Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Robotic Operating Buddy

[Amazing Ampharos]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

 

[dettadeus]

I think Quick Burner (Upb2 i think, whichever one makes it more like brawl's upb) and Slip Gyro (Downb3? the gyro that makes people trip) are the usual ROB customs from what I've seen.

Also hi, I'm that ROB you keep beating at kansas brawl tournaments.

 

[Byxis]

Isn't Flame Gyro used sometimes as well? That thing can rack up damage stupid fast if you're good with chucking it.

 

[popsofctown]

Flame Gyro and Slip Gyro are kinda the same thing. I think Flame Gyro is better because it you get a bonus effect against enemies whose feet aren't touching the ground, and ones too distant to capitalize on trips. They both outclass standard Gyro by a mile because decreased distance is a -plus-, you can pick it up more easily.

I think the single-jump burner is the best by a longshot, not because it's best for recovering (it's not), but because you can pretend your sonic and use it onstage for followups. Not as good as Sonic, but still added value to your upthrows and stuff and that outweighs the small bit of the time you fail a recovery.

Side B2 is a really good reflector. Side B 3 seems like the best attack if you aren't looking to reflect anything (it still has a couple frames of reflection at the start though!). Side B1 seems to be a mixture that is always outclassed by one of the extremes.

The custom lasers are just awful.

 

[AJ34]

I prefer using everything standard besides Robo Rocket and either Fire or Slip Gyro.

 

[zephyrnereus]

I'll make a quick list of sets that are pretty useful. also, I'm placing gyro moves as X because they're all useful in different ways.

113X (the standard replace up b with the better up b)
123X (same as first with reflector arm)
112X (changing the recovery for the boost jump)

replace X with 2/3 and we got 6 premade movesets already here.

also as a quick side note, I am against using 122X because this greatly hinders recovery. side-B 2 eats up all your vertical and horizontal momentum before forcing you to fall, so this can eat up a jump that you dearly need if you're going with up-B 2.

I think the single-jump burner is the best by a longshot, not because it's best for recovering (it's not), but because you can pretend your sonic and use it onstage for followups. Not as good as Sonic, but still added value to your upthrows and stuff and that outweighs the small bit of the time you fail a recovery.

Side B2 is a really good reflector. Side B 3 seems like the best attack if you aren't looking to reflect anything (it still has a couple frames of reflection at the start though!). Side B1 seems to be a mixture that is always outclassed by one of the extremes.

The custom lasers are just awful.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. up-B 2 is probably the worst because of the fact that you only have one charge. what's worse is that to use the sweet spike it has, you have to be either touching the enemy or right under him, and if the opponent has a fast move to knock your jump out, you're pretty much dead. I tried using it in a tournament, ended up getting Naired just as I was about to spike him. maybe if getting hit refreshed the move then it would be good or even the best. I have to admit though, onstage, it's pretty good if you know how to follow it.

as for side-B 3, I don't think it's better than the others. at first I thought it might be the worst of the three, but after a bit of testing, I could see it slightly useful in edgeguarding. ROB is in dire need of a quick bair, and this seems like a decent alternative. reflector on the other hand, is godlike when used against projectile users. (I won a tournament match against a villager by reflecting his slingshot at point blank. that was so clutch.) its also a good edgegaurd tool of its own due to the fact that it hovers for a moment, and it destroys tether recoveries... too bad almost no one uses them anymore.

as for lasers, they're not that bad. neutral-B 2 can be useful against characters that camp in the air once you get used to the extended angle. 3 is pretty bad though because of no rebounds, but its like having a big falco laser, so you can throw in 2 or 3 lasers if they try to get in.

 

[popsofctown]

Up B2 is the worst for recovery, without a doubt. And sometimes it doesn't feel good to fail recoveries. But the way Smash 4's mechanics works, it's hard and rare to get knocked so far horizontally with so little vertical that you die due to failed recovery, especially with Rob's low fall speed. So when you balance that against onstage follow up potential, even if it's somewhat modest in benefit, it's worthwhile. Superior recovery will only make you survive maybe 15damage points longer at the most, and sometimes what actually kills you will be a vertical KO or horizontal ringout which negates even those 15 damage points. On the other hand the onstage followups will probably average you 10 pts of damage per stock, and that applies towards any kind of KO, whether you use those 10 pts of damage for vertical KO, failed recover KO, or forceful ringout KO.

At a bare minimum there seems very little sense in taking anything but Up b2 against characters you KNOW are going to kill you with the blast zone, like Ness.

That's my position.

I don't think anything about the merit of the move has to do with the spike.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Back from Reddit, and ROB got something out of it.

I'd say his best moveset is 1112

because too many of his customs have large downsides that take away the playstyle r.o.b. is meant to have. up 2 and 3 take away the insane recovery he has. side 2 and 3 take away his best damage-racking move. standard 2 and 3 make it deal less damage/take longer to charge and the upsides are letting it have more angles/never use stage 1 weak laser. neither of those upsides are good for what the laser is supposed to be in his playstyle! the only good custom moves are down 2/3 because they don't change his playstyle at all, and more damage is better, so custom 2 is better.

5 upvotes

 

[doodbroh]

I think Quick Burner (Upb2 i think, whichever one makes it more like brawl's upb) and Slip Gyro (Downb3? the gyro that makes people trip) are the usual ROB customs from what I've seen.

Also hi, I'm that ROB you keep beating at kansas brawl tournaments.

^ I second this.
idk the notation for it, but i personally find quick burner and slip top to be his two best custom moves, and i always use them in conjunction. quick burner gives rob more combo/kill options and slip top gives him funny setups. i know some people disagree, but i find them both to be really strong customs and prefer them to his default moveset. his side-b and neutral-b customs, on the other hand, are pretty unimpressive and that seems to be the general consensus.

 

[Piford]

So the current sets are

1132
1122
1112
1133
1123
1222

I'm thinking that 1332 and 1333 should be options because backward arm rotor seems like a safer version of arm rotor that would be better in some situations. Unless there's something I'm missing about backward arm rotor. For the last 2 sets, I'm thinking that some people might prefer infinite robo beam because it doesn't need to recharge so 3132 might be a good set. For the last one, it could be 3133, 1322, or 1232.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Everything I've seen with R.O.B. in action has convinced me that 1133 is his general purpose best set but that the project in general did a pretty good job on the first go-round of covering good stuff for R.O.B.. What Piford is saying makes a lot of sense to me as a way forward; do any of the other R.O.B. players have contrary opinions?

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

@ Amazing Ampharos *raises hand*

I think Wide Angle Beam is being slept on a bit. It gives R.O.B. a beam that charges and travels more quickly with little differences in starting and ending lag that's much better at sniping/harassing than the regular laser, especially taking into account its significant bounce on surfaces. R.O.B. can use Wide Angle Beam to chip away at off-stage opponents with whom he doesn't want his inconvenient, large hurtbox entangled (such as against Link or Ness). Wide Angle Beam's greater flexibility also makes it ideal for doubles.

Reflector Arm is good for guarding the ledge and of course reflecting projectiles, and in my opinion it makes the Mega Man, Yoshi, and Samus matchups much easier (a little easier in Mega Man's case, since his customs work around Reflector Arm, and R.O.B. still has no answer to Mega Man's pressure with jab, f-tilt, and n-air). It also helps R.O.B. deal with harassment from Ness's PK Thunder, a move that juggles R.O.B. more easily than other characters since his mobility is poor and again, his hurtbox is large. The attack is much faster than Arm Rotor and is a much more reliable reflector.

I should see more 22XXs suggested. That said, I think his top 3 sets are:

1) 1223 (Robo Beam, Reflector Arm, Slip Gyro, High Speed Burner)
2) 2223 (Wide Angle Beam, Reflector Arm, Slip Gyro, High Speed Burner)
3) 1233 (Robo Beam, Reflector Arm, Fire Gyro, High Speed Burner)

Robo Rocket and Backwards Arm Rotor should never be considered. Backwards Arm Rotor unfortunately reward you when you perform a successful ledge trump as theorized, and it's about as easy to punish as the standard Arm Rotor.

Fire Gyro is 100% bad news for Peach, Kirby, and Jigglypuff. The extra startup sucks, but R.O.B. appreciates greater damage output, which Fire Gyro delivers quite well.

I understand regular Arm Rotor can be used to snag poor landings, but keep in mind that R.O.B.'s head is still vulnerable to several attacks and that it's very difficult to consistently space the move properly for said punishes. In many cases R.O.B. is better off grabbing out of shield. Against characters that lack projectiles, Reflector Arm is preferred for when your opponent manages to grab your Gyro.

I personally prefer all of R.O.B.'s regular special moves, but in a Customs environment, the sets I mentioned are optimal.

 

[Piford]

@ Amazing Ampharos *raises hand*

I think Wide Angle Beam is being slept on a bit. It gives R.O.B. a beam that charges and travels more quickly with little differences in starting and ending lag that's much better at sniping/harassing than the regular laser, especially taking into account its significant bounce on surfaces. R.O.B. can use Wide Angle Beam to chip away at off-stage opponents with whom he doesn't want his inconvenient, large hurtbox entangled (such as against Link or Ness). Wide Angle Beam's greater flexibility also makes it ideal for doubles.

Reflector Arm is good for guarding the ledge and of course reflecting projectiles, and in my opinion it makes the Mega Man, Yoshi, and Samus matchups much easier (a little easier in Mega Man's case, since his customs work around Reflector Arm, and R.O.B. still has no answer to Mega Man's pressure with jab, f-tilt, and n-air). It also helps R.O.B. deal with harassment from Ness's PK Thunder, a move that juggles R.O.B. more easily than other characters since his mobility is poor and again, his hurtbox is large. The attack is much faster than Arm Rotor and is a much more reliable reflector.

I should see more 22XXs suggested. That said, I think his top 3 sets are:

1) 1223 (Robo Beam, Reflector Arm, Slip Gyro, High Speed Burner)
2) 2223 (Wide Angle Beam, Reflector Arm, Slip Gyro, High Speed Burner)
3) 1233 (Robo Beam, Reflector Arm, Fire Gyro, High Speed Burner)

Robo Rocket and Backwards Arm Rotor should never be considered. Backwards Arm Rotor unfortunately reward you when you perform a successful ledge trump as theorized, and it's about as easy to punish as the standard Arm Rotor.

Fire Gyro is 100% bad news for Peach, Kirby, and Jigglypuff. The extra startup sucks, but R.O.B. appreciates greater damage output, which Fire Gyro delivers quite well.

I understand regular Arm Rotor can be used to snag poor landings, but keep in mind that R.O.B.'s head is still vulnerable to several attacks and that it's very difficult to consistently space the move properly for said punishes. In many cases R.O.B. is better off grabbing out of shield. Against characters that lack projectiles, Reflector Arm is preferred for when your opponent manages to grab your Gyro.

I personally prefer all of R.O.B.'s regular special moves, but in a Customs environment, the sets I mentioned are optimal.

You got your numbers messed up. Up special is the third number number not fourth and Fire gyro is the second not the third custom, so the sets you suggested are 1233, 2233, and 1232.

I don't think reflector arm is worth it most of the time because it's rare that R.O.B. wants to reflect projectiles and it's extreme punishable. Tie that in with how the other variants also reflect and I see no need to give anymore than 2 sets. Switching 1222 for 1232 might be good though.

I don't know why so many sets contain Robo Rocket, but since they do I assume people think it's a good move and I'm not seeing the value in it.

Wide angle beam seems mostly useless. It's so rare that you need a larger angle, and it's not like its certain matchups that need it. You won't know going into a battle that wide is going to be useful, so it's always a better option to pick standard (or infinite if you like that).

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

You got your numbers messed up. Up special is the third number number not fourth and Fire gyro is the second not the third custom, so the sets you suggested are 1233, 2233, and 1232.

I don't think reflector arm is worth it most of the time because it's rare that R.O.B. wants to reflect projectiles and it's extreme punishable. Tie that in with how the other variants also reflect and I see no need to give anymore than 2 sets. Switching 1222 for 1232 might be good though.

I don't know why so many sets contain Robo Rocket, but since they do I assume people think it's a good move and I'm not seeing the value in it.

Wide angle beam seems mostly useless. It's so rare that you need a larger angle, and it's not like its certain matchups that need it. You won't know going into a battle that wide is going to be useful, so it's always a better option to pick standard (or infinite if you like that).

Sorry, was never given details on how to organize them.

Arm Rotor is a terrible reflector, and Backwards Arm Rotor can't reflect at all. Arm Rotor's reflect window is very small, with the rest of the attack being hitboxes on R.O.B.'s arms and the hurtbox on his torso. Reflector Arm is a viable alternative in numerous scenarios, all of which are tough MUs for R.O.B. Arm Rotor is a much easier move to punish than Reflector Arm because it has more cool down, and Reflector Arm isn't supposed to be used to attack the opponent, but to reflect their projectiles or the Gyro they happen to pick up.

Robo Rocket is not a good move, if R.O.B. is hit out of it it's curtains because he doesn't regain fuel. Additionally R.O.B.'s poor air mobility makes it so he has to recover low all the time, and is thus more susceptible to gimps. The meteor hitbox on the move isn't worth it, you're better off getting meteors with d-air.

Wide Angle Beam only seems "mostly useless" because you don't use it (you're a Shulk main?), and it's not "rare" that you need a larger angle when the standard angles from Robo Beam can be accessed if the control stick is tilted properly (not hard to get used to), plus R.O.B. needs more ways to tack on damage off-stage without worrying about getting stage spiked or whatever. Standard Robo Beam is definitely better but Wide Angle is not "useless" by any means, especially since the move is faster in terms of traveling and charging speed.

The fact that you have so many sets with Robo Rocket shows you didn't really test R.O.B.'s customs, at least not against other characters.

 

[Piford]

Sorry, was never given details on how to organize them.

Arm Rotor is a terrible reflector, and Backwards Arm Rotor can't reflect at all. Arm Rotor's reflect window is very small, with the rest of the attack being hitboxes on R.O.B.'s arms and the hurtbox on his torso. Reflector Arm is a viable alternative in numerous scenarios, all of which are tough MUs for R.O.B. Arm Rotor is a much easier move to punish than Reflector Arm because it has more cool down, and Reflector Arm isn't supposed to be used to attack the opponent, but to reflect their projectiles or the Gyro they happen to pick up.

Robo Rocket is not a good move, if R.O.B. is hit out of it it's curtains because he doesn't regain fuel. Additionally R.O.B.'s poor air mobility makes it so he has to recover low all the time, and is thus more susceptible to gimps. The meteor hitbox on the move isn't worth it, you're better off getting meteors with d-air.

Wide Angle Beam only seems "mostly useless" because you don't use it (you're a Shulk main?), and it's not "rare" that you need a larger angle when the standard angles from Robo Beam can be accessed if the control stick is tilted properly (not hard to get used to), plus R.O.B. needs more ways to tack on damage off-stage without worrying about getting stage spiked or whatever. Standard Robo Beam is definitely better but Wide Angle is not "useless" by any means, especially since the move is faster in terms of traveling and charging speed.

The fact that you have so many sets with Robo Rocket shows you didn't really test R.O.B.'s customs, at least not against other characters.

I dual main R.O.B. and Shulk (kinda necessary to dual main at least for the Villager Matchup, but I also love the two characters).

The first 6 sets in my list are what's already on the custom move project, which is why there are so many Robo Rockets. I assume it's good in some matchups where the opponent doesn't necessarily have the best off stage game, but they have a solid spike. I am not exactly sure, but I do know that it deserves the two sets it has. There's a benefit to being his fastest Up special and being the only one with a hitbox. It's actually not a bad spike.

So I did testing with reflector arm, and it seems not as good in most situations. Of course it has the problem that most reflectors have in the first place, they're extremely punishable. The move is punishable on hit if you don't reflect something first off, but that's minor. So if I use it to reflect something, my opponent can just shield the reflected object. If I had shielded it instead, I could possibly punish the move the used or at least do something. I can understand that the reflecting one maybe more useful in a handful of matchups, but I don't see it being useful in most. It still currently has a set, and changing it to 1232/1233 wouldn't be a bad idea.

Also, Backwards Arm does reflect projectiles, and it actually is the fastest option for reflecting. The only thing Reflection arm has over it is the larger reflection box.

After even more testing, I'm still gonna say Wide-angle beam is just not as good of a move. Loosing that extra bit of percentage every single time isn't worth the extra angle. Its too situational, and normal robo beam is a safer option and should picked over it. The reason I say infinite Robo Beam deserves a set, but not Wide angle is because I find there are more situation that I need to use robo beam but it hasn't recharges than I find that I need a wider angle. However, there is an extra slot on my list that was a toss up for a bunch of sets, so using it for wide-angle beam is a possibility. So how about this list

1132
1122
1112
1133
1123
1232
1332
1333
2233
3132

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

I dual main R.O.B. and Shulk (kinda necessary to dual main at least for the Villager Matchup, but I also love the two characters).

The first 6 sets in my list are what's already on the custom move project, which is why there are so many Robo Rockets. I assume it's good in some matchups where the opponent doesn't necessarily have the best off stage game, but they have a solid spike. I am not exactly sure, but I do know that it deserves the two sets it has. There's a benefit to being his fastest Up special and being the only one with a hitbox. It's actually not a bad spike.

So I did testing with reflector arm, and it seems not as good in most situations. Of course it has the problem that most reflectors have in the first place, they're extremely punishable. The move is punishable on hit if you don't reflect something first off, but that's minor. So if I use it to reflect something, my opponent can just shield the reflected object. If I had shielded it instead, I could possibly punish the move the used or at least do something. I can understand that the reflecting one maybe more useful in a handful of matchups, but I don't see it being useful in most. It still currently has a set, and changing it to 1232/1233 wouldn't be a bad idea.

Also, Backwards Arm does reflect projectiles, and it actually is the fastest option for reflecting. The only thing Reflection arm has over it is the larger reflection box.

After even more testing, I'm still gonna say Wide-angle beam is just not as good of a move. Loosing that extra bit of percentage every single time isn't worth the extra angle. Its too situational, and normal robo beam is a safer option and should picked over it. The reason I say infinite Robo Beam deserves a set, but not Wide angle is because I find there are more situation that I need to use robo beam but it hasn't recharges than I find that I need a wider angle. However, there is an extra slot on my list that was a toss up for a bunch of sets, so using it for wide-angle beam is a possibility. So how about this list

1132
1122
1112
1133
1123
1232
1332
1333
2233
3132

I can agree to those sets. I was doing some more testing myself and Robo Rocket has some uses against Villager and other characters who are more confident off-stage. Getting to the ledge quickly is one of R.O.B.'s weaknesses, I'd probably see some more use in Robo Rocket if you could angle it like Roy's Blazer, since it being so linear is a huge drawback.

I would say Reflector Arm is better for moves like Sun Salutation, Samus's Charge Shot, or Mega Man's f-smash, but if you time the other reflectors well they work fine too. I maybe overrated Reflector Arm; it only really helps against Yoshi's Eggs and its only edge on the others is its safety (which I think still makes it a viable defensive tool). Punishment is something each side special variant suffers with. I do see Backward Arm Rotor being useful off-stage since it turns foes around, limiting their edgeguard-breaking options, and even though ledge trumping doesn't work, it is another fast aerial outside of f-air or u-air R.O.B. can use.

Infinite Robo Beam does cover those situations you mentioned but imo that all depends on how well you're zoning out your opponent or how accurate you are with the beam. If he's in your face constantly, not having a charge does suck, but the extra startup on Infinite Beam makes it so that it only patches that problem slightly. It also doesn't bounce off surfaces, and R.O.B. can't snipe opponents waiting at the ledge with it as easily (though Robo Rocket fixes that).

Wide Angle Beam's worse damage is another issue, and after testing, I found out that the full charge beam actually takes longer than the one for regular Robo Beam. I still think the faster traveling and initial charge speed is nice for catching Rosalina, Fox, and other characters able to nullify R.O.B.'s tools off guard but that's about it, and the Fire Gyro can relieve the issues with damage well (the lag trade off is reasonable).

 

[Piford]

I can agree to those sets. I was doing some more testing myself and Robo Rocket has some uses against Villager and other characters who are more confident off-stage. Getting to the ledge quickly is one of R.O.B.'s weaknesses, I'd probably see some more use in Robo Rocket if you could angle it like Roy's Blazer, since it being so linear is a huge drawback.

I would say Reflector Arm is better for moves like Sun Salutation, Samus's Charge Shot, or Mega Man's f-smash, but if you time the other reflectors well they work fine too. I maybe overrated Reflector Arm; it only really helps against Yoshi's Eggs and its only edge on the others is its safety (which I think still makes it a viable defensive tool). Punishment is something each side special variant suffers with. I do see Backward Arm Rotor being useful off-stage since it turns foes around, limiting their edgeguard-breaking options, and even though ledge trumping doesn't work, it is another fast aerial outside of f-air or u-air R.O.B. can use.

Infinite Robo Beam does cover those situations you mentioned but imo that all depends on how well you're zoning out your opponent or how accurate you are with the beam. If he's in your face constantly, not having a charge does suck, but the extra startup on Infinite Beam makes it so that it only patches that problem slightly. It also doesn't bounce off surfaces, and R.O.B. can't snipe opponents waiting at the ledge with it as easily (though Robo Rocket fixes that).

Wide Angle Beam's worse damage is another issue, and after testing, I found out that the full charge beam actually takes longer than the one for regular Robo Beam. I still think the faster traveling and initial charge speed is nice for catching Rosalina, Fox, and other characters able to nullify R.O.B.'s tools off guard but that's about it, and the Fire Gyro can relieve the issues with damage well (the lag trade off is reasonable).

So do you think 2233 should be 2232? Also is 1112 better or 1113? I know Slip gyro generally wants to be paired with High-speed burner, which is why I assume they opted to give fire gyro to the 111X set.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

So do you think 2233 should be 2232? Also is 1112 better or 1113? I know Slip gyro generally wants to be paired with High-speed burner, which is why I assume they opted to give fire gyro to the 111X set.

Yes, since the lack of damage on Wide Angle Beam needs to be patched up by Fire Gyro. I think 1113 is better because the added startup for Fire Gyro hinders R.O.B.'s keepaway game, and he has an easier time controlling space with the Slip Gyro because of its potential to trip, so opponents are inclined to stay away from it rather than try to grab it.

 

[Piford]

So the list is

1132
1122
1113
1133
1123
1232
1332
1333
2232
3132

unless anyone else has any input.

 

[CT Chia]

Can someone post each of ROB's numbers here? I'd like to weigh in on the custom ROB sets this time around

I personally use up to two customs. I always use High Speed Burner for Up B regardless. It's the saving grace of his customs so he can actually recover, and gives him interesting and fun chasing options in the air. Then if my opponent has a projectile, I use Reflector Arm (I think it's called), otherwise I use default. Been testing Slip Gyro, but don't know too much about it yet unfortunately. But High Speed Burner and Reflector Arm are the GOAT, and default Arm is better if your opponent has nothing to reflect imo.

 

[Piford]

Can someone post each of ROB's numbers here? I'd like to weigh in on the custom ROB sets this time around

I personally use up to two customs. I always use High Speed Burner for Up B regardless. It's the saving grace of his customs so he can actually recover, and gives him interesting and fun chasing options in the air. Then if my opponent has a projectile, I use Reflector Arm (I think it's called), otherwise I use default. Been testing Slip Gyro, but don't know too much about it yet unfortunately. But High Speed Burner and Reflector Arm are the GOAT, and default Arm is better if your opponent has nothing to reflect imo.

Neutral 2 is wide angle beam
Neutral 3 is infinite robo beam
Side 2 is reflector arm
Side 3 is back arm rotor
Up 2 is Robo Rocket
Up 3 is High Speed Burner
Down 2 is Fire Gyro
Down 3 is Slip Gyro

So based on the current sets listed above, you have 1132 for High-burner pus fire gyro, 1133 for slip gyro, and 1232 for reflector arm.

 

[Mister Eric]

When I do decide to use customs, I use 1113. If I had to say which custom set is the best, it would be this one.
I actually question whether 1111 is better than any setup. Seriously.
As much as I love his 1113 up b, I still think it limits the control of his mobility.
Still on the fence...

 

[CT Chia]

And the order is Neutral Side Up Down correct?

Why are people preferring fire gyro at all? What have you guys found out about Slip Gyro? Based on some limited research to me, it seems like Slip Gyro goes the same distance if used in the air, does the same damage regardless, though awkward ground slidy thing, but makes people trip if they hit the gyro when it's n the ground. Def a good upgrade or what are the real drawbacks?

Also has anyone found a good use for his Back Arm Rotor? I honestly don't know what it really does exactly, I couldn't find a good use for it.

 

[1Miguel1]

I honestly prefer the standard gyro. The fire gyro has too much ending lag and the slip gyro doesn't hurt the opponent too much (have to say I haven't used the slip gyro too much though).

My prefered set is currently 1131.
Why do we have to abandon all sets that include the standard gyro?

 

[Piford]

And the order is Neutral Side Up Down correct?

Why are people preferring fire gyro at all? What have you guys found out about Slip Gyro? Based on some limited research to me, it seems like Slip Gyro goes the same distance if used in the air, does the same damage regardless, though awkward ground slidy thing, but makes people trip if they hit the gyro when it's n the ground. Def a good upgrade or what are the real drawbacks?

Also has anyone found a good use for his Back Arm Rotor? I honestly don't know what it really does exactly, I couldn't find a good use for it.

Slip Gyro is weaker than normal Gyro on the initial launch, and therefore much weaker than Fire Gyro. Both are great options though.

Backward Arm Rotor is much shorter than normal Arm rotor and therefore less punishable. The last hit of backward arm rotor is also a bit stronger than standard.

I honestly prefer the standard gyro. The fire gyro has too much ending lag and the slip gyro doesn't hurt the opponent too much (have to say I haven't used the slip gyro too much though).

My prefered set is currently 1131.
Why do we have to abandon all sets that include the standard gyro?

Because the drawbacks of the other two gyros are definitely worth the benefits they bring. Default is okay, but Fire and Slip are great.

 

[1Miguel1]

IMO default gyro is the best when you first release it, while fire gyro is the best standalone item.

 

[CT Chia]

I thought Slip Gyro was the same power on release. In that case, Default Gyro is the way to go, I'm definitely with you on that Miguel.

That's interesting about Back Arm Rotor, but it's still going to be punishable. What kind of damage does it do? I feel like both back arm and default will be punishable, but default offers a little more mixup due to the length of the move, can possibly break shields, and you can move during it. It's also the preferred side B of choice vs Rosalina, since you can just use it at any point slamming right into them and it makes Luma fly away in free fall, basically OHKO'ing it at any time in exchange for a small punish from Rosa (worth it).

It's clear that there's a heavy preference of using High Speed Burner (I still don't get why people wouldn't use it lol), but then with those listed sets we're forced to use Slip or Fire Gyro, which idk, I really think are all subpar to default gyro. Do we know the frame data on the two other gyros yet? Even though fire may not fly as far on release, if the frame data is identical for more power it might be better.

And if anyone wants to reflect anything, Reflect Arm all the way, it's reflect box is what side B should be lol.

 

[Piford]

I thought Slip Gyro was the same power on release. In that case, Default Gyro is the way to go, I'm definitely with you on that Miguel.

That's interesting about Back Arm Rotor, but it's still going to be punishable. What kind of damage does it do? I feel like both back arm and default will be punishable, but default offers a little more mixup due to the length of the move, can possibly break shields, and you can move during it. It's also the preferred side B of choice vs Rosalina, since you can just use it at any point slamming right into them and it makes Luma fly away in free fall, basically OHKO'ing it at any time in exchange for a small punish from Rosa (worth it).

It's clear that there's a heavy preference of using High Speed Burner (I still don't get why people wouldn't use it lol), but then with those listed sets we're forced to use Slip or Fire Gyro, which idk, I really think are all subpar to default gyro. Do we know the frame data on the two other gyros yet? Even though fire may not fly as far on release, if the frame data is identical for more power it might be better.

And if anyone wants to reflect anything, Reflect Arm all the way, it's reflect box is what side B should be lol.

So the damage for all the gyros are (based off several results averaged and whatnot)

Default
Release: 8
Thrown: 11
Floor: 2

Fire
Release: 9
Thrown: 13
Floor: 7

Slip
Release: 5
Thrown: 10
Floor: 5

From what I measured, they all have the exact same ending lag.

So I think I stand by my statement that you never want to use default as you either want the better damage of fire, or the tripping of slip.

For the different side bs, this is much harder to measure. For damage, they all seem to do 2 with the main hit, default does 3 with the end hit and Backwards does 4. Backwards seems to have a bit of a bigger hitbox and does more knockback, but that's just eyeing it as I didn't have a good way to measure it. Backwards does turn the opponents around with the final hit similar to Mario's cape.

We have 10 sets to work with though, and if no one really wants to use Robo Rocket we could remove a couple of it's sets in favor of default Gyro.

 

[CT Chia]

Do all three gyros spawn the gyro as fast? Also what's great about default is the distance it launches out at, which is a lot further than fire. Its great off stage pressure and pressure from afar since its faster than laser. I'd like to test more, but default gyro def has uses.

 

[Piford]

Do all three gyros spawn the gyro as fast? Also what's great about default is the distance it launches out at, which is a lot further than fire. Its great off stage pressure and pressure from afar since its faster than laser. I'd like to test more, but default gyro def has uses.

They all have the exact same frame data. And further testing sees Back armrotor with a slightly larger hitbox than default, although not by much
Do you think any of the up specials should be used over High-speed burner?
Also, Do you think we should spread the custom sets across all three down bs and side bs like this, with one last set for whichever move deserves use?

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[1Miguel1]

They all have the exact same frame data. And further testing sees Back armrotor with a slightly larger hitbox than default, although not by much
Do you think any of the up specials should be used over High-speed burner?
Also, Do you think we should spread the custom sets across all three down bs and side bs like this, with one last set for whichever move deserves use?

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I basically agree with these sets. If anyone prefers something other than 1X3X, please speak up.

From what I measured, they all have the exact same ending lag.

So I think I stand by my statement that you never want to use default as you either want the better damage of fire, or the tripping of slip.

I'm pretty sure the fire gyro has more ending lag when you first release it.

 

[Piford]

I'm pretty sure the fire gyro has more ending lag when you first release it.

If it has more ending lag its not more than a frame or two. I went into training mode on 1/4 speed and they were near identical. Something I have heard but forgot to check is that Fire Gyro has a longer animation if you try to fire a gyro that's already out.

 

[CT Chia]

All of those sets only use High Speed Burner, which while I would personally never not use, I know some people out there prefer to not use it... For some reason lol

 

[Piford]

All of those sets only use High Speed Burner, which while I would personally never not use, I know some people out there prefer to not use it... For some reason lol

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So should it look like that to include Robo Rocket?

 

[1Miguel1]

If it has more ending lag its not more than a frame or two. I went into training mode on 1/4 speed and they were near identical. Something I have heard but forgot to check is that Fire Gyro has a longer animation if you try to fire a gyro that's already out.

I made a video to prove my point: http://youtu.be/o_TLjmkIciA

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So should it look like that to include Robo Rocket?

Yes, something like this. We have to keep in mind that we shouldn't prioritize sets with 2 rare moves. (XX2X should be considered rare, and should only go with other popular moves, hope you get my point lol)

 

[Piford]

I made a video to prove my point: http://youtu.be/o_TLjmkIciA
Yes, something like this. We have to keep in mind that we shouldn't prioritize sets with 2 rare moves. (XX2X should be considered rare, and should only go with other popular moves, hope you get my point lol)

Yeah I guess my timer wasn't precise enough to detect that lag (I am only one person after all), but that lag seems so small that I still think Fire is better.

 

[Jams.]

I disagree with that sentiment. The ending lag in fire gyro is hugely noticeable when I played with it, and reminds me a lot of Project M gyro. It's a much larger commitment to make in neutral against faster characters (though I can see it being very good versus slower characters). I feel like fire gyro needs to be used more carefully as a high damage punish tool, than as a move that can be thrown out frequently in neutral to chip or zone.

Also, what are the reasons for taking Robo Rocket? The lack of versatility is pretty big, and the follow-up potential from high speed burner is probably better because you can follow your opponent's movement. I would prefer sets taking standard robo burner over sets with Robo Rocket (1113 and 1112), though I believe they're both inferior to high speed burner.

Does infinite robo beam actually help in the Villager matchup? It might be worth taking for that alone. I feel like ROB's laser customs might have situational uses, but I haven't tried them enough to say anything concrete. They might actually both suck. >_>

 

[Piford]

I disagree with that sentiment. The ending lag in fire gyro is hugely noticeable when I played with it, and reminds me a lot of Project M gyro. It's a much larger commitment to make in neutral against faster characters (though I can see it being very good versus slower characters). I feel like fire gyro needs to be used more carefully as a high damage punish tool, than as a move that can be thrown out frequently in neutral to chip or zone.

Also, what are the reasons for taking Robo Rocket? The lack of versatility is pretty big, and the follow-up potential from high speed burner is probably better because you can follow your opponent's movement. I would prefer sets taking standard robo burner over sets with Robo Rocket (1113 and 1112), though I believe they're both inferior to high speed burner.

Does infinite robo beam actually help in the Villager matchup? It might be worth taking for that alone. I feel like ROB's laser customs might have situational uses, but I haven't tried them enough to say anything concrete. They might actually both suck. >_>

I actually did more testing with infinite robo beam, and it just sucks. I thought it was good enough before but its so weak that I rather just wait for the recharge. Also, I don't think it helps with Villager at all, especially since Villager should be pocketing gyro over Robo beam.

 

[1Miguel1]

I personally haven't tried wide-angle beam, but I spoke to ccst (Best ROB in Sweden) and he told me he likes to use wide-angle beam, because of more options.

EDIT:

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I don't think the reflector arm should be used in combination with the fire gyro. The reason is that you would probably only use reflector arm against projectile spammers, which means that you would not want to have the ending lag of fire gyro while also lacking distance on it.

 

[Oracle]

So what are the advantages of using the fire gyro? The endlag is horrendous, and imo one of the best things about gyro/slip gyro is the low cooldown, meaning that if your opponent immediately shields it you still won't get punished. I do think up 2 might have some use in matchups where you aren't at risk for getting edgeguarded, so you have a quick spike, but it does seem like long term the massive risk could outweight the potential benefits of a weak spike. (Especially with how insane up 3 is for recovery/aerial chases)

Why is side b 1 on all the sets? As an attack, it is way too slow/punishable to be used in a high level match, and it barely even reflects! I haven't done much testing with 3, but it seems like side 2 should be on every single set, or at least on more than one. Seems like neutral 1 is generally agreed upon as the best, and there are ppl who like all the gyros, which i guess if fine. I mostly want to push for changing the side b sets in all of these