Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Robotic Operating Buddy

[Piford]

So what are the advantages of using the fire gyro? The endlag is horrendous, and imo one of the best things about gyro/slip gyro is the low cooldown, meaning that if your opponent immediately shields it you still won't get punished. I do think up 2 might have some use in matchups where you aren't at risk for getting edgeguarded, so you have a quick spike, but it does seem like long term the massive risk could outweight the potential benefits of a weak spike. (Especially with how insane up 3 is for recovery/aerial chases)

Why is side b 1 on all the sets? As an attack, it is way too slow/punishable to be used in a high level match, and it barely even reflects! I haven't done much testing with 3, but it seems like side 2 should be on every single set, or at least on more than one. Seems like neutral 1 is generally agreed upon as the best, and there are ppl who like all the gyros, which i guess if fine. I mostly want to push for changing the side b sets in all of these

Well Fire Gyro does much more damage than the other gyros, plus since it lacks range its much easier to pick up and use as an item. Our new sets should utilize all 3 side special options and take away some of the 2nd up special options.

I personally haven't tried wide-angle beam, but I spoke to ccst (Best ROB in Sweden) and he told me he likes to use wide-angle beam, because of more options.

EDIT:

1132
1332
1133
1233
1333
1131
1231
1122
1123
2131

I don't think the reflector arm should be used in combination with the fire gyro. The reason is that you would probably only use reflector arm against projectile spammers, which means that you would not want to have the ending lag of fire gyro while also lacking distance on it.

If we're gonna use a set with wide angle beam I think it should use fire gyro, since wide angle doesn't deal as much damage and kinda makes up for the lack of off stage pressure that fire gyro has. Also it's faster than standard robo beam, so that possibly makes up for the extra frames (it was 10 I think right) that fire gyro takes.

 

[PUK]

The fire gyro last shorter, and i find that sometime useful. It's better for offstage gimp and ledge trap too.

Also about rocket burner there is a DI dependant combo upthrow up b up air which works and kill all the cast between 60 and 80 %. It's escapable but it's quick and even if it whiff you're not in à bad position since you can FF as soon as the up air start. It could need you to dash then jump cancel up b.

 

[Oracle]

But like, how much extra damage does it do? It is so much harder to get out that it would need to do a lot more damage to be worth it

 

[Jams.]

@ Piford made a comparison of the damage of the different gyros earlier. Fire always seems to edge out slip by a few %, though it's not highly significant. Fire gyro might have situational use in matchups where the opponent doesn't have enough mobility to consistently punish its ending lag (ie. Peach maybe?).

So the damage for all the gyros are (based off several results averaged and whatnot)

Default
Release: 8
Thrown: 11
Floor: 2

Fire
Release: 9
Thrown: 13
Floor: 7

Slip
Release: 5
Thrown: 10
Floor: 5

 

[Piford]

Fire Gyro is much more useful as an item rather than the attack itself. You just use it when your opponent can't punish you. It's a bit slower and a bit stronger; it's probably more up to playstyle rather than one being absolutely better. I prefer Fire Gyro, but if you like using standard gyro as a safer move than go for it, or if you like how slip gyro trips so you can get that down-throw to up air then that works too.

 

[Oracle]

It only does 2 more damage? That seems definitely almost never worth it. Even the 5 extra on the floor hitbox doesnt seem worth it when you consider the slip gyro gives you a guaranteed followup in most cases. Ill test a bit more but being almost unuseable in neutral seems too big of a drawback to use.

 

[PUK]

Extra damage means extra shieldstun an hiistun and maybe the fire as weird properties. We shouldn't burry it.
Against sheik who can ignore the ground it could be useful even if thé end lag put us in danger. And we shouldn't put too much emphasis in the slipping. We're not Diddy and the distance we need to follow up us far shorter.

 

[Oracle]

I'm not saying we shouldn't revisit it, but the damage is paltry compared to the potential of the slip gyro and the horrendous speed of the fire gyro. It shouldn't be something that should take up more than one or two of the custom move slots

 

[Piford]

But 2 more damage over the however many times you use gyro over the course of a match adds up.

 

[Oracle]

Not really. 5 more gyro hits is only 10 more damage, and you will almost certainly get fewer gyro hits due to how easy the move is to punish. Just seems like a completely inferior option to slip and regular gyros

 

[Piford]

So these sets then

1131
1231
1132
1332
1133
1233
1333
1123
1121
2131

 

[1Miguel1]

So these sets then

1131
1231
1132
1332
1133
1233
1333
1123
1121
2131

Sure. Btw it's nice that you're active, keeping the discussion going forward. (Y)

 

[Piford]

Sure. Btw it's nice that you're active, keeping the discussion going forward. (Y)

No problem. I just want to make Sure Amazing Ampharos doesn't need to do to much reading or collecting information in a couple days. If we just have a list that he can copy past to the project it will be better.

 

[Jams.]

I'm a bit hesitant to not include any default upb sets. While it isn't obvious from this discussion, it seems like a decent number of people in the ROB Skype chat like his default upb. That being said, most of those players also prefer default gyro, so it may not be an issue considering 1111 is always available.

 

[PUK]

When you're stage spiked twice in a game by a Marth you stop to like default upB. Or i could say thunderjolt

 

[Oracle]

default up b is objectively worse than up b 3, and probably on 2 as well. It really shouldn't be on any sets at all

 

[Piford]

So does anyone have objections to the list

1131
1231
1132
1332
1133
1233
1333
1123
1121
2131

if not I'm gonna post it into main thread

 

[John12346]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
1131 1231 1132 1332 1133 1233 1333 1123 1121 2131

Not that I really needed to make this post for the R.O.B. boards, since the post directly above mine is what I used to make this set, but for the sake of covering all bases, and making a call for a double check, just in case, here's the post.

Spoiler: Notes taken during preliminary creation of sets

R.O.B.:
Pilford's proposed sets: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...c-operating-buddy.380359/page-2#post-18693809
1131 1231 1132 1332 1133 1233 1333 1123 1121 2131

 

[Steeler]

default up b is objectively worse than up b 3, and probably on 2 as well. It really shouldn't be on any sets at all

Can someone explain why this is the general consensus? Is it easy to consistently dodge off stage aerials with up3? With less fuel, any successful attack seems like a certain gimp. As long as you get sent to the upper corner (as you do with most attacks), I feel like up1 gives you more chances to recover since you can bair or use an upb spurt to make it close with plenty of fuel left just in case. Plus, what if you get read on your ledge getup and are sent off stage again? With much less fuel to spare, you could be gimped right then and there... Interested to read the ROB responses.

 

[PUK]

Default up b is slow. Really slow. And during the animation you can't airdodge so you're really vulnerable.
Up b 2 is as fast as default is slow but is predictible. It't deadly against a ganon and awesome against stage spikers.
Up b 3 give more horizontal and vertical speed, while being unpredictible. It's really easy to go under the stage and recover on the other side, or go far above the stage, or anywhere we want to go fast. It allows theoretical hoo haa from 0 to death, but i think it's a bad argument and it reduces a lot the rob's weakness to juggle.
It gives so much for a little less lasting recovery.

 

[Oracle]

Why are we adding side 3? Dont see what it adds over side 2. Same for sode 1; that move is useless against competent opponents and we shouldnt be wasting spots on it imo. Priorities should be

Neutral: 1
Side: 2
Up: 2 and 3
down: 1 and 3

This is only 4 sets, but not all of them are represented. My ideal set is 1233, but I would also recommend 1223, because the spike can be extremely useful vs characters with iffy recoveries, and they wont be edgeguarding you as mich anyways so the risk isnt as apparent.

The other move I would look at would be neutral 2. The wide angle gives you more angles/positions to threaten from, and perhaps most relevantly, the full laser travels very quickly, making it much harder to avoid than the default full laser. I can see situational use of side 1 as a hard read/big punish on landings, but it shouldn't be a focus. My set list would look like this

1233
1223
1231
1221
1133
1131
2233
2231
2223
2221

I want to reiterate that there is no reason to ever use fire gyro. The damage boost is usually under 3%, and the cooldown of the gyro shot is so much longer than either of the other gyros that you will almost never have an opportunity to use it in neutral. Frankly, I dont see default gyro having much use over trip gyro, since they have comparable speeds and damage, but one can lead to followups on stage. I only include it because I see a lot of people who like default gyro and it does have better launch angles than the slip gyro

 

[Piford]

Why are we adding side 3? Dont see what it adds over side 2. Same for sode 1; that move is useless against competent opponents and we shouldnt be wasting spots on it imo. Priorities should be

Neutral: 1
Side: 2
Up: 2 and 3
down: 1 and 3

This is only 4 sets, but not all of them are represented. My ideal set is 1233, but I would also recommend 1223, because the spike can be extremely useful vs characters with iffy recoveries, and they wont be edgeguarding you as mich anyways so the risk isnt as apparent.

The other move I would look at would be neutral 2. The wide angle gives you more angles/positions to threaten from, and perhaps most relevantly, the full laser travels very quickly, making it much harder to avoid than the default full laser. I can see situational use of side 1 as a hard read/big punish on landings, but it shouldn't be a focus. My set list would look like this

1233
1223
1231
1221
1133
1131
2233
2231
2223
2221

I want to reiterate that there is no reason to ever use fire gyro. The damage boost is usually under 3%, and the cooldown of the gyro shot is so much longer than either of the other gyros that you will almost never have an opportunity to use it in neutral. Frankly, I dont see default gyro having much use over trip gyro, since they have comparable speeds and damage, but one can lead to followups on stage. I only include it because I see a lot of people who like default gyro and it does have better launch angles than the slip gyro

Side 3 and Side 1 are much better attacking moves, so especially in matchups where reflecting doesn't matter they're good. Side 3 is essentially a safer side 1

We have Fire gyro sets because Fire Gyro is stronger (something my damage chart didn't have was the strongest hitbox since I couldn't get it consistently, I assume Fire Gyros even better than Normal but that needs looking into) , since it shoots closer its much easier to use as an item, and the extra lag is only a couple of frames. A lot of people like Fire Gyro from what I've seen (Including myself) and we should definitely include over a bunch of sets that no one is gonna use. Like having 4 wide angle beams is pointless since most people prefer default because Wide angle is weaker, the wide angle is more situational, and it takes longer to charge the stronger beams. We want to get the sets that players would want to use so if we have a bunch of "technically" best sets but players are only going to be choosing 4 of those, we might as well use the 6 sets to encompass what players actually want to utilize.

 

[Oracle]

The lag is not just a couple of frames; it is incredibly significant. The damage boost is so trivial it would never come into play in a real match. Wide angle beam has ACTUAL other uses, and you can get the in between angles; its just harder. I would really not include more than 1 or 2 fire gyro sets; wide angle beam should definitely take priority over fire gyro. I would maybe replace 2221 or 1131 with a fire gyro set

 

[Piford]

The lag is not just a couple of frames; it is incredibly significant. The damage boost is so trivial it would never come into play in a real match. Wide angle beam has ACTUAL other uses, and you can get the in between angles; its just harder. I would really not include more than 1 or 2 fire gyro sets; wide angle beam should definitely take priority over fire gyro. I would maybe replace 2221 or 1131 with a fire gyro set

The lag on fire gyro is about 10 frames and the main use for Fire Gyro isn't going to be when your opponent is close to you because you want to pick it up as an item, so you aren't going to get punished for it. That's at least how I use it. I also like to leave the gyro on me to limit my opponents approach, which is much more effective with fire since it does 5% more on the ground. If you just focus on the negative then all the moves seem bad. I mean Slip Gyro does significant less damage, the launch angle is terrible, and it only trips when it's on the ground making it extremely easy to avoid. Yet, Slip gyro still has it's uses since when you do land a trip you can convert that into a a grab. Also, the original list only had 2 sets for Fire Gyro.

I think Wide Angle beam isn't that good mainly because it does hardly any damage and the extra recharge time severely limits your zoning potential. It also might be like infinite robo beam where it's not a piecing projectile, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

I also don't think Robo rocket has much uses because it severely limits R.O.B.s mobility, making his recovery more predictable. It also isn't a very strong attack. It's also much riskier because, much like the other boosters, it doesn't regain fuel but since you can't conserve fuel with Robo Rocket R.O.B. is much easier to gimp with it.

I can see how both moves have it's uses though, but I don't think they warrant getting 4 sets each over fire gyro, especailly since when I talk to people most seem to prefer default robo, any side b, high speed burner, and any gyro. I also think @ CT Chia and @ 1Miguel1 wanted 1131 so I don't think we should remove that set.

 

[Oracle]

robo rocket gives you a ~4 frame spike. That alone is enough to put it on a good number of movesets. It does limit a few things over up3, such as the ability to savely chase at high percents off nair/dthrow and his ridiculous recovery, but in the matchups you would be using it in, your opponents wouldn't have many tools to go deep enough offstage to gimp you (ie falcon, luigi, possibly diddy). In matchups like that, you're already getting back to the stage for free anyways most of the time, so the 'risk' of up b 2 isn't very apparent. Also, generally when I play with this custom, i'll just grab the ledge and buffer a standing getup, roll, or getup attack, since all of those will let me touch the ground and regain the fuel immediately while invincible.

10 frames on the fire gyro is hugely significant; one of the main advantages of the other gyros is how easy they are to throw out in neutral, which lets rob control the pace of the game from a mid range. This advantage is completely removed when using fire gyro, as it is extremely easy to either punish when you shield/catch the gyro. The fact that the only way to correctly use the fire gyro is when you've already won neutral, forgoing a potential follow up, chase, or edgeguard for the ability to hold an item, cuts so much of the use from the other gyros, its almost like a nerfed move.

I also play competitive card games, and in deckbuilding, a card that can theoretically add a lot, but requires you to be ahead in the game to use is called a "win-more" card. In the situations where you are consistently having enough time to pull out fire gyro by already controlling neutral, you should already be in a position to win the game because you're consistently winning interactions in neutral. There aren't situations where pulling a clutch fire gyro is going to do anything more for you than the other gyros, but there are situations where a well placed slip gyro will land you a grab that leads into a kill, or a robo rocket spike gives you an edgeguard you wouldn't have otherwise had, or where an arm rotor reflection saves you from a projectile where the other side b's wouldn't. Fire gyro doesn't add anything to rob's gameplay, while simultaneously cutting out one of his best tools in neutral. This is not the type of move that warrants more than 2 sets at best.

1233
1223
1231
1221
1133
1131
2233
2231
1232
1132

I removed 2 of the wide angle sets for what would probably be the 2 most standard fire gyro sets, 1132 and 1232. Does that sound good?

 

[PUK]

I agree about rocket burner: the spike is the fastest of the game and kill at 80% more or less, while being easy to land. There is a combo which kill all the cast whith it and you can go so deep that you can wait an opening to recover. All the flaw are light and the asset are good. But fast burner has no flaws.
About the fire gyro i play Zelda too so i can tell you than the fire gyro lag is not a big deal. Most of the time you can't throw a gyro in normal. Normal gyro is punishable, and if shielded does nothing. But yeah i understand your logic, it's true than it doesn't add enough to be in the majority of the sets.
1233: yes
1223: same with rocket burner, it's a matter of feeling
1231: yes
1133: yes
1131: the most standard
2233: ok
1232: ok
1132:ok

Then i would change 1221 with 1123 and 2231 with 2323

 

[Piford]

robo rocket gives you a ~4 frame spike. That alone is enough to put it on a good number of movesets. It does limit a few things over up3, such as the ability to savely chase at high percents off nair/dthrow and his ridiculous recovery, but in the matchups you would be using it in, your opponents wouldn't have many tools to go deep enough offstage to gimp you (ie falcon, luigi, possibly diddy). In matchups like that, you're already getting back to the stage for free anyways most of the time, so the 'risk' of up b 2 isn't very apparent. Also, generally when I play with this custom, i'll just grab the ledge and buffer a standing getup, roll, or getup attack, since all of those will let me touch the ground and regain the fuel immediately while invincible.

10 frames on the fire gyro is hugely significant; one of the main advantages of the other gyros is how easy they are to throw out in neutral, which lets rob control the pace of the game from a mid range. This advantage is completely removed when using fire gyro, as it is extremely easy to either punish when you shield/catch the gyro. The fact that the only way to correctly use the fire gyro is when you've already won neutral, forgoing a potential follow up, chase, or edgeguard for the ability to hold an item, cuts so much of the use from the other gyros, its almost like a nerfed move.

I also play competitive card games, and in deckbuilding, a card that can theoretically add a lot, but requires you to be ahead in the game to use is called a "win-more" card. In the situations where you are consistently having enough time to pull out fire gyro by already controlling neutral, you should already be in a position to win the game because you're consistently winning interactions in neutral. There aren't situations where pulling a clutch fire gyro is going to do anything more for you than the other gyros, but there are situations where a well placed slip gyro will land you a grab that leads into a kill, or a robo rocket spike gives you an edgeguard you wouldn't have otherwise had, or where an arm rotor reflection saves you from a projectile where the other side b's wouldn't. Fire gyro doesn't add anything to rob's gameplay, while simultaneously cutting out one of his best tools in neutral. This is not the type of move that warrants more than 2 sets at best.

1233
1223
1231
1221
1133
1131
2233
2231
1232
1132

I removed 2 of the wide angle sets for what would probably be the 2 most standard fire gyro sets, 1132 and 1232. Does that sound good?

We decided on 1332 over 1232 for fire gyro because matchups where you want to use reflector arm are generally one where you want the range of standard gyro over Fire (and also that's my preferred set).

Also, let's discuss reflector arm a bit. To my knowledge this is how it works. It has a slightly quicker duration than default, but still more than back arm rotor. Once you start the move, there's no way to cancel it. It has a larger reflection box than standard. Each standard hit does the same damage as normal but they don't combo into each other. The final hit is the slightly increased power of back arm rotor, but the slight increase in power on both isn't really major (it's like 5% instead of 3%). You cannot angle refection like you can default. Reflection also stalls you in the air during it, and you can't move during it. Did I miss anything or get anything wrong?

Here are all the matchups where reflector arm would be possible to use

Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Diddy Kong, Link, Toon Link, Sheik, Samus, ZSS, Kirby, King DeDeDe, Fox, Falco, Pikachu, Charizard, Lucario, Ness, Game & Watch, Pit, Olimar, R.O.B., Rosalina and Luma, Palutena, Dark Pit, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Miis

Now here are all the matchups where reflecting would be superior to shielding.

Link, Toon Link, Sheik (with her shield breaking custom needles) , Samus, Lucario, Ness, Olimar, R.O.B., Duck Hunt, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Miis

Now there are some matchups where I'm not to familiar with the characters customs so I might not have included them, or were unsure exactly how much lag or shield damage the projectiles did. There's also the Villager matchup where reflecting something can amazing, or it can give the villager an amazing projectile.

I also thought it reflected stronger than default, but testing against Wii Fit Trainer's Sun Salutation both reflected at a 1.6 multiplier (both got 29%).

So it's a good move, but should we really give it 7 spots to it when it's only useful in around 15/51 matchups? I defintely say swap 1232 for 1332 and I still say we should probably give 1 more set to default or back arm rotor.

 

[Oracle]

There are real uses for reflection, waaay more than the standard arm rotor or backwards arm rotor, in all of the matchups you listed, which is actually the majority of the cast. 3 and 1 for side only add very specific uses, which are often done better by other moves. side 2 needs to be on the majority of the sets because it is by far the most useful. Side 1 has a small handful of uses as a hard punish, but you would never pick a set off the ability to make a hard read, so it should only be on a few. Side 3 has a kind of quick, but still unsafe hitbox, without reflection, that doesn't do much damage or kill. That one should really not be included at all.

 

[Piford]

There are real uses for reflection, waaay more than the standard arm rotor or backwards arm rotor, in all of the matchups you listed, which is actually the majority of the cast. 3 and 1 for side only add very specific uses, which are often done better by other moves. side 2 needs to be on the majority of the sets because it is by far the most useful. Side 1 has a small handful of uses as a hard punish, but you would never pick a set off the ability to make a hard read, so it should only be on a few. Side 3 has a kind of quick, but still unsafe hitbox, without reflection, that doesn't do much damage or kill. That one should really not be included at all.

Side 3 actually can reflect the window is just smaller since the move is quicker, but it's not like I was going to use it in a matchup where reflection was going to be needed anyways. Also a nice thing is that it turns characters around, so catching them using their double jump with it means its easier to ledge guard. It also can be used off stage as another attacking option, since it's more powerful than fair and has about the same startup (I couldn't measure exactly). Reflection can be used off stage for reflecting but as an attack its lackluster, and you basically can't use default offstage.

But how is reflecting that important on the characters outside of the 15 (and maybe a few more like ZSS since I'm not sure about the properties of her paralyzer). Most of the characters listed had pretty weak (things like Mario's Fire Balls and Game and Watch's Bacon), where shielding would be a better option, to not needed refection (Like Kirby's Sword and Yoshi's stars). One thing I would like to know is for Diddy Kong would reflector be better or default since you can't rally follow up on the banana if reflected and both peanuts and bananas can just be caught. Would reflection still be better for the banana?


I also think Side 3 is great for the Rosalina matchup since it can quickly kill luma. Getting the full move on Luma can kill from over half of Smashville or half of FD, and only hitting the end hit launches luma half the length of Smashville. Also reflection isn't really needed at all in the Rosalina matchup since Luma eats up shooting star bit easily and she can only use shooting star bit when Luma is around. I still like to use it in all matchups besides the ones I listed for reflected. We should definitely use 1332 over 1232 even if side 3 gets no other set.

 

[Zethoro]

The fire gyro last shorter, and i find that sometime useful. It's better for offstage gimp and ledge trap too.

Also about rocket burner there is a DI dependant combo upthrow up b up air which works and kill all the cast between 60 and 80 %. It's escapable but it's quick and even if it whiff you're not in à bad position since you can FF as soon as the up air start. It could need you to dash then jump cancel up b.

At around 80% too you can do Dthrow to DAir.
I don't have Up3 unlocked so I wouldn't know, but Rocket's pretty awesome except for the fuel thing.

 

[PUK]

Side 2 can catch someone during the one frame of vulnerability of ledge options. And if not tech it can put the opponent in great place for a lol Dair. But it's a little tricky though.
Also about Dthrow to up air, it's one of our best combo but d throw is a multi hit move, with poor hitstun, while up throw is a 12% single shot.
It's like Diddy HH -> you should mix your combo, and i have more confidence in a combo which work as far as i know than in a 0 death thing nobody ever done in real match. Come on, u can kill bowser at 80% without rage, it's awesome. You know who can kill reliably bowser at 80% without rage: Zelda, bowser, Marth, ganon and ike. We will be ganon with a great recovery, 2 of the best projectile, one reflector, and average mobility.
Rob top 5.

 

[CT Chia]

Sorry I haven't been around for a bit, I need to catch up on this with the deadline approaching soon. I'll read up soon. I'm personally looking for sets that have High Speed Burner no matter what, then with Reflector Arm if they have a projectile, or a different Side B if they don't. I'm still learning what's good about Back Arm Rotor now, so between that and default if my opponent doesn't have a projectile. Has anyone labbed up Back Arm Rotor a lot yet? As for Laser and Gyro, I know we talked a lot about especially Gyro before, but I'm still very much in favor for default Laser and default Gyro.

Do we have a current list of custom sets we're tentatively settling on? I noticed other forums were starting to gather theres with the project leader.

 

[Piford]

Sorry I haven't been around for a bit, I need to catch up on this with the deadline approaching soon. I'll read up soon. I'm personally looking for sets that have High Speed Burner no matter what, then with Reflector Arm if they have a projectile, or a different Side B if they don't. I'm still learning what's good about Back Arm Rotor now, so between that and default if my opponent doesn't have a projectile. Has anyone labbed up Back Arm Rotor a lot yet? As for Laser and Gyro, I know we talked a lot about especially Gyro before, but I'm still very much in favor for default Laser and default Gyro.

Do we have a current list of custom sets we're tentatively settling on? I noticed other forums were starting to gather theres with the project leader.

This is what it was at the 10-day check in

1131
1231
1132
1332
1133
1233
1333
1123
1121
2131

and this is what @ Oracle wants it

1233
1223
1231
1221
1133
1131
2233
2231
2223
2221

I still like the original list better, although I can see why might want more reflector sets. Possibly switching out 1333, 1123, and/or 1121 for more reflector sets.

 

[CT Chia]

I think if you're facing off against a projectile user (well, against most), Reflector Arm is practically a necessity. Having a good amount of sets for it is good to have. However the original list has 2 Reflector Arm sets, and Oracle's list has 8 lol, no real medium there. I'm interested that not a single list Oracle has uses Back Arm Rotor. Did we reach a consensus that it's completely bad for stuff?

Personally my most used sets atm are 1131 and 1231, which are in both lists thankfully lol.

I'm just wondering if Back Arm Rotor > Arm Rotor in some situations or not. The only matchup I see Arm Rotor as a necessity in so far is the Rosalina matchup. Outside of that I don't know much about Back Arm Rotor really.

I do want to experiment with Robo Rocket a bit if the spike is as good as people are saying, but I know so little about the move atm that I'll just wait to see what sets use it atm then try to practice those.

 

[Piford]

I think if you're facing off against a projectile user (well, against most), Reflector Arm is practically a necessity. Having a good amount of sets for it is good to have. However the original list has 2 Reflector Arm sets, and Oracle's list has 8 lol, no real medium there. I'm interested that not a single list Oracle has uses Back Arm Rotor. Did we reach a consensus that it's completely bad for stuff?

Personally my most used sets atm are 1131 and 1231, which are in both lists thankfully lol.

I'm just wondering if Back Arm Rotor > Arm Rotor in some situations or not. The only matchup I see Arm Rotor as a necessity in so far is the Rosalina matchup. Outside of that I don't know much about Back Arm Rotor really.

I actually like Back Arm Rotor the best for various reasons. I can use it off stage to attack, I like how it turns the opponent around, I like how it's just the ending hit so my opponent can't escape it, I like how it doesn't last as long, ect.

Why should default be used over back in the rosalina matchup? Back Arm Rotor launches Luma about half the length of FD with no prior damage on Luma, meaning you can use it to knock out luma from anywhere on the stage from the correct side. It's also less likely to get punish for using it if Rosalina dodges it and you just hit Luma.

I definitely think Back Arm Rotor deserves at least 1 set and it should be 1332 since you generally don't want want to use Fire Gyro with Reflector Arm anyways.

The two sets I want to use are 1332 and 1233 for most matchups.

 

[CT Chia]

Default Arm Rotor against Rosalina knocks Luma back like the same distance you had mentioned with Back Arm Rotor, except with Default Arm Rotor, since it's a longer attack you can just start it at any point, and rip through like half of the stage covering rolls, other defensive maneuvers, etc. It doesn't have to be timed. You just want Luma dead, so you let it rip lol. You'll likely be punished by Rosa for it, but the single punishment from a non-Luma'd Rosa is way worth it for a practically guaranteed kill on Rosa. Otherwise Default is still nice for mixups on players that don't know the matchup with ending it at different times, moving around, etc. Still an overall poor move (except on Luma), which is why I was looking into BAR. But that one instance, damn is it helpful lol.

 

[Forsage]

I'm going to apologize right now for never bothering to input anything on this thread before now, but seeing as I'm entering more tournaments and I'm already rather sick of adding my set with a 3DS every time, I feel it's necessary.
Wide-angle beam needs to be much more strongly considered. Just to put some stats out:

Normal Laser:
Close Hitbox: 7
Slight Charge: 4
Full Charge: 10
Slight Charge Recharge Time: ~2.5 seconds.
Full Charge Recharge Time: ~13 seconds.

Wide Angle Laser:
Close Hitbox: 7
Slight Charge: 3
Full Charge: 8
Slight Charge Recharge Time: ~2 seconds.
Full Charge Recharge Time: ~13 seconds.

The data is found by me, and I'd like to point out that those are very rough recharge times based on memory of how long I had to count for. However, the recharge time is noticeably faster with the wide angle laser. Not by much, but it's the difference between being able to spam it and having to wait around with what feels like one less option.

Now, both lasers are good. However, the wide angle laser allows a much better degree of control. I've personally found that it's a far better option and allows for a fair amount of mixups. For instance, after a down-throw up-air it's possible to snipe an opponent for a bit of extra damage with this laser. Alternatively, you can up-B directly at them to hit them off the top again if they expect that and airdodge. Additionally, if an up-throw doesn't quite kill, you can snipe with the laser to kill off the top. All this, and the addition of a faster recharge time, for the price of 1-2 percent less damage per shot. I consider it to be very much worth it, and I believe if you take the time to learn the angles you will too.

However, since this is coming in so late, I'm not asking for a drastic change of the project. Rather, I'd just like to request the addition of the set 2133 and 2233 to the project. I believe slip gyro to have a better use than the default gyro simply due to the tripping ability more than making up for the slight loss of damage. We've all seen what Diddy Kong can get off of his banana, and a similar tool for R.O.B. can make a huge difference in a match. Up-B 3 is for obvious reasons. And then I enjoy Side-B 1 since it covers essentially all options if an opponent is slightly low on shield, as it can shield poke, cover rolls, and most attacks. However, for the matches where a reflector is more important, Side-B 2 can be a more useful option. I personally don't consider Side-B 3 to be an option as there is typically a better punish available.

Thanks for considering this, if you'd like me to elaborate on anything just let me know.

 

[Steeler]

How consistent is the default arm rotor at linking into the last hit? I get that it's super unsafe on healthy shields and very punishable but it is a very meaty attack that can catch vulnerable landings and attempted dodges...

edit: ^ that's how i feel about arm rotor too, if their shield isn't close to full you will poke, so it's a great move at shutting down defensive options in the event that you've worn the shield down... fire gyro seems to do quite a bit of shield damage when thrown...

 

[Syde7]

If I'm not mistaken, regarding the up+B2 (the one giant push that spikes), you are unable to use it a 2nd time when hanging from the ledge unless you're hit or land. It might not be that big of a deal considering the altered ledge mechanics/losing invincibility after regrabbing the ledge... but I still find a ledgedrop->jump->laser/gyro->Up+B to the ledge a good get-up option/mixup, and (again, unless I'm mistaken about this up+B) you lose that get-up option. To my knowledge, its the only up+B (default or custom) in the game that behaves this way. Again, I could be mistaken as its been awhile since I've really experimented with that particular up+B, as I typically run with up+B 3.

Also, isn't your ability to bounce the laser severely limited w/ the wide angle beam? That might seem a trivial, inconsistent thing to trade off but on stages with jagged terrain (Halberd, Lylat, etc) it can be a solid option if you know your ricochet angles.

Any love for Fast Laser (the really spammable one?) at all?

My apologies if some of this has been addressed/mentioned... im on mobile so its a bit hard/time consuming to scroll through the entirety of the convo.

 

[Oracle]

Ok, so out of rob's special moves, the highest priority ones should be up 3, and side 2, since those are generally the best in almost all matchups. the best gyro is Probably tied between trip and neutral, and aside from those there are niche uses for fire gyro, robo rocket, backwards arm rotor, and wide angle laser. as such, the priority sets are

1231
1233

And the secondary sets with the other moves should be permutations of these sets. For example, the wide angle laser sets would be

2231
2233

This avoids having overly specific sets full of niche moves. I'll list out all of the sets for the niche moves

Back arm rotor

1331
1333

Robo rocket

1221
1223

Fire gyro

1232

Arm rotor

1131
1133

Which leaves us with 11 sets. what we need to ask is out of these

, a. Which sets would be used the least
b. Are there any sets with multiple niche moves would have more use than what is on currently? (Ie 1332 being uuseful over 1232 since you wouldnt really want fire gyro in mus where you need to reflect)