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Hello everyone. This thread is a discussion for Ness as he participates in Doubles. Here we will discuss various techniques he can use, who he works best with and what his role is in doubles.
The way we'll do it, is the traditional way of using the current Tier List to help discuss which partners are the best for a Ness to team with, and various Ness mains that have done well with their specific partners.
Having a good partner in doubles is essential. Ness is actually very helpful in doubles due to his high killing power, ability to heal himself through his partner, and his ability to set up tons of gimmicks. As we know, most of Ness' doubles teams will be gimmick based, but which ones are the best? Who can Ness team with that will be very effective to him and his partner? This is the thread for those questions. Learn a little about teams here!
The way the system will work for the most part, is out of 5 stars and 5 categories:
Offense will be how well your partner deals damage, rushes, for you. Basically, how aggressive that partner can be. Defense will be how well your partner can camp and save you. Basically, can they stock tank. Heal will be how well can your partner heal, and is it worth it. Basically, will you recovering percentages be significant in the match. Gimmick will be how easy it is to find good setups in the team. Basically, is it worth it for you to set things up, or will you be fine on your own. Overall will be how good is this partner. Basically, should you or should you not consider teaming with them.
I'm gonna try and make this as short and sweet as I can
I play both of these characters (maining MK and fiddling with Ness when I can) so I can relate with both of them in dubs and as characters themselves.
Maybe aside from ZSS, MK is probably Ness' best teammate, and could probably be better than ZSS.
Let's face it, MK is the best in the game, in both singles and arguably in doubles as well.
Offense: MK should be the one doing the fighting here, we all know Ness is solid at offensive but MK takes it up a level here, he can rush down with speed, multi-jumps, quick aerials and grounded moves, he's the best at rushing down and at offense, so sit back and let him do his job while giving him support. - 5 stars on offense
Defense: This is Ness' job. Both characters can do this job really well but it's better to leave this to Ness, problem with this is that Ness can get gimped easily and isn't that heavy. Luckily though MK is great at saving his partner and can break up combos and double teams pretty easily, which is why Ness is better stock tanking and letting MK do the work. 3.5 stars on defense
Heal: Can't do it, 'nuff said. 0 stars lmao
Gimmick: Honestly, I don't know too much of what MK and Ness could pull off team combo wise. But MK can start something pretty easily from a PK Fire. I also had the idea if MK was far out and could pull off an early kill with an off stage SL that had no hope of returning, Ness (if able to get away from his opponent) could PK Thunder him to save him without risking going off stage. This is something that would take a lot of team cooperation though and knowing your teammate really well, along with something that would need to be practiced. You could also MK's Dthrow > Ness Dair > MK's jab lock or Dtilt lock > whatever. 4 stars on gimmick
Overall: I think a solid Ness and MK could cause damage. With Ness' killing throw (super gdly in teams) and MKs fast damage output I think they could be solid together. The two combined can rack damage very quickly and both can kill early. The problem with the team is the weight, both are on the lighter side and then there's the whole "gimping Ness problem", but if the MK can keep a good eye on his partner then Ness shouldn't be getting gimped. 4 stars on Overall
That's all I have for now, I may come back and add more later, or if people wish to expand on this I'd be glad to help ^_^
I typically stock tank in teams because I suck at killing, so I'm aggro until they're at kill % then I let Ness handle killing unless I'm given an opportunity. So basically, it's like I just try to tack on as much % as possible without taking %( obviously ) and then I switch roles, and let Ness lead.
I have to disagree, it seems to me that the rolls switch at points, where MK is the defensive half, and Ness is Offensive, and that part is when they're at kill %. Anything that isn't a gimp for a kill, leave up to Ness. Like say for example one enemy is at high % and the other has a fresh stock, Ness goes after the Higher % person, and MK keeps the other back.
MK can actually play both roles in this team pretty well, and so can Ness, TBH. Why I have to disagree with MK having to break up a double team on Ness in the first place is that the other person will have had gotten by you, which shouldn't happen. Even if it does, if the other two are fighting, you can surprise nado or something on the other person if they somehow get by you.
Fair, PK fire, and Ness' throws are all good set ups for nado, although PK fire can also be a grab on either part, and as we all know, MK starting with a grab is good for the team.
Offensive: I'd say trade off depending on % once again. MK for lower %s and Ness for kills. Honestly, a 5/5 either way.
Defensive: MK can wall and protect Ness. Ness has great support quality, as well as MK. It should be really hard for teams to get in against them entirely, regardless of who is playing this role. 4/5 ( would be five if they both didn't die at **** low % )
Heal: plop shiz garbage. this team would be so much more amazing if MK would heal. =( my report card/5
Gimmick: Pretty much what P4 said. Their gimmicks are kinda a 2v1 flashy thing. Set ups would mainly be MK's dthrow, and probably Fthrow to... Ness aerials. Ness can do... Ness stuff(fair/nair) out of nado as well. Ness' Fthrow, Dthrow, and Fair are good nado setups. They can do some flashy 2v1 stuff, but their 2v2 stuf is all really standard. Also, the setups all basically revolve around Ness Dair to MK jab lock.( which is better than Dtilt in that factor ) so I'd say about a. 4/5
Overall: Good, solid team. Great damage racking, and decent killing, good support, and players can switch off on roles. The fact that both parts can be played by both characters makes this a remarkable team. 3.7/5 ( if only MK would heal =( )
Offense: MK would obviously be the damage-racking machine in the team. I mean, he can chase people around the stage, gimp incredibly easily (even easier with a little help from Ness with his Projectiles) and rack up damage really fast with... well, pretty much everything he can use, lol. Summing up, I think Ness can finish or helping finishing wounded opponents. 6/5lol.
Defense: MK has awesome camping skills and GTFO Moves, and can protect Ness with some of them, such as Dair camping and DSmash. Also, he can use moves like B to stop double teams and combos, like P4 said. The only downside of their defense would be their weight. Too bad. ☆4/5
Heal: What is that supposed to mean? Like, real heal? MK doesn't have one, lol.
Gimmick: MK can use SL more often off stage as Ness can save him with DB (forgot its name) and can set up double teams with stuff like dthrow and B. I don't really know if they can really combo well on 2x2, though. Summing up, they are a potential **** on 2x1 but average on 2x2. 3/5
Overall: Easy kills and damage racking with good support and double teams stuff. 4/5
I'm gonna try and make this as short and sweet as I can
I play both of these characters (maining MK and fiddling with Ness when I can) so I can relate with both of them in dubs and as characters themselves.
Maybe aside from ZSS, MK is probably Ness' best teammate, and could probably be better than ZSS.
Let's face it, MK is the best in the game, in both singles and arguably in doubles as well.
Offense: MK should be the one doing the fighting here, we all know Ness is solid at offensive but MK takes it up a level here, he can rush down with speed, multi-jumps, quick aerials and grounded moves, he's the best at rushing down and at offense, so sit back and let him do his job while giving him support. - 5 stars on offense
Defense: This is Ness' job. Both characters can do this job really well but it's better to leave this to Ness, problem with this is that Ness can get gimped easily and isn't that heavy. Luckily though MK is great at saving his partner and can break up combos and double teams pretty easily, which is why Ness is better stock tanking and letting MK do the work. 3.5 stars on defense
Heal: Can't do it, 'nuff said. 0 stars lmao
Gimmick: Honestly, I don't know too much of what MK and Ness could pull off team combo wise. But MK can start something pretty easily from a PK Fire. I also had the idea if MK was far out and could pull off an early kill with an off stage SL that had no hope of returning, Ness (if able to get away from his opponent) could PK Thunder him to save him without risking going off stage. This is something that would take a lot of team cooperation though and knowing your teammate really well, along with something that would need to be practiced. You could also MK's Dthrow > Ness Dair > MK's jab lock or Dtilt lock > whatever. 4 stars on gimmick
Overall: I think a solid Ness and MK could cause damage. With Ness' killing throw (super gdly in teams) and MKs fast damage output I think they could be solid together. The two combined can rack damage very quickly and both can kill early. The problem with the team is the weight, both are on the lighter side and then there's the whole "gimping Ness problem", but if the MK can keep a good eye on his partner then Ness shouldn't be getting gimped. 4 stars on Overall
That's all I have for now, I may come back and add more later, or if people wish to expand on this I'd be glad to help ^_^
I typically stock tank in teams because I suck at killing, so I'm aggro until they're at kill % then I let Ness handle killing unless I'm given an opportunity. So basically, it's like I just try to tack on as much % as possible without taking %( obviously ) and then I switch roles, and let Ness lead.
I have to disagree, it seems to me that the rolls switch at points, where MK is the defensive half, and Ness is Offensive, and that part is when they're at kill %. Anything that isn't a gimp for a kill, leave up to Ness. Like say for example one enemy is at high % and the other has a fresh stock, Ness goes after the Higher % person, and MK keeps the other back.
MK can actually play both roles in this team pretty well, and so can Ness, TBH. Why I have to disagree with MK having to break up a double team on Ness in the first place is that the other person will have had gotten by you, which shouldn't happen. Even if it does, if the other two are fighting, you can surprise nado or something on the other person if they somehow get by you.
Fair, PK fire, and Ness' throws are all good set ups for nado, although PK fire can also be a grab on either part, and as we all know, MK starting with a grab is good for the team.
Offensive: I'd say trade off depending on % once again. MK for lower %s and Ness for kills. Honestly, a 5/5 either way.
Defensive: MK can wall and protect Ness. Ness has great support quality, as well as MK. It should be really hard for teams to get in against them entirely, regardless of who is playing this role. 4/5 ( would be five if they both didn't die at **** low % )
Heal: plop shiz garbage. this team would be so much more amazing if MK would heal. =( my report card/5
Gimmick: Pretty much what P4 said. Their gimmicks are kinda a 2v1 flashy thing. Set ups would mainly be MK's dthrow, and probably Fthrow to... Ness aerials. Ness can do... Ness stuff(fair/nair) out of nado as well. Ness' Fthrow, Dthrow, and Fair are good nado setups. They can do some flashy 2v1 stuff, but their 2v2 stuf is all really standard. Also, the setups all basically revolve around Ness Dair to MK jab lock.( which is better than Dtilt in that factor ) so I'd say about a. 4/5
Overall: Good, solid team. Great damage racking, and decent killing, good support, and players can switch off on roles. The fact that both parts can be played by both characters makes this a remarkable team. 3.7/5 ( if only MK would heal =( )
Offense: MK would obviously be the damage-racking machine in the team. I mean, he can chase people around the stage, gimp incredibly easily (even easier with a little help from Ness with his Projectiles) and rack up damage really fast with... well, pretty much everything he can use, lol. Summing up, I think Ness can finish or helping finishing wounded opponents. 6/5lol.
Defense: MK has awesome camping skills and GTFO Moves, and can protect Ness with some of them, such as Dair camping and DSmash. Also, he can use moves like B to stop double teams and combos, like P4 said. The only downside of their defense would be their weight. Too bad. ☆4/5
Heal: What is that supposed to mean? Like, real heal? MK doesn't have one, lol.
Gimmick: MK can use SL more often off stage as Ness can save him with DB (forgot its name) and can set up double teams with stuff like dthrow and B. I don't really know if they can really combo well on 2x2, though. Summing up, they are a potential **** on 2x1 but average on 2x2. 3/5
Overall: Easy kills and damage racking with good support and double teams stuff. 4/5
Before I go into MK as a partner, I'll go with ness ideas in general.
Ness is all-around. He can really do anything in doubles if you want.
Specifically, psimag wind.... Just a minor thing.
The wind can setup sure combos for teammates, such as kirby's dthrow, snake's ftilt, snake nades, MK dthrow, and much more.
The wind can help with saving a teammate or destroying some attempt at saving/recovery for others.
If your partner is pressuring, you can jump above and push the opponent back into range of attacks or just magnet momentum cancel the oPponent from them being hit upward. You need some key to let your partner pick up on it though.
In general, HEALING IS ALMOST WORTHLESS!! It only works if you and your partner have the lucky opportunity to knock both offstage (not to death, offstage), or if you are 2 v 1. If your partner is samus, you have more of a chance, because samus pressures well and can randomly slip in charge shots well. DDD is a great partner, because you can have him throw waddles and gordo and whatever until he gets the one that fires lasers, then just pressure aerialy while you get free healing. PikA is great too, because thunder doesn't hit ness with the contact on pika if you do everything right. Also, jolt spam is effective. Most other characters aren't worth wasting time (ZSS doesn't waste time. Dsmash is great anywhere)
Ness' bair is by far the best thing ever. It pokes into places very well and gets 13~15 extra percent on a combo that your teammate is doing. Ness is super safe in FH aerial maneuvering.
You can Nair out of almost everything, let your partner take over shortly, then poke in at a distance with bair or pkfire or Pkt. Seriously. Pkt assistance in combos is awesome... I never miss!
Also, if you are great at recovery (like myself or shaky or smash64 or barto or some notable others), you can keep your opponents occupied trying to gimp you while your partner just wrecks him from behind, allowing safe recovery or super damage on an opponent.
In general, HEALING IS ALMOST WORTHLESS!! It only works if you and your partner have the lucky opportunity to knock both offstage (not to death, offstage), or if you are 2 v 1. If your partner is samus, you have more of a chance, because samus pressures well and can randomly slip in charge shots well. DDD is a great partner, because you can have him throw waddles and gordo and whatever until he gets the one that fires lasers, then just pressure aerialy while you get free healing. PikA is great too, because thunder doesn't hit ness with the contact on pika if you do everything right. Also, jolt spam is effective. Most other characters aren't worth wasting time (ZSS doesn't waste time. Dsmash is great anywhere)
It seems odd that you would say healing is almost useless and then state a bunch of partners that work well for Ness lol. Healing is arguably Ness' most prominent asset as a dubs partner, allowing him to live long and stock tank, I'm not sure if I could call it useless.
I think part of being a good teammate for Ness is finding those small moments to sneak in a healing opportunity. I've definitely seen a lot of instances where the partner heals Ness and both opponents are onstage. I agree it's harder to pull off but it's essential for putting Magnet to full use, you can't just wait around for both enemies to be knocked away simultaneously.
That said I can't say much for this team (because I've never actually tried it out before...). I mean yeah, MK is the best character in the game, but I feel like Ness really shines in doubles when his partner can heal him. I would call it a fairly safe team with MK, but not exactly ideal. I can't see much synergy between the two characters' movesets. I guess if MK is in trouble of not making it back on stage, PKT is a great tool for helping him out from a distance. But it's not like that's specific to MK, I mean Ness can do that for any teammate, plus MK excels at recovering safely. MK would probably do a good job at covering Ness while airborne. Ness has a rather large blindspot beneath him because of dair's slow startup, so that could be something for MK to keep in mind. Figure out which moves to pressure with so Ness isn't completely open there.
But again, I've never played this team out that I can recall, so make of that what you will. Talking about doubles is hard since you have so many different factors that don't appear in singles. I mean I feel like a lot of this also depends on your 2 opponents, but it'd take forever to have like a doubles mu chart. I sort of doubt it would be very reliable anyhow lol.
In 2vs1 situations it's very easy for MK to fthrow the opponent in to the PKT2 or PK Flash. I've done that while the other opponent was recovering, really easy. MK just needs to learn the timing.
It seems odd that you would say healing is almost useless and then state a bunch of partners that work well for Ness lol. Healing is arguably Ness' most prominent asset as a dubs partner, allowing him to live long and stock tank, I'm not sure if I could call it useless.
I think part of being a good teammate for Ness is finding those small moments to sneak in a healing opportunity. I've definitely seen a lot of instances where the partner heals Ness and both opponents are onstage. I agree it's harder to pull off but it's essential for putting Magnet to full use, you can't just wait around for both enemies to be knocked away simultaneously.
That said I can't say much for this team (because I've never actually tried it out before...). I mean yeah, MK is the best character in the game, but I feel like Ness really shines in doubles when his partner can heal him. I would call it a fairly safe team with MK, but not exactly ideal. I can't see much synergy between the two characters' movesets. I guess if MK is in trouble of not making it back on stage, PKT is a great tool for helping him out from a distance. But it's not like that's specific to MK, I mean Ness can do that for any teammate, plus MK excels at recovering safely. MK would probably do a good job at covering Ness while airborne. Ness has a rather large blindspot beneath him because of dair's slow startup, so that could be something for MK to keep in mind. Figure out which moves to pressure with so Ness isn't completely open there.
But again, I've never played this team out that I can recall, so make of that what you will. Talking about doubles is hard since you have so many different factors that don't appear in singles. I mean I feel like a lot of this also depends on your 2 opponents, but it'd take forever to have like a doubles mu chart. I sort of doubt it would be very reliable anyhow lol.
I just gave a list of probable methods of healing, AND some characters which give the better stuffs of healing.
Healing Partners Tier List:
TOP:
ZSS
Pika
Samus/Lucas
Lucario
High:
Wolf
ICs
DDD
Ness
Mid:
ROB
Fox
Pit
Zelda
Mario
Low:
Bowser/Charizard
Falco
Luigi
Kirby (with Ness' Power)
Bottom:
Kirby (normal)
Yoshi (when will he ever use downB for that?)
Everyone without a healing ability
There may be some inbetween, but oh well...
ZSS is obvious; dsmash is powerful, hits people, AND can heal you at the same time. It's all in one. Also, it's quick as ****! If you really want, you can even use her neutral B
Pika's game involves many jolts already. Just coordinate well and you win! The Thunder is much more viable too, seeing as ness is NOT hit by the strike on pika and instead absorbs it from there.
Samus's Charge Shot is great. If you EVER get a free spot, it's like QUICK! SHOOT! and you heal 20-30 percent. Samus' charge will always be charged. Also, it pressures everyone normally very well, so if you dual pressure from each side with campy-ness, then it just makes all parts of using charge shot more viable, and ness can just jump back toward a ledge and heal>ledgegrab. It's PERFECT! If you have a good Samus main nearby, teaming with them may help TONS for doubles tourneys.
Lucas... Ah. Despite how bad a team this is, he heals us well. PKT does good damage, and because it travels more slowly it's easier to include the tail in the absorption. PKfire is easy to tell where, and if you do things right, ness can absorb the flame wall from hitting an opponent for more recovery. The hard thing is coordinating the PKfire and PSImag.
Lucario: SideB + Aura Sphere. The sphere is like Samus' but it's a bit slower, so that it's easier to pick up and heal from. The SideB is for random times where you are close together and you can. The problem that Lucario has as opposed to Samus is that he can't camp extremely well like Samus. Firing off random Aura Spheres is more difficult than Charge Shots... and Aura Sphere strength is based on percent, which is bad.
Wolf's Laser is epic. Despite that being his only attack to absorb, it travels FAR, it causes okay knockback, and overall just pressures opponents well, allowing for ness to poke in and heal at random times. He'll be lower in a couple days.
ICs DownB brings lots of percent. If your partner can desync well, go for it. NOBODY plays ICs when on doubles though.
DDD's Waddle (Doo's?) can be randomly thrown out. Plan together so that ness jumps in in time to get the lasers from the thing and BOOM! 40-ish Health. It's a bit luck based, but pressure your opponent well with both characters then maneuver to get potential of healing.
Ness has PKT, PKfire, and PKflash.. the bad thing is that all of those are either slow or minimal absorption for the effort. Also, bad team to go with.
ROB is only good if you can coordinate the B shot well... It's difficult to do, but practice will make it more viable.
Fox's Lasers are good. You can spam them and mess around with things to camp superbly with both characters. Fox's Lasers make using aerials out of the PSImag much easier, so you can just have your partner spam and Jump OoMag > Nair/Bair/Fair while the fox regroups. This involves a TON of effort for the little bit of recovery, but if you want it's worth a shot.
Pit's Arrows are cool. Learn loop timings so you can pick up on the recovery of them it makes it so your partner can loop it around while still attacking and potentially heal you... the problem is that not many pit mains are good... or can do the insanity of looping perfectly while hitting opponents.
Zelda's SideB is insane... xD also, the big range brings pressure to all who try to interrupt it. This is underrated, but Zelda's SideB is slow and impractical to spam randomly.
Mario's Fireballs are easy to pick up on. Mario spams these a lot to approach, and you can coordinate to poke in a heal.
Bowser/Charizard are too hard to find a spot to let out the fire breath.
Falco's lasers are slow enough to make the percent of healing unworth the effort of healing.
Luigi's Fireballs are straight-line... that makes getting into the path of the slow-moving orb more difficult.
Ness' PKflash can go well with Kirby... he has the cutter as backup too.
Without it though, CUTTER WON'T BE USED TO HEAL!
Yoshi will never use DownB to help heal..... EVER.
MK
(SEE EDIT)
Okay, First thing wrong: NO HEALING!!! AT ALL!!! Bad idea for the most part. Nothing to fall back on in case of emergency.
Second, both characters die fairly quick in relation to some of the cast. MK has momentum cancel, Ness is of mid weight. Having staggering weights is helpful for most teams so that one person is preserved over the majority of the match.
MK's Nado is weakened by PKfire Pillar and Fair. Not as much free reign.
Throws don't coordinate well. Ness' Uthrow can lead to MK using upb, but it's risky; MK dthrow can lead to PSImag momentum cancel madness, but MK doesn't have great jab-lock abilities; MK uthrow can potentially lead to some madness using PKT to pop kills off the top, like the OMNI***, but I don't know for sure... also, putting PKT that high is time-consuming.
Now for +
MK has potential to save ness in the case that his recovery gets rocked.
Kill potential for both is pretty high.
Both can combo by themselves pretty well...
But really, compared to Ness + kirby, MK isn't much worth having as a partner for ness. If anything, go with Snake if you wanna keep the top tier, b/c he can pressure well and you both kill VERY high, tied in with throws being nice and other things having more potential. Kirby is better for a partner of ness though, because of the copy and the better throw abilities and lower-percent comboage that can be assisted by ness.
I have really much experience teaming with Snake. I think he is one of the best non-healing teammates for Ness. I post more later. Going to team with Snake in a tourney next weekend. I will post my feelings afterwards.
I'll agree with that to an extent...
The throws of kirby are greatly assisted by ness, and kirby helps to put people in kill-able stuffs for ness. The problem with them is that there is generally no range to their moves.
