ledge.

Magnet just seems to offer some really good options for Lucas that don't require much commitment.

Hope this isn't TOO much of a text wall. I'm just really interested in learning a bit more about this awesome character.

 

[Lochy]

Does the DThrow>Nair>Footstool>Dair>Jab Lock and DThrow>Nair>Footstool>Fair>Jab Lock still work after the patch?

Yes it still does.

 

[JosePollo]

Err.. I'm not sure if this has been answered or not but I have no clue how to go about Cloud's matchup.
I know the whole get him offstage and Down Smash shebang but other then that I have no idea what to do. Disjoints are weird to deal with. And I don't want to believe that all I can do is SH PK Fire and ZAir for 7 minutes.

The down smash thing hardly ever works because you get hit by the huge up b hitbox no matter how well you time it. The safest edge guard is getting behind cloud for a back air as he's using his up b, since there's no hitboxes behind him. This only works if he's recovering low, though, since if he Recovers high it's kind of like trying to stop Bowser's down b. Up smash works, but y'know. Up smash.

As for on-stage, shield is pretty good against Cloud since he gets little more than stage control off of his throws after the initial down throw to side b at like 0% - 10%. As long as you remember that nair, bair, and up air all auto-cancel off of a short hop you're good to just hold shield any time he's in the air. Don't try to challenge his nair because none of Lucas's grounded (except for up smash) or aerial attacks outrange his sword and the attack covers his entire body.

Also, Lucas can do nothing if he's above cloud, so retreat any time you find yourself in that position. Cloud's offstage and ledge guarding game are kind of weak, so retreating to the ledge is almost never a bad idea when you're getting juggled. Really the only thing to watch out for at the ledge is down smash facing the ledge, since the first hit can reach under the ledge and put you in an untechable situation (since the hitbox will pull you into the stage).

 

[cstonic]

Is zair grab true? What about dtilt grab / jab grab / jab jab grab

 

[MrWhYYZ]

z-air -> Grab. Yes and a very specific range of damage (Around30/40ish?)
D-tilt -> Grab. Yes at high damage(100/130ish%)
Jab -grab/Jab jab grab. Never. You can't jab, jabcancel jab so Lucas's throw is way to slow.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

How good is your Z-Air at spacing/zoning?

 

[Login_Sinker]

How good is your Z-Air at spacing/zoning?

It's arguably Lucas's best zoning tool, and I think it's the best Zair in the game. It reaches for miles considering how small Lucas is, and it is much easier to use it low to the ground thanks to Lucas being short. Also, it can lead to many follow ups (sometimes true, sometimes not). I like to use it to approach and pressure shields in addition to controlling space. I also mix up the timing on it to keep foes on their toes. Sometimes I'll do Zair as I'm falling, sometimes I'll do it right as I do a short hop. All in all, it's a highly versatile tool, and one of the most important in Lucas's kit.

 

[nerdbot]

Is Mewtwo a good secondary for Lucas. If not, who is?

Mewtwo is, in my opinion, a good character to practice if you play characters who get out-projectile'd in certain matchups. I consider his reflect to be one of the best in the game. It kinda depends on how much the character works for you though.

 

[alexthepony]

Can pikachu duck under sh pk fires. I was just watching esam va xanos and Esam was crouching a lot.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Can pikachu duck under sh pk fires. I was just watching esam va xanos and Esam was crouching a lot.

Just tested it for you in training mode and pikachu cannot.

 

[JosePollo]

Can pikachu duck under sh pk fires. I was just watching esam va xanos and Esam was crouching a lot.

If he crawls forward he lowers his tail, but his normal crouch and backwards crawl both lift his tail up, making it easy to hit with PK Fire.

 

[alexthepony]

Just tested it for you in training mode and pikachu cannot.

does he do it to ps pk fire better? I am confused?

 

[alexthepony]

If he crawls forward he lowers his tail, but his normal crouch and backwards crawl both lift his tail up, making it easy to hit with PK Fire.

does he do it to ps pk fire better? I am confused?
sorry for double post

 

[JosePollo]

does he do it to ps pk fire better? I am confused?
sorry for double post

I don't see how crouching would help with perfect shielding, but against most taller characters Pikachu can crawl under some attacks so it might just be an instinctual thing for him. Crouching doesn't help Pikachu avoid PK Fire if you use it while grounded due to Lucas being rather short, himself.

 

[alexthepony]

I don't see how crouching would help with perfect shielding, but against most taller characters Pikachu can crawl under some attacks so it might just be an instinctual thing for him. Crouching doesn't help Pikachu avoid PK Fire if you use it while grounded due to Lucas being rather short, himself.

dabuz said he crouches a lot with rosa because it forces you to stand up and shield so perfect shielding is easier

 

[JesterJaded]

Quick question to ye tournament goers, should I put in time to practice the Bair lag cancel? It seems like it could be invaluable for safer cross-ups and SHAD, but the timing is incredibly strict.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Quick question to ye tournament goers, should I put in time to practice the Bair lag cancel? It seems like it could be invaluable for safer cross-ups and SHAD, but the timing is incredibly strict.

You can't make cross-ups safer because you can't input another move before landing with any of Lucas's moves and SHADLC is a neat gimmick but it can easily be grab punished even when cancelled if people know what you're doing.
Just cancelling any of your landings with B-air would be extremely useful even though it's hard as nails.

 

[JosePollo]

You can't make cross-ups safer because you can't input another move before landing with any of Lucas's moves and SHADLC is a neat gimmick but it can easily be grab punished even when cancelled if people know what you're doing.
Just cancelling any of your landings with B-air would be extremely useful even though it's hard as nails.

I wish Lucas had a ridiculous early auto-cancel like Ness down air (1-19, I think) so that I could just friggin' land and shield, instead of mis-timing it and landing with an air dodge because Lucas is so damn floaty, even when fast-falling and you can't zair out of an action because all you get is an air dodge.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

I wish Lucas had a ridiculous early auto-cancel like Ness down air (1-19, I think) so that I could just friggin' land and shield, instead of mis-timing it and landing with an air dodge because Lucas is so damn floaty, even when fast-falling and you can't zair out of an action because all you get is an air dodge.

Just the Ness treatment in general would be nice. All his aerials autocancel out of a SH except for Dair and all his aerials A-land before the hitbox comes out. Having B-air to A-land on frame 1-12 would solve a lot of issues Lucas has against fast characters because then you wouldn't always have to go the the ledge to not get punished for landing on stage.
We have a really, REALLY good shorthop with 34f and with Lucas's his aerial mobility being extremely good you can space F-air making it somewhat safe but I just don't get why we didn't get a decent A-landing or AC's.

 

[JosePollo]

Just the Ness treatment in general would be nice. All his aerials autocancel out of a SH except for Dair and all his aerials A-land before the hitbox comes out. Having B-air to A-land on frame 1-12 would solve a lot of issues Lucas has against fast characters because then you wouldn't always have to go the the ledge to not get punished for landing on stage.
We have a really, REALLY good shorthop with 34f and with Lucas's his aerial mobility being extremely good you can space F-air making it somewhat safe but I just don't get why we didn't get a decent A-landing or AC's.

Nair auto-cancel 1-7, 33>, and bair auto-cancel 1-14, 38> would be a dream come true for me. The nair auto-cancel would let us literally mash A to try to get out of combos without getting landing lag, going into frame 2 jab instead the way characters like Sheik, Ness, and Mario (who have faster nairs, with better hitboxes, btw) can.

I still can't get over Sheik's nair, though. It literally auto-cancels at any point where there's not hitbox. Hits 3-30, auto-cancels 1-2, 31>. And frame 11 auto-cancel on fair is stupid, but Sheik's hard to play, right? She's technical?

 

[SeanS]

What kind of priority does PK Fire have, specifically? I cannot find information on this. Is it treated as an item?

 

[MrWhYYZ]

PK Fire is a energy projectile that gets a secondary hitbox if it connects with something.

 

[JosePollo]

What kind of priority does PK Fire have, specifically? I cannot find information on this. Is it treated as an item?

The PK Fire article (3% damage) is a damagable, clankable hurtbox that explodes into two transcendent hitboxes when it contacts a hitbox or hurtbox. The base of the fire does 6% damage, and the back part does 4%. Basically, if you don't absorb, reflect, shield, or otherwise nullify the bolt you WILL get hit by the flames.

The flames happen exactly one frame after the article collides with something, making it a two-hit combo and making the flames literally impossible to shield/dodge if the article is activated unless it's hit with some extreme disjoint (Shulk's fair, Corrin's f-smash, Bayonetta's Wicked Weaves, etc.)

The bolt's property as a projectile with a hurtbox makes it useful for nullifying projectiles like chargeable energy balls and most other projectiles as hitting the bolt is no different from hitting a hurtbox on a fighter's frame.