Official SWF Tier List v8

[~ Gheb ~]

At least it wasn't somebody I dislike -.-

 

[Sunnysunny]

inb4"justlikeyou,Gheb"

I hate when that argument is used.
Being hypocritical doesn't make anything less true. It's more like speaking from experience~

Yeah, you can't just look at the numeric placing in the results. You also have to look at who the player beat and what characters the opponent used.

.

Wooow.
Goodness, did you just make a serious post in this thread~?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I hate when that argument is used.
Being hypocritical doesn't make anything less true. It's more like speaking from experience~

The whole point is that I'm not hypocritical about it at all but there's a handful of ignorant people who will say I am regardless.

 

[Vashimus]

Why can't everyone get along?

Spoiler

 

[Jabejazz]

Wooow.
Goodness, did you just make a serious post in this thread~?

It's subtle though.

 

[NickRiddle]

At least it wasn't somebody I dislike -.-

You don't dislike me?
I can make people not dislike me?
Holy ****, I'm impressed with myself. I thought I made everybody hate me~

 

[Dark.Pch]

I dunno how far away you plan on staying from Snake, but his Dash Attack's first hitbox is on frame 5. I'm not sure how DACUS affects how long a hitbox takes to come out, but I believe Snake can hit with the DA and then go into the DACUS. It's pretty damn fast and it's range is solid, so I'd be surprised if you could reliably react to it at a range where you were actively pressuring him. Reading and covering the option is a different story, but reaction seems unreasonable.
Just wanted to address that since that really stuck out to me. I can't comment on anything else of the above.

Ok, I would usually never been in a range where I can not react to it with jab. if anything I usually ground float Nair/Bair if I see it. or sense snake will do it at a certain time. Cause I usually stand at a distance where snake will think I will go in for an attack. But I just don't do anything. If he DACUS/dash attack I react to it with a jab grounded nair/bair or grab. When I do this, Snake will not be thinking he can just do this for free. Which then gives me a better time to get close to him and not have to worry about that move so much at this distance. I also have the option to dair him out of it if I float at the right height.

My best bet if I am to close is to space jab cancels if I feel he will tilt/dash attack to cancel them. Then get some breathing room. I have to respect snake here. At this range of his tilts I can't do much. If I try to dish out an attack, I am gonna get punished. I have pretty good reaction time when I am awake. or if not reflexes if that is a better term in this case. Since I am in a situation or position against snake where he think or I make him think he can just do things. They he does the most common things to try and get a hit.

Pretty much everyone can safely hit Snake's shield without blowing up the grenade. With ROB I have Bair, Fair, Nair, Ftilt + any projectile. Sonic can just use any method of spindash, do 20 damage to his shield in under a second, and escape before shieldstun is over. Kill power is very relevant here because the correct answer is for Snake to hit Sonic or Peach, because sitting in his shield will only hurt him. Even in a situation where a Snake would just sit in his shield, Sonic gets in and out of uptilt range faster.

The range you are talking about where Peach can punish DACUS is the range where Sonic can kill Snake for using DACUS. He can punish DACUS on shield regardless and obviously both characters can clash/beat it head on, but thats nothing special.

@ Delta, I'm pretty sure he is talking about mid range. I imagine at super close range, it might be tough for many characters to punish with double hitboxes and alooooooooot of distance retreating behind your shield.

Here is the difference between me and you. You say you can set of the nade and then get away from him before the blast. You also say you can get in and out of his uptilt range faster. I don't have to "GET OUT" I can set of nade and be right near him for pressure and eating his shield. Forcing snake to evade or push buttons out of shield just hoping for the best to get me off him. My range of jab does not allow him to tilt. Its too slow. His tilt is 7 frames I believe. Shield drop 7 so it would be a total of 14 frames that move will come out. That move is not gonna touch me before I Jab him. So once I get in on his shield, I don't have to worry about tilts. Nor do I have to "GET OUT"

Sonic rolls past snake getting close to him just to dip again setting off a nade and avoid hit tilts Snake has breathing room now. I set off a nade, stay near him and don't have to worry about tilts or grabs. He has no room to breath and my pressure will likely open him up for damage. Peach does it better.

Also how is sonic killing snake in DACUS range?

I think Espy has a positive record against Razer or something close to it? Either way even if its been awhile, definitely an indication that Sonic has more going for him than Peach in the MU.

Good post, this is almost my identical summary to peach. I know you didnt exactly say this but my only disagreement is that Sonic can punish pretty heavy, or rather is at least given the ability to do so in capable hands. His strings at low percent may not be as simple as peach, but a big strength of mobile characters is maintaining pressure when opponents find themselves in disadvantaged positions. Sonic is at least capable of doing this in the hands of a smart player whereas less mobile characters or opponents with poor frame data have to settle for knocking their opponent away and allowing them to reset the situation/their defenses. Peach is a bit better as far as speedy frames go (though sonic isnt bad here either), but in terms of mobility Id definitely give sonic an advantage on pressure over peach which is especially important at high percent.

Sonic can not keep someone on lock when blocking of frame trap them with pressure. How is Sonic doing this? How is sonic keeping control when he has someone in this so called dis advantage position? His speed means nothing for pressure. If by pressure you mean people not being able to sonic, then ok? If that was the case he be like high tier. Speed is not everything. What good is all that speed if you can't lock and pressure one well. Sonic is not a scary character when he is close to someone.

If a position resets, I have many ways to approach someone and be safe. Sonic does not. And If he does, Please tell me. I am more then free to be correct.

Peach also have many options to punish someone on block. Even small characters, which as usually harder for alot to punish on block.

And yes Peach can be ok at zoning people out, that doesnt translate to her being good zoning overall. And even then her defenses are frequently compromised by characters with a sword or decent range, and she certainly cant lean on her mobility to make up ground. I do think her camp game is maybe a bit underrated though although still not too outstanding, but she definitely seems to have issues approaching and setting things up.

Let me clear something here. And something I actually agree with on you here. If someone stands in her range of fair, Peach has no option out of shield. She can't punish anything. Thats her grounded bind spot. A few characters have this issue. I seriously can't try out attacks. Thats why characters like Marth are a problem. Nothing she does out of shield is fast and has range. Fast thing she in the air is nair. 3 frames. But short range. Fasting thing grounded is Jab. 2 frames. Which funny enough, has more range then her nair.

At this position Peach players should not be trying to attack unless they are 90% sure (im serious here) they know what the enemy will do next and can execute the right attack to counter theirs. Peach lost all her freedom to attack here. He has to play slow and defensive to ether get away from the opponent or get close for counter attacks OoS.

She has a good method to get close to someone when being out ranged. Wave dashing out of shield. Here is how it works if curious;

Peach is the only character in this game that can cancel her jump land and do w/e she wants outside of Yoshi. I jump out of shield, Float then land to shield while moving forward. This helps block attacks and get close to my opponent when cornered. Peach has a high chance of landing PS from this. Which leads to better counter attacks such as her nair, dash attack and ftilt. Dtilt as well to punish a landing after an attack.

But yea, thats an option she has. A good one. And the only thing she can really do. Anything else is too risky and not safe. Peach players just challenge the situation and take damage they can be avoiding. She seriously can not do that. Peach excel up close. She is bad at mid range, and can not push any buttons. Every character in this game can punish her for free is she tries. Go watch any video of a peach player playing and watch what happens when she tries to test any character in her blind spot.Watch what happens.

Well sticking out a fast, good jab like Peach's could work at mid range to stop him, but after the clash animation ends he is no longer in jab range, while you are in tilt range.

The distance covered is why I think Sonic punishes it better. In addition to OoSing it, you can just shield drop and chase him down. Only reaction you need is your frame 1 shield.

I have enough time to evade do w/e to be safe if he tries to throw out a tilt. At this point it is not about trying to can control, snake is in my blind spot. As long as I make my self safe in this situation, thats all that matters. I avoided damage.

 

[Ishiey]

Why would you make everyone hate you? @_@

 

[Dekillsage]

I hate him.

 

[Espy Rose]

I don't hate Nick Riddle. In fact, I find his personality to be quite charming.

 

[NickRiddle]

Why would you make everyone hate you? @_@

Just by being blunt and stuff... I dunno...

I don't hate Nick Riddle. In fact, I find his personality to be quite charming.

D'aww~ I like how AJ's the only pony emote I could find.

I hate him.

ALL ACCORDING TO PLAN!

 

[Shaya]

i think it's because he's from florida.
He pretends its all me me me .

But it's just Florida when you don't come from Tampa.

 

[NickRiddle]

i think it's because he's from florida.
He pretends its all me me me .

But it's just Florida when you don't come from Tampa.

It's so far away, you don't even understand.

 

[Shaya]

Tampa is like the Galapagos islands. Somehow maintained a unique ecosystem for BEING AMAZING without being sullied and destroyed by the mainland cronies.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I somehow feel Umbreon and Shaya are connected in some way.

 

[FourStar]

You're right, let's keep talking about Pikachu.

LOL NO! i'm tired of trying to be the only one seeing pikachu as a good character....

 

[Espy Rose]

No see, you're arguing that he's a great character.
He's not.

He's just good.

 

[Tesh]

Ok, I would usually never been in a range where I can not react to it with jab. if anything I usually ground float Nair/Bair if I see it. or sense snake will do it at a certain time. Cause I usually stand at a distance where snake will think I will go in for an attack. But I just don't do anything. If he DACUS/dash attack I react to it with a jab grounded nair/bair or grab. When I do this, Snake will not be thinking he can just do this for free. Which then gives me a better time to get close to him and not have to worry about that move so much at this distance. I also have the option to dair him out of it if I float at the right height.

My best bet if I am to close is to space jab cancels if I feel he will tilt/dash attack to cancel them. Then get some breathing room. I have to respect snake here. At this range of his tilts I can't do much. If I try to dish out an attack, I am gonna get punished. I have pretty good reaction time when I am awake. or if not reflexes if that is a better term in this case. Since I am in a situation or position against snake where he think or I make him think he can just do things. They he does the most common things to try and get a hit.



Here is the difference between me and you. You say you can set of the nade and then get away from him before the blast. You also say you can get in and out of his uptilt range faster. I don't have to "GET OUT" I can set of nade and be right near him for pressure and eating his shield. Forcing snake to evade or push buttons out of shield just hoping for the best to get me off him. My range of jab does not allow him to tilt. Its too slow. His tilt is 7 frames I believe. Shield drop 7 so it would be a total of 14 frames that move will come out. That move is not gonna touch me before I Jab him. So once I get in on his shield, I don't have to worry about tilts. Nor do I have to "GET OUT"

Sonic rolls past snake getting close to him just to dip again setting off a nade and avoid hit tilts Snake has breathing room now. I set off a nade, stay near him and don't have to worry about tilts or grabs. He has no room to breath and my pressure will likely open him up for damage. Peach does it better.

Also how is sonic killing snake in DACUS range?





I have enough time to evade do w/e to be safe if he tries to throw out a tilt. At this point it is not about trying to can control, snake is in my blind spot. As long as I make my self safe in this situation, thats all that matters. I avoided damage.

Peach has a really nice fair, not disgustingly slow considering the benefits of auto cancelling it. However, you act like jabbing Snake is the end of the story. Jab isn't safe on shield, so if he holds shield he can still punish you. Getting out is alot better than getting in just to play a dangerous game. This is Brawl, how much are you going to get from that jab game compared to how much you could lose from it? Sonic can similarly ASC shield cancel and play the same game with his grab.

I didn't say he could set of the grenade without being harmed. Most characters can't do that. You rarely see even MK spaced well enough for that to happen. I'd like to see a video of Peach doing that because I doubt she has the range.

I said Sonic can hit his shield without hitting the grenade

Anywhere Peach has space to shield drop, turn around and grab Snake, Sonic has space to shield drop and Fsmash him. This would be severely bad DACUSing, but all of your theorycraft assumes your opponent is a moron so...

For the record Cass, Razer and I have only played in tournament three times ever (I think). I've got one win on him, he has two on me.

I actually thought you and Illmatic had never beaten Trela/Gnes/Razer.

Welp I'm pretty sure no Peach has ever beaten a Snake on Razer's level so GG Dark Peach. Since I brought up Lucario, I'd also like to note that Sonic beat one of the top 3 Lucarios in the country and Peach never really comes close.

 

[FourStar]

No see, you're arguing that he's a great character.
He's not.

He's just good.

well didn't i just say that.....

 

[pidgezero_one]

everyone is gonna defend their favorite character no matter what

OBJECTION!

jigglypuff is awful

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

LOL NO! i'm tired of trying to be the only one seeing pikachu as a good character....

Alright. You need a change of pace. Join me and we shall try to get pikachu viewed as an awful **** tier character that Zelda would be proud of.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach has a really nice fair, not disgustingly slow considering the benefits of auto cancelling it. However, you act like jabbing Snake is the end of the story. Jab isn't safe on shield, so if he holds shield he can still punish you. Getting out is alot better than getting in just to play a dangerous game. This is Brawl, how much are you going to get from that jab game compared to how much you could lose from it? Sonic can similarly ASC shield cancel and play the same game with his grab.

You can not punish space jab cancel on block when out of reach of your grab. I can also delay jabs to throw off your timing. You expect this double jab stuff? That is not safe pressure. You hear thinking of double jab. Double jab is not counted for solid pressure. The only time I would double jab someone if I know they are gonna push buttons and going for dumb lock and just wanna get some space (for whatever reason that might be. Like just to get them off stage if near the ledge.) This is why there is jab mix ups. Let me paint a picture for you.

Jab>grab:
I did this cause I see or assume the player knows I would double Jab, then try something out of shield. So I jab them once, they will stay on block, I go for a grab.

Jab cancel>Jab
I did this to see if my opponent will try to grab me or attack out of shield. This is the safest type of pressure Peach should always start a match with to see just how your opponent trys to deal with you on shield. From here the peach player can then go for pressure mix ups to punish your attempts to break this pressure game. You can not punished this. This helps you condition an opponent to stop pushing buttons and just block/evade. if one keeps trying to grab me I can jab once, then jump to fair or dair, punishing wiff grabs/attacks out of shield. if you are not Marth or MK, you are not punishing jab cancels.

Jab>Dair/Fair
This mixup is used when one just wants to roll behind me and try to get a free punish after a jab/fair. They will roll right into my dair This is best with side steppers. You can not sidestep vs Peach. That is not even an option. But some people just feel ether brave or just plan stupid and do it anyway as the answer to everything I do. I can also eat up more shield if they stay on block and reset the pressure when I jab to a fair or dair. Leading to easier shield pokes. Shield is small. Now the opponent has to evade. Your option to evade are worst in the corner. And my educated guess become nearly guaranteed.

Now when I got the enemy on block, I mix and match all that I said above to give my opponent a hard time and crack their defense.

* fun fact, if I do this kind of pressure with a floating bair, I can eat your shield more than usual do to me activating the second hit box of her bair. And you can not punish this. You try and I can turn around and jab you for your grab attempts. I'm safe. Peach double nair hit box does the same on shield. it is not safe on block. But if i space it well enough, I can frame trap them and push grabs/attacks.

I didn't say he could set of the grenade without being harmed. Most characters can't do that. You rarely see even MK spaced well enough for that to happen. I'd like to see a video of Peach doing that because I doubt she has the range.

I said Sonic can hit his shield without hitting the grenade

Then I win on this subject. I stated this on the peach boards years ago. All I need is a snake to give me 5 mins of his time and I will do it. It's a height Peach has to float at where she hits the nade, but the explosion does not reach her hurtbox. Think of it as spacing for a marth tipper. I have done this before. I fail at doing this alot when I try cause I am not use to the height you have to be at. I think I am gonna practice this now hardcore.

Anywhere Peach has space to shield drop, turn around and grab Snake, Sonic has space to shield drop and Fsmash him. This would be severely bad DACUSing, but all of your theorycraft assumes your opponent is a moron so...

Really, snakes going into sonics Fsmash like this......really? Idk why this made me laugh.

Also thanks for calling people like Ally a moron. Who I ran into more than once in tournament, played and had close games with each time. He never destroyed me. he is just a better player who plays a better character and has the advantage in the match up. I did the best I could at my current skill level at the time.

You actually think I pull **** out of my ass and post it to seem cool? I'm not like the rest of the lazy people in the community. If I say something its cause I have done it at high levels of play many times. I'm not gonna say something I have not done nor use too. And I ALWAYS question myself. And not when I do things wrong or things fail. When I do correctly as well.Topic of Peach vs wolf comes up? I will not say anything on that cause I am not use to fighting wolf. Even if people troll in the debate. I can't say anything. Same goes for a few others. So do me a favor and quit putting me in this garbage category.



I actually thought you and Illmatic had never beaten Trela/Gnes/Razer.

Welp I'm pretty sure no Peach has ever beaten a Snake on Razer's level so GG Dark Peach. Since I brought up Lucario, I'd also like to note that Sonic beat one of the top 3 Lucarios in the country and Peach never really comes close.

You think match up is all it takes? You think Player skill does not play a role at all. If so, that one of the most garbage things I have ever heard from this community in my 7 years of being here. No Peach is on the same player level as these snakes. DLA and Verm have mopped the floor with some good players as freaking ganon. Why don't I hear how ganon has good match ups and etc vs them? Because The player holding the controller is what matters. The character solo is not what matters. Those players are hella smart, and they use their heads with a character as bad as ganon to get at people. MK is a bad match up for me, yet I am here beating average level MK as Peach. By this stupid logic, I should have lost. yet I won. That's because as a Player I am the smarter one. And can pull off a win at a heavy disadvantage. Characters don't mean everything. First comes the character. Learn your match up. Then You have to worry about the player behind the character. You really think just knowing a match up and being a half ass player is gonna get you to the top?

Also your lil lucario comment. Back when junebug was on his ****, Praxis beat his lucario in pools at apex 2010, forcing him to run to MK to beat him. Seriously, next time ask before you talk. You just make this too easy for me.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I actually would also like to know how peach can set off grenades without getting hit by them. Drk peach you stated you had to float at the right height, but you never what move is used to hit the grenade. I personally am doubting peach even has a move with enough disjoint to do this. The only move I know of that can even do that is ddd's ftilt which is kinda exceptionally long range and disjointed. Peach has no move with these kinds of properties. I am sure other moves can do this but there are none of peach's that can to my knowledge.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm pretty sure I said her Dair long with her pressure talk before heading off to work.

But yes, her Dair at the right height can set off nades. I will get on wifi and do this with someone and then make a video of this. This should have been done years ago to be honest. Better late then never.

 

[NAKAT]

G&W is worse than Wolf/Fox vs most of top-tier. Also, afaik, the character hasn't had any metagame development for well over a year since, well, nobody plays him any more lol. Wolf > Fox is probably because of the MU chart supporting the notion that Fox gets hard-countered by ICs and the recent increase in ICs, but after talking with Nakat I think it's a very close call between the two. If Fox is better it's solely due to his MK MU imo.
TL is bad, idk. Then again, so are D3 and Lucario, kinda, maybe. TL should be below Wolf/Fox though, because lolMK.
ROB doesn't really show up anywhere outside of the House of 3000, so people still think he's meh. That's probably it.

Don't forget the discussion of the character results. Even with the increase, there still aren't that many as many Ice Climbers players.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Jab -> shield is safe relatively speaking with spacing. But, if peach tries anything other than 2nd jab or shield, the move is too slow. Shield drop -> dash attack or ftilt will catch peach (from snake). Its possible. And if someone plays the match-up enough and practices it will accomplish it. There is like 1/3 of a second in ending lag and hitlag to notice that "oh, my shield just got jab1 by peach".

However, typically unlikely to happen due to people like being shield happy.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Jab -> shield is safe relatively speaking with spacing. But, if peach tries anything other than 2nd jab or shield, the move is too slow. Shield drop -> dash attack or ftilt will catch peach (from snake). Its possible. And if someone plays the match-up enough and practices it will accomplish it. There is like 1/3 of a second in ending lag and hitlag to notice that "oh, my shield just got jab1 by peach".

However, typically unlikely to happen due to people like being shield happy.

This is where there is educated guesses. 50/50's etc of fighting game fundemantals. I had a snake do dacus out of shield a few times when I went from jab to dair. So after I noticed this and caught on, I decided to switch up the pressure. I would jab or jab cancel the moment he would think i would dair, and hit him before he could dacus. What people need to understand is that you can't play everyone the same way. The character may be the same and you go by the laws of said match up. But the player behind the character is also very important. I don't pressure every snake player the same way. I pressure based on how they play and think. Adapting to how a player works said character is an important thing. I learned this years ago the hard way.

 

[Tesh]

When __X__ beat Lee Martin, even MK couldn't save him, thus proving Sonic is more viable eh buddy? How good is Peach when every story ends with "but he went MK and I couldn't beat him".

Your Jab is -16/19 on block. Anyone can definitely shield drop and hit you if you try to cancel it. Snake can shield drop and start his Jab and now its his game.

It would take you 5 minutes to get this magical spacing to safely blow up a grenade? How well does it work in a real match with an opponent that will be inching back and forth to throw off your spacing.

Sonics side B is invincible is lagless on hit so that and a magically perfectly spaced Uair will do the same, but I'm being realistic and you aren't. If any of this stuff you are saying has any substance, you would be able to SHOW ME thats its possible to do in a real match. Show me that its worth it for Peach to play a jab game with Snake. Show me that you can safely blow up grenades vs a real Snake without giving up your other options.

You are only as good as your tools allow you to be. Just as your keyboard makes it easier to get those essays typed up, Sonic makes it easier to win in this matchup. All of these "what if" situations you put peach into only matter as far as what you can get out of them and what snake gets out of them and your odds ARE NOT GOOD.

Dark Peach I really wanna believe you, but all of this seems to be complete nonsense in practice.

 

[Dark.Pch]

WARNING, LONG POST HEADING THIS WAY​

IGNORE POST IF YOU DON'T WANNA READ!!!!!​

Tesh-

Ok the jab cancel thing, there is a few characters who jabs are not fast enough to punish me. If I am out of range for a grab and one tries to jab me out of shield (fastest thing most characters can do from shield drop) I have time to block frame. Now lets do some math here. My jab is -9 from a shield drop. shield drop is 7 frames. That mean my opponent has to do a move in 2 frames to hit me. Snakes Jab is not 2 frames. I'm able to block. And if snake goes for this, this would be one of the few times where I would have to double Jab. or delay a jab to stop out of shield options. This is where I don't jab cancel anymore. As I said before, this is all based on how my opponent tries to deal with my pressure.

You nor ANYONE here has to believe what I say. Most never do anyway. My job is to state my peace on my character. You choose wether to believe me or not. W/e you choose does not matter to me. I did my job.

And for your other example.....

I lost to a Zelda in tournament. A match up Peach ***** in. I also had a thing of never really beating NinjaLinks Zelda as peach. And I would struggle with any Zelda with half a brain. Cause of that, people gonna think the match up is even of in Zelda's Favor? Even Zelda players aren't that stupid. Player skill is important. Not just knowing a match up and them playing EVERYONE with said character the same flow chart way. People throw these character loses when it only makes them look good in an argument. They will not use it with everything else. like you doing here. Peach and DK did better then pit at one point with solid results. People did not give a damm about that and pit got that boost on the list due to hype and what mattered to them. it's what matters to the people in this stupid community. not what is legit. read espy's stupid comment when blue asked him what the tier list is based on. It's based on pure BS just like its been for the last 5 years.

I played rain at apex 2012. I could not get him in bracket or pools so I had to play him outside of that. I was determined to beat him after a close game with his MK in 2010. We played and I ended up beating him. Yet you don't see me spitting out this "beating ashdohdophqhdqh so that means this character is more varible" This logic is BS. I can name some characters that has done better things then those above them. Yet people ignore that cause of BS image people just refuse to let go. Just cause they don't matter to THEM. Thus making this logic BS.

Why I beat such a great player as rain with freaking MK and I hear Peach is garbage and cant do anything. Why is the community struggling with such a garbage character. I have no damm airdodge. I should not be touching the floor. I can't kill, I should not be having a stock lead. You are in my blind spot, why am I hitting you off me? You are camping me hard? why am I in as turning the tables around not giving you much freedom to camp me now. Im free off stage? why did I just make it back with lil to no effort? Why are top players like Rain, ally, DEHF struggle in a match up against a garbage character that by the communitys words, they freaking own in? I can't zone well? Why you having just a hard time touching me?

I'll tell you why cause people don't freaking think, at all. Simple. If Peach is this garbage as character that you people love to make out, then you all should quit for struggling. Nicole bopped the mid west with a garbage character getting second place. Region needs to quit this game. Kyle making AZ look free as hell doing well with a garbage character. Illmatic does well in his region. His region is considered good. Yet he mops most of the players there with a garbage character.

I broke this character down so the stuff that Peach is winning on should not happen so often. This community mostly got the massive Peach break down from me for YEARS! And yet people struggle. Losing and having a hard time against the stuff I told you to look out for. None should be struggling. People don't listen, people just wanna do stuff, get the match up over with and then move on. Lazy and non thinkers.

2013. After 5 years, 5 long boring years of this nonsense, people still try to grab me after I fair a shield. YOU CAN NOT FREAKING GRAB ME INBETWEEN FAIRS AND JAB. NOR ATTACK OUT OF SHIELD. IT'S A WORST OPTION. STOP FREAKING TRYING! A year later people will still be on this. You just hope for things to work. No matter how many times you get punish for this, you will still try to grab me, just hoping for that one random moment that I mess up and you get a grab. Freaking hard headed. If you let a bad character such as Peach get in on you with a 16 frame move (17 max range) and block? You lost your freedom to do what the heck you please. Stop trying to grab after fair. Stop trying to attack me out of shield. You are gonna get slapped.

"Peach sucks, just camp her she has no air dodge, she can't kill, so slow, the other many good things about her means nothing. nanananananananananana" Yet you guys struggle against such a trash character? When it comes to smash, your freaking brain dead then. The only defense on your part is that Peach is not as bad as people make her out to be. She is not high tier material. Yet she is not this trash people just tend to wanna dish out. Peach is ether a good character that can do some damage or people in this community are bad brain dead players that rely on gimmicks and hopes it works against someone with at least half a brain.


Man...........I been dieng to say this for a while. This is fun.

 

[Spelt]

I somehow feel Umbreon and Shaya are connected in some way.

 

[Tesh]

Actually your jab is -16 in block, they have 9 frames AFTER they shield drop meaning Snake can hit you with any of hit tilts. If you jab again, add another wasted frame before your hitbox comes out to proect you. So Snake has 17 frames to hit you between cancels. You aren't safe, its just a regular jab mixup and you can definitely get killed or take 20 damage when he guesses right.

Those people Nicole beat weren't even that good btw. I watched that tournament and the Snake she beat was really not very good at the matchup. Thats still probably the best Snake that ever lost to a Peach. Meanwhile Razer has lost to Sonic? Lets ask Espy what kind of magical 50/50 jab pressure beat one of the best Snakes in the world.

 

[Shaya]

I somehow feel Umbreon and Shaya are connected in some way.

-

I don't get it?
I'm assuming Umbreon hates Florida? Is that it? iono
I <3 Florida though. I have an ongoing online feud with most southern florida residents

BTW DP,
you never replied to my statement that Sonic is a better punisher with power shields making him a better character at higher levels.

 

[Spelt]

I was making a gay joke!

 

[Dark.Pch]

You right. Not thinking correctly at this point. Hella tired. Well well well. I finally had someone actually take me down a game. Well played. Not bad at all. Got me there. You get respect points for this one. That was fun and worth the challenge. Finally, some competition.

I was wrong on this one. I was thinking of something else at this point. Jab cancel counters grabs when spaced.

I will say it does become a 50/50. I this case peach has to decide wether to double jab or delay a jab. Or what peach players can do if they know the player will block (cause they respecting me and know better) Peach can fair to a roll behind the opponent. And go for a mix up there. Or just fair>grab. Alot of people don't even do this. But this is an option when people gonna wait and expect atleast one jab on block. Free grab, But peach players including myself don't go for Fair/grab because as I stated in my last post, people just keep testing me with fair to Jab when you clearly can not. You have to wait. So I am not gonna risk a grab when 80% the time for years to come and go, people will try to attack/grab me after a fair.

My example involving Nicole had nothing to do with snake. Nor Do I care how good/bad this snake way. At this point that one section was not about snake. My point is people struggle all the time against a so called garbage character after all this time playing her and me dishing out the info for This character all the time. I am not a better nor smarter player than Rain. Matches I had with his MK he stuggled to beat me. One point I beat him. Ally stuggled to beat me in tournament. I played DEHF in some games, a dude that had hella peach practice and knows whats up. He stuggled to beat me. Which all the stuff you guys go on about Peach, and yet you have such a hard time just to beat me?

That just shows me people just don't think and lazy. Just depend on luck and gimmicks. Where this lead? It lead to leading a garbage character making bracket at one of the hardest brawl tournaments. A tournament of that difficulty. And 2 Peach players made bracket. people could not stop a garbage character from placing this far in a tournament such as this.

Peach is ether good or people are just dumb when it comes to brawl. Your call.

Shaya- When you stop acting so foolish then I might take you seriously and answer you.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You don't dislike me?

Have you done anything that should make me dislike you? 0_o

Just by being blunt and stuff... I dunno...

Bluntness doesn't bother me.

 

[Luco]

Don't forget the discussion of the character results. Even with the increase, there still aren't that many as many Ice Climbers players.

Love the avatar btw.

Anyway, I don't hate you either NR. I do sometimes drown in your floods of pure optimism (:3) but I dunno, maybe I just find you being nice to me or whatever when I mess up, which I guess I get less chances for in my own community because i'm enough of a clumsy-case to get on everyone's nerves after a while without really meaning to... but, at least when i'm talking to you, you seem to be straight to the point without being harsh (which actually reminds me a lot of Yink) and concise in your writing whilst maintaining a degree of 'really it's nothing personal' in there... or umm, something. But yeah, you're not a bad guy, or at least I don't think so.

@Fourstar: I can understand reasoning of not talking about Peach because she'd been discussed for ages and things are becoming taxing to read and etc but I disagree with your thoughts that we should not be talking about her because she is not a good character. If you had been here for some of the older tier lists you'd probably understand a little better but we really did used to cycle through the exact same stuff. Whether it's top tier or low tier (though top tier generally gets discussed more) doesn't really matter, IMO it's what's discussed about it. So after we talked about MK and the ban, ICs moving to second, Olimar moving down, ZSS moving up, DDD/Lucario doing something or rather, G&W probably moving up or something, Pit maybe moving up, main mid tiers switching around (Ike, DK, Sonic, Shielda/Sheik, etc.), Luigi going down, PSI kids going up, Zelda/Link/Jigglypuff for contenders at bottom... we pretty much started again and did the same stuff with the odd other character thrown in. And again, and again and again.... then we began to omit some, like some of the mid tier discussion and so on until we were pretty much left with a top tier only discussion, seeing as they were mainly the ones talked about (no grudges here, it's just something I used to notice and appreciated people for deliberately making new subjects to keep stuff fresh). Now this did bother me to some extent because it began to get stale, really fast. Saying that a character not being viable or any some such doesn't mean they shouldn't be talked about and as much as I hate to say it, I can't help but get the vibe that it's a lot easier for you to say this because you main a top tier character (just as it's much easier for ME to say what i'm saying because I main a LM char who was considered LT only a few months ago). Like, in theory it sounds all fine and dandy to look at all the issues we have with top tier (admittedly it does seem top tier gets the most complaints on it this rendition, along with the actual structure) but eventually it gets just as 'boring' as you're probably finding peach currently.

Personally, although I agree this discussion has drawn out a little, I feel slightly refreshed by the peach talk after the new tier list. A new tier list allows us to breathe new life into old discussions so i'm not actually that fussed with it atm.

 

[Espy Rose]

I've also beaten Nicole.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Peach is bad, end of story.

Next up.

Why isn't Ganon in Mid tier yet ?
He has a 0-Death on everyone with the proper reads and spacing.
:3

 

[da K.I.D.]

aside from the ganon thing, now Im curious, what other stuff can characters do that isnt humanly possible? the only thing that immediately comes to mind is DDD buffered reverse pivot grab

 

[1PokeMastr]

Frame Perfect never Drop Icies CG.
Snake infinite Tech Chase.
GaW infinite Tech Chase.

SDI'ing out of Pikachu's Dsmash for top level players.