Official SWF Tier List v8

[bubbaking]

What the heck? The DDD:Snake argument is back again?

Aerodrome, I thought you were my witness! That debate was deemed over until someone went to the extreme lengths I went to find enough evidence to counter my list of results proving that DDDs have been destroying the top Snakes in that supposedly even MU from 2007 through NOW. Even Dekillsage admitted he had nothing on that.

 

[FourStar]

What the heck? The DDD:Snake argument is back again?

Aerodrome, I thought you were my witness! That debate was deemed over until someone went to the extreme lengths I went to find enough evidence to counter my list of results proving that DDDs have been destroying the top Snakes in that supposedly even MU from 2007 through NOW. Even Dekillsage admitted he had nothing on that.

what the hell where is the arguement?

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

what the hell where is the arguement?

I think it was just some miss understanding. You see in drk peach's ramblings he asserted that peach beats SNAKE better than sonic does and then immediately went on to talk some mad smack about ddd for some reason that doesn't appear to have been related to any of the points prior or since. I believe bubba saw these two topics and couldn't logically put ddd in with the peach sonic talk and logically had to lump him in with snake.

Now after reviewing these topics myself to try and explain bubba's post I have come to the question of why on earth are we arguing relative viability of peach and sonic in terms of snake? Seriously, why?

 

[Tesh]

Well Espy was trying to prove that Sonic has better baits than Peach and...

 

[bubbaking]

You're an entire tier list discussion too late. When I feel like it, I will go find it and re-post it to re-assert DDD's dominance regarding the issue.

Edit: No Bob, look back further, at Dekillsage's (and Kyokoro's) posts. I see blatant DDD vs Snake discussion going on, not Peach or Sonic or what-have-you.

 

[FourStar]

You're an entire tier list discussion too late. When I feel like it, I will go find it and re-post it to re-assert DDD's dominance regarding the issue.

LOL dude i love your signature. and please post DDD's dominance thing i wanna see this

 

[bubbaking]

When I feel like it.

Ah, I actually read Dark.Pch's post just so I could see what Bob was talking about, and I did indeed see it. Yeah, you're right, that was random, but DDD:Snake was mentioned before that with the whole 'how good is Snake's fair' thing? Then Dark.Pch brought up DDD vs Snake in a discussion about how Peach is better than Sonic and......yeah.

 

[FourStar]

why do people compare other characters when they are talking about their own character? smh

 

[bubbaking]

There is only one time when that is okay, and that is when one char beats another char explicitly because of a very specific trait or strat and another char has an even more extreme form of said trait or can perform said strat even better than the first character.

Iiiiiiiiiin Dark.Pch's defense (why am I doing this?).....

Peach is better than sonic. Get over it espy. Apex 2012, one of the hardest tournaments. 2 Peach players made it into bracket. While only one [Sonic] did. And it was not you. And the sonic that did lost and got outplaced by a Peach.

That was probably Dark.Pch's best argument, and he should have left it at that instead of bringing up Snake and all that, since the ORIGINAL argument, I believe, was that Peach is a better character than Sonic. However, no one bothered to counter this and if Dark.Pch was arguing intelligently, I think he should have brought it back up instead of meandering off into how bad he thinks DDD is (which he's simply wrong about, but let's not get into that).

 

[Tesh]

Funny how Dark Peach didn't mention that he made bracket by narrowly beating someone Espy beats all the time anyway. Or the fact that Espy has also beaten __X__ and Illmatic.

Its not how you place, its who you beat, and if the best you can do is "Peach beat Kprime and __X__", then you might be disappointed to find out Sonic passed that milestone a long time ago. What has Peach done that Sonic didn't do better?

 

[Sunnysunny]

you might be disappointed to find out Sonic passed that milestone a long time ago.

2SLOW
STEP IT UP

 

[bubbaking]

Well, Apex 2012 WAS one of Brawl's 'harder' tournaments. A lot of good players didn't even make it out of pools (remember there were TWO ROUNDS of pools). I'm pretty sure it was also the largest APEX ever, possibly even the largest Brawl tournament the world has ever seen. Let's 'almost' forget about Dark.Pch. Both him and X got last place in bracket anyway. At least Illmatic made it out AND advanced a round by beating X. So now we have two Peaches making it into bracket against only one Sonic and one of the Peaches beat said Sonic to advance higher. Peach beating Sonic is possible evidence that Peach wins the Peach:Sonic MU. Two Peaches making it into bracket over one Sonic is possible evidence that Peach is competitively a better character, since the number of players to reach a certain section of a tourney with a character should be directly correlative to how competitively viable said character is.

It honestly doesn't matter that Espy has also beaten X and Illmatic before. What matters is what happened at that tournament, and what happened is that Espy didn't make it out of pools at APEX 2012 (if he attended). Being better in the ditto does not make one a better player than another. Another reason that doesn't matter is that it doesn't necessarily prove that Espy would have beaten Illmatic if he had faced him instead of X. What would be a better indicator of that is their respective set records. Espy may have beaten Illmatic ONCE before, but does he have a winning record against him?

What else has Peach done that Sonic didn't do better? Well, Inui made it into APEX 2013's bracket using some Peach (I saw it next to his name). IIRC, not a single Sonic made it into 2013's bracket. If anything, this also supports what I saw someone else (I forget who) said in this thread, 'Peach is a better secondary than Sonic is.'

Dangit! Why am I making Dark.Pch's arguments FOR him?

Edit: If anything, though, APEX 2013 simply proved that both characters are pretty unviable in Smash and do not matter at all. At least DDD can be a threat.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

no one has brought that argument up at all

Edit: Oh you mean, like, 5 pages ago. idk, idc either.

 

[Z'zgashi]

everyone is gonna defend their favorite character no matter what.

Yoshi and Bowser both suck massive ****.

EDIT: and on the topic of X, hes prob the best Sonic (or if not a very close second) and I play him all the time. Sonic sucks ass, like, really bad, and Peach sucks about the same amount of ass as Sonic. Peach has better rep tho (Sonic has ****loads of rep but everyone who uses him is balls) with Illmatic, Silly Kyle, etc, and when she actually has rep in a tournament she does better, so imo Peach > Sonic if only barely. Could easily see Sonic pass her up though if Sonic mains step it up (pun obv intended) and/or Peach mains slack off.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What we should discuss, is the fact I was practicing catching turnips with my little sister, and then when she throws a stitch face I derp and fail to catch it. TWICE

 

[Z'zgashi]

Why dont you go do something productive and actually fun with your sister and spend your time bonding and creating memories instead.

 

[Espy Rose]

I've never lost vs. Illmatic, and I've played him quite a handful of times.

 

[Dekillsage]

Well when it comes to vs Peach and Sonic

I personally think sonic does better than peach does overall. Imo snake vs peach is 65-35 and snake vs sonic is 6-4.
That's just from my experience fighting the characters though, maybe I don't know the snake vs sonic MU. But if I had to play illmatic and espy my chances of losing to espy would be much higher.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I personally feel that sonic is probably better than peach do to peach lacking good approaching, zoning, camping tools. Like drk peach has shown numerous times, if peach gets in and starts landing moves on shield she has very strong pressure game with strong followups for good damage. Lots of rps situations heavily weighed in her favor. The problem lies in her game outside of that. She really can't push her way in through a heavy zone defense due to low movement speed and a lack luster camping game.

Sonic on the other hand I feel isn't as safe on shield or as heavy a punisher but so much less is safe against him do to his mobility and generally faster attacks.

These two things really lead me to agree with the feeling that sonic is probably a better character but peach is a better secondary. The way peach plays leads to some odd ball winning mus where things work out really well for her but overall just doesn't have as much utility as sonic does.

 

[Dekillsage]

I got fsmashed by sonic at like 200% once and didn't die

Felt great

 

[WindMajor]

Sonic is a bad character, and the reason why he does good is because everybody else is bad.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sonic is a bad character, and the reason why he does good is because everybody else is bad.

And why does peach "do good?"

Oh wait, she doesn't.

OTOH, neither does sonic, but when you compare both characters at their peak it isn't even a contest.

 

[WindMajor]

I know, Peach does so much better.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sonic can beat MK, Falco and Snake, Peach can't.
Sonic goes about even with Marth, Peach can hardly beat him.
Both probably have about the same disadvantage against Diddy and Olimar [-1].

Sonic's better.

 

[FourStar]

Why are we even talking about peach now..... she's a decent character but not good enough to beat most of the high tiers

 

[SSS]

In general I agree with the order. While I think Zelda should switch places with Captain Falcon, and I thought Zero Suit would fly up like a Version 7 Olimar, its mostly good.

I do not like these tiers. They seem pointless. Youre already listing them in order; why the A Plus and such? It seems overly complicated,and unnecessary. I know Oli is above Marth, the order says so. I dont think the tiers need to be divided up like that. pretty soon every character will have their own tier.

Speaking of, I think its silly Ice Climbers get a tier. I understand his gap was a bit bigger. However that point system is based on votes, not merit. Just because everybody votes you in second does not make you higher of a second, it just means people agree you should be there. It doesnt magically make a larger margin. Does that make sense? Anyway. The gap between Ice Climbers and Meta Knight is much bigger than the gap between Ice Climbers and Olimar. While I do agree they are second best, they can get shut down too easily with people learning separation techniques.

Why does bottom tier have so many people and only one letter. Its like you just blew off those characters. They are important to some of us. Its like upper tiers have too much unnecessary separation and bottom doesnt have enough.

One lastish thing. I really would have liked to vote. However, I did not know we were able to. I had no knowledge of that thread or even that a new list was being made. I thought we were waiting for the matchup chart. I go on smashboards frequently to check my alerts and various Character FAQs. Im sad I couldnt vote. Could this forum send mass messages to every member when something big like this is happening? That could really help organize it and get as much participation as possible.

For the record, I think a list based purely on popular vote is silly. It should be that character communities vote on matchups, then the list is made solely of matchup data. That way we dont have Marth mains trying to figure out where the hell to put Luigi. It would also be cool to send a mass message telling everybody to vote for their characters matchups.

Anyway. In general I think the list is good. I think the formatting was pointless and the method of building it through popular vote was flawed, even though we have such a great electoral college in the BBR. Overall, though, solid work.

Im sure I will think of more to complain about.

Also sorry if this posts a bunch of times. My phone is annoying. I will delete any extra posts.

Edit: Oh lawdy lawdy fights about Peach and Sonic. I only fight a Peach, and hes better than I am, and we both agree that Sonic is terribad. Thats all I'm saying. I'm not joining this argument about garbage characters.

 

[FourStar]

i still think ZSS could quite possibly be A tier

 

[Dark.Pch]

Dark Peach what do you want from me? I said they both suck. I said my part on overall viability of each character, but on this matchup I have no strong opinion one way or the other. I'm just asking for evidence to YOUR claim. I think you don't have any, which is why we are on "last chance" 3 or something.

If you have anything that supports your claim, say it now or admit your opinion is based on fantasy.

Then here is no point for me to explain how Peach does better in this match up.

And since everyone else is making stupid jokes like children on why Sonic is a better character, just proves to me how much BS the community and BBR really are.

LOL he would defend peach untill the end of the world but there's gotta be a point where you just got to to give up defending your character is the best unless it actually is the best character

My point of the defending the character is not on a level you bring up here. She is not a high tier character. You don't even have a clue to what level I am defendning her too. Maybe if you stop assuming and trying to be funny, you would realize this. This is really getting weak up to this point.

I honestly think the most viable thing you can do as Peach is pull lots of turnips and pray.

peach is such a weird character. a lot of the peaches just pull those damn turnips.... hoping one is gonna kill smh

And this is why I have an easier time beating people who think like this. Less work for me so I can't complain.

Funny how Dark Peach didn't mention that he made bracket by narrowly beating someone Espy beats all the time anyway. Or the fact that Espy has also beaten __X__ and Illmatic.

Its not how you place, its who you beat, and if the best you can do is "Peach beat Kprime and __X__", then you might be disappointed to find out Sonic passed that milestone a long time ago. What has Peach done that Sonic didn't do better?

That does not mean anything. So what if I barely beat him. You wanna play this game? Ok

I have lil to no pika experience. There is no Pikas in my region. I went into that match up not knowing what to do. If I wanted to win I had to adapt to what Kprime does. And bait. Then see what I can punish or approach for damage. I had to figure all this out in a set if I wanted to advance into bracket. This was very nerve recking and hard. This was my last change.

Kprime has Peach experience and knows what to do. So me barely winning means nothing at all. he had the advantage knowing this match up and being a good player. while I came into this lost and had to learn within a very important set. That shows how smart I was that day to figure something out and pull off the win in a situation like this.

Also

"and if the best you can do is "Peach beat Kprime and __X__"

Seriously, knock it off. STOP. ASSUMING. I never once said that. Is this all you people are good for? Then you wonder why meta games of characters don't advance and the tier list and match up chart look like garbage. So freaking lazy. I don't care about Peach bopping the sonics at apex. I don't care about that and was not the point here.

Well when it comes to vs Peach and Sonic

I personally think sonic does better than peach does overall. Imo snake vs peach is 65-35 and snake vs sonic is 6-4.
That's just from my experience fighting the characters though, maybe I don't know the snake vs sonic MU. But if I had to play illmatic and espy my chances of losing to espy would be much higher.

Sage, i'm gonna let you hold this for one reason. Cause you know damm well I am trying to learn snake. I don't get to sit down and play these characters. 2-3 matches then someone else jumping on the sticks at the fest is not doing anything for me. I am not consistent with match ups. I play keith and he is washing me the first few games. After a while I start beating him. Cause we just play over and over. I see what I am losing too and then I can try things to fix it.

I would suggest to one day let me sit down with your snake and we do this. Cause I am the only Peach you play and the experience you been getting is weak.

I personally feel that sonic is probably better than peach do to peach lacking good approaching, zoning, camping tools. Like drk peach has shown numerous times, if peach gets in and starts landing moves on shield she has very strong pressure game with strong followups for good damage. Lots of rps situations heavily weighed in her favor. The problem lies in her game outside of that. She really can't push her way in through a heavy zone defense due to low movement speed and a lack luster camping game.

Sonic on the other hand I feel isn't as safe on shield or as heavy a punisher but so much less is safe against him do to his mobility and generally faster attacks.

These two things really lead me to agree with the feeling that sonic is probably a better character but peach is a better secondary. The way peach plays leads to some odd ball winning mus where things work out really well for her but overall just doesn't have as much utility as sonic does.

Peach has many ways to approach someone.

I can zone out alot of characters

Just correcting you here and I can name them and how. Or you can check out my Peach guide I made which explains all of this. Also some of her appoaches force a block/evasion. which is what makes things even better. Just ask if you wanna know, if not then ok. But don't assume is what I am saying.

 

[FourStar]

LOL well honestly none of care for peach that's why we kinda ignore your posts

 

[Carls493]

Somewhere within me is telling me that Sonic is just a very weird character to tier properly.

Moreso than everyone else.

 

[FourStar]

Somewhere within me is telling me that Sonic is just a very weird character to tier properly.

Moreso than everyone else.

well a lot of mid tier characters are weird. just some more than others

 

[Carls493]

That was my 2nd thought. Mid tiers in general.

Fox would probably be above that if it weren't for some of the flaws he has.

 

[Dark.Pch]

LOL well honestly none of care for peach that's why we kinda ignore your posts

There people that do care what I say. And I get kudos for it everytime. So those that don't care don't matter to me. But I am still gonna state my peace. What, 1 against 5000? This is suppose to scare me with the gang up of weak jokes and typical mindset of the community? Please. I enjoy this. And it is not gonna intimidate me. But I am still gonna correct the wrong and improve the right. And I think I am the only person that does this for their character.

People feel scared to say what they feel. Cause of what others might think or say to them. They don't challenge anything. They let the goons of the community and BBR say what they want and scared to fight back. Or some feel there status is not good enough in the smash comunity to say anything. And I honestly don't think ANYONE at all should feel that way.

It's gone to a point where I had a few people come to me to say things for them. Cause I don't care who you are, your status and how many people meat ride you. If you are wrong about my character, I am gonna correct. And peoples defense is just acting childish and getting weak lol on the internet to feel cool.

So people like you are not important to me. And if you don't like it you can kiss my bair.

 

[FourStar]

There people that do care what I say. And I get kudos for it everytime. So those that don't care don't matter to me. But I am still gonna state my peace. What, 1 against 5000? This is suppose to scare me with the gang up of weak jokes and typical mindset of the community? Please. I enjoy this. And it is not gonna intimidate me. But I am still gonna correct the wrong and improve the right. And I think I am the only person that does this for their character.

People feel scared to say what they feel. Cause of what others might think or say to them. They don't challenge anything. They let the goons of the community and BBR say what they want and scared to fight back. Or some feel there status is not good enough in the smash comunity to say anything. And I honestly don't think ANYONE at all should feel that way.

It's gone to a point where I had a few people come to me to say things for them. Cause I don't care who you are, your status and how many people meat ride you. If you are wrong about my character, I am gonna correct. And peoples defense is just acting childish and getting weak lol on the internet to feel cool.

So people like you are not important to me. And if you don't like it you can kiss my bair.

LOL well when you start winning tournaments. then i ill bow down. until then kiss my thunder

 

[Dark.Pch]

I would not even want that when I start winning. It won't mean anything. Man, being famous can sometimes be a pain.

And kiss my thunder? Come on man..really? You can do better then that.

 

[Tesh]

Dark Peach you are absurd. You still haven't told me why Peach does better than Sonic. You are like a politician deflecting and dodging questions while telling everyone that the other guy is wrong.

Don't tell me you have 0 evidence AND 0 theory to back yourself up.

 

[Jabejazz]

LOL well when you start winning tournaments. then i ill bow down. until then kiss my thunder

C'mon buddy, a character isn't worth talking about only if he wins tournaments.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I did not get into this cause you did not agree or disagree that Peach does better. Thats why I said there was no point. There is nothing to correct. Get it now. But since you are doing to know. I'm gonna make this short. I have to go to work.

I have a few good ways to get close to snake. More options to get in on snake then sonic does. I'll explain this after I get out of work ( Im gonna have to cause when I come back, I bet I am gonna see BS comments on this one as usual)

Once I am in, snake is in trouble. He can't really push buttons or try to evade. it makes it hard for him to break away.

There is a height peach can float to set off the grenades and not get hit by them. I am not use to doing this cause this is something I don't get to practice alot. along with alot of things. This is why I need to sit down with alot of characters. But dont get the chance too. Thus I am not consistent. But yea, I can set the grenade off, it eats his shield some, then I can fall in and auto cancel dair to a jab mix up. Snake can not punish this. Not gonna get to heavy on this. This is just pressure. Once I get in, Solid pressure, snake is not having a good time.

ways to get in, if snake tosses a nade, a turnip can send it right back to him if he throws it early. this is my chance to close the game a lil. When I am at a certain range, I can react to his dacus with a jab, grounded nair, or I can grab him out of it. Jab can cancel out his dash attack or hit him out of it. depends on timing. if snake decides not to do any of this, then this is a free moment for Peach to close the gap more for pressure. With a turnip or dair. If he is holding a nade to stop this, I just explained the answer to this method.


This is all I am gonna do for now, i'll finish this after I am done making some money. cause I know for a FACT, I am gonna come back and see

"LOLOLOLOLOL, such crap, snake has dfvhdsjohcdohasohca. Snake can just dshchopsdhcsxa. Peach cant kill and asdhdjocahdouo." And I'll be more then happy to end these people later.

 

[Demna]

C'mon buddy, a character isn't worth talking about only if he wins tournaments.

I highly concur. ZSS didn't win any tournaments and it was highly unexpected of Salem to win Apex 2013 with a character who doesn't usually win tournaments. Who knows, a Peach main might take Apex 2014
A character's value depends on how much the player is willing to spent effort to master that specific character.

 

[WindMajor]

gaiz

peach is like a billion spots over sonic in the tier list
appeal to that authority

because it is truth