Official SWF Tier List v8

[pidgezero_one]

AHA! a confession!!

please, that's about as shocking a confession as ricky martin coming out of the closet

 

[NH Cody]

so how about that tier list...I bet toon link should be higher...

 

[Luco]

EDIT: I fixed my post to more accurately reflect what I intend. Also note the odds of me defending you are astronomically low. And you're not even close to civil in that last post.

He's... trolling you, dude.

 

[Ghostbone]

so how about that tier list...I bet toon link should be higher...

TL should be one spot higher
But only because DDD should be 5 spots lower.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Except DDD beats pretty much everyone below him in that list.

 

[Gardex]

Except for a few exceptions, DDD just manhandles the mid tier and lower so badly, man.(+ He has some good or decent matchups in the high/top tier)

IMO he's just too destructive for mid tier(or at least stuck as the best mid tier, if anything)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Do you kids even understand tier lists

 

[Gardex]

Yes, and a character's matchup-spread is a big contributor to its potential

 

[ぱみゅ]

Instead of measuring match outcomes, tiers are more a measurement of potential of characters against the rest of the cast in a competitive, 1v1 tournament environment. It shows general strength of a character's abilities in a specific tournament environment. So yes, maybe Yoshi is a beast in teams or Ganon is REALLY good with items turned on... but this list measures somethingd different than those things.

Technically, the whole cast is taken into account, not just the Top Tier.
That would mean you're doing the list in reverse, FIRST having Top Tier characters and THEN arranging the rest of the cast.

 

[Shaya]

The Tier List is not a complete reflection of Tournament Results.
Get your gypsy communist antics outta here back to where it belongs, The United States.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I have a higher post count. everything you say is null and void

Yeah but you have two more years of posting than I do.

And only 100 more posts. And you've only received 67 likes compared to my 522. goml scrub.

Oh yeah, tier list things. Now that we're finally back on topic, I think D3 is too fat to be mid tier.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Should top tier matchups be weighted higher? If you think every mid tier event ever deserves to be **** on and disregarded, then sure, DDD for MT all the way

 

[Z'zgashi]

Top tier MUs ARE weighted higher

 

[Luco]

Should top tier matchups be weighted higher? If you think every mid tier event ever deserves to be **** on and disregarded, then sure, DDD for MT all the way

I've thought about this, and the conclusion I came to was basically that although mid tiers shouldn't be disregarded, the reason many tend to throw them away when in comparison to high or top tier match-ups is just because you see those characters more and that means more of a threat in tournaments - like, as a Lucas/Ness player, i've been to tournaments with few DKs. Never really been to one without at least a decent amount of Marth, DDD or Snake players. Although the DK MU is worse than say, the DDD MU, my tournament experience is more likely to be ended by DDD or Marth because i'm more likely to run into them and thus run into someone who really knows what they're doing, which I suppose is what the tier list is trying to reflect.

And it's for that reason that i think DDD will be in that limbo position he's been in for years now. He beats so many below him but in the end the ones that do beat him just happen to show up more.

It's debatable though.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Imo the tier list is only relevant to whatever ruleset it was written for. MK legality, legal stages, and... tier focus. I think MK banned and mid/low tier should have their own tier lists

 

[Krynxe]

Top tier MUs shouldn't be weighted higher, but they still are. That's just the nature of something as subjective as tiers, it's all put in a relative sense and we all judge things based on relevance and personal experiences - both of which are predominantly high tiers. Just like kyokoro said, taking high tiers into account is doing the process in reverse order, and defeats the purpose of trying to determine tiers if you're using already existing tiers to determine them.

I'm sure we're all familiar with the case of Puff vs Y.link in melee. Just because it's been made evident that he can do very well against her, that didn't instantly make him just up in tier. This feat did make him more "tournament viable" than many of the characters above him - including DK and Link who would never be seen in the money of a national - but that didn't make him instantly better in the grand scheme of things. (which is how a tier placing should be judged) Y.Link stayed exactly where he was, because being good against one character wasn't enough to justify the argument that he is a better character than those directly above him.

To make that analogous to brawl, you shouldn't judge how good a character is by their performance versus a small group. It's very similar to taking statistics and skewing them in your favor. Like saying "Sheik should be higher than D tier since she has positive matchups on half of C tier." While that's true, you're ignoring several characters, such as those in D- tier, and how all of them fare against each other and the entire cast.

People misunderstand tier lists as a "viable in tournament" list. That's not what they are

 

[Z'zgashi]

First off, the tier list ranks characters on VIABILITY, so your last sentence is COMPLETELY incorrect. Read this definition: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Tier_list

'In gaming, a tier list is a list that ranks all characters in order of their potential to win under tournament conditions, assuming equal skill on the part of each player.'

Even if your character has great MUs with basically every character, if they have a -3 or -4 with MK, they arent going to win a tournament, and therefore are less viable due to how prevalent MK is. Now, if they had a -3 or -4 with, say King Dedede, it wouldnt really be a big deal in the tier list since D3 isnt as popular and gets shut down himself.

Top Tier MUs matter. A lot.

 

[1PokeMastr]

No they don't.

The only Match up that matters is Jigglypuff vs Mewtwo.

Silly Yoshi mains thinking they know all.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

>mfw people think that mid tiers and top tiers should be weighed equally

 

[Ghostbone]

DDD has a worse overall spread with top/high tiers than Fox/Wolf/G&W/TL/maybe Peach do.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DDD has a worse overall spread with top/high tiers than Fox/Wolf/G&W/TL/maybe Peach do.

If matchups against high and top tiers actually matter that much then DDD's advantages over Marth and Wario as well as his even matchups against ZSS and Snake would noticeably affect the character's standing on the tier list. But as far as I can tell it really doesn't. Because first and foremost it's only a character's matchups against MK and ICs that really matter. If you don't do alright against at least one of them all hopes for a character to be viable are null by default. So it's not as much a question of how a character does against high and top tier characters in general but how he does against MK and ICs in particular. And DDD really has drawn the short straw against these two characters. But then again, so has GW and I'm not sure why you mention him in that group, especially since he loses to all other top tier characters as well.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Dedede is the gatekeeper.

He receives weekly bribes from Snake/ Marth because they can afford his price.
Which is why they're allowed to pass.

 

[Shaya]

DK players keep D3 high so that hopefully one day he'll drop into low tier because he's just that bad, right?
#LowTierTournaments

 

[Thor]

The Tier List is not a complete reflection of Tournament Results.
Get your gypsy communist antics outta here back to where it belongs, The United States.

[emphasis mine]

When the HELL did ethnic slurs become acceptable on SmashBoards!?!?!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Gypsy can also mean 'One inclined to a nomadic, unconventional way of life', fyi

 

[Tesh]

I watched SlayerZ vs DEHF twice and you can clearly see DEHF just didn't feel like beating him the last time they played. A few months ago Slayerz played DEHF, lost game 1, then pulled out all the tricks game 2 and 2 stocked DEHF. Then DEHF did textbook Falco stuff from 08-09 and demolished him.

There are a number of characters that simply don't need to even adjust to the advancements in the Peach metagame to continue whupping her ass. Kie and SlayerZ are pushing this character to the limit right now and they still have to struggle to punish 1/10 phantasms/tornadoes with a mere turnip.

Kind of sad that Kie beat Otori (top 5 MK in the world) only to lose to a Wario/ZSS in grand finals, 2 of the most doable matchups for Peach in high tier.

In any case I'd love to see Kie and SlayerZ at MLG. If those players need donations, yall should let it be known. I'm a fan and I'd love to make it happen.

 

[Thor]

Calling someone nomadic isn't an insult. Hitler didn't attempt to kill all the nomadic communists (well he tried to kill communists but not because they were nomadic, it's besides the point) - he attacked the gypsies and communists (and people who were both), and that's clearly the intent in that post, to use the word as an insult, not as descriptive. That's like saying using the word ni**** means oppressed person - maybe it did (it does/did, google it) but when you refer to a someone that way in an unambiguously insulting or derogatory way (as Shaya's post was), it obviously is a slur, not descriptive of something else. And I don't find straw man arguments very amusing when they are trying to shield deliberately hateful language.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

oh ok
get over it imo

 

[NH Cody]

Tesh: otori sandbags, and so does dehf (you figured this out)

peach is autolose vs mk. just nado

 

[Krynxe]

First off, the tier list ranks characters on VIABILITY, so your last sentence is COMPLETELY incorrect. Read this definition: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Tier_list

Your argument is "your definition of tier is wrong" and then you cite the ssbwiki like it's anywhere near a reliable/accurate source. People who edit ssbwiki pages aren't any more credible than anyone who posts in the forum, because they're all simply members of the community.

Tiers are simply a ranking, and the implication of a tier list is that you're ranking how good each character is relevant to the cast by theoretically elimination all outside factors. How viable a character is in a tournament is entirely different, because then you're looking at a series of variables including unbanned stages and the number who play select characters. One of the things that determines a characters viability in a tournament IS how good they are, which is what a tier list defines. Lets pretend that the current ruleset for tournaments had nothing but smashballs on high. Would you say sonic is instantly a better character simply due to this outside factor? No, he's the exact same character who can take better advantage of the ruleset than other characters, thus making him more viable of a character for the ruleset. Similarly, if several stages with walls were legal in the ruleset, dedede is not instantly a better character because of that, he's only more viable under those rules. He can take advantage stages more often and thus theoretically win more often, but when your opponent counter-picks you elsewhere (to a neutral, for instance) it's still the exact same matchup as it was before.

Tier lists are supposed to be as close to objective as possible, and the more variables we try to stuff into it, the more inaccurate it will become.

 

[NH Cody]

no krynxe you fell for his trap. when you see someone link ssbwiki you know they're trolling

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Actually, Sonic is the best character in the game, but he is held back by our ruleset having Smash Balls banned. Does our banning of Smash Balls make Sonic a worse character? No, he's the exact same character albeit missing a variable that supports him.

 

[Tesh]

Sonic isn't even that good with Smash balls on, you can just clash with his super form until its over.

Fox is the real beast.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Actually Wario is the best character with Smash Balls legal, but we're getting off-topic

(on topic = pointing out krynxe's absurd attempts at logic, btw)

 

[Krynxe]

grim: Okay, but then you're implying that an item is part of a character, which is wrong.

quest: I'd rather respond seriously and "risk" letting them have some sort of satisfaction than support a thread that just becomes trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls lololol 10/10 thread would reed again.

in general, people are taking my example far too literally.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

When you find a way to play Brawl without a stage, an opponent and in-game rules, inform me, then and only then can we start analyzing characters 'objectively' and 'without variables'.

In the mean time, I'll stick with a tier list that tells me how viable each character is in tournament.

 

[Krynxe]

Tier lists are theoretical assessments, and we use neutral stages as our best tool to avoid deviation. Rulesets aren't really necessary for assessments because the goal of smash is always the same: hit/kill your opponent without being hit/killed.

Here, another example from melee: For the last few years, there have been close to no top-level puff mains besides hbox. If you want to consider "tournament viability", than you could say that being good vs. puff hardly matters because there are so few of them in tournaments. Using that logic, you could say that Peach is more viable in tournament because her worst matchup isn't very prominent. So according to your idea of tier lists, Peach should be higher tier because not many people play puff, correct?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Zero Suit Samus is better with 1 stock than 3 stocks, I guess that your tier list would arbitrarily assume that she has 3 stocks?

Yes, I personally put Peach as 2nd in my Melee tier list.

 

[Krynxe]

That's a good point, brawl is interesting for the case of ZSS. Be mindful that I said "try", because that's the best we can do as a community. Judging everything assuming 3 stocks is still a good way to avoid discrepancies, because it's not only been the norm for many years, it's also a very basic and understandable ruleset that has been judged as "fair" by the community. I'm trying to express a broad idea, not one specific to smash

And okay, that's your opinion then.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Here's a more difficult question
you said that 'neutral stages' are the default stages for your tier list
what is the default match-up
or is their tier ranking based on an average of their performance in every match-up?

because trying to say that meta knight is the best character just by listing positive attributes is waaaayyy messier than "Meta Knight is the best because he performs the best in tournaments"